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Project Office Conspiracies

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  • ozob99
    Have surfaced over the years; here's 3 more sites with assorted misinformation on  Charlottesville 2:
    Message 1 of 30 , Sep 3, 2013
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      Have surfaced over the years; here's 3 more sites with assorted misinformation on  Charlottesville 2:

      http://waldo.jaquith.org/blog/2006/06/southwest-mountains-facility/
      http://wikimapia.org/98088/Peters-Mountain-Spook-Facility
      http://pulsescan.blogspot.com/2011/08/8252011-underground-military-base-near.html
      Even self described "insiders" get it wrong:
      "Not part of the AUTOVON network. I worked in one of those facilities for 10 years and this one was not on that network. "
         
      Another site with Charlottesville 2 photos :

      https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.205762819168.126476.205719834168&type=1
    • Mike Walker
      What I don t understand about the Project Offices is this: are they or are they notùsome of them, at leastùstill in use? I ve read that at least one was sold
      Message 2 of 30 , Sep 3, 2013
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        What I don't understand about the Project Offices is this: are they or are
        they not�some of them, at least�still in use? I've read that at least one
        was sold off to a private landowner (which seems confirmed via the TV news
        spot posted here) and that the North Carolina one is closed and possibly
        for sale? But I've also called AT&T and asked about the Project Offices
        (I'm a journalist and was planning on doing a piece for a major national
        news website on them) and AT&T is still not prepared to comment at all
        about them. So what's up�at least as far as is known? Are they operational
        or not?

        Mike


        On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 4:31 PM, <ozob99@...> wrote:

        > **
        >
        >
        > Have surfaced over the years; here's 3 more sites with assorted
        > misinformation on Charlottesville 2:
        >
        > http://waldo.jaquith.org/blog/2006/06/southwest-mountains-facility/
        > http://wikimapia.org/98088/Peters-Mountain-Spook-Facility
        >
        > http://pulsescan.blogspot.com/2011/08/8252011-underground-military-base-near.html
        > Even self described "insiders" get it wrong:
        > "Not part of the AUTOVON network. I worked in one of those facilities for
        > 10 years and this one was not on that network. "
        >
        > Another site with Charlottesville 2 photos :
        >
        >
        > https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.205762819168.126476.205719834168&type=1
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Blake Bowers
        Yes, some of the project offices have been repurposed and are in use to varying degrees. ... From: coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com
        Message 3 of 30 , Sep 3, 2013
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          Yes, some of the project offices have been repurposed and are in use to
          varying degrees.



          -----Original Message-----
          From: coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com [mailto:coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com] On
          Behalf Of Mike Walker
          Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2013 6:44 PM
          To: coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [coldwarcomms] Project Office Conspiracies

          What I don't understand about the Project Offices is this: are they or are
          they not-some of them, at least-still in use? I've read that at least one
          was sold off to a private landowner (which seems confirmed via the TV news
          spot posted here) and that the North Carolina one is closed and possibly
          for sale? But I've also called AT&T and asked about the Project Offices
          (I'm a journalist and was planning on doing a piece for a major national
          news website on them) and AT&T is still not prepared to comment at all
          about them. So what's up-at least as far as is known? Are they operational
          or not?

          Mike


          On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 4:31 PM, <ozob99@...> wrote:

          > **
          >
          >
          > Have surfaced over the years; here's 3 more sites with assorted
          > misinformation on Charlottesville 2:
          >
          > http://waldo.jaquith.org/blog/2006/06/southwest-mountains-facility/
          > http://wikimapia.org/98088/Peters-Mountain-Spook-Facility
          >
          >
          http://pulsescan.blogspot.com/2011/08/8252011-underground-military-base-near
          .html
          > Even self described "insiders" get it wrong:
          > "Not part of the AUTOVON network. I worked in one of those facilities for
          > 10 years and this one was not on that network. "
          >
          > Another site with Charlottesville 2 photos :
          >
          >
          >
          https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.205762819168.126476.205719834168&t
          ype=1
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



          ------------------------------------

          Yahoo! Groups Links
        • David
          ... When the one (not awake yet so the name escapes me) got a new Deathstar helipad paint job; and I casually mentioned to a friend Inside, he immediately
          Message 4 of 30 , Sep 4, 2013
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            On 9/4/13 12:24 AM, Blake Bowers wrote:

            > Yes, some of the project offices have been repurposed and are in use to
            > varying degrees.


            When the one (not awake yet so the "name" escapes me) got a new Deathstar
            helipad paint job; and I casually mentioned to a friend Inside, he
            immediately said "No Comment."

            [Maybe Area 51 got too crowded with alien corpses??]
          • Dexter McIntyre W4DEX
            ... Ask Snowden. Dex
            Message 5 of 30 , Sep 4, 2013
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              David wrote:
              >
              >
              > On 9/4/13 12:24 AM, Blake Bowers wrote:
              >
              > > Yes, some of the project offices have been repurposed and are in use to
              > > varying degrees.
              >
              > When the one (not awake yet so the "name" escapes me) got a new Deathstar
              > helipad paint job; and I casually mentioned to a friend Inside, he
              > immediately said "No Comment."
              >
              Ask Snowden.

              Dex
            • Mike Walker
              *When the one (not awake yet so the name escapes me) got a new Deathstar helipad paint job; and I casually mentioned to a friend Inside, he immediately said
              Message 6 of 30 , Sep 4, 2013
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                When the one (not awake yet so the "name" escapes me) got a new Deathstar 
                helipad paint job; and I casually mentioned to a friend Inside, he 
                immediately said "No Comment."


                And this is an example of exactly what I don't understand: AT&T is so very hush-hush over these facilities yet at least one is closed and sold off, what is known of the others indicates they're outdated and probably of little current use, but all the same some have upgrades including a helipad that broadcasts loud and clear to anyone in the air "look at this AT&T facility on a mountaintop!!!". Folks, it's just very . . . strange.

                Not X-Files strange, but more like Kafka strange.


                On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 11:12 AM, David <wb8foz@...> wrote:
                 

                On 9/4/13 12:24 AM, Blake Bowers wrote:

                > Yes, some of the project offices have been repurposed and are in use to
                > varying degrees.

                When the one (not awake yet so the "name" escapes me) got a new Deathstar
                helipad paint job; and I casually mentioned to a friend Inside, he
                immediately said "No Comment."

                [Maybe Area 51 got too crowded with alien corpses??]


              • ozob99
                Imagery and anecdotal descriptions in the last decade show significant remodeling at Charlottesville 2 & Hagerstown 2, suggesting they are still active for
                Message 7 of 30 , Sep 4, 2013
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                   Imagery and anecdotal descriptions in the last decade show significant "remodeling" at Charlottesville 2 & Hagerstown 2, suggesting they are still active for some purpose; I'd guess

                  still COG,COO,EOC related.


                  Whether any AT&T employees work there now is unknown to me. 

                  A check of recent CWA union contract work locations would confirm this.


                  I think you should direct your inquiries to this organization:


                  http://www.dhs.gov/about-office-public-affairs


                  I wouldn't expect an answer.



                  Mentions of new fiber at Hagerstown 2 are confirmed by this 2004 news article:


                  http://articles.herald-mail.com/2004-07-21/news/25013099_1_directional-drilling-accident-crew-members




                  Keep in mind the one sold (Buckingham) was simply a tropo repeater much smaller than the others; and if Chatham has not been repurposed we might assume it was too far south of DC metro area for todays needs.













                  --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, <coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                  When the one (not awake yet so the "name" escapes me) got a new Deathstar 
                  helipad paint job; and I casually mentioned to a friend Inside, he 
                  immediately said "No Comment."


                  And this is an example of exactly what I don't understand: AT&T is so very hush-hush over these facilities yet at least one is closed and sold off, what is known of the others indicates they're outdated and probably of little current use, but all the same some have upgrades including a helipad that broadcasts loud and clear to anyone in the air "look at this AT&T facility on a mountaintop!!!". Folks, it's just very . . . strange.

                  Not X-Files strange, but more like Kafka strange.


