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combat ciders (was:Re: [coldwarcomms] Digest Number 4696

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  • doug humphrey
    ... http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/c3i/combat_ciders.htm
    Message 1 of 11 , Dec 15, 2013
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      >
      > (2) What is the meaning of the term COMBAT CIDER or COMBAT CINDER? I have
      > seen it referred to both ways and I'm sure one is wrong.

      http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/c3i/combat_ciders.htm
    • coloradoredlands
      Thanks Doug, But, that doesn t sound like it was written by someone that had first hand knowledge. Sounds a little like someone quoting something they read
      Message 2 of 11 , Dec 15, 2013
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        Thanks Doug,
         
        But, that doesn't sound like it was written by someone that had first hand knowledge.  Sounds a little like someone quoting something they read somewhere else.
         
        Chris
         
        In a message dated 12/15/2013 18:03:47 Coordinated Universal Time, doug@... writes:
        http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/c3i/combat_ciders.htm
      • Mike Walker
        This is a topic I ve been very interested in, too. I will see what I can dig up: I know a retired USAF colonel who may know something unclassified he can
        Message 3 of 11 , Dec 15, 2013
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          This is a topic I've been very interested in, too. I will see what I can dig up: I know a retired USAF colonel who may know something unclassified he can share. There's not a lot except the FAS info online and info that mirrors it. I do know firsthand that when I've visited a couple facilities with what appear to be Combat Ciders antennas, no one at these facilities will confirm nor deny whether they are or are not, which I do find interesting.

          I've never heard of a "Combat Cinders"—has anyone else? If it's been seen in print even but in isolated cases it's probably a corruption of "Combat Ciders" and not an actual system of its own.


          Mike


          On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 4:58 PM, <coloradoredlands@...> wrote:
           

          Thanks Doug,
           
          But, that doesn't sound like it was written by someone that had first hand knowledge.  Sounds a little like someone quoting something they read somewhere else.
           
          Chris
           
          In a message dated 12/15/2013 18:03:47 Coordinated Universal Time, doug@... writes:
          http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/c3i/combat_ciders.htm


        • coloradoredlands
          It has been my understanding that the Combat Ciders (Cinders) were the air/ground and air/air telephone circuits of the wideband signal, but not the only
          Message 4 of 11 , Dec 15, 2013
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            It has been my understanding that the Combat Ciders (Cinders) were the air/ground and air/air telephone circuits of the wideband signal, but not the only circuits contained on the signal.
             
            It seems most of the information out there is hobby based and so the names get different spellings by different authors.  I have seem the terms Combat Cider and Combat Cinder used almost interchangeably, but I'm certain only one is correct.  I am also curious if the system really was called North Star or if that was a hobbyist interpretation too.
             
            Chris
             
            In a message dated 12/16/2013 02:16:30 Coordinated Universal Time, thecloudboy@... writes:


            This is a topic I've been very interested in, too. I will see what I can dig up: I know a retired USAF colonel who may know something unclassified he can share. There's not a lot except the FAS info online and info that mirrors it. I do know firsthand that when I've visited a couple facilities with what appear to be Combat Ciders antennas, no one at these facilities will confirm nor deny whether they are or are not, which I do find interesting.

            I've never heard of a "Combat Cinders"—has anyone else? If it's been seen in print even but in isolated cases it's probably a corruption of "Combat Ciders" and not an actual system of its own.


            Mike


            On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 4:58 PM, <coloradoredlands@...> wrote:
             

            Thanks Doug,
             
            But, that doesn't sound like it was written by someone that had first hand knowledge.  Sounds a little like someone quoting something they read somewhere else.
             
            Chris
             
            In a message dated 12/15/2013 18:03:47 Coordinated Universal Time, doug@... writes:
            http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/c3i/combat_ciders.htm


          • Mike Walker
            My understanding is, North Star was a dedicated system that was to enable air-to-ground comms for Air Force One, Nightwatch, Looking Glass and other Cold War
            Message 5 of 11 , Dec 15, 2013
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              My understanding is, North Star was a dedicated system that was to enable air-to-ground comms for Air Force One, Nightwatch, Looking Glass and other Cold War era command and control air assets. Combat Ciders was the name of the GEP-specific technology used for North Star and any other systems that did the same basic mission. I could be wrong on any or all of that, but that's my understanding. I will ask people and look back through old Bruce Blair and Ashton Carter books and see if I can spot anything definite. 


