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Oak Hill

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  • David
    We drove by Oak Hill Sunday. Photos later if I ever conquer getting things to upload. Look much like a L4 site does from the road. It had 3-phase but now has a
    Message 1 of 13 , Nov 3, 2013
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      We drove by Oak Hill Sunday. Photos later if I ever conquer getting things
      to upload.

      Look much like a L4 site does from the road. It had 3-phase but now has a
      tiny single-phase pole pig.

      The only line marker tents we saw were yellow, and in poor shape.

      I was wondering if we knew about upgrades; would it have been upgraded
      L3->L4->L5, L3->L5, or not at all? And would they have just used the
      Coax-8, or overlaid Coax-20 or 22?

      [I wonder if L3 buildings were large enough for L4, and if L5 took less
      space? I'd SWAG a 8-tube L4 or L5 might fit into the L3 space..]
    • Robert Getsla
      David, Which Oak Hill are you talking about?  The Oak Hill I know was a major Junction of both the AT&T microwave and coax cable networks.  And there still
      Message 2 of 13 , Nov 3, 2013
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        David,

        Which Oak Hill are you talking about?  The Oak Hill I know was a major "Junction" of both the AT&T microwave and coax cable networks.  And there still is 3 phase power to it.  Here are two links to the San Jose, California, "Oak Hill"

        http://long-lines.net/places-routes/Oak_Hill_CA/index.html

        http://www.emporis.com/building/communicationshilltower-sanjose-ca-usa
         
        Bob Getsla aka LinearBob    WA6WHT
        Transmitter engineer for KTSF-TV26 and KTSF-DT27, San Francisco, CA  (1 day per week)
        Analog, RF, and Network engineer for WattMinder, Sunnyvale, CA (the rest of the week)
        Linux evangelist
        Inventor


        On Sunday, November 3, 2013 1:44 AM, David <wb8foz@...> wrote:
         
        We drove by Oak Hill Sunday. Photos later if I ever conquer getting things
        to upload.

        Look much like a L4 site does from the road. It had 3-phase but now has a
        tiny single-phase pole pig.

        The only line marker tents we saw were yellow, and in poor shape.

        I was wondering if we knew about upgrades; would it have been upgraded
        L3->L4->L5, L3->L5, or not at all? And would they have just used the
        Coax-8, or overlaid Coax-20 or 22?

        [I wonder if L3 buildings were large enough for L4, and if L5 took less
        space? I'd SWAG a 8-tube L4 or L5 might fit into the L3 space..]



      • ozob99
        The only upgrade I ve heard of since the initial 8 tube L3I (1961) was Philips P-140 on the original cable between Monrovia-Williamstown; I don t know if
        Message 3 of 13 , Nov 3, 2013
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           The only upgrade I've heard of  since the initial 8 tube  L3I (1961) was Philips P-140 on the original cable between Monrovia-Williamstown; I don't know if P-140 was added to sections North of Monrovia or West of Williamstown; however,as mentioned previously, Phillips was added to the far West Socorro-Mojave section.



          ---In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, <coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

          We drove by Oak Hill Sunday. Photos later if I ever conquer getting things
          to upload.

          Look much like a L4 site does from the road. It had 3-phase but now has a
          tiny single-phase pole pig.

          The only line marker tents we saw were yellow, and in poor shape.

          I was wondering if we knew about upgrades; would it have been upgraded
          L3->L4->L5, L3->L5, or not at all? And would they have just used the
          Coax-8, or overlaid Coax-20 or 22?

          [I wonder if L3 buildings were large enough for L4, and if L5 took less
          space? I'd SWAG a 8-tube L4 or L5 might fit into the L3 space..]
        • ozob99
          OOPS, make that initial L3I 12 tube, not 8; sr moment ... The only upgrade I ve heard of since the initial 8 tube L3I (1961) was Philips P-140 on the
          Message 4 of 13 , Nov 3, 2013
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             OOPS, make that initial L3I 12 tube, not 8; sr moment



            ---In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, <coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

             The only upgrade I've heard of  since the initial 8 tube  L3I (1961) was Philips P-140 on the original cable between Monrovia-Williamstown; I don't know if P-140 was added to sections North of Monrovia or West of Williamstown; however,as mentioned previously, Phillips was added to the far West Socorro-Mojave section.



            ---In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, <coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

            We drove by Oak Hill Sunday. Photos later if I ever conquer getting things
            to upload.

            Look much like a L4 site does from the road. It had 3-phase but now has a
            tiny single-phase pole pig.

            The only line marker tents we saw were yellow, and in poor shape.