                  On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 11:12 AM, David <wb8foz@...> wrote:
                   
                  On 9/4/13 12:24 AM, Blake Bowers wrote:

                  > Yes, some of the project offices have been repurposed and are in use to
                  > varying degrees.

                  When the one (not awake yet so the "name" escapes me) got a new Deathstar
                  helipad paint job; and I casually mentioned to a friend Inside, he
                  immediately said "No Comment."

                  [Maybe Area 51 got too crowded with alien corpses??]


                • David
                  ... Not to me. a) The originally troposcatter functionally is as dead as Redstone boosters. b) There s still potential value in the location and structures,
                  Message 8 of 30 , Sep 4, 2013
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                    On 9/4/13 3:36 PM, Mike Walker wrote:

                    > And this is an example of exactly what I don't understand: AT&T is so very
                    > hush-hush over these facilities yet at least one is closed and sold off,
                    > what is known of the others indicates they're outdated and probably of
                    > little current use, but all the same some have upgrades including a helipad
                    > that broadcasts loud and clear to anyone in the air "look at this AT&T
                    > facility on a mountaintop!!!". Folks, it's just very . . . strange.



                    Not to me.

                    a) The originally troposcatter functionally is as dead as Redstone boosters.

                    b) There's still potential value in the location and structures, for new
                    needs. Lots of concrete, generators, HVAC, utilities, etc.

                    c) With the right need, it's a fit. Without....

                    This is not new. I can guarantee you will find no more L3/L4/L5 in use at
                    Dranesville, Medina or Bluffton, but a rather lot of glass.

                    In other cases, such as Hiram, Lillyville & Buckingham; no fit, so out the
                    door.

                    As for the paint, PR people love to blow their own horn, I guess.
                  • David
                    ... They were installing underground fiber-optic cables from Hagerstown to Hearthstone Mountain near Clear Spring for AT&T, he said. Good find! Stupid
                    Message 9 of 30 , Sep 4, 2013
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                      On 9/4/13 3:50 PM, ozob99@... wrote:


                      >
                      > Mentions of new fiber at Hagerstown 2 are confirmed by this 2004 news article:
                      >
                      >
                      > <http://articles.herald-mail.com/2004-07-21/news/25013099_1_directional-drilling-accident-crew-members>

                      "They were installing underground fiber-optic cables from Hagerstown to
                      Hearthstone Mountain near Clear Spring for AT&T, he said."

                      Good find!

                      Stupid tragedy.
                    • Polo Hat
                      Mike, over the years, you just don t seem to be... evolving... much here. It s great that you claim not to understand their past or current missions, but then
                      Message 10 of 30 , Sep 4, 2013
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                        Mike, over the years, you just don't seem to be... evolving... much here.

                          It's great that you claim not to understand their past or current missions, but then you have the audacity to make statements like "what is known of the others indicates they're outdated and probably of little current use..."   I assert that your chronic confusion about them is of your own making or deficiency.

                        AT&T is "hush-hush" over them because any release of information about the sites besides a very basic statement of their existence needs to either come from the AT&T customer, and/or the organization that operates one or more of the sites, under AT&T cover, and any wonderment by us isn't exactly compelling enough to cause official information to be released.


                        On Wednesday, September 4, 2013, Mike Walker wrote:
                         

                        When the one (not awake yet so the "name" escapes me) got a new Deathstar 
                        helipad paint job; and I casually mentioned to a friend Inside, he 
                        immediately said "No Comment."


                        And this is an example of exactly what I don't understand: AT&T is so very hush-hush over these facilities yet at least one is closed and sold off, what is known of the others indicates they're outdated and probably of little current use, but all the same some have upgrades including a helipad that broadcasts loud and clear to anyone in the air "look at this AT&T facility on a mountaintop!!!". Folks, it's just very . . . strange.

                        Not X-Files strange, but more like Kafka strange.

                      • John K Scoggin, Jr
                        Nothing at all strange - remember, it s probably Government Work . When it s black budget, they can t spend it fast enough. Other People s Money. And the
                        Message 11 of 30 , Sep 4, 2013
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                          Nothing at all strange – remember, it’s probably “Government Work”. When it’s black budget, they can’t spend it fast enough. Other People’s Money.

                           

                          And the Deathstar on the helipad might just be their funny little corporate way of thumbing their noses at the Other’s recon birds and the Google Earth fanboys, “nya, nya, nya, guess what we’re doing here…”. Gr

                           

                          john

                           

                          From: coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com [mailto:coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Polo Hat
                          Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2013 3:57 PM
                          To: coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [coldwarcomms] Project Office Conspiracies

                           

                           

                          Mike, over the years, you just don't seem to be... evolving... much here.

                           

                            It's great that you claim not to understand their past or current missions, but then you have the audacity to make statements like "what is known of the others indicates they're outdated and probably of little current use..."   I assert that your chronic confusion about them is of your own making or deficiency.

                           

                          AT&T is "hush-hush" over them because any release of information about the sites besides a very basic statement of their existence needs to either come from the AT&T customer, and/or the organization that operates one or more of the sites, under AT&T cover, and any wonderment by us isn't exactly compelling enough to cause official information to be released.



                          On Wednesday, September 4, 2013, Mike Walker wrote:

                           

                          When the one (not awake yet so the "name" escapes me) got a new Deathstar 
                          helipad paint job; and I casually mentioned to a friend Inside, he 
                          immediately said "No Comment."

                           

                          And this is an example of exactly what I don't understand: AT&T is so very hush-hush over these facilities yet at least one is closed and sold off, what is known of the others indicates they're outdated and probably of little current use, but all the same some have upgrades including a helipad that broadcasts loud and clear to anyone in the air "look at this AT&T facility on a mountaintop!!!". Folks, it's just very . . . strange.

                           

                          Not X-Files strange, but more like Kafka strange.

                        • Mike Walker
                          Polohat, I don t think I deserved the tenor of your comment. I may not have the expertise on these sites some group members have, but you have no reason to be
                          Message 12 of 30 , Sep 4, 2013
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                            Polohat, I don't think I deserved the tenor of your comment. I may not have the expertise on these sites some group members have, but you have no reason to be rude over that. It always pays to be a gentleman. 

                            Here is what I know of the Project Offices and why I phrased my remarks as I did:

                            1) At one point in the Cold War, these sites were used for emergency communications for national command authorities. It appears more recent technological advances have made the line-of-sight and toposcatter microwaves links formed by these sites out of date for the purpose of such government communications. 

                            2) One site was sold to a private landowner. Obviously, it was no longer needed and anything "secret" was removed. That would also portend that the general design of that site at least doesn't give away much about the overall mission of these sites in general, if it could be sold off in this manner. 

                            3) News reports indicate the North Carolina site was closed up, though still in AT&T or government hands. However, there has also been reports of apparent renovations at that site and others. The aforementioned helipad was repainted at one site years ago. There is on one hand signs of expansion at some sites, and on there other some seem abandoned or at least left as-is. Am I wrong? 

                            4) If you call up the Army, Navy, or Air Force and ask about most any facility you will at least get a polite response along the lines of "that facility is essential to research [or training, or whatever] but we cannot go into much detail about it for national security reasons". However, it is very very rare to see the response of AT&T which is a very blunt "no comment" and even in regard to Albert's website a request to not publish the official names of the Project Offices (which suggests they do each have a specific name?) nor their exact locations, though the locations are no secret whatsoever. I find that very funny. It seems like a lot of over-reaction for sites that appear to probably have been reduced in their importance to our national defense. 

                            Guys, I don't have the experience some of you have. I didn't work for AT&T or serve as a major who had an inside view to many of these things. I have an academic background in architecture, an ample software engineering background, too, and work in journalism. I am very interested in Cold War history—especially the material culture side of things. Forgive me if I was mistaken about any aspects of Project Offices, but here's the things: if I'm off the mark, PLEASE clue me in as far as possible. You know? If I'm wrong, tell me what can be told about these facilities. If you read every one of my posts, you'll not find any AboveTopSecret mutterings about space aliens or the like. I ask what I think are intelligent and valid questions. What I am asking now is this: if the original technological processes of communication employed at the Project Offices are no longer in play, what are some of the repurposed applications of these facilities that could require them to retain the level of secrecy which seems to be provided to them even to this day? What are some ideas? I find the evolution of these facilities fascinating. 


