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Western Electric WECO 14C Program Amplifier

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  • Rick Nasti
    Does anyone have any information on the WE 14C Program Amplifier? I m looking for any type of information and a schematic would be great. I ve had a pair for
    Message 1 of 12 , Feb 5, 2012
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      Does anyone have any information on the WE 14C Program Amplifier?
      I'm looking for any type of information and a schematic would be great.

      I've had a pair for 10+ years and have been looking for information or a schematic for just as long.

      I'm told that there is some information in the 800 level Bell System Practices, but I've been unable to find any BSP's in this level.

      Thanks in advance for any help.

      Rick
    • OZOB99
      ... The 14C amp was a high fidelity (20h-15KZ) amp used from late 1940 s for practically all network radio & TV audio in telco program/tv operating centers;
      Message 2 of 12 , Feb 5, 2012
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        --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Nasti" <ricknasti@...> wrote:
        >
        > Does anyone have any information on the WE 14C Program Amplifier?
        > I'm looking for any type of information and a schematic would be great.
        >
        > I've had a pair for 10+ years and have been looking for information or a schematic for just as long.
        >
        > I'm told that there is some information in the 800 level Bell System Practices, but I've been unable to find any BSP's in this level.
        >
        > Thanks in advance for any help.
        >
        > Rick


        The 14C amp was a "high fidelity"(20h-15KZ) amp used from late 1940's for practically all network radio & TV audio in telco program/tv operating centers; usually configured with type G reversible bridges
        with a nominal output of +8VU.They were feed from either an intercity cable pair or a C1 SSB terminal on a J,K,L,R channel group.

        It's covered in the 320 layer of BSP's; Sam Etler has some related 320 BSPs at etler.com/bsp but apparantly not the one on the 14C itself.

        Bell System SD's(schematic drawings) are very scarce online, especially on non-typical equipment like program amps;also SD's on CO equipment were typically 3-4 X 4-6 feet in size, making reproduction difficult at home.

        The BSP will provide the SD #, or it may be stenciled on the unit; good luck on finding it.

        You may have two of only a handful extant today, so it's a rare piece.

        BTW, like most vintage telco tube type equipment, this amp worked for many years,typically 8-12 without a component or tube failure.

        There was a Cold War connection in that any emergency network broadcast would have gone through this amp.
      • David
        ... I ve mentioned my old friend who worked at 750 Huron. Later, he ran & still runs a service business, that then included the PA system at Hopkins. I worked
        Message 3 of 12 , Feb 5, 2012
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          On 2/5/12 1:18 PM, OZOB99 wrote:

          > The 14C amp was a "high fidelity"(20h-15KZ) amp used from late 1940's
          > for practically all network radio& TV audio in telco program/tv
          > operating centers; usually configured with type G reversible bridges
          > with a nominal output of +8VU.

          I've mentioned my old friend who worked at 750 Huron. Later, he ran &
          still runs a service business, that then included the PA system at Hopkins.
          I worked on it with him. I vaguely recall it used WECO amps....I did not
          ask how he'd acquired them.

          It had one amp per concourse, and was accessed by dialing oh 345 from any
          "inside" phone. When one failed, that concourse would be silent & he'd get
          a call. But the bigger issue was when the amp for the ticketing area went
          out as a TA would dial 345, start to talk, realize there was no sound, and
          hang up; thinking the system was out airport wide.

          Even worse, 345 "American....Shit the PA is out again....click" was a
          regular feature.
        • Sam Etler
          ... An excerpt from an e-mail I sent to Rick before he asked on the list. BSPs will be difficult to find but here s what I was able to dig up: To your specific
          Message 4 of 12 , Feb 5, 2012
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            On Sun, Feb 5, 2012 at 10:18 AM, OZOB99 <ozob99@...> wrote:

