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lettering convention for L carrier lines?

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  • Michael Schwiebert
    What was the convention used for the letter prefix found on the L carrier route markers?  For example, the east-west route nearest to me (to points east and
    Message 1 of 20 , May 7, 2014
      What was the convention used for the letter prefix found on the L carrier route markers?  For example, the east-west route nearest to me (to points east and west from Whitehouse Ohio)  has an "E"  prefix.  Does that mean that preceding routes of earlier technologies to the same origin/destination used letters before "E".   Also,  why do some of the "tent"  markers have "AT&T"  on them instead of the alpha-numeric designation?

      Thanks in advance!

      Michael Schwiebert
      Perrysburg OH


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    • charlie Fargis
      Direction from another repeater Princeton L1S would have the first repeater south of Princeton NJ L1 was the line type L1 To: coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com
      Message 2 of 20 , May 7, 2014
        Direction from another repeater
        Princeton L1S would have the first repeater south of Princeton NJ
        L1 was the line type L1


        To: coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com
        From: michael.schwiebert@...
        Date: Wed, 7 May 2014 04:56:13 -0700
        Subject: [coldwarcomms] lettering convention for L carrier lines?


























        What was the convention used for the letter prefix found on the L carrier route markers? For example, the east-west route nearest to me (to points east and west from Whitehouse Ohio) has an "E" prefix. Does that mean that preceding routes of earlier technologies to the same origin/destination used letters before "E". Also, why do some of the "tent" markers have "AT&T" on them instead of the alpha-numeric designation?



        Thanks in advance!



        Michael Schwiebert

        Perrysburg OH



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



















        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • ozob99
        E as a direction should be the suffix; e.g. if it s E 2 W the E may be an abbreviation for the terminal/main station, but I ve never seen that. Expounding:
        Message 3 of 20 , May 7, 2014
          "E" as a direction should be the suffix; e.g. if it's "E 2 W" the E may be an abbreviation for the terminal/main station, but I've never seen that.

          Expounding:


          L1 & L3 repeaters were designated as main or terminal station (name) L ( numerical sequence from that station; first=1,2,3...) & direction(S,N,E,W) to the end of the power loop(typically 10-17 stations); then the same protocol for the next power loop, which would be another direction(but usually the opposite) from the next terminal/main on the route.

          L3 added one half stations to existing L1 lines(8 mile spans becoming 4), so the sequence was Podunk L 1/2 N, then Podunk L1 N,Podunk L 1 1/2 N etc.

          If you don't see 1/2 stations on a map showing the repeaters it was most likely L1; if no map & only a station name you can't tell whether it was L1 or L3, but most L1's converted to L3 by the late 1950's; a notable exception were the L1's into Offutt.
        • David
          ... And the Garden City-Wash1 TV feed?
          Message 4 of 20 , May 7, 2014
            On 5/7/14 12:29 PM, ozob99@... wrote:

            > but most L1's converted to L3 by the late 1950's; a notable exception were the L1's into Offutt.

            And the Garden City-Wash1 TV feed?
          • David
            ... So if you find a 1/2 number, is that good reason to assume it was a L1- L3 upgrade, vice a new L3 run? Given a 2L2S that was the 2nd station south of the
            Message 5 of 20 , May 7, 2014
              On 5/7/14 12:29 PM, ozob99@... wrote:

              > L1 & L3 repeaters were designated as main or terminal station (name)
              > L (numerical sequence from that station; first=1,2,3...) &
              > direction(S,N,E,W) to the end of the power loop(typically 10-17
              > stations); then the same protocol for the next power loop, which would
              > be another direction(but usually the opposite) from the next
              > terminal/main on the route.
              >


              > L3 added one half stations to existing L1 lines(8 mile spans becoming
              > 4), so the sequence was Podunk L 1/2 N, then Podunk L1 N,Podunk L 1
              > 1/2 N etc.



              So if you find a 1/2 number, is that good reason to assume it was a L1->L3
              upgrade, vice a new L3 run?