                            Mike


                            On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 4:43 PM, John K Scoggin, Jr <aat3bf@...> wrote:
                             

                            Nothing at all strange – remember, it’s probably “Government Work”. When it’s black budget, they can’t spend it fast enough. Other People’s Money.

                             

                            And the Deathstar on the helipad might just be their funny little corporate way of thumbing their noses at the Other’s recon birds and the Google Earth fanboys, “nya, nya, nya, guess what we’re doing here…”. Gr

                             

                            john

                             

                            From: coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com [mailto:coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Polo Hat
                            Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2013 3:57 PM


                            To: coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [coldwarcomms] Project Office Conspiracies

                             

                             

                            Mike, over the years, you just don't seem to be... evolving... much here.

                             

                              It's great that you claim not to understand their past or current missions, but then you have the audacity to make statements like "what is known of the others indicates they're outdated and probably of little current use..."   I assert that your chronic confusion about them is of your own making or deficiency.

                             

                            AT&T is "hush-hush" over them because any release of information about the sites besides a very basic statement of their existence needs to either come from the AT&T customer, and/or the organization that operates one or more of the sites, under AT&T cover, and any wonderment by us isn't exactly compelling enough to cause official information to be released.



                            On Wednesday, September 4, 2013, Mike Walker wrote:

                             

                            When the one (not awake yet so the "name" escapes me) got a new Deathstar 
                            helipad paint job; and I casually mentioned to a friend Inside, he 
                            immediately said "No Comment."

                             

                            And this is an example of exactly what I don't understand: AT&T is so very hush-hush over these facilities yet at least one is closed and sold off, what is known of the others indicates they're outdated and probably of little current use, but all the same some have upgrades including a helipad that broadcasts loud and clear to anyone in the air "look at this AT&T facility on a mountaintop!!!". Folks, it's just very . . . strange.

                             

                            Not X-Files strange, but more like Kafka strange.


                          • Mike Cowen
                            As to nose thumbing, I would have found it more tongue-in-cheek if they had painted a bull s eye or crosshairs on the helipad, without revealing any corporate
                            Message 13 of 30 , Sep 4, 2013
                            • 0 Attachment
                              As to nose thumbing, I would have found it more tongue-in-cheek if they had painted a bull's eye or crosshairs on the helipad, without revealing any corporate ownership of the site.  It's probably safe to assume those coordinates are on some "other's" list, if they don't also have building blueprints to match.

                              Mike




                              At 01:43 PM 9/4/2013, you wrote:
                               

                              Nothing at all strange – remember, it’s probably “Government Work”. When it’s black budget, they can’t spend it fast enough. Other People’s Money.

                               

                              And the Deathstar on the helipad might just be their funny little corporate way of thumbing their noses at the Other’s recon birds and the Google Earth fanboys, “nya, nya, nya, guess what we’re doing here…”. Gr

                               

                              john

                               

                              From: coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com [ mailto:coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Polo Hat
                              Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2013 3:57 PM
                              To: coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [coldwarcomms] Project Office Conspiracies

                               

                               

                              Mike, over the years, you just don't seem to be... evolving... much here.

                               

                                It's great that you claim not to understand their past or current missions, but then you have the audacity to make statements like "what is known of the others indicates they're outdated and probably of little current use..."   I assert that your chronic confusion about them is of your own making or deficiency.

                               

                              AT&T is "hush-hush" over them because any release of information about the sites besides a very basic statement of their existence needs to either come from the AT&T customer, and/or the organization that operates one or more of the sites, under AT&T cover, and any wonderment by us isn't exactly compelling enough to cause official information to be released.



                              On Wednesday, September 4, 2013, Mike Walker wrote:

                               

                              When the one (not awake yet so the "name" escapes me) got a new Deathstar
                              helipad paint job; and I casually mentioned to a friend Inside, he
                              immediately said "No Comment."

                               

                              ---------------------------------------------------------------
                                Mike Cowen      Practice random acts of kindness
                                                            and selfless acts of beauty.
                               mcowen@...            -Anonymous

                            • Mike Cowen
                              Mike, Don t take it too personally. Tim/Polo Hat/Hooligan has been known to go off on list members in great disproportion to any perceived wrongdoing . I ve
                              Message 14 of 30 , Sep 4, 2013
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Mike,

                                Don't take it too personally.  Tim/Polo Hat/Hooligan has been known to go off on list members in great disproportion to any perceived "wrongdoing".  I've been there myself, despite the fact we generally get along.  I have no idea what compels him to do this.  He is very knowledgeable, and has gone to considerable lengths to photodocument, and preserve the history of many of the western sites we discuss here.  While I'm grateful for his contributions, there's no excuse for the haughtiness or vitriol that pops up on occasion.

                                As to Project Offices, my best suggestion is to scour the list archives for tidbits.  Remember, truth is stranger than fiction, and to no greater extent than when applied to national security.  You have good questions, but answers may be elusive due to the ongoing activities at some sites.  Don't look directly at things to see what might lie just below the surface.  Personally, I don't "know".  However, I'll offer one -speculation- that seems plausible in my eyes.  Take Dex's earlier comment with a grain of salt.  If you were a 3-letter organization with a new, massive data processing facility in Utah, you'd still need various "collection points" to gather that data from different locations to be analyzed.  Can you think of a better place to siphon that data than a nuke hardened underground facility already sitting on ludicrous fiber bandwidth connected to various national and international circuits?  It's my own "WA" guess, complete with the warranty "if you break it, you own both parts".  Could I be completely wrong?  Without question.  However, despite my disdain for -that- particular mission, I'd be hard pressed to name a better type of facility to use for the task.  One of the advantages of that sort of thing with current technology is it requires extremely little Human ministration after re-fitting.  A site could easily and intentionally look unused on the surface, while still being -very- active below ground with no people present.

                                FWIW,
                                Mike





                                At 03:12 PM 9/4/2013, you wrote:
                                 

                                Polohat, I don't think I deserved the tenor of your comment. I may not have the expertise on these sites some group members have, but you have no reason to be rude over that. It always pays to be a gentleman.

                                Here is what I know of the Project Offices and why I phrased my remarks as I did:

                                1) At one point in the Cold War, these sites were used for emergency communications for national command authorities. It appears more recent technological advances have made the line-of-sight and toposcatter microwaves links formed by these sites out of date for the purpose of such government communications.

                                2) One site was sold to a private landowner. Obviously, it was no longer needed and anything "secret" was removed. That would also portend that the general design of that site at least doesn't give away much about the overall mission of these sites in general, if it could be sold off in this manner.

                                3) News reports indicate the North Carolina site was closed up, though still in AT&T or government hands. However, there has also been reports of apparent renovations at that site and others. The aforementioned helipad was repainted at one site years ago. There is on one hand signs of expansion at some sites, and on there other some seem abandoned or at least left as-is. Am I wrong?

                                4) If you call up the Army, Navy, or Air Force and ask about most any facility you will at least get a polite response along the lines of "that facility is essential to research [or training, or whatever] but we cannot go into much detail about it for national security reasons". However, it is very very rare to see the response of AT&T which is a very blunt "no comment" and even in regard to Albert's website a request to not publish the official names of the Project Offices (which suggests they do each have a specific name?) nor their exact locations, though the locations are no secret whatsoever. I find that very funny. It seems like a lot of over-reaction for sites that appear to probably have been reduced in their importance to our national defense.