            > It's covered in the 320 layer of BSP's; Sam Etler has some related 320
            > BSPs at etler.com/bsp but apparantly not the one on the 14C itself.
            >
            > Bell System SD's(schematic drawings) are very scarce online, especially on
            > non-typical equipment like program amps;also SD's on CO equipment were
            > typically 3-4 X 4-6 feet in size, making reproduction difficult at home.
            >
            > The BSP will provide the SD #, or it may be stenciled on the unit; good
            > luck on finding it.
            >

            An excerpt from an e-mail I sent to Rick before he asked on the list. BSPs
            will be difficult to find but here's what I was able to dig up:

            To your specific question, the J68617W is the code for the 14C program
            amplifier. Evidence of this can be found in 032-510-110, Issue 1 where the
            315A plug is described as "used with the P4S cord in program transmission
            systems using the 14C program amplifier (J68617W)."

            It looks like the main BSP that covers the J68617 specification is
            804-101-151, Program Transmission Panels and Units. Unfortunately I don't
            have a copy of this. 800 series BSPs in general are pretty difficult to
            come by. There is also 804-105-181, 14C Program Amplifiers and Associated
            Equipment, Performance Requirements which I don't have.

            I did come across a BSP section, 320-235-100, Program Switching Equipment
            for Use With 12 or 14 Type Program Amplifiers. You can find it here:
            http://etler.com/docs/BSP/320/320-235-100_I1.pdf

            There's also mention of the 14C being used in various settings in
            320-235-105, 1-2 and 1-4 Remote Control Program Switching Arrangements.
            http://etler.com/docs/BSP/320/320-235-105_I1.pdf

            It's possible that there is a descriptive BSP for the 14C Program Amplifier
            specifically but I'm not positive. The reason I think this is because it's
            mentioned in the Equipment Test List for the 320 division in layer 320-230.
            It looks like these sections were all cancelled by the time any indexes I
            have were issued so I can't say for sure. The test methods BSP is
            320-230-500. If any of these exist I don't have them though.

            sam


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • David
            ... There were WECO amps but he thinks they drove the airport s amps that we maintained. He has no BSP s on the WECO s, alas.
            Message 5 of 12 , Feb 5, 2012
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              > I vaguely recall it used WECO amps....I did not ask how he'd acquired
              > them.


              There were WECO amps but he thinks they drove the airport's amps that we
              maintained. He has no BSP's on the WECO's, alas.
            • Rick Nasti
              I owe a big THANK YOU! to Sam for the trouble and time he took to dig out the info he had and email me. I meant to edit my post before I sent it to the group
              Message 6 of 12 , Feb 5, 2012
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                I owe a big THANK YOU! to Sam for the trouble and time he took to dig out the info he had and email me.
                I meant to edit my post before I sent it to the group to mention Sam as the source for the ONLY information I'd ever found. It was He whom confirmed that my amps are 14C's; the only marking on them is J68617W-2.
                There is no schematic # marked on the amps.

                I also want to thank everyone else whom replied. As I mentioned, I've had these quite a while (I've now realized that it's more like 15 years, not the 10 I mentioned). Every couple of years I pull one out and start looking for data on them. I've started to trace the circuit out myself more then once, but my health problems got in the way of any serious progress.

                In the 20+ hours I've spent looking for information on the WWW over the past few days there is a bright spot in addition to Sam's work. Someone uploaded some older WE transformer catalogs to the TCI site. They contain the data on all three of the transformers on the 14C's; the input (608A) the 2nd input (interstage) (609A) and the output (187A). I do want to thank whomever uploaded them.

                The only WE transmission transformer catalogs I had previously were the 1968 and 1964 that I brought home from Holmdel about 40 years ago. If they're not on the TCI site I will get my son to scan them and upload them.

                Armed with the xformer data I'm going to take another shot at tracing out the schematic.
                I now know that the output xformer has a 600 ohm secondary and several taps, one of which is 30 ohms. One of the BSP's from Sam showed the 14C in use as a monitor amp, using an autotransformer between the 30 ohm secondary and the 8 ohm 651A speaker. I suspect the 30 ohm tap is the lowest one or they wouldn't have used the autotransformer.

