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AT&T Buckhorn Mountain, CO

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  • Albert LaFrance
    I ve posted an early photo of the AT&T microwave station on Buckhorn Mountain in Colorado, showing the delay-lens antennas. This station was part of the
    Message 1 of 25 , Jan 28, 2002
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      I've posted an early photo of the AT&T microwave station on Buckhorn
      Mountain in Colorado, showing the delay-lens antennas. This station was
      part of the company's first transcontinental radio route; it linked
      Bloomfield, CO and Crow Creek Hill, WY:

      http://www19.addr.com/~longline/places-routes/Buckhorn-Mtn/index.html

      Albert
    • Albert LaFrance
      I ve just uploaded new historical text and a 1975 photo, both contributed by Jim Hebbeln, for this station on AT&T s first transcontinental microwave route:
      Message 2 of 25 , May 26, 2003
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        I've just uploaded new historical text and a 1975 photo, both contributed by
        Jim Hebbeln, for this station on AT&T's first transcontinental microwave
        route:
        http://longlines.addr.com/places-routes/Buckhorn-Mtn/index.html

        Albert
      • ozob99
        ... contributed by ... microwave ... This was on of the stations requiring a snow cat to get to in winter.
        Message 3 of 25 , May 28, 2003
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          --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, "Albert LaFrance"
          <albertjlafrance@c...> wrote:
          > I've just uploaded new historical text and a 1975 photo, both
          contributed by
          > Jim Hebbeln, for this station on AT&T's first transcontinental
          microwave
          > route:
          > http://longlines.addr.com/places-routes/Buckhorn-Mtn/index.html
          >
          > Albert

          This was on of the stations requiring a snow cat to get to in winter.
        • Eric F. Richards
          ... I burned a couple rolls of film up there around March. Eventually I ll get them developed... Eric -- Eric F. Richards efricha@dimensional.com The weird
          Message 4 of 25 , May 28, 2003
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            At 03:21 PM 5/28/2003 +0000, ozob99 wrote:
            >--- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, "Albert LaFrance"
            ><albertjlafrance@c...> wrote:
            > > I've just uploaded new historical text and a 1975 photo, both
            >contributed by
            > > Jim Hebbeln, for this station on AT&T's first transcontinental
            >microwave
            > > route:
            > > http://longlines.addr.com/places-routes/Buckhorn-Mtn/index.html
            > >
            > > Albert
            >
            >This was on of the stations requiring a snow cat to get to in winter.

            I burned a couple rolls of film up there around March. Eventually I'll
            get them developed...

            Eric

            --
            Eric F. Richards
            efricha@...
            "The weird part is that I can feel productive even when I'm doomed."
          • Mark Foster
            AT&T High Seas (WOM) radio transmitters were located at Pensucco, FL. Does anyone know where the RX site was?
            Message 5 of 25 , Nov 3, 2003
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              AT&T High Seas (WOM) radio transmitters were located at
              Pensucco, FL. Does anyone know where the
              RX site was?
            • Albert LaFrance
              A 1979 route map shows radio installations named Ft. Lauderdale OS [overseas?] and Florida City, in addition to Pennsuco. Florida City is shown with routes
              Message 6 of 25 , Nov 3, 2003
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                A 1979 route map shows radio installations named Ft. Lauderdale OS
                [overseas?] and Florida City, in addition to Pennsuco. Florida City is
                shown with routes labeled "OH [over-the-horizon?] Cuba" and "OH Nassau".
                Both stations are roughly equidistant from Pennsuco, so I couldn't even
                guess which one might be the RX site.

                It's really unfortunate that those stations are being scrapped - they're a
                valuable part of telecom and maritime history. I wonder if any
                documentation is left behind and if there's any chance of rescuing it.

                Albert

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Mark Foster" <mfoster@...>
                To: <coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 7:10 AM
                Subject: [coldwarcomms] WOM Pensucco, FL


                > AT&T High Seas (WOM) radio transmitters were located at
                > Pensucco, FL. Does anyone know where the
                > RX site was?
              • David Lesher
                ... Florida City was the topo link to Cuba until Andrew took down not it, but the relay tower north of it that fed the site. Since Bell South was wetting her
                Message 7 of 25 , Nov 3, 2003
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                  Speaking on Deep Background, the Press Secretary whispered:
                  >
                  > A 1979 route map shows radio installations named Ft. Lauderdale OS
                  > [overseas?] and Florida City, in addition to Pennsuco. Florida City is
                  > shown with routes labeled "OH [over-the-horizon?] Cuba" and "OH Nassau".
                  > Both stations are roughly equidistant from Pennsuco, so I couldn't even
                  > guess which one might be the RX site.