                                Guys, I don't have the experience some of you have. I didn't work for AT&T or serve as a major who had an inside view to many of these things. I have an academic background in architecture, an ample software engineering background, too, and work in journalism. I am very interested in Cold War history—especially the material culture side of things. Forgive me if I was mistaken about any aspects of Project Offices, but here's the things: if I'm off the mark, PLEASE clue me in as far as possible. You know? If I'm wrong, tell me what can be told about these facilities. If you read every one of my posts, you'll not find any AboveTopSecret mutterings about space aliens or the like. I ask what I think are intelligent and valid questions. What I am asking now is this: if the original technological processes of communication employed at the Project Offices are no longer in play, what are some of the repurposed applications of these facilities that could require them to retain the level of secrecy which seems to be provided to them even to this day? What are some ideas? I find the evolution of these facilities fascinating.


                                Mike


                                On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 4:43 PM, John K Scoggin, Jr <aat3bf@...> wrote:
                                 

                                Nothing at all strange – remember, it’s probably “Government Work”. When it’s black budget, they can’t spend it fast enough. Other People’s Money.

                                 

                                And the Deathstar on the helipad might just be their funny little corporate way of thumbing their noses at the Other’s recon birds and the Google Earth fanboys, “nya, nya, nya, guess what we’re doing here…”. Gr

                                 

                                john

                                 

                                From: coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com [ mailto:coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Polo Hat
                                Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2013 3:57 PM

                                To: coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [coldwarcomms] Project Office Conspiracies

                                 

                                 

                                Mike, over the years, you just don't seem to be... evolving... much here.

                                 

                                  It's great that you claim not to understand their past or current missions, but then you have the audacity to make statements like "what is known of the others indicates they're outdated and probably of little current use..."   I assert that your chronic confusion about them is of your own making or deficiency.

                                 

                                AT&T is "hush-hush" over them because any release of information about the sites besides a very basic statement of their existence needs to either come from the AT&T customer, and/or the organization that operates one or more of the sites, under AT&T cover, and any wonderment by us isn't exactly compelling enough to cause official information to be released.



                                On Wednesday, September 4, 2013, Mike Walker wrote:

                                 

                                When the one (not awake yet so the "name" escapes me) got a new Deathstar
                                helipad paint job; and I casually mentioned to a friend Inside, he
                                immediately said "No Comment."

                                 

                                And this is an example of exactly what I don't understand: AT&T is so very hush-hush over these facilities yet at least one is closed and sold off, what is known of the others indicates they're outdated and probably of little current use, but all the same some have upgrades including a helipad that broadcasts loud and clear to anyone in the air "look at this AT&T facility on a mountaintop!!!". Folks, it's just very . . . strange.

                                 

                                Not X-Files strange, but more like Kafka strange.


                                ---------------------------------------------------------------
                                  Mike Cowen      Practice random acts of kindness
                                                              and selfless acts of beauty.
                                 mcowen@...            -Anonymous

                              • ozob99
                                Remember the Quantico circuits scandal in 2008; if you are right we now have the Hagerstown & Charlottesville circuits ; however if NSA involved I d suspect
                                Message 15 of 30 , Sep 4, 2013
                                • 0 Attachment

                                  Remember the "Quantico circuits" scandal in 2008; if you are right we now have the "Hagerstown & Charlottesville circuits"; however if NSA involved I'd suspect a consolidation fiber/satellite hub, not data storage, given the limited space for such things of their scale(unless they dug out 10X more around it).



                                  --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, <coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                  Mike,

                                  Don't take it too personally.  Tim/Polo Hat/Hooligan has been known to go off on list members in great disproportion to any perceived "wrongdoing".  I've been there myself, despite the fact we generally get along.  I have no idea what compels him to do this.  He is very knowledgeable, and has gone to considerable lengths to photodocument, and preserve the history of many of the western sites we discuss here.  While I'm grateful for his contributions, there's no excuse for the haughtiness or vitriol that pops up on occasion.

                                  As to Project Offices, my best suggestion is to scour the list archives for tidbits.  Remember, truth is stranger than fiction, and to no greater extent than when applied to national security.  You have good questions, but answers may be elusive due to the ongoing activities at some sites.  Don't look directly at things to see what might lie just below the surface.  Personally, I don't "know".  However, I'll offer one -speculation- that seems plausible in my eyes.  Take Dex's earlier comment with a grain of salt.  If you were a 3-letter organization with a new, massive data processing facility in Utah, you'd still need various "collection points" to gather that data from different locations to be analyzed.  Can you think of a better place to siphon that data than a nuke hardened underground facility already sitting on ludicrous fiber bandwidth connected to various national and international circuits?  It's my own "WA" guess, complete with the warranty "if you break it, you own both parts".  Could I be completely wrong?  Without question.  However, despite my disdain for -that- particular mission, I'd be hard pressed to name a better type of facility to use for the task.  One of the advantages of that sort of thing with current technology is it requires extremely little Human ministration after re-fitting.  A site could easily and intentionally look unused on the surface, while still being -very- active below ground with no people present.

                                  FWIW,
                                  Mike





                                  At 03:12 PM 9/4/2013, you wrote:
                                   

                                  Polohat, I don't think I deserved the tenor of your comment. I may not have the expertise on these sites some group members have, but you have no reason to be rude over that. It always pays to be a gentleman.

                                  Here is what I know of the Project Offices and why I phrased my remarks as I did:

                                  1) At one point in the Cold War, these sites were used for emergency communications for national command authorities. It appears more recent technological advances have made the line-of-sight and toposcatter microwaves links formed by these sites out of date for the purpose of such government communications.

                                  2) One site was sold to a private landowner. Obviously, it was no longer needed and anything "secret" was removed. That would also portend that the general design of that site at least doesn't give away much about the overall mission of these sites in general, if it could be sold off in this manner.

                                  3) News reports indicate the North Carolina site was closed up, though still in AT&T or government hands. However, there has also been reports of apparent renovations at that site and others. The aforementioned helipad was repainted at one site years ago. There is on one hand signs of expansion at some sites, and on there other some seem abandoned or at least left as-is. Am I wrong?

                                  4) If you call up the Army, Navy, or Air Force and ask about most any facility you will at least get a polite response along the lines of "that facility is essential to research [or training, or whatever] but we cannot go into much detail about it for national security reasons". However, it is very very rare to see the response of AT&T which is a very blunt "no comment" and even in regard to Albert's website a request to not publish the official names of the Project Offices (which suggests they do each have a specific name?) nor their exact locations, though the locations are no secret whatsoever. I find that very funny. It seems like a lot of over-reaction for sites that appear to probably have been reduced in their importance to our national defense.

                                  Guys, I don't have the experience some of you have. I didn't work for AT&T or serve as a major who had an inside view to many of these things. I have an academic background in architecture, an ample software engineering background, too, and work in journalism. I am very interested in Cold War history—especially the material culture side of things. Forgive me if I was mistaken about any aspects of Project Offices, but here's the things: if I'm off the mark, PLEASE clue me in as far as possible. You know? If I'm wrong, tell me what can be told about these facilities. If you read every one of my posts, you'll not find any AboveTopSecret mutterings about space aliens or the like. I ask what I think are intelligent and valid questions. What I am asking now is this: if the original technological processes of communication employed at the Project Offices are no longer in play, what are some of the repurposed applications of these facilities that could require them to retain the level of secrecy which seems to be provided to them even to this day? What are some ideas? I find the evolution of these facilities fascinating.


                                  Mike


                                  On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 4:43 PM, John K Scoggin, Jr <aat3bf@...> wrote:
                                   

                                  Nothing at all strange – remember, it’s probably “Government Work”. When it’s black budget, they can’t spend it fast enough. Other People’s Money.

                                   

                                  And the Deathstar on the helipad might just be their funny little corporate way of thumbing their noses at the Other’s recon birds and the Google Earth fanboys, “nya, nya, nya, guess what we’re doing here…”. Gr

                                   

                                  john

                                   

                                  From: coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com [ mailto:coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Polo Hat
                                  Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2013 3:57 PM

                                  To: coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [coldwarcomms] Project Office Conspiracies

                                   

                                   

                                  Mike, over the years, you just don't seem to be... evolving... much here.

                                   

                                    It's great that you claim not to understand their past or current missions, but then you have the audacity to make statements like "what is known of the others indicates they're outdated and probably of little current use..."   I assert that your chronic confusion about them is of your own making or deficiency.