            I was wondering if we knew about upgrades; would it have been upgraded
            L3->L4->L5, L3->L5, or not at all? And would they have just used the
            Coax-8, or overlaid Coax-20 or 22?

            [I wonder if L3 buildings were large enough for L4, and if L5 took less
            space? I'd SWAG a 8-tube L4 or L5 might fit into the L3 space..]
          • David
            ... Ahh, I ve yet to find a writeup on L3I vice L3, much less Coax-12. Some BSTJ s seem to say it used Coax-20; I was sure I d read it was Coax-8. I was
            Message 5 of 13 , Nov 3, 2013
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              On 11/3/13 1:36 PM, ozob99@... wrote:

              > The only upgrade I've heard of since the initial {12} tube L3I (1961)
              > was Philips P-140 on the original cable between Monrovia-Williamstown; I
              > don't know if P-140 was added to sections North of Monrovia or West of
              > Williamstown; however,as mentioned previously, Phillips was added to the
              > far West Socorro-Mojave section.

              Ahh, I've yet to find a writeup on L3I vice L3, much less Coax-12. Some
              BSTJ's seem to say it used Coax-20; I was sure I'd read it was Coax-8.

              I was wondering if the coax had been overlaid; the two lone tent markers we
              found were ancient so I thought not.

              But the L3I->P140 would have required repeater vaults be added between the
              4-mile L3I ones, correct?

              [What do L3I repeaters look like?]
            • ozob99
              AFAIK the Airmont-Mojave L3I was all 12 tube, but there could have been an 8 tube section; I never heard of L3I using a 20 tube section; but I think Plano lL
              Message 6 of 13 , Nov 4, 2013
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                 AFAIK the Airmont-Mojave L3I  was all 12 tube, but there could have been an 8 tube section; I never heard of L3I using a 20 tube section; but I think Plano lL had a 20 tube regular L3 cable to Chicago.


                L3I repeaters are standard L3 repeaters, but mounted in spring/rubber racks to absorb shock, & of course down in a hardened underground  vault; terminal line bays the same also except for shock mounting.


                FWIW these L3 amps & regulators were also used in TH radio terminals.


                If in fact the P140 required 2 mile repeater spans as I've heard also,that must have been added, perhaps as buried case rather than vaults & huts overhead; I've never heard exactly how it was deployed.


                ATTPROJ on this list did extensive L3I research a few years ago,if he's still on perhaps he can expound on this.



                ---In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, <coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                On 11/3/13 1:36 PM, ozob99@... wrote:

                > The only upgrade I've heard of since the initial {12} tube L3I (1961)
                > was Philips P-140 on the original cable between Monrovia-Williamstown; I
                > don't know if P-140 was added to sections North of Monrovia or West of
                > Williamstown; however,as mentioned previously, Phillips was added to the
                > far West Socorro-Mojave section.

                Ahh, I've yet to find a writeup on L3I vice L3, much less Coax-12. Some
                BSTJ's seem to say it used Coax-20; I was sure I'd read it was Coax-8.

                I was wondering if the coax had been overlaid; the two lone tent markers we
                found were ancient so I thought not.

                But the L3I->P140 would have required repeater vaults be added between the
                4-mile L3I ones, correct?

                [What do L3I repeaters look like?]
              • cpe122
                That s curious, I never heard of Coax-20 being used for L3; the biggest coax I heard being used for L3 was a 16 tube trial from Plano to Norway. I never have
                Message 7 of 13 , Nov 4, 2013
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                  That's curious, I never heard of Coax-20 being used for L3; the biggest coax I heard being used for L3 was a 16 tube trial from Plano to Norway.  I never have understood why they mixed and match L3 and L4 at Plano...  One might be able to "date" Coax-20 through the BSTJs.

                  P-140 was known to be overbuilt on L4 routes; P-565 on L5 routes.  Can't say about L3 routes.

                  /cpe


                  ---In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, <ozob99@...> wrote:

                   AFAIK the Airmont-Mojave L3I  was all 12 tube, but there could have been an 8 tube section; I never heard of L3I using a 20 tube section; but I think Plano lL had a 20 tube regular L3 cable to Chicago.


                  L3I repeaters are standard L3 repeaters, but mounted in spring/rubber racks to absorb shock, & of course down in a hardened underground  vault; terminal line bays the same also except for shock mounting.


                  FWIW these L3 amps & regulators were also used in TH radio terminals.


                  If in fact the P140 required 2 mile repeater spans as I've heard also,that must have been added, perhaps as buried case rather than vaults & huts overhead; I've never heard exactly how it was deployed.


                  ATTPROJ on this list did extensive L3I research a few years ago,if he's still on perhaps he can expound on this.