              Given a "2L2S" that was the 2nd station south of the main? This was a
              junction station, at least for K.
            • ozob99
              A 1/2 designation would only be on an L1 converted to L3 route; a new L3 route would use whole numbers but with repeaters 4 miles apart; I should have added:
              Message 6 of 20 , May 7, 2014
                A 1/2 designation would only be on an L1 converted to L3 route; a new L3 route would use whole numbers but with repeaters 4 miles apart; I should have added: whole number stations only, with no 1/2's, was either an L1 or a new L3 route; you would have to know the repeater spacing to determine; but again most L1's were converted by late 1950's, so date of map/documents would help narrow it down.

                I don't follow the "2L2S"? L2S would be the second station south of the main.

                Monrovia-BRS, a short route with power feed at monrovia only, & IIRC stations ID'd as Monrovia L1N thru about 9 I think; no BRS south stations.

                The Wash 1-Garden City L1 route was less than 8 miles so no repeater at all, or power plants; same for the Arlington 1 - Arlington 2 L1 route; and Wash 1- Silver Spring.
              • David
                ... That s the name I found referring {I think....} to the K Junction at 39.23433, -76.83085 It having L added later. {Or so it looks like...}
                Message 7 of 20 , May 7, 2014
                  On 5/7/14 4:46 PM, ozob99@... wrote:
                  > I don't follow the "2L2S"? L2S would be the second station south of the main.

                  That's the name I found referring {I think....} to the K Junction at
                  39.23433, -76.83085
                  It having L added later. {Or so it looks like...}
                • David
                  ... Nod, but there I was making reference to the virtually all L1 s went to L3 remark earlier today. It looks like that was not true on short tie circuits.
                  Message 8 of 20 , May 7, 2014
                    On 5/7/14 4:46 PM, ozob99@... wrote:

                    > The Wash 1-Garden City L1 route was less than 8 miles so no repeater at
                    > all, or power plants; same for the Arlington 1 - Arlington 2 L1 route;
                    > and Wash 1- Silver Spring.


                    Nod, but there I was making reference to the "virtually all L1's went to
                    L3" remark earlier today. It looks like that was not true on short tie
                    circuits.
                  • cpe122
                    Michael, I apologize in advance for not answering your question; but I see the topic has wandered from markers to repeater/huts. I believe David raised the
                    Message 9 of 20 , May 7, 2014
                      Michael, I apologize in advance for not answering your question; but I see the topic has wandered from markers to repeater/huts. I believe David raised the question of "prefixed" routes in Ohio before. I do not recall there being a meaningful answer that time either.

                      We do know that the cable near you is NOT what most would call an "E cable" per se (as tempting as that is in discussions); that would be predicated on there being four older cables between Medina and Whitehouse which isn't the case (in fact it's the first). If one were to use the old nomenclature, this ought to be the Medina-Whitehouse "A" cable. David's web page briefly mentions this "E route": http://www.panix.com/ http://www.panix.com/~wb8foz/Medina/. You will see there are several routes whose prefix don't appear to suggest an obvious meaning.

                      The marker numbers themselves are sequential, and seem to only make sense to OSP people. They are not a measure of distance. And unlike K or L carrier repeater numbers, they don't count up then count down mid-route.

                      As for the AT&T tents; don't know that either. It could mark something unusual, or it might be where damage was repaired.

                      /cpe

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                    • cpe122
                      ... You might see this on an L3- L4 upgrade (I can t say as I have though), although I would NOT expect to see that on L4- L5 routes, as the L4 routes I have
                      Message 10 of 20 , May 7, 2014
                        ---In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, <wb8foz@...> wrote :

                        > So if you find a 1/2 number, is that good reason to assume it was a L1->L3
                        > upgrade, vice a new L3 run?

                        You "might" see this on an L3->L4 upgrade (I can't say as I have though), although I would NOT expect to see that on L4->L5 routes, as the L4 routes I have seen were even numbered from the getgo (allowing for odd, half-span L5s to be added at a later date, even though I didn't see any on those routes).

                        > Given a "2L2S" that was the 2nd station south of the main?

                        The only times I have seen that nomenclature as been where:

                        1) There are two cables/routes between the same two terminal stations. This would distinguish between, say Baltimore L2S and Baltimore 2L2S, which would most likely be completely different physical locations.