                  Florida City was the topo link to Cuba until Andrew took down
                  not it, but the relay tower north of it that fed the site.

                  Since Bell South was wetting her panties to junk it anyhow,
                  [it FUBARed AMPS service in the Keys but good...] She futzed
                  around & delayed fixing it until finally some complicated deal
                  with CAF etc. was reached that allowed use of the in-place fiber.




                  --
                  A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@...
                  & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
                  Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
                  is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
                • ozob99
                  ... Besides a 4A switch i seem 2 recall a HF radio function at or near Ojus,FL.
                  Message 8 of 25 , Nov 3, 2003
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                    --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, Mark Foster <mfoster@c...> wrote:
                    > AT&T High Seas (WOM) radio transmitters were located at
                    > Pensucco, FL. Does anyone know where the
                    > RX site was?

                    Besides a 4A switch i seem 2 recall a HF radio function at or near
                    Ojus,FL.
                  • Sam Etler
                    ... There s a 4ESS there now. OJUSFLTL03T. Really early installation, May 1978. sam
                    Message 9 of 25 , Nov 3, 2003
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                      > Besides a 4A switch i seem 2 recall a HF radio function at or near
                      > Ojus,FL.

                      There's a 4ESS there now. OJUSFLTL03T. Really early installation,
                      May 1978.

                      sam
                    • Mark J Cuccia
                      ... There were two 4A machines at OJUSFLTL before the 4E... Nov.1972 OJUSFLTL01T (a class-3 primary switch in the hierarchical toll network, Recorded
                      Message 10 of 25 , Nov 3, 2003
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                        On Mon, 3 Nov 2003, Sam Etler wrote:

                        > (someone else wrote):

                        >> Besides a 4A switch i seem 2 recall a HF radio function at or near
                        >> Ojus,FL.

                        > There's a 4ESS there now. OJUSFLTL03T. Really early installation,
                        > May 1978.
                        > sam


                        There were two 4A machines at OJUSFLTL before the 4E...

                        Nov.1972
                        OJUSFLTL01T
                        (a "class-3 primary" switch in the hierarchical toll network,
                        Recorded announcement trailer-ID 305-9, circa mid-1970s)
                        Known also as "Ojus-One"

                        Nov.1975
                        OJUSFLTL02T
                        (a "class-4 plain toll" switch in the toll network's hierarchy,
                        recorded announcement trailer-ID 305-11, circa mid-1970s...
                        I wonder if this might have been maintained by Southern Bell instead
                        of AT&T Long Lines)
                        Known also as "Ojus-Two"


                        As Sam mentions, the 4E was installed in 1978. It has been known as
                        "Ojus-Three", even though its Network Switch Number (since 1988) and
                        now Recorded Announcement Trailer (since 1997) is 066-T. I guess it was
                        305-2T in the 1980s/90s era though. I will still have to do some digging
                        to see what 4A it replaced, my guess would be the 1972-installed Ojus-1,
                        305-9. The 4E is AT&T's (esp. since 1984), and *NOT* So.Bell, even though
                        they probably did use it for regional tandeming in the late 1970s and into
                        the 80s. And I am guessing that Ojus-1 (4A) was AT&T Long Lines, while
                        Ojus-2 (4A) was Southern Bell's.


                        I would have to check some other documents which *MIGHT* have some of that
                        information though.....

                        Mark J. Cuccia
                        mcuccia (at) tulane (dot) edu
                        New Orleans LA CSA
                      • Mark Foster
                        ... Ojus was the TX transmit site before it moved to Pensucco.
                        Message 11 of 25 , Nov 3, 2003
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                          At 03:10 AM 11/4/2003 +0000, you wrote:

                          >Besides a 4A switch i seem 2 recall a HF radio function at or near
                          >Ojus,FL.