                                   

                                  AT&T is "hush-hush" over them because any release of information about the sites besides a very basic statement of their existence needs to either come from the AT&T customer, and/or the organization that operates one or more of the sites, under AT&T cover, and any wonderment by us isn't exactly compelling enough to cause official information to be released.



                                  On Wednesday, September 4, 2013, Mike Walker wrote:

                                   

                                  When the one (not awake yet so the "name" escapes me) got a new Deathstar
                                  helipad paint job; and I casually mentioned to a friend Inside, he
                                  immediately said "No Comment."

                                   

                                  And this is an example of exactly what I don't understand: AT&T is so very hush-hush over these facilities yet at least one is closed and sold off, what is known of the others indicates they're outdated and probably of little current use, but all the same some have upgrades including a helipad that broadcasts loud and clear to anyone in the air "look at this AT&T facility on a mountaintop!!!". Folks, it's just very . . . strange.

                                   

                                  Not X-Files strange, but more like Kafka strange.


                                  ---------------------------------------------------------------
                                    Mike Cowen      Practice random acts of kindness
                                                                and selfless acts of beauty.
                                   mcowen@...            -Anonymous

                                • Mike Cowen
                                  Yes, I specifically meant a remote collection point. However, There might be some limited storage capability to cover an oops , or maintenance outage. Given
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Sep 4, 2013
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Yes, I specifically meant a remote collection point.  However, There might be some limited storage capability to cover an "oops", or maintenance outage.

                                    Given how tiny things have become since those facilities were built, and how big those holes are, I'd suspect there's plenty of room for that mission.  Might even have some space left.

                                    Mike


                                    At 05:50 PM 9/4/2013, you wrote:
                                     

                                    Remember the "Quantico circuits" scandal in 2008; if you are right we now have the "Hagerstown & Charlottesville circuits"; however if NSA involved I'd suspect a consolidation fiber/satellite hub, not data storage, given the limited space for such things of their scale(unless they dug out 10X more around it).


                                    --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, <coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                    Mike,

                                    Don't take it too personally.  Tim/Polo Hat/Hooligan has been known to go off on list members in great disproportion to any perceived "wrongdoing".  I've been there myself, despite the fact we generally get along.  I have no idea what compels him to do this.  He is very knowledgeable, and has gone to considerable lengths to photodocument, and preserve the history of many of the western sites we discuss here.  While I'm grateful for his contributions, there's no excuse for the haughtiness or vitriol that pops up on occasion.

                                    As to Project Offices, my best suggestion is to scour the list archives for tidbits.  Remember, truth is stranger than fiction, and to no greater extent than when applied to national security.  You have good questions, but answers may be elusive due to the ongoing activities at some sites.  Don't look directly at things to see what might lie just below the surface.  Personally, I don't "know".  However, I'll offer one -speculation- that seems plausible in my eyes.  Take Dex's earlier comment with a grain of salt.  If you were a 3-letter organization with a new, massive data processing facility in Utah, you'd still need various "collection points" to gather that data from different locations to be analyzed.  Can you think of a better place to siphon that data than a nuke hardened underground facility already sitting on ludicrous fiber bandwidth connected to various national and international circuits?  It's my own "WA" guess, complete with the warranty "if you break it, you own both parts".  Could I be completely wrong?  Without question.  However, despite my disdain for -that- particular mission, I'd be hard pressed to name a better type of facility to use for the task.  One of the advantages of that sort of thing with current technology is it requires extremely little Human ministration after re-fitting.  A site could easily and intentionally look unused on the surface, while still being -very- active below ground with no people present.

                                    FWIW,
                                    Mike





                                    At 03:12 PM 9/4/2013, you wrote:
                                     

                                    Polohat, I don't think I deserved the tenor of your comment. I may not have the expertise on these sites some group members have, but you have no reason to be rude over that. It always pays to be a gentleman.

                                    Here is what I know of the Project Offices and why I phrased my remarks as I did:

                                    1) At one point in the Cold War, these sites were used for emergency communications for national command authorities. It appears more recent technological advances have made the line-of-sight and toposcatter microwaves links formed by these sites out of date for the purpose of such government communications.

                                    2) One site was sold to a private landowner. Obviously, it was no longer needed and anything "secret" was removed. That would also portend that the general design of that site at least doesn't give away much about the overall mission of these sites in general, if it could be sold off in this manner.

                                    3) News reports indicate the North Carolina site was closed up, though still in AT&T or government hands. However, there has also been reports of apparent renovations at that site and others. The aforementioned helipad was repainted at one site years ago. There is on one hand signs of expansion at some sites, and on there other some seem abandoned or at least left as-is. Am I wrong?

                                    4) If you call up the Army, Navy, or Air Force and ask about most any facility you will at least get a polite response along the lines of "that facility is essential to research [or training, or whatever] but we cannot go into much detail about it for national security reasons". However, it is very very rare to see the response of AT&T which is a very blunt "no comment" and even in regard to Albert's website a request to not publish the official names of the Project Offices (which suggests they do each have a specific name?) nor their exact locations, though the locations are no secret whatsoever. I find that very funny. It seems like a lot of over-reaction for sites that appear to probably have been reduced in their importance to our national defense.

                                    Guys, I don't have the experience some of you have. I didn't work for AT&T or serve as a major who had an inside view to many of these things. I have an academic background in architecture, an ample software engineering background, too, and work in journalism. I am very interested in Cold War history—especially the material culture side of things. Forgive me if I was mistaken about any aspects of Project Offices, but here's the things: if I'm off the mark, PLEASE clue me in as far as possible. You know? If I'm wrong, tell me what can be told about these facilities. If you read every one of my posts, you'll not find any AboveTopSecret mutterings about space aliens or the like. I ask what I think are intelligent and valid questions. What I am asking now is this: if the original technological processes of communication employed at the Project Offices are no longer in play, what are some of the repurposed applications of these facilities that could require them to retain the level of secrecy which seems to be provided to them even to this day? What are some ideas? I find the evolution of these facilities fascinating.


                                    Mike


                                    On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 4:43 PM, John K Scoggin, Jr <aat3bf@...> wrote:
                                     
                                    Nothing at all strange – remember, it’s probably “Government Work”. When it’s black budget, they can’t spend it fast enough. Other People’s Money.
                                     
                                    And the Deathstar on the helipad might just be their funny little corporate way of thumbing their noses at the Other’s recon birds and the Google Earth fanboys, “nya, nya, nya, guess what we’re doing here…”. Gr

                                     
                                    john
                                     
                                    From: coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com [ mailto:coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Polo Hat
                                    Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2013 3:57 PM
                                    To: coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [coldwarcomms] Project Office Conspiracies
                                     
                                     
                                    Mike, over the years, you just don't seem to be... evolving... much here.
                                     
                                      It's great that you claim not to understand their past or current missions, but then you have the audacity to make statements like "what is known of the others indicates they're outdated and probably of little current use..."   I assert that your chronic confusion about them is of your own making or deficiency.
                                     
                                    AT&T is "hush-hush" over them because any release of information about the sites besides a very basic statement of their existence needs to either come from the AT&T customer, and/or the organization that operates one or more of the sites, under AT&T cover, and any wonderment by us isn't exactly compelling enough to cause official information to be released.


                                    On Wednesday, September 4, 2013, Mike Walker wrote:
                                     
                                    When the one (not awake yet so the "name" escapes me) got a new Deathstar
                                    helipad paint job; and I casually mentioned to a friend Inside, he
                                    immediately said "No Comment."
                                     
                                    And this is an example of exactly what I don't understand: AT&T is so very hush-hush over these facilities yet at least one is closed and sold off, what is known of the others indicates they're outdated and probably of little current use, but all the same some have upgrades including a helipad that broadcasts loud and clear to anyone in the air "look at this AT&T facility on a mountaintop!!!". Folks, it's just very . . . strange.
                                     
                                    Not X-Files strange, but more like Kafka strange.