                        2) The route split and some number of tubes went in two separate directions. This was the case between the underground at Chesterfield and Springfield in Mass., and the Cheshire CT underground. Maps show a location called Springfield Jct.; south of "the junction" the L3 huts were numbered in this fashion (Chesterfield LnS on one, the original side of the "fork", and Chesterfield 2LnS on the "new" side of the "fork").

                        /cpe





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                      • cpe122
                        ... On the other hand it would appear that one or two repeaters would have been needed between Wash.1 and Silver Spring on the Wash.1-Balt.2 L3 cable. David,
                        Message 11 of 20 , May 7, 2014
                          ---In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, <ozob99@...> wrote :

                          > The Wash 1-Garden City L1 route was less than 8 miles so no repeater at all, or power plants;
                          > same for the Arlington 1 - Arlington 2 L1 route; and Wash 1- Silver Spring.

                          On the other hand it would appear that one or two repeaters would have been needed between Wash.1 and Silver Spring on the Wash.1-Balt.2 L3 cable. David, Farrell (and others?) have found well more than half of them on this route; however I fear that ones in the urban areas of Silver Spring, DC and Baltimore are probably lost to time unless some more historical cable maps turn up.

                          /cpe






                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • David
                          ... My guess, based on my Berlin Hts travels, is there they ran out of numbers... Mason Rd. seems to have a marker every few feet at places. I recall one place
                          Message 12 of 20 , May 7, 2014
                            On 5/7/14 7:33 PM, cpe122@... wrote:

                            > As for the AT&T tents; don't know that either. It could mark something
                            > unusual, or it might be where damage was repaired.


                            My guess, based on my Berlin Hts travels, is there they ran out of
                            numbers... Mason Rd. seems to have a marker every few feet at places. I
                            recall one place where 4 were in sight. (I recall two *small* stream
                            crossings; if the marker on either side fell over, it would have hit the
                            other...)

                            More seriously, it appeared that occasionally, they just had ATT on them;
                            they could have been fill-ins or replacements.

                            Were the original tents numbers painted, or actually cut out? I seem to
                            recall seeing the latter somewhere.
                          • charlie Fargis
                            Wash 1 to Garden City had real L1 Line equipment. It wasnt just a MG trunk. But I dont recall if it had LMX1 or a connector. Pretty sure it was LMX1. To:
                            Message 13 of 20 , May 7, 2014
                              Wash 1 to Garden City had real L1 Line equipment. It wasnt just a MG trunk.
                              But I dont recall if it had LMX1 or a connector. Pretty sure it was LMX1.


                              To: coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com
                              From: wb8foz@...
                              Date: Wed, 7 May 2014 17:02:04 -0400
                              Subject: Re: [coldwarcomms] Re: lettering convention for L carrier lines?


























                              On 5/7/14 4:46 PM, ozob99@... wrote:



                              > The Wash 1-Garden City L1 route was less than 8 miles so no repeater at

                              > all, or power plants; same for the Arlington 1 - Arlington 2 L1 route;

                              > and Wash 1- Silver Spring.



                              Nod, but there I was making reference to the "virtually all L1's went to

                              L3" remark earlier today. It looks like that was not true on short tie

                              circuits.

















                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • ozob99
                              Based on my vague recollections of Silver Spring & some maps, it seems the L1 cable to Wash1(aka tie cable #1) ran roughly parallel to the Balt-Wash G cable
                              Message 14 of 20 , May 7, 2014
                                Based on my vague recollections of Silver Spring & some maps, it seems the L1 cable to Wash1(aka tie cable #1) ran roughly parallel to the Balt-Wash G cable (an L1 converted to L3) between Wash 1 & Silver Spring, turning a little NE toward Baltimore.

                                That means there would have originally been a L1 repeater(Washington L1N) a couple of miles NNE of Silver Spring. There would have been a 1/2 station added on the G cable during L3 conversion about 4 miles N of Wash 1, possibly along 16th St or Georgia Ave.