                  ---In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, <coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                  On 11/3/13 1:36 PM, ozob99@... wrote:

                  > The only upgrade I've heard of since the initial {12} tube L3I (1961)
                  > was Philips P-140 on the original cable between Monrovia-Williamstown; I
                  > don't know if P-140 was added to sections North of Monrovia or West of
                  > Williamstown; however,as mentioned previously, Phillips was added to the
                  > far West Socorro-Mojave section.

                  Ahh, I've yet to find a writeup on L3I vice L3, much less Coax-12. Some
                  BSTJ's seem to say it used Coax-20; I was sure I'd read it was Coax-8.

                  I was wondering if the coax had been overlaid; the two lone tent markers we
                  found were ancient so I thought not.

                  But the L3I->P140 would have required repeater vaults be added between the
                  4-mile L3I ones, correct?

                  [What do L3I repeaters look like?]
                • ozob99
                  My comment on 20 tube L3 is based on a brief tour of Plano in the 1970 s, where this was stated as a unique facility going to ? I thought it was Chicago but
                  Message 8 of 13 , Nov 4, 2013
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                     My comment on 20 tube L3 is based on a brief tour of Plano in the 1970's, where this was stated as a unique facility going to ? I thought it was Chicago but may have been another location.


                    The P-140 on L3(I) is based on this documentation: 




                    snippet from:


                    http://www.nps.gov/hfc/pdf/ip/moja-lrip.pdf


                    "During the 1960s the American Telephone and 

                    Telegraph Corporation (AT&T) constructed an 

                    underground communications cable network 

                    throughout the United States. In the early 1980s 

                    the system was upgraded to accommodate current 

                    technological advances using Phillips technology; 

                    hence, it was renamed the P140 coaxial cable 

                    system.  AT&T, which owns and operates 

                    approximately 709 miles of the system between 

                    Mojave, California, and Socorro, New Mexico, has 

                    removed communications cable, marker posts, 

                    manholes, and repeater stations (incompatible 

                    with the company’s current fiber optic network) 

                    from a 220-mile right-of-way that crosses the park. 

                    A vegetation restoration project associated with 

                    the removal will be completed in the summer of 

                    2003. "


                    The L3I main stations in this section were:



                    Socorro
                    Quemado RS
                    Holbrook RS
                    Flagstaff RS
                    Seligman RS
                    Kingman RS2
                    Baker RS
                    Mojave RS


                    A related article:


                    http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/51613939/



                    The Philips P-140 manuals at Oak Hill are the basis for the assumption P-140 was also in that section.


                    IIRC coax 20 was part of the initial L4 deployment in 1966-7.


                    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------





                    ---In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, <coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                    That's curious, I never heard of Coax-20 being used for L3; the biggest coax I heard being used for L3 was a 16 tube trial from Plano to Norway.  I never have understood why they mixed and match L3 and L4 at Plano...  One might be able to "date" Coax-20 through the BSTJs.

                    P-140 was known to be overbuilt on L4 routes; P-565 on L5 routes.  Can't say about L3 routes.

                    /cpe


                    ---In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, <ozob99@...> wrote:

                     AFAIK the Airmont-Mojave L3I  was all 12 tube, but there could have been an 8 tube section; I never heard of L3I using a 20 tube section; but I think Plano lL had a 20 tube regular L3 cable to Chicago.


                    L3I repeaters are standard L3 repeaters, but mounted in spring/rubber racks to absorb shock, & of course down in a hardened underground  vault; terminal line bays the same also except for shock mounting.


                    FWIW these L3 amps & regulators were also used in TH radio terminals.


                    If in fact the P140 required 2 mile repeater spans as I've heard also,that must have been added, perhaps as buried case rather than vaults & huts overhead; I've never heard exactly how it was deployed.


                    ATTPROJ on this list did extensive L3I research a few years ago,if he's still on perhaps he can expound on this.



                    ---In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, <coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                    O
                  • David
                    ... bstj48-4-1065.pdf page 1066 dates Coax-12 to the transcontinental L-3 system between Maryland and California. I assume that means L3I. Coax-12 was
                    Message 9 of 13 , Nov 5, 2013
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                      On 11/4/13 7:29 PM, cpe122@... wrote:

                      > That's curious, I never heard of Coax-20 being used for L3; the biggest
                      > coax I heard being used for L3 was a 16 tube trial from Plano to Norway.
                      > I never have understood why they mixed and match L3 and L4 at Plano...
                      > One might be able to "date" Coax-20 through the BSTJs.


                      bstj48-4-1065.pdf page 1066 dates Coax-12 to the "transcontinental L-3
                      system between Maryland and California." I assume that means L3I. Coax-12
                      was discontinued in 1964.