                          Ojus was the TX transmit site before it moved to Pensucco.
                        • Albert LaFrance
                          ... From: ozob99 To: Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 10:10 PM Subject: [coldwarcomms] Re: WOM Pensucco, FL
                          Message 12 of 25 , Nov 3, 2003
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                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "ozob99" <ozob99@...>
                            To: <coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 10:10 PM
                            Subject: [coldwarcomms] Re: WOM Pensucco, FL


                            > Besides a 4A switch i seem 2 recall a HF radio function at or near
                            > Ojus,FL.

                            You're right - I just looked in the Long Lines publication "Our Company and
                            How it Operates" (1960 edition), which states that the Florida overseas
                            locations are a control center and receiving station at Fort Lauderdale and
                            a transmitting station at Ojus, with an overseas switchboard in Miami.
                            These stations provided service to Cuba, the Bahamas, other Caribbean
                            islands, and Central America.

                            The other HF locations named in the book are:

                            Transmitting stations at Lawrenceville and Ocean Gate, NJ, and Dixon, CA;
                            Receiving stations at Netcong and Manahawkin, NJ, and Point Reyes, CA.

                            The control center and switchboard for the NJ stations was in New York City,
                            with some circuits terminating at White Plains. They served Great Britain,
                            Iceland, most countries of Europe, several Near East countries, South
                            Africa, Ascension Island, Bermuda, Puerto Rico, Panama, and most counties of
                            South America.

                            The CA stations had their control center and switchboard at Oakland. They
                            served Guam, New Zealand, Australia, Japan, and other countries of the Far
                            East

                            Albert
                          • hooligan@aol.com
                            My friend Brian tends to have visited most of the coastal marine HF sites over the years, and here s his response to my asking him if he knew where the WOM
                            Message 13 of 25 , Nov 4, 2003
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                              My friend Brian tends to have visited most of the coastal marine HF sites
                              over the years, and here's his response to my asking him if he knew where the WOM
                              receive site was.


                              ***********************************************
                              Yes -- it was at the same location as where the operators were in Fort
                              Lauderdale.

                              The location is on the NE corner of Rt. 441 and Broward Ave. I've got notes
                              and pictures on the site packed in the basement, but pretty sure about the
                              Broward cross street. Look at the vacant space at 26--08.5 X 80--11.8. It was
                              basically across the street from Lauderhill Mall and there is a large apartment
                              complex between the site and the actual corner above, so it was more and more
                              a noisy site as the years went on. They had some dipoles, some verticals (some
                              of which were broadband log type) and a large array of horizontal wire logs
                              spread around in a circle to cover all the desired directions. They were the
                              TCI type in that catalog I gave you. I have a polar plot chart of all their
                              antenna directions

                              BTW, have you been by TCI's headquarters out your way? I noticed some
                              antennas set up in their lot when I was out there one time. It was generally in the
                              area of the old KFS TX location, but you can find it easily from the catalog
                              address. I think they do some of their testing out near the old KGEI transmitter
                              site too.

                              WOM's TX site is on Krome Avenue north of Rt. 41 on the east side. Approx.
                              25--51.9 X 80--28.6. Everything was still in place when I was by there about 3
                              years ago. I haven't been by the RX site for some time.


                              ***********************************************


                              Tim
                              San Mateo, California


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • ozob99
                              ... near ... installation, ... was ... digging ... Ojus-1, ... though ... and into ... while ... As I recall, all of the 4A s were joint owned By LL & the
                              Message 14 of 25 , Nov 4, 2003
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                                --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, Mark J Cuccia <mcuccia@t...>
                                wrote:
                                > On Mon, 3 Nov 2003, Sam Etler wrote:
                                >
                                > > (someone else wrote):
                                >
                                > >> Besides a 4A switch i seem 2 recall a HF radio function at or
                                near
                                > >> Ojus,FL.
                                >
                                > > There's a 4ESS there now. OJUSFLTL03T. Really early
                                installation,
                                > > May 1978.
                                > > sam
                                >
                                >
                                > There were two 4A machines at OJUSFLTL before the 4E...
                                >
                                > Nov.1972
                                > OJUSFLTL01T
                                > (a "class-3 primary" switch in the hierarchical toll network,
                                > Recorded announcement trailer-ID 305-9, circa mid-1970s)
                                > Known also as "Ojus-One"
                                >
                                > Nov.1975
                                > OJUSFLTL02T
                                > (a "class-4 plain toll" switch in the toll network's hierarchy,
                                > recorded announcement trailer-ID 305-11, circa mid-1970s...
                                > I wonder if this might have been maintained by Southern Bell instead
                                > of AT&T Long Lines)
                                > Known also as "Ojus-Two"
                                >
                                >
                                > As Sam mentions, the 4E was installed in 1978. It has been known as
                                > "Ojus-Three", even though its Network Switch Number (since 1988) and
                                > now Recorded Announcement Trailer (since 1997) is 066-T. I guess it
                                was
                                > 305-2T in the 1980s/90s era though. I will still have to do some
                                digging
                                > to see what 4A it replaced, my guess would be the 1972-installed
                                Ojus-1,
                                > 305-9. The 4E is AT&T's (esp. since 1984), and *NOT* So.Bell, even
                                though
                                > they probably did use it for regional tandeming in the late 1970s
                                and into
                                > the 80s. And I am guessing that Ojus-1 (4A) was AT&T Long Lines,
                                while
                                > Ojus-2 (4A) was Southern Bell's.