                                    ---------------------------------------------------------------
                                      Mike Cowen      Practice random acts of kindness
                                                                  and selfless acts of beauty.
                                     mcowen@...            -Anonymous

                                    ---------------------------------------------------------------
                                      Mike Cowen      Practice random acts of kindness
                                                                  and selfless acts of beauty.
                                     mcowen@...            -Anonymous

                                  • David
                                    ... Iffem I was wondering what was going on, I would wonder how much power was being consumed. PEPCO et.al is badly set up to classify such; although it may be
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Sep 4, 2013
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      On 9/4/13 9:14 PM, Mike Cowen wrote:

                                      > Yes, I specifically meant a remote collection point. However, There
                                      > might be some limited storage capability to cover an "oops", or
                                      > maintenance outage.
                                      >
                                      > Given how tiny things have become since those facilities were built, and
                                      > how big those holes are, I'd suspect there's plenty of room for that
                                      > mission. Might even have some space left.


                                      Iffem I was wondering what was going on, I would wonder how much power was
                                      being consumed. PEPCO et.al is badly set up to classify such; although it
                                      may be easier to just look at waste heat being shed. (Unless they have an
                                      ongoing water pumpout; in which case they could dump the heat to it.)
                                    • Mike Cowen
                                      I had considered the same thing, but when looking at current technology power efficiencies, it s likely -far- below what the facility was originally designed
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Sep 4, 2013
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        I had considered the same thing, but when looking at current
                                        technology power efficiencies, it's likely -far- below what the
                                        facility was originally designed for. Less primary load, less HVAC,
                                        etc. Another consideration is using the Earth as a heat sink. My
                                        hunch is that spot would be pretty neutral (i.e. background) in the
                                        IR spectrum, even in winter.

                                        Mike



                                        At 06:21 PM 9/4/2013, you wrote:
                                        >On 9/4/13 9:14 PM, Mike Cowen wrote:
                                        >
                                        > > Yes, I specifically meant a remote collection point. However, There
                                        > > might be some limited storage capability to cover an "oops", or
                                        > > maintenance outage.
                                        > >
                                        > > Given how tiny things have become since those facilities were built, and
                                        > > how big those holes are, I'd suspect there's plenty of room for that
                                        > > mission. Might even have some space left.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >Iffem I was wondering what was going on, I would wonder how much power was
                                        >being consumed. PEPCO et.al is badly set up to classify such; although it
                                        >may be easier to just look at waste heat being shed. (Unless they have an
                                        >ongoing water pumpout; in which case they could dump the heat to it.)
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >------------------------------------
                                        >
                                        >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        ---------------------------------------------------------------
                                        Mike Cowen Practice random acts of kindness
                                        and selfless acts of beauty.
                                        mcowen@... -Anonymous
                                      • Blake Bowers
                                        The sites that have been kept will most likely be kept forever. They do have specific missions, and are still AT&T facilities, staffed primarily by AT&T
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Sep 4, 2013
                                        • 0 Attachment

                                          The sites that have been kept will most likely be kept forever.  They do have specific missions, and are still AT&T facilities, staffed primarily by AT&T employees.  Vendors are escorted to their specific areas, interior doors are locked, and someone stays with vendors every bit of the time they are there.  No cell phones, no recorders, no cameras (unless that is what you are there to do, as in take pictures of old equipment)

                                           

                                          They will take a peek at your pictures when you leave.

                                           

                                          They are definitely in use – but even walking through them you really don’t know what for.  I suspect nothing more sinister in most cases than data storage, fiber junctions, etc.  Space is beginning to be back at a premium, so they are removing rooms full or RIP’d equipment.

                                           

                                           

                                           


                                          From: coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com [mailto:coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mike Walker
                                          Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2013 2:36 PM
                                          To: coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: Re: [coldwarcomms] Project Office Conspiracies

                                           

                                           

                                          When the one (not awake yet so the "name" escapes me) got a new Deathstar 
                                          helipad paint job; and I casually mentioned to a friend Inside, he 
                                          immediately said "No Comment."

                                           

                                          And this is an example of exactly what I don't understand: AT&T is so very hush-hush over these facilities yet at least one is closed and sold off, what is known of the others indicates they're outdated and probably of little current use, but all the same some have upgrades including a helipad that broadcasts loud and clear to anyone in the air "look at this AT&T facility on a mountaintop!!!". Folks, it's just very . . . strange.

                                           

                                          Not X-Files strange, but more like Kafka strange.

                                           

                                        • wftroskey
                                          So is/was Hearthstone Mountain connected with Cannonball, which is not too far away to the north? Bill ... On 9/4/13 3:50 PM, ozob99@... wrote: Mentions of
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Sep 5, 2013
                                          • 0 Attachment

                                            So is/was Hearthstone Mountain connected with Cannonball, which is not too far away to the north?

                                             

                                             

                                            Bill

                                             



                                            --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, <coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                            On 9/4/13 3:50 PM, ozob99@... wrote:


                                            >
                                            > Mentions of new fiber at Hagerstown 2 are confirmed by this 2004 news article:
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > <http://articles.herald-mail.com/2004-07-21/news/25013099_1_directional-drilling-accident-crew-members>

                                            "They were installing underground fiber-optic cables from Hagerstown to
                                            Hearthstone Mountain near Clear Spring for AT&T, he said."

                                            Good find!

                                            Stupid tragedy.
                                          • ozob99
                                            According to John Cross who was at Cannonball, there was a 50 pair cable;& possibly another to Site R. Snippet from post 23150: Later when Hagerstown 2 was
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Sep 5, 2013
                                            • 0 Attachment

                                              According to John Cross who was at Cannonball, there was a 50 pair cable;& possibly another to Site R.


                                              Snippet from post 23150:


                                              Later when Hagerstown 2 was built, the 50 pair cable mentioned in a previous post(possibly part of the original cable to Cearfoss) to Cannonball may have negated the need for the direct Site R connection, or it could have been continued for some time.


                                              If this was a N cxr route from Cannonball to BRS2(Site R) there would have been N repeaters between Cearfoss & BRS2."


                                              --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, <coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                              So is/was Hearthstone Mountain connected with Cannonball, which is not too far away to the north?

                                               

                                               

                                              Bill

                                               



                                              --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, <coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                              On 9/4/13 3:50 PM, ozob99@... wrote:


                                              >
                                              > Mentions of new fiber at Hagerstown 2 are confirmed by this 2004 news article:
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > <http://articles.herald-mail.com/2004-07-21/news/25013099_1_directional-drilling-accident-crew-members>

                                              "They were installing underground fiber-optic cables from Hagerstown to
                                              Hearthstone Mountain near Clear Spring for AT&T, he said."

                                              Good find!

                                              Stupid tragedy.
                                            • David I. Emery
                                              ... While this might indeed be asking *WAY* too much on a public list, can you in any way comment on what the RIP d equipment being removed is and from what
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Sep 5, 2013
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                On Wed, Sep 04, 2013 at 11:50:16PM -0500, Blake Bowers wrote:
                                                > The sites that have been kept will most likely be kept forever. They do
                                                > have specific missions, and are still AT&T facilities, staffed primarily by
                                                > AT&T employees. Vendors are escorted to their specific areas, interior
                                                > doors are locked, and someone stays with vendors every bit of the time they
                                                > are there. No cell phones, no recorders, no cameras (unless that is what
                                                > you are there to do, as in take pictures of old equipment)
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > They will take a peek at your pictures when you leave.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > They are definitely in use - but even walking through them you really don't
                                                > know what for. I suspect nothing more sinister in most cases than data
                                                > storage, fiber junctions, etc. Space is beginning to be back at a premium,
                                                > so they are removing rooms full or RIP'd equipment.

                                                While this might indeed be asking *WAY* too much on a public list,
                                                can you in any way comment on what the RIP'd equipment being removed
                                                is and from what era ? Switches ? Antique analog mux gear ?, Early
                                                digital cross connect gear ? Old network monitoring gear ?

                                                Stuff from the 70/80s or post 2000 ?

                                                And how much of it is *ahem* obviously spookish (eg Narus DPI boxes)
                                                ... versus all the ordinary stuff you'd expect in a network hub...