                Does any one have autotransformers or speakers they would like to sell or trade?

                I haven't looked up the tube specs yet (PP 310A's xformer coupled to 311A's PP outputs), but I'm thinking that I'll need both 160V and 320V in addition to lighting the heaters. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

                I intend to make this the year that I get these amps going and regain at least 75% of my health!

                Thanks all,

                Rick






                --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, Sam Etler <etler@...> wrote:
                >
                > On Sun, Feb 5, 2012 at 10:18 AM, OZOB99 <ozob99@...> wrote:
                >
                > > It's covered in the 320 layer of BSP's; Sam Etler has some related 320
                > > BSPs at etler.com/bsp but apparantly not the one on the 14C itself.
                > >
                > > Bell System SD's(schematic drawings) are very scarce online, especially on
                > > non-typical equipment like program amps;also SD's on CO equipment were
                > > typically 3-4 X 4-6 feet in size, making reproduction difficult at home.
                > >
                > > The BSP will provide the SD #, or it may be stenciled on the unit; good
                > > luck on finding it.
                > >
                >
                > An excerpt from an e-mail I sent to Rick before he asked on the list. BSPs
                > will be difficult to find but here's what I was able to dig up:
                >
                > To your specific question, the J68617W is the code for the 14C program
                > amplifier. Evidence of this can be found in 032-510-110, Issue 1 where the
                > 315A plug is described as "used with the P4S cord in program transmission
                > systems using the 14C program amplifier (J68617W)."
                >
                > It looks like the main BSP that covers the J68617 specification is
                > 804-101-151, Program Transmission Panels and Units. Unfortunately I don't
                > have a copy of this. 800 series BSPs in general are pretty difficult to
                > come by. There is also 804-105-181, 14C Program Amplifiers and Associated
                > Equipment, Performance Requirements which I don't have.
                >
                > I did come across a BSP section, 320-235-100, Program Switching Equipment
                > for Use With 12 or 14 Type Program Amplifiers. You can find it here:
                > http://etler.com/docs/BSP/320/320-235-100_I1.pdf
                >
                > There's also mention of the 14C being used in various settings in
                > 320-235-105, 1-2 and 1-4 Remote Control Program Switching Arrangements.
                > http://etler.com/docs/BSP/320/320-235-105_I1.pdf
                >
                > It's possible that there is a descriptive BSP for the 14C Program Amplifier
                > specifically but I'm not positive. The reason I think this is because it's
                > mentioned in the Equipment Test List for the 320 division in layer 320-230.
                > It looks like these sections were all cancelled by the time any indexes I
                > have were issued so I can't say for sure. The test methods BSP is
                > 320-230-500. If any of these exist I don't have them though.
                >
                > sam
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • OZOB99
                While the 310 & 311 tubes were common in CO equipment of the day, better hope they work because they are very pricey today due to audio purist s demand, &
                Message 7 of 12 , Feb 5, 2012
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                  While the 310 & 311 tubes were common in CO equipment of the day, better hope they work because they are very pricey today due to audio purist's demand, & possible pig in a poke if you have to buy one.

                  IIRC the B+ feed was from +130V plate battery, with 10V heaters derived from 24V fil battery.

                  Specs here:

                  www.westernelectric.com/spec_sheets/310A.pdf

                  www.westernelectric.com/spec_sheets/311A.pdf

                  More might be gleaned from audiophile forums & websites.



                  --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Nasti" <ricknasti@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > I owe a big THANK YOU! to Sam for the trouble and time he took to dig out the info he had and email me.
                  > I meant to edit my post before I sent it to the group to mention Sam as the source for the ONLY information I'd ever found. It was He whom confirmed that my amps are 14C's; the only marking on them is J68617W-2.
                  > There is no schematic # marked on the amps.
                  >
                  > I also want to thank everyone else whom replied. As I mentioned, I've had these quite a while (I've now realized that it's more like 15 years, not the 10 I mentioned). Every