                                I suppose there is small possibility both could have been in one sheath between Wash 1 & Silver Spring CO,if so, the 1/2 station would have been for the tubes continuing on to Baltimore.

                                I can't think of any L cable with 1 or more coax pairs remaining L1 & the rest converting to L3.
                              • David
                                ... Was G Coax-4 or was F? ... The only repeater that close was not built until 1959+. There is 2KN four miles north of it; it could have also held L1
                                Message 15 of 20 , May 7, 2014
                                  On 5/7/14 9:12 PM, ozob99@... wrote:

                                  > Based on my vague recollections of Silver Spring& some maps, it seems
                                  > the L1 cable to Wash1(aka tie cable #1) ran roughly parallel to the
                                  > Balt-Wash G cable (an L1 converted to L3) between Wash 1& Silver
                                  > Spring, turning a little NE toward Baltimore.

                                  Was G Coax-4 or was F?

                                  > That means there would have originally been a L1 repeater(Washington
                                  > L1N) a couple of miles NNE of Silver Spring.

                                  The only repeater that close was not built until 1959+. There is 2KN four
                                  miles north of it; it could have also held L1 equipment.

                                  > There would have been a 1/2 station added on the G cable during L3
                                  > conversion about 4 miles N of Wash 1, possibly along 16th St or Georgia
                                  > Ave.

                                  There was both Coax-4 L1 and Coax-8. {& toll cable, installed for K, I think..}

                                  I assume the latter coax was installed as L3, in the 1959 era. And the
                                  Coax-4 converted, I'd think.

                                  But AFAWK, none of those went via Silver Spring; Map6 says they went
                                  straight downtown.


                                  > I suppose there is small possibility both could have been in one sheath
                                  > between Wash 1& Silver Spring CO,if so, the 1/2 station would have
                                  > been for the tubes continuing on to Baltimore.
                                  >
                                  > I can't think of any L cable with 1 or more coax pairs remaining L1& the
                                  > rest converting to L3.
                                • cpe122
                                  ... Two maps I ve seen contradict each other as whether the Wash-Balt runs through Silver Spring or not. I could see in sense that if that cable ran through
                                  Message 16 of 20 , May 7, 2014
                                    ---In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, <ozob99@...> wrote :

                                    > Based on my vague recollections of Silver Spring & some maps, it seems the L1 cable to Wash1
                                    > (aka tie cable #1) ran roughly parallel to the Balt-Wash G cable (an L1 converted to L3)
                                    > between Wash 1 & Silver Spring, turning a little NE toward Baltimore.

                                    Two maps I've seen contradict each other as whether the Wash-Balt runs through Silver Spring or not.
                                    I could see in sense that if that cable ran through the vault, both versions could be correct from a particular point of view.

                                    > That means there would have originally been a L1 repeater(Washington L1N) a couple of miles NNE of
                                    > Silver Spring.

                                    Maybe. But with it being 7 miles door-to-door (Wash-SS), we've been thinking it might have been in the SS office... Eight miles from Wash 1 puts you almost out to the beltway, and a mile from the Colesville Rd. hut.
                                    It would seem that here on the southern end of the route some sections may have been a little short and padded out.

                                    > There would have been a 1/2 station added on the G cable during L3 conversion about 4 miles N of Wash 1,
                                    > possibly along 16th St or Georgia Ave.

                                    Roger that.

                                    > I suppose there is small possibility both could have been in one sheath between Wash 1 & Silver Spring,
                                    > if so, the 1/2 station would have been for the tubes continuing on to Baltimore.

                                    True, but I wouldn't put any of my money on it. I've only seen one document that suggests the Wash.1-Balt.2 cable ran through the SS CO; and even it clearly denotes them as cable routes 11 and 160.

                                    > I can't think of any L cable with 1 or more coax pairs remaining L1 & the rest converting to L3.

                                    Me either.

                                    /cpe





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                                  • Tom G
                                    Can anybody shed any light on the meanings behind the colors and quantity of metal bands that wrap around the tops of the wooden posts marking the locations of
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Aug 30, 2014
                                      Can anybody shed any light on the meanings behind the colors and quantity of metal bands that wrap around the tops of the wooden posts marking the locations of the AT&T transcontinental cable routes?