                      Later it says the first Coax-20 was 1964 between Norway and Plano. That had
                      to be L3 but maybe that would be considered a trial.
                    • David
                      ... bstj48-4-821.pdf page 835 makes a contrast between L3I and L4 repeaters; in L3I the vaults were somehow waterproofed; in L4 the equipment within was. I
                      Message 10 of 13 , Nov 5, 2013
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                        On 11/4/13 7:29 PM, cpe122@... wrote:

                        > L3I repeaters are standard L3 repeaters, but mounted in spring/rubber
                        > racks to absorb shock,& of course down in a hardened underground
                        > vault; terminal line bays the same also except for shock mounting.

                        bstj48-4-821.pdf page 835 makes a contrast between L3I and L4 repeaters; in
                        L3I the vaults were somehow waterproofed; in L4 the equipment within was.

                        I have to wonder how you keep a buried vault unflooded, without a sump
                        pump...Condensation along will accumulate.
                      • ozob99
                        L3 repeaters were tightly sealed with gaskets, & dessicant packs placed within after maintenance, so maybe not completely waterproof, water resistant if a leak
                        Message 11 of 13 , Nov 5, 2013
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                           L3 repeaters were tightly sealed with gaskets, & dessicant packs placed within after maintenance, so maybe not completely waterproof, water resistant if a leak developed in the vault.



                          ---In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, <wb8foz@...> wrote:

                          On 11/4/13 7:29 PM, cpe122@... wrote:

                          > L3I repeaters are standard L3 repeaters, but mounted in spring/rubber
                          > racks to absorb shock,& of course down in a hardened underground
                          > vault; terminal line bays the same also except for shock mounting.

                          bstj48-4-821.pdf page 835 makes a contrast between L3I and L4 repeaters; in
                          L3I the vaults were somehow waterproofed; in L4 the equipment within was.

                          I have to wonder how you keep a buried vault unflooded, without a sump
                          pump...Condensation along will accumulate.
                        • cpe122
                          --In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, wrote: ... Oct. of 65? That doesn t seem right. I think the transcon L-4 was lit up in
                          Message 12 of 13 , Nov 5, 2013
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                            --In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, <coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                            On 11/4/13 7:29 PM, cpe122@... wrote:

                            > That's curious, I never heard of Coax-20 being used for L3; the biggest
                            > coax I heard being used for L3 was a 16 tube trial from Plano to Norway.
                            > I never have understood why they mixed and match L3 and L4 at Plano...
                            > One might be able to "date" Coax-20 through the BSTJs.


                            >bstj48-4-1065.pdf page 1066 dates Coax-12 to the "transcontinental L-3
                            >system between Maryland and California."

                            Oct. of '65?  That doesn't seem right.  I think the transcon L-4 was lit up in '66...

                            >I assume that means L3I.

                            >Coax-12 was discontinued in 1964.

                            Is that to say all of the 12 tube deployments of L-4 were all in the first year of L-4?

                            Later it says the first Coax-20 was 1964 between Norway and Plano. That had
                            to be L3 but maybe that would be considered a trial.

                            That sounds right; a coax-2 trial just before the L-4 was built.

                            /cpe


                          • ozob99
                            ... --In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, wrote: ... Oct. of 65? That doesn t seem right. I think the transcon L-4 was lit up in
                            Message 13 of 13 , Nov 6, 2013
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                              ---In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, <cpe122@...> wrote:

                              --In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, <coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                              On 11/4/13 7:29 PM, cpe122@... wrote:

                              > That's curious, I never heard of Coax-20 being used for L3; the biggest
                              > coax I heard being used for L3 was a 16 tube trial from Plano to Norway.
                              > I never have understood why they mixed and match L3 and L4 at Plano...
                              > One might be able to "date" Coax-20 through the BSTJs.


                              >bstj48-4-1065.pdf page 1066 dates Coax-12 to the "transcontinental L-3
                              >system between Maryland and California."

                              Oct. of '65?  That doesn't seem right.  I think the transcon L-4 was lit up in '66...

                              According to the BSTJ the first service was Oct 1967 on the Boston-Miami route.



                              >I assume that means L3I.

                              >Coax-12 was discontinued in 1964.

                              Is that to say all of the 12 tube deployments of L-4 were all in the first year of L-4?

                              AFAIK There were no 12 tube L4 routes

                              Later it says the first Coax-20 was 1964 between Norway and Plano. That had
                              to be L3 but maybe that would be considered a trial.

                              That sounds right; a coax-2 trial just before the L-4 was built.

                              /cpe


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