                                As I recall, all of the 4A's were joint owned By LL & the local Bell
                                Co. since the traffic switched was inter-state and intra-state ,with
                                the majority being LL interstate usage;however since the local
                                companies had the switching expertise in those days ,the maintenance
                                of the 4A was usually done by the local company even though LL might
                                have as much as 75% ownership....this led to the perception that the
                                4A was "their machine".

                                As the 4ESS replaced the 4A's, LL became the maintaining company in
                                most cases.
                              • Mark J Cuccia
                                ... I ll have to look at some old Distance Dialing Co-Ordinating Handbooks I have from the 1970s, which give info as to whether the BOC or AT&T-LL was
                                Message 15 of 25 , Nov 4, 2003
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                                  On Tue, 4 Nov 2003, ozob99 wrote:

                                  > As I recall, all of the 4A's were joint owned by LL & the local Bell
                                  > Co. since the traffic switched was inter-state and intra-state, with
                                  > the majority being LL interstate usage; however since the local
                                  > companies had the switching expertise in those days, the maintenance
                                  > of the 4A was usually done by the local company even though LL might
                                  > have as much as 75% ownership....this led to the perception that the
                                  > 4A was "their machine".
                                  >
                                  > As the 4ESS replaced the 4A's, LL became the maintaining company in
                                  > most cases.


                                  I'll have to look at some old "Distance Dialing Co-Ordinating Handbooks"
                                  I have from the 1970s, which give info as to whether the BOC or AT&T-LL
                                  was respondible for this or that "duty/function" of each individual 4A.
                                  I think that there were SOME 4A/4M machines that truly were "LL-owned",
                                  such as the Class-One Regionals. True, the BOCs might have had intra-state
                                  or "short-haul same-homing region interstate" traffic switched thru them,
                                  but my guess is that all (US-based) ten Cl.1 Regionals were 100% LL-owned.

                                  I also think that some of the individual Cl.4 "ordinary" toll switches,
                                  even if 4As, might have been 100% BOC-owned, even though there might have
                                  been some inter-state traffic "tandem'd thru" them at times.

                                  There was also a *LOCAL* 4A tandem in Dallas TX in the 1970s era, which
                                  actually handled tandeming of LOCAL-ONLY traffic in the Dallas Metro area!

                                  As for the 4Es, the vast bulk of them were AT&T Communications' as of
                                  1984, but *some* of the pre-1984 4Es did become the responsibility of the
                                  divested BOCs. Even some non-Bell (indep) LECs have owned 4Es, both pre
                                  and post divestiture. And there are some "new" (post-divestiture) 4E
                                  installations owned by LECs (BOC and independent) as well.

                                  In the late 1960s and into the 1970s, there were some "independent" area
                                  4As as well. These *DID* have the 'X' for the building-code-identifier in
                                  the CLLI code, since the 4A was in a non-Bell building, but I'm not sure
                                  if AT&T-LL had any "ownership" of those 4As. There was one such non-Bell
                                  4A machine in Honolulu (Hawaii) as well (GT&E's Hawaiian Telephone
                                  Company). And Canada (Trans Canada Telephone System), both "Bell Canada"
                                  or Bell Canada "affiliate" (Maritimes Provinces of NB, NS/PEI, NF/LB,
                                  although only Halifax NS actually had a 4A even though the "Maritimes"
                                  have always been part of the Bell Canada "family") as well as other TCTS
                                  *NON* Bell-Canada telcos (province government held AGT, SaskTel,
                                  Manitoba Tel System; and GTE's BCTel) also had 4A machines in the 60s/70s.
                                  I know that Canada's *NORTHERN* Electric made those 4As used up in Canada.
                                  But I wonder if the US-based non-Bell telcos actually got their 4As from
                                  Northern Electric (of Canada) or if US-based *WESTERN* Electric made their
                                  4As and shipped them, contracted for them, etc....