              Mike


              On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 9:52 PM, <coloradoredlands@...> wrote:
               

              It has been my understanding that the Combat Ciders (Cinders) were the air/ground and air/air telephone circuits of the wideband signal, but not the only circuits contained on the signal.
               
              It seems most of the information out there is hobby based and so the names get different spellings by different authors.  I have seem the terms Combat Cider and Combat Cinder used almost interchangeably, but I'm certain only one is correct.  I am also curious if the system really was called North Star or if that was a hobbyist interpretation too.
               
              Chris
               
              In a message dated 12/16/2013 02:16:30 Coordinated Universal Time, thecloudboy@... writes:


              This is a topic I've been very interested in, too. I will see what I can dig up: I know a retired USAF colonel who may know something unclassified he can share. There's not a lot except the FAS info online and info that mirrors it. I do know firsthand that when I've visited a couple facilities with what appear to be Combat Ciders antennas, no one at these facilities will confirm nor deny whether they are or are not, which I do find interesting.

              I've never heard of a "Combat Cinders"—has anyone else? If it's been seen in print even but in isolated cases it's probably a corruption of "Combat Ciders" and not an actual system of its own.


              Mike


              On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 4:58 PM, <coloradoredlands@...> wrote:
               

              Thanks Doug,
               
              But, that doesn't sound like it was written by someone that had first hand knowledge.  Sounds a little like someone quoting something they read somewhere else.
               
              Chris
               
              In a message dated 12/15/2013 18:03:47 Coordinated Universal Time, doug@... writes:
              http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/c3i/combat_ciders.htm



            • Dexter McIntyre W4DEX
              Combat Ciders is what we called the circuits. I attended a Nightwatch, Scopelight, Looking Glass joint meeting in Washington in the 70s. Combat ciders is also
              Message 6 of 11 , Dec 15, 2013
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                Combat Ciders is what we called the circuits. I attended a Nightwatch,
                Scopelight, Looking Glass joint meeting in Washington in the 70s.
                Combat ciders is also the way I heard it pronounced at that meeting.

                Dex

                Mike Walker wrote:
                >
                > I've never heard of a "Combat Cinders"—has anyone else? If it's been
                > seen in print even but in isolated cases it's probably a corruption of
                > "Combat Ciders" and not an actual system of its own.
                >
                >
                > Mike
                >
              • Mike Walker
                Thank you! Now we re getting somewhere with first-person info! Mike On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 10:15 PM, Dexter McIntyre W4DEX
                Message 7 of 11 , Dec 15, 2013
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                  Thank you! Now we're getting somewhere with first-person info!

                  Mike


                  On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 10:15 PM, Dexter McIntyre W4DEX <dexter.mc@...> wrote:
                  Combat Ciders is what we called the circuits.  I attended a Nightwatch,
                  Scopelight, Looking Glass joint meeting in Washington in the 70s.
                  Combat ciders is also the way I heard it pronounced at that meeting.

                  Dex

                  Mike Walker wrote:
                  >
                  > I've never heard of a "Combat Cinders"—has anyone else? If it's been
                  > seen in print even but in isolated cases it's probably a corruption of
                  > "Combat Ciders" and not an actual system of its own.
                  >
                  >
                  > Mike
                  >



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                • Blake Bowers
                  Combat CINDERS was never a communications project. It was a .. action during the Viet Nam era. One we were not doing. _____ From:
                  Message 8 of 11 , Dec 15, 2013
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                    Combat CINDERS was never a communications project.  

                     

                    It was a …… action during the Viet Nam era.   One we were not doing.

                     

                     


                    From: coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com [mailto: coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Mike Walker
                    Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2013 9:28 PM
                    To: coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [coldwarcomms] Re: combat ciders

                     

                     

                    Thank you! Now we're getting somewhere with first-person info!