                                                --
                                                Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, die@... DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass 02493
                                                "An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten
                                                'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole - in
                                                celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now either."
                                              • Marc's Yahoo Account (original)
                                                I live near a major AT&T project office in MD outside of Washington DC that is still AT&T and am amazed at the perception of lack of OPSec. Gates usually open
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Sep 6, 2013
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  I live near a major AT&T project office in MD outside of Washington DC that is still AT&T and am amazed at the perception of lack of OPSec. Gates usually open with no visible perimeter security. Not that I would venture past the open gate. I understand that most assets are below ground but am surprised at minimalist approach at perimeter. Kinda like what I've seem at some other below grade facilities in Dakotas although they have gates and lots of sensors 

                                                  Sent from my iPad

                                                  On Sep 5, 2013, at 11:53 PM, "David I. Emery" <die@...> wrote:

                                                   

                                                  On Wed, Sep 04, 2013 at 11:50:16PM -0500, Blake Bowers wrote:
                                                  > The sites that have been kept will most likely be kept forever. They do
                                                  > have specific missions, and are still AT&T facilities, staffed primarily by
                                                  > AT&T employees. Vendors are escorted to their specific areas, interior
                                                  > doors are locked, and someone stays with vendors every bit of the time they
                                                  > are there. No cell phones, no recorders, no cameras (unless that is what
                                                  > you are there to do, as in take pictures of old equipment)
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > They will take a peek at your pictures when you leave.
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > They are definitely in use - but even walking through them you really don't
                                                  > know what for. I suspect nothing more sinister in most cases than data
                                                  > storage, fiber junctions, etc. Space is beginning to be back at a premium,
                                                  > so they are removing rooms full or RIP'd equipment.

                                                  While this might indeed be asking *WAY* too much on a public list,
                                                  can you in any way comment on what the RIP'd equipment being removed
                                                  is and from what era ? Switches ? Antique analog mux gear ?, Early
                                                  digital cross connect gear ? Old network monitoring gear ?

                                                  Stuff from the 70/80s or post 2000 ?

                                                  And how much of it is *ahem* obviously spookish (eg Narus DPI boxes)
                                                  ... versus all the ordinary stuff you'd expect in a network hub...

                                                  --
                                                  Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, die@... DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass 02493
                                                  "An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten
                                                  'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole - in
                                                  celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now either."

                                                • Blake Bowers
                                                  Spookish? The small portion I am aware of there is nothing spookish. Just a lot of older gear, analog and early digital stuff. Older switches are gone, they
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Sep 6, 2013
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                                                    Spookish?  The small portion I am aware of there is nothing spookish.  Just a lot of older gear, analog and early digital stuff.  Older switches are gone, they had value at one point and where removed.  Stuff from the 60’s to the 80’s has been researched and rip’d in quanity.

                                                    Remember, AT&T built these for survivability, that was their intent. 

                                                     

                                                     

                                                     

                                                    > They are definitely in use - but even walking through them you really
                                                    don't
                                                    > know what for. I suspect nothing more sinister in most cases than data
                                                    > storage, fiber junctions, etc. Space is beginning to be back at a premium,
                                                    > so they are removing rooms full or RIP'd equipment.

                                                    While this might indeed be asking *WAY* too much on a public list,
                                                    can you in any way comment on what the RIP'd equipment being removed
                                                    is and from what era ? Switches ? Antique analog mux gear ?, Early
                                                    digital cross connect gear ? Old network monitoring gear ?

                                                    Stuff from the 70/80s or post 2000 ?

                                                    And how much of it is *ahem* obviously spookish (eg Narus DPI boxes)
                                                    ... versus all the ordinary stuff you'd expect in a network hub...

                                                    --
                                                    Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, die@... DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass 02493
                                                    "An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten
                                                    'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole - in
                                                    celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now either."

                                                  • Tim
                                                    ... The appearance of minimal electronic/physical security presence can help present the facility as being relatively unimportant & thus unworthy of much
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Sep 7, 2013
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                                                      On 9/6/2013 7:29 AM, Marc's Yahoo Account (original) wrote:
                                                       
                                                      I live near a major AT&T project office in MD outside of Washington DC that is still AT&T and am amazed at the perception of lack of OPSec. Gates usually open with no visible perimeter security. Not that I would venture past the open gate. I understand that most assets are below ground but am surprised at minimalist approach at perimeter. Kinda like what I've seem at some other below grade facilities in Dakotas although they have gates and lots of sensors

                                                        The appearance of minimal electronic/physical security presence can help present the facility as being relatively unimportant & thus unworthy of much
                                                      attention, but if the facility is truly important, they should want to detect & identify potential threats as early as possible.

                                                        Circa the late 1990s, one with enough intestinal fortitude or stupidity could ignore countless N-T signage (with increasingly harsh levels of verbiage) and drive right up
                                                      to the top of that site near Hagerstown, and only once at the top of the road were there noticeable CCTVs and the heavy physical security.   My friend who
                                                      did this nervously sat up there for a couple minutes looking around & possibly taking photos, but never got real close to the (raised) hydraulic anti-crash barrier or
                                                      inner security fence gate, which some CCTV were clearly focused on.  No black helicopters or ninja troops ever intervened, and on his way down the mountain,
                                                      out of curiosity he stopped about half-way down & picked up one of the phones handsets mounted in yellow boxes every half mile or so along the guardrails.  There was a huge
                                                      amount of static on the line -- if the site is truly operated by AT&T, they should have been ashamed (actually, the circuit was just as noisy as a lot of calls made
                                                      thru the NORTH STAR GEP system are!).  The person on the other end of the circuit just said something like "Hello," my friend pretended that he'd hit a deer & wondered
                                                      what he should do -- asking if he'd reached a ranger with the wilderness management area.  The vivisectionist on the other end of the circuit ignored Bambi
                                                      & was focused on finding out where my friend was.  My friend said he was at the base of the access road (the fact that there may not have been one of these
                                                      callbox things at the base of the mountain access road was an afterthought to him & perhaps the bunker man as well).  Dude said to be sure to NOT drive up the
                                                      access road, my friend assured him that he had no plans to go (back) up the access road, and the two parties hung up, after the possible AT&T dude said he
                                                      hoped that my friend's car wasn't damaged too badly.

                                                       Granted, this was during the Clinton area -- the Cold War had supposedly ended, and the muslim problem was still mostly overseas. Lots of sites
                                                      were ripe for the pickings of a C3,I site-seer (around the same era, the friend drove right up to the main entrance gate at Site-R & stopped -- what did the
                                                      TDY ARNG guys inside the guard house do?  They opened the gate, of course!) .  

                                                      Could there have been hidden CCTVs & sensor/alarms part-way up the access road? Absolutely, but...

                                                      In the same era, one of the other Potomac Project sites in the DC area had a heavy-duty (but not crash-proof) automatic gate & CCTV part-way up the mountain.


                                                        Sometime in the later 1990s or early 2000s, they put in that red gate across the base of the road -- something they probably should
                                                      have had all-along to keep the curious out.  If they're leaving that gate open, it's probably laziness that technically violates their
                                                      security protocols, but the such a gate can also be a security risk, as an organized threat could secure that
                                                      gate behind their own vehicles, and thus delay any law-enforcement/security assistance responding via ground transport to calls for
                                                      assistance up at the top or inside the facility.       



                                                        This fictional book:
                                                      http://www.stephenhunter.net/books/1989-the-day-before-midnight/ has the site featured prominently in the plot,
                                                      much like Seven Days in May covered Mt Weather.  Stephen Hunter lived/lives in the area & had heard the rumors
                                                      about the Hagerstown site.