                                  Here is a list of those "other" *NON* US-Bell-System/AT&T 4As:

                                  Bell Canada:
                                  June 1955 TOROON0101T Toronto 1 ON (Cl.2)
                                  May 1956 MTRLPQ0201T Montreal 1 PQ (Cl.1)
                                  Nov 1972 TOROON1103T Toronto 3 ON (Cl.4)
                                  Apr 1973 OTWAON1002T Ottawa 2 ON (Cl.3)

                                  Other TCTS in Canada:
                                  Feb 1965 WNPGMB0101T Winnipeg MB (Cl.2) [MTS]
                                  Sept 1970 SKTNSK0102T Saskatoon SK (Cl.3) [SaskTel]
                                  Apr 1971 HLFXNS0101T Halifax 1 NS (Cl.3) [BELL's MT&T]
                                  Apr 1971 VANCBC0104T Vancouver 2 BC (Cl.2) [GTE's BCTel]
                                  Mar 1972 EDTNAB0201T Edmonton AB (Cl.3) [AGT]

                                  HAWAII:
                                  Jan 1972 HNLLHIZA01T Honolulu HI (Cl.3) [GTE-Hawaiian Telephone Co]

                                  other independents:
                                  June 1969 FTWYINXA04T Fort Wayne IN (Cl.4) [GTE]
                                  Aug 1969 TAMPFLXA02T Tampa 2 FL (Cl.3) [GTE - FL]
                                  Nov 1971 SPBGFLXA02T St.Petersburg FL(Cl.4) [GTE - FL]
                                  Apr 1972 EVRTWAXA01T Everett 1 WA (Cl.3) [GTE]
                                  May 1972 FYVLNCXA02T Fayetteville NC (Cl.3) [United-Carolina Tel & Tel]
                                  Nov 1972 LSVGNVXB04T Las Vegas 1 NV (Cl.4) [Centel]
                                  Nov 1972 CLWRFLXA02T Clearwater FL (Cl.4) [GTE - FL]
                                  Apr 1974 RCMTNCXA02T Rocky Mount 2 NC(Cl.3) [United-Carolina Tel & Tel]
                                  Oct 1974 SRSTFLXF01T Sarasota 3 FL (Cl.4) [GTE - FL]
                                  Oct 1975 TAMPFLXA03T Tampa 3 FL (Cl.4) [GTE - FL]

                                  Note: the Classification above is more-or-less "as of 1976".
                                  Toll and Tandem switches could be re-homed and ALSO could be
                                  moved up and down the old "semi-rigid" DDD Network Hierarchy
                                  at various times as traffic or network innovations (i.e., the
                                  introduction of the 4Es) warranted.

                                  Cl.1 = Regional (ten in the US, two in Canada)
                                  Cl.2 = Sectional (more numerous than regionals)
                                  Cl.3 = Primary (more numerous than sectionals)
                                  Cl.4 = "ordinary toll or tandem" switches (most numerous)

                                  Equipment/Technology for toll and tandem switches could be 4A/4M
                                  Crossbar, but also Crossbar-Tandem, 5XB, 1/1A ESS, SXS (only on Cl.4
                                  and Cl.3, but never on Cl.2 or Cl.1), later DMS, 4ESS, 5ESS, etc.
                                  In the old Crossbar days, Regina SK (SaskTel) was a Regional Cl.1
                                  center, but it didn't have a NECo 4A but rather a NECo XBTandem
                                  switch. It was the ONLY of the twelve regionals that was *NOT* a
                                  4A/4M type machine. There were also various indep-owned toll switches
                                  that could be other types of crossbar (or electronic) equipment,
                                  such as (United-owned) North Electric of Gallion Ohio, or ITT-Kellogg,
                                  or Stromberg Carlson, or even Japanese companies, etc.

                                  Mark J. Cuccia
                                  mcuccia (at) tulane (dot) edu
                                  New Orleans LA CSA
                                • Dennis Sandow
                                  ... ... intra-state ... them, ... LL-owned. Ownership at all levels of the hierarchy followed usage, and there was always a bias toward letting the BOC
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Nov 5, 2003
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                                    --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, Mark J Cuccia <mcuccia@t...> wrote:

                                    <snip>

                                    > I think that there were SOME 4A/4M machines that truly were "LL-owned",
                                    > such as the Class-One Regionals. True, the BOCs might have had
                                    intra-state
                                    > or "short-haul same-homing region interstate" traffic switched thru
                                    them,
                                    > but my guess is that all (US-based) ten Cl.1 Regionals were 100%
                                    LL-owned.

                                    Ownership at all levels of the hierarchy followed usage, and there was
                                    always a bias toward letting the BOC own slightly more than its usage
                                    share. The difference was handled through the Interstate
                                    Separations/Division of Revenues process.

                                    [ Explanation - It was perfectly fine for the BOC to own equipment
                                    used for interstate traffic, starting with the black telephone, local
                                    pairs, end offices, etc. They "separated" some of their investment to
                                    Interstate, and got paid for that. It was NOT OK for intra-state
                                    traffic to flow on Long Lines-owned facilities and switches, because
                                    that would subject Long Lines to regulation by state PUCs. So the
                                    error on joint ownership was always resolved in favor of the BOC, to
                                    keep Long Lines pure as an interstate carrier only. Ownership
                                    percentages were changed routinely (but not frequently) whenever the
                                    interstate traffic got too close to the Long Lines ownership %. ]

                                    In most Regional Center situations, the 4A also served a class 4 Toll
                                    Center function for nearby end offices. For example, Wayne, Pa was
                                    the toll center for all the Phila west suburbs (and halfway to
                                    Harrisburg and Allentown), and all toll calls dialed from those end
                                    offices routed through Wayne. Many of those calls were
                                    intra-Pennsylvania, and they were the business of the Bell of Pa, so
                                    BPa owned part of the Wayne 4A.

                                    There were some 100% Long Lines switches. As I recall, Norway and
                                    Rockdale were built in remote places, specifically to be RCs, and had
                                    no local office trunks. (An inefficient strategy, since they only
                                    worked a few hours a day, when traffic peaks caused overflow trunking
                                    up and down the hierarchy. By comparison, Wayne had "first route"
                                    traffic 24 hours a day generated by the suburban end offices.)

                                    Pittsburgh 1 Regional Center was jointly owned, engineered by Long
                                    Lines, installed and maintained by Bell of Pa. When Pittsburgh 2 was
                                    built (across the street) as an overseas gateway, it assumed the
                                    Regional Center function and Pittsbg 1 was demoted. All Pittsburg
                                    area end offices were required to send ONLY interstate traffic to
                                    Pittsbg 2, and their intrastate traffic to Pittsbg 1. Thus, Pittsbg 2
                                    RC was 100% interstate, and 100% owned by Long Lines, but only because
                                    of a cooperative routing discipline with the BOC.

                                    On the flip side, there were 2 notable exceptions.

                                    1. Pacific Tell had historic rights to own and operate ALL interstate
                                    plant in California. Probably left over from ancient times when the
                                    Long Lines St Louis Division covered everything west of the
                                    Mississippi. In the 60's and 70's, I would guess that Sacramento and
                                    SanBo RCs were 100% "owned" by Pac Tel, with compensation for
                                    interstate traffic handled through the magic of the Interstate
                                    Separations/Division of Revenues process.

                                    2. New York City had a wierd law that allowed only one telephone
                                    company. NYTel "owned" everything interstate, including the #4XBs,
                                    facilities, the domestic toll and overseas switchboards, even 32 AOTA
                                    building itself. Long Lines engineered, installed and operated, but
                                    NYTel owned, and paid the property taxes. Again, Interstate
                                    Separations/Division of Revenues process compensated them for the
                                    interstate traffic carried on their "owned" plant. I think this NYC
                                    law fell apart around the time of (and probably as a consequence of)
                                    divestiture.

                                    > I also think that some of the individual Cl.4 "ordinary" toll switches,
                                    > even if 4As, might have been 100% BOC-owned, even though there might
                                    have
                                    > been some inter-state traffic "tandem'd thru" them at times.
                                    >
                                    > There was also a *LOCAL* 4A tandem in Dallas TX in the 1970s era, which
                                    > actually handled tandeming of LOCAL-ONLY traffic in the Dallas Metro
                                    area!

                                    Similar in NY City, I believe at 811 10th Ave. NY Tel called them the
                                    Tenth Avenue Tandems, (TAT-1, TAT-2, etc), and that led to some
                                    confusion with the Long Lines Transatlantic Cables. The overseas
                                    control center got strange trouble calls from end office switchmen.

                                    > In the late 1960s and into the 1970s, there were some "independent" area
                                    > 4As as well. These *DID* have the 'X' for the
                                    building-code-identifier in
                                    > the CLLI code, since the 4A was in a non-Bell building, but I'm not sure
                                    > if AT&T-LL had any "ownership" of those 4As.

                                    Probably not, since CONUS independents "settled" with the BOCs
                                    (independent settlements), and then the BOCs settled with Long Lines
                                    (interstate settlements) in two separate steps.

                                    > There was one such non-Bell
                                    > 4A machine in Honolulu (Hawaii) as well (GT&E's Hawaiian Telephone
                                    > Company).

                                    In that era, Hawaii was treated as a "foreign" point. HawTel owned
                                    50% of the mainland submarine cables, all its own "interstate plant"
                                    (like the 4A), and got paid through 50-50 splitting of the overseas
                                    toll revenue - same as the international points.

                                    Dennis
                                  • David Lesher
                                    ... They did not own the OSP. For some reason, all the NYC duct space/cable was owned by the ?Empire State Telephone Co? or some such; ESTC was separate but
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Nov 5, 2003
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                                      Speaking on Deep Background, the Press Secretary whispered:
                                      >
                                      > 2. New York City had a wierd law that allowed only one telephone
                                      > company. NYTel "owned" everything interstate, including the #4XBs,
                                      > facilities, the domestic toll and overseas switchboards, even 32 AOTA
                                      > building itself.

                                      They did not own the OSP. For some reason, all the NYC duct
                                      space/cable was owned by the ?Empire State Telephone Co? or
                                      some such; ESTC was separate but 100% owned by NYTel.

                                      I never heard how this came about.


                                      --
                                      A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@...
                                      & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
                                      Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
                                      is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
                                    • Dennis Sandow
                                      ... Another NY City law. In the early days of telephony (which were also the mature days of telegraphy), the financial district was served by telegraph wires
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Nov 5, 2003
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                                        --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, David Lesher <wb8foz@n...> wrote:
                                        > Speaking on Deep Background, the Press Secretary whispered:
                                        > >
                                        > > 2. New York City had a wierd law that allowed only one telephone
                                        > > company. NYTel "owned" everything interstate, including the #4XBs,
                                        > > facilities, the domestic toll and overseas switchboards, even 32 AOTA
                                        > > building itself.
                                        >
                                        > They did not own the OSP. For some reason, all the NYC duct
                                        > space/cable was owned by the ?Empire State Telephone Co? or
                                        > some such; ESTC was separate but 100% owned by NYTel.
                                        >
                                        > I never heard how this came about.


                                        Another NY City law. In the early days of telephony (which were also
                                        the mature days of telegraphy), the financial district was served by
                                        telegraph wires on poles. You have seen pix of poles with 20 or more
                                        crossarms loaded with open wire, blocking the sun.

                                        When it came time to put the wires into cables underground, NYC
                                        decided that having every carrier (NYT, WU, ??stock ticker
                                        companies??, and the private circuits of the financial interests)
                                        separately tearing up the streets would be foolish. (Not only because
                                        of water, storm sewer, sanitary sewer, gas, steam and electric
                                        service, but also surface trolley tracks in the streets.)

                                        So EMPIRE CITY SUBWAY was born. ECS was a wholly owned subsidiary of
                                        NY Tel. A Division Construction Manager in NY Tel. served as its
                                        President. ECS built and operated an integrated system of conduits in
                                        Manhattan and Bronx, and had to provide ducts to anyone who wanted to
                                        rent them. (Brooklyn, Queens, Richmond conduits were installed and
                                        owned by NY Tel, since it is doubtful that Western Union had any
                                        reason to place cables in those boroughs in any significant quantity.)

                                        ECS did all the sizing, design, interference coordination, permits,
                                        surface traffic rerouting, NYPD "arrangements" and physical
                                        construction of the duct system. The individual carriers leased
                                        duct-miles from ECS, but owned and maintained their own cables. I
                                        can't remember whether ECS or the individual companies actually
                                        placed, racked and spliced the cables.

                                        Of course, "Empire City Subway" on the sides of trucks confused 99% of
                                        the people who wondered why they were competing with the IRT, BMT and
                                        IND subway lines (later consolidated as NY Transit.)

                                        Dennis
                                      • Dennis Sandow
                                        ... Learn More. Their website says since 1891 http://www.empirecitysubway.net/ Dennis
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Nov 5, 2003
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                                          --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, David Lesher <wb8foz@n...> wrote:
                                          > Speaking on Deep Background, the Press Secretary whispered:
                                          > >
                                          > > 2. New York City had a wierd law that allowed only one telephone
                                          > > company. NYTel "owned" everything interstate, including the #4XBs,
                                          > > facilities, the domestic toll and overseas switchboards, even 32 AOTA
                                          > > building itself.
                                          >
                                          > They did not own the OSP. For some reason, all the NYC duct
                                          > space/cable was owned by the ?Empire State Telephone Co? or
                                          > some such; ESTC was separate but 100% owned by NYTel.
                                          >
                                          > I never heard how this came about.
                                          >
                                          >

                                          Learn More. Their website says "since 1891"

                                          http://www.empirecitysubway.net/

                                          Dennis
                                        • Eric
                                          I think it was by 441 and ??? in Ft Lauderdale/Plantation. I remember visiting there and being dumbfounded as a kid by all the antennas they had.
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Nov 6, 2003
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                                            I think it was by 441 and ??? in Ft Lauderdale/Plantation. I
                                            remember visiting there and being dumbfounded as a kid by all the
                                            antennas they had.

                                            http://tinyurl.com/txec

                                            Link to Terraserver for 1999 image.



                                            --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, Mark Foster <mfoster@c...> wrote:
                                            > AT&T High Seas (WOM) radio transmitters were located at
                                            > Pensucco, FL. Does anyone know where the
                                            > RX site was?
                                          • ozob99
                                            Imagery of the receiver site here:
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Sep 11, 2014
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                                            • Eric
                                              Ive always thought it odd. When I lived there in the 80 s we used to go to the Thuderbird SwapShop right across the street. One time we drove down a side
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Sep 12, 2014
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                                                Ive always thought it odd. When I lived there in the 80's we used to go to
                                                the Thuderbird SwapShop right across the street. One time we drove down a
                                                side street there and saw a wonder array of various antennas strung up on
                                                wooden poles. Always though it was part of WOM. Using Google Maps time
                                                machine, you can see several poles in the large field to the south. Was
                                                that related or something else?


                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • Eric
                                                The person that has the pictures of the transmitter site also had a few of the receive site; https://www.flickr.com/photos/junkmatt/sets/72157611911178104/
                                                Message 23 of 25 , Sep 12, 2014
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                                                  The person that has the pictures of the transmitter site also had a few of
                                                  the receive site;

                                                  https://www.flickr.com/photos/junkmatt/sets/72157611911178104/


                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • Matthew Strong
                                                  My photos. we did the removal of the entire transmitter site, after a developer bought the land to mitigate wetlands development somewhere else. Tried to get
                                                  Message 24 of 25 , Sep 12, 2014
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                                                    My photos. we did the removal of the entire transmitter site, after a
                                                    developer bought the land to mitigate wetlands development somewhere else.
                                                    Tried to get in to see the receive site, but they wouldn't let us in, just
                                                    the photos of the outside.

                                                    On Fri, Sep 12, 2014 at 6:55 AM, Eric er1c.net@... [coldwarcomms] <
                                                    coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > The person that has the pictures of the transmitter site also had a few of
                                                    > the receive site;
                                                    >
                                                    > https://www.flickr.com/photos/junkmatt/sets/72157611911178104/
                                                    >
                                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >


                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  • ozob99
                                                    Were there any UHF pipes still there?; Pensucco was on a NEACP/SCOPELIGHT circuit for a time,so it was likely a GEP.
                                                    Message 25 of 25 , Sep 12, 2014
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                                                      Were there any UHF "pipes" still there?; Pensucco was on a NEACP/SCOPELIGHT circuit for a time,so it was likely a GEP.
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