                     

                    Mike

                     

                    On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 10:15 PM, Dexter McIntyre W4DEX <dexter.mc@...> wrote:

                    Combat Ciders is what we called the circuits.  I attended a Nightwatch,
                    Scopelight, Looking Glass joint meeting in Washington in the 70s.
                    Combat ciders is also the way I heard it pronounced at that meeting.

                    Dex

                    Mike Walker wrote:

                    >
                    > I've never heard of a "Combat Cinders"—has anyone else? If it's
                    been
                    > seen in print even but in isolated cases it's probably a corruption of
                    > "Combat Ciders" and not an actual system of its own.
                    >
                    >
                    > Mike
                    >



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                  • Ken Bowles
                    NorthStar is a current system . . . see https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=9d532436ae3cab32632bfd37323482af&tab=core&_cview=0 . Ken ...
                    Message 9 of 11 , Dec 15, 2013
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                      On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 9:13 PM, Mike Walker <thecloudboy@...> wrote:
                       



                      My understanding is, North Star was a dedicated system that was to enable air-to-ground comms for Air Force One, Nightwatch, Looking Glass and other Cold War era command and control air assets. Combat Ciders was the name of the GEP-specific technology used for North Star and any other systems that did the same basic mission. I could be wrong on any or all of that, but that's my understanding. I will ask people and look back through old Bruce Blair and Ashton Carter books and see if I can spot anything definite. 


                      Mike


                      On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 9:52 PM, <coloradoredlands@...> wrote:
                       

                      It has been my understanding that the Combat Ciders (Cinders) were the air/ground and air/air telephone circuits of the wideband signal, but not the only circuits contained on the signal.
                       
                      It seems most of the information out there is hobby based and so the names get different spellings by different authors.  I have seem the terms Combat Cider and Combat Cinder used almost interchangeably, but I'm certain only one is correct.  I am also curious if the system really was called North Star or if that was a hobbyist interpretation too.
                       
                      Chris
                       
                      In a message dated 12/16/2013 02:16:30 Coordinated Universal Time, thecloudboy@... writes:


                      This is a topic I've been very interested in, too. I will see what I can dig up: I know a retired USAF colonel who may know something unclassified he can share. There's not a lot except the FAS info online and info that mirrors it. I do know firsthand that when I've visited a couple facilities with what appear to be Combat Ciders antennas, no one at these facilities will confirm nor deny whether they are or are not, which I do find interesting.

                      I've never heard of a "Combat Cinders"—has anyone else? If it's been seen in print even but in isolated cases it's probably a corruption of "Combat Ciders" and not an actual system of its own.


                      Mike


                      On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 4:58 PM, <coloradoredlands@...> wrote:
                       

                      Thanks Doug,
                       
                      But, that doesn't sound like it was written by someone that had first hand knowledge.  Sounds a little like someone quoting something they read somewhere else.
                       
                      Chris
                       
                      In a message dated 12/15/2013 18:03:47 Coordinated Universal Time, doug@... writes:
                      http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/c3i/combat_ciders.htm




                    • bruce5246
                      From COMBAT CIDERS - A full-duplex frequency division
                      Message 10 of 11 , Dec 16, 2013
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                        From <http://pe2bz.philpem.me.uk/Comm/-%20Transmitters/-%20Jammers/Info-901-MilSpaceGlossary/gloss_c.htm>
                        "COMBAT CIDERS - A full-duplex frequency division multiplexing (FDM) multi-channel Air Force One communications link, via nuclear-hardened antennas at many of the AUTOVON switching centers. Synonymous with AUTOVON WIDEBAND. [10:2723] NOTE: As a post-nuclear attack communications system, it was sometimes referred to as COMBAT CINDERS."
                        --
                        Bruce Fletcher
                        Stronsay, Orkney UK
                      • Dexter McIntyre W4DEX
                        ... I will also confirm that. Dex
                        Message 11 of 11 , Dec 16, 2013
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                          Blake Bowers wrote:
                          >
                          > Combat CINDERS was never a communications project.
                          >
                          > It was a …… action during the Viet Nam era.
                          >
                          I will also confirm that.

                          Dex
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