                                                        For the record, here's a piece of apocrypha about the site.  This isn't something floating around on the internet, but
                                                      related to me directly by my source who heard it directly from the originator:

                                                         A long time ago...  one Winter night a law enforcement person was dispatched to respond to the site, to take a car vs. deer
                                                      property damage report from a worker at the site.  Person arrives up at the top of the site, uses an intercom, and is buzzed-in
                                                      thru a door & told to take an elevator down to where the reporting party will meet the LE person.   LE person claimed that the
                                                      elevator traveled down for a "long time."   I somehow want to throw in 10 levels down, but just can't recall for sure if that was
                                                      what I was told, or if it's some sort of false memory.    Anyway, the elevators door eventually opens, LE takes the brief
                                                      property-damage report so the guy can file an insurance claim, and while doing so, LE notices people in military
                                                      uniforms walking around.  LE completes the report & leaves -- not a huge event in this LE person's life as he/she
                                                      wasn't really interested in such things, etc.  but the LE person relates the story to the person who was curious
                                                      about such things, and passed the story on to me.     I don't know if it's true or not, but I trust my source & my
                                                      source trusts the originator who told my source.     Seems like an OPSEC violation for any military personnel to
                                                      be wearing uniforms to/from that site, and a major violation to let an LE person down inside the site instead of meeting
                                                      topside in the parking lot or just inside the first door.


                                                    • Polo Hat
                                                      Probable correction: it s been over a decade since I read the book and more I think about it, the more I believe the semi-fictionalizated bunker location may
                                                      Message 26 of 30 , Sep 7, 2013
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                                                        Probable correction:  it's been over a decade since I read the book and more I think about it, the more I believe the semi-fictionalizated bunker location may have been a different hardened site in Washington County, though I seem to recall some of the physical description sounding more like the "AT&T" site.

                                                        On Saturday, September 7, 2013, Tim wrote: 


                                                          This fictional book:
                                                        http://www.stephenhunter.net/books/1989-the-day-before-midnight/ has the site featured prominently in the plot,
                                                        much like Seven Days in May covered Mt Weather.  Stephen Hunter lived/lives in the area & had heard the rumors
                                                        about the Hagerstown site.


                                                      • Mike Doughney
                                                        Back in 1987 there was no pop-up barrier, one could drive all the way down to the other side of the facility and see the second drive-through door. There was a
                                                        Message 27 of 30 , Sep 8, 2013
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                                                          Back in 1987 there was no pop-up barrier, one could drive all the way down to the other side of the facility and see the second drive-through door. There was a small AT&T deathstar sign at the base of the access road but no other gate or barrier along its entire length. Photos: http://www.boxoprints.com/hagerstown2

                                                          On 9/7/2013 21:25, Tim wrote:
                                                           

                                                          Circa the late 1990s, one with enough intestinal fortitude or stupidity could ignore countless N-T signage (with increasingly harsh levels of verbiage) and drive right up
                                                          to the top of that site near Hagerstown, and only once at the top of the road were there noticeable CCTVs and the heavy physical security.   My friend who
                                                          did this nervously sat up there for a couple minutes looking around & possibly taking photos, but never got real close to the (raised) hydraulic anti-crash barrier or
                                                          inner security fence gate, which some CCTV were clearly focused on.

                                                        • Mike Walker
                                                          Back in 1987 there was no pop-up barrier, one could drive all the way down to the other side of the facility and see the second drive-through door So, is
                                                          Message 28 of 30 , Sep 8, 2013
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                                                            "Back in 1987 there was no pop-up barrier, one could drive all the way down to the other side of the facility and see the second drive-through door"

                                                            So, is that to say the facility around this point in time appeared not to really be in use?


                                                            On Sun, Sep 8, 2013 at 3:08 AM, Mike Doughney <mike@...> wrote:
                                                             

                                                            Back in 1987 there was no pop-up barrier, one could drive all the way down to the other side of the facility and see the second drive-through door. There was a small AT&T deathstar sign at the base of the access road but no other gate or barrier along its entire length. Photos: http://www.boxoprints.com/hagerstown2


                                                            On 9/7/2013 21:25, Tim wrote:
                                                             

                                                            Circa the late 1990s, one with enough intestinal fortitude or stupidity could ignore countless N-T signage (with increasingly harsh levels of verbiage) and drive right up
                                                            to the top of that site near Hagerstown, and only once at the top of the road were there noticeable CCTVs and the heavy physical security.   My friend who
                                                            did this nervously sat up there for a couple minutes looking around & possibly taking photos, but never got real close to the (raised) hydraulic anti-crash barrier or
                                                            inner security fence gate, which some CCTV were clearly focused on.


                                                          • Mike Doughney
                                                            Not clear what was going on at that time... road was clearly plowed of snow, but my visit was on a Saturday outside usual business hours. I do remember an
                                                            Message 29 of 30 , Sep 8, 2013
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                                                              Not clear what was going on at that time... road was clearly plowed of snow, but my visit was on a Saturday outside usual business hours. I do remember an entry turnstile with a sign reading "Face camera for identity check."

                                                              Use Google Earth historical imagery to view how the facility changed over the years - what looks like construction activity around 9/2005, with the site looking completely dormant in the 90's.


                                                              On 9/8/2013 03:15, Mike Walker wrote:
                                                               
                                                              "Back in 1987 there was no pop-up barrier, one could drive all the way down to the other side of the facility and see the second drive-through door"

                                                              So, is that to say the facility around this point in time appeared not to really be in use?


                                                              On Sun, Sep 8, 2013 at 3:08 AM, Mike Doughney <mike@...> wrote:
                                                               

                                                              Back in 1987 there was no pop-up barrier, one could drive all the way down to the other side of the facility and see the second drive-through door. There was a small AT&T deathstar sign at the base of the access road but no other gate or barrier along its entire length. Photos: http://www.boxoprints.com/hagerstown2


                                                              On 9/7/2013 21:25, Tim wrote:
                                                               

                                                              Circa the late 1990s, one with enough intestinal fortitude or stupidity could ignore countless N-T signage (with increasingly harsh levels of verbiage) and drive right up
                                                              to the top of that site near Hagerstown, and only once at the top of the road were there noticeable CCTVs and the heavy physical security.   My friend who
                                                              did this nervously sat up there for a couple minutes looking around & possibly taking photos, but never got real close to the (raised) hydraulic anti-crash barrier or
                                                              inner security fence gate, which some CCTV were clearly focused on.



                                                            • ozob99
                                                              IIRC there was still some circuit activity in the late 1980 s, but the original customers might not have been reporting there daily. --- In
                                                              Message 30 of 30 , Sep 8, 2013
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                                                                 IIRC there was still some circuit activity in the late 1980's, but the original "customers" might not have been reporting there daily.



                                                                --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, <coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                                                Not clear what was going on at that time... road was clearly plowed of snow, but my visit was on a Saturday outside usual business hours. I do remember an entry turnstile with a sign reading "Face camera for identity check."

                                                                Use Google Earth historical imagery to view how the facility changed over the years - what looks like construction activity around 9/2005, with the site looking completely dormant in the 90's.


                                                                On 9/8/2013 03:15, Mike Walker wrote:
                                                                 
                                                                "Back in 1987 there was no pop-up barrier, one could drive all the way down to the other side of the facility and see the second drive-through door"

                                                                So, is that to say the facility around this point in time appeared not to really be in use?


                                                                On Sun, Sep 8, 2013 at 3:08 AM, Mike Doughney <mike@...> wrote:
                                                                 

                                                                Back in 1987 there was no pop-up barrier, one could drive all the way down to the other side of the facility and see the second drive-through door. There was a small AT&T deathstar sign at the base of the access road but no other gate or barrier along its entire length. Photos: http://www.boxoprints.com/hagerstown2


                                                                On 9/7/2013 21:25, Tim wrote:
                                                                 

                                                                Circa the late 1990s, one with enough intestinal fortitude or stupidity could ignore countless N-T signage (with increasingly harsh levels of verbiage) and drive right up
                                                                to the top of that site near Hagerstown, and only once at the top of the road were there noticeable CCTVs and the heavy physical security.   My friend who
                                                                did this nervously sat up there for a couple minutes looking around & possibly taking photos, but never got real close to the (raised) hydraulic anti-crash barrier or
                                                                inner security fence gate, which some CCTV were clearly focused on.



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