                                      So far I have seen:

                                      Single Yellow
                                      Double Yellow
                                      Single Orange
                                      Double Orange
                                      Double Yellow with half Orange

                                      Probably a whole lot more that I can't recall. As best as I can tell, a particular color scheme does not appear to unique to the particular route.

                                      Appreciate any insight that can be provided.

                                      Currently researching the following routes:

                                      Littleton to Cambridge
                                      Littleton to Blackstone
                                      Littleton to Ashburnham
                                      Chesterfield to Littleton

                                      All the best

                                      73's

                                      Tom, N1JQB
                                      Metrowest Boston
                                    • packy41
                                      Nope... but what I have seen on the railroads and missile fields are: 1 stripe, 1/4 mile, 2 stripes 1/2 mile, 3 stripes 3/4 mil and 4 stripes one mile, then
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Aug 30, 2014
                                        Nope... but what I have seen on the railroads and missile fields are: 1 stripe, 1/4 mile, 2 stripes 1/2 mile, 3 stripes 3/4 mil and 4 stripes one mile, then repeat.

                                        Best I can come up with..


                                        --------------------------------------------
                                        On Sat, 8/30/14, Tom G tomg88us@... [coldwarcomms] <coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                        Subject: [coldwarcomms] Transcontinental Cable Route Marker Indicators
                                        To: coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com
                                        Date: Saturday, August 30, 2014, 7:35 PM

                                        Can anybody shed any light on the
                                        meanings behind the colors and quantity of metal bands that
                                        wrap around the tops of the wooden posts marking the
                                        locations of the AT&T transcontinental cable routes?

                                        So far I have seen:

                                        Single Yellow
                                        Double Yellow
                                        Single Orange
                                        Double Orange
                                        Double Yellow with half Orange

                                        Probably a whole lot more that I can't recall.  As best
                                        as I can tell, a particular color scheme does not appear to
                                        unique to the particular route.

                                        Appreciate any insight that can be provided.

                                        Currently researching the following routes:

                                        Littleton to Cambridge
                                        Littleton to Blackstone
                                        Littleton to Ashburnham
                                        Chesterfield to Littleton

                                        All the best

                                        73's

                                        Tom, N1JQB
                                        Metrowest Boston




                                        ------------------------------------
                                        Posted by: Tom G <tomg88us@...>
                                        ------------------------------------


                                        ------------------------------------

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                                      • farrelmb
                                        From what I ve seen, mostly radiating out from Monrovia, the strips at the tops of the original wooden posts seem to be solely for visibility. The color was
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Sep 2, 2014
                                          From what I've seen, mostly radiating out from Monrovia, the strips at the tops of the original wooden posts seem to be solely for visibility. The color was probably originally also for visibility but now orange designates telcom in general.

                                          These older markers and the newer plastic ones all have a sequential number. The numbering does not indicate distance, merely the position in the path. I've seen a few markers that were added between existing markers. These added markers have a 1/2 designation. If a marker was added between numbers 11 and 12, the added marker would be 11 1/2. I've even seen 3 added between existing markers. They run 1031, 1031 1/2, 1031 1/3, 1031 1/4, 1032.

                                          Farrel

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                                        • cpe122
                                          Yellow is the older color; Orange is the newer color. Despite being familiar with the Littleton routes, I can t say I remember anything regarding 1 band vs. 2
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Sep 5, 2014
                                            Yellow is the older color; Orange is the newer color. Despite being familiar with the Littleton routes, I can't say I remember anything regarding 1 band vs. 2 bands.

                                            Let us know your Littleton questions. There is a lot of knowledge of the area here.

                                            Here's a taste:
                                            web.archive.org/web/20020606141835/http://www1.shore.net/~mfoster/Littleton.htm
                                            web.archive.org/web/20021020064220/http://www1.shore.net/~mfoster/Ash_Route.htm
                                            http://www.gpsvisualizer.com/display/20140905192520-29185-map.html http://www.gpsvisualizer.com/display/20140905192520-29185-map.html

                                            /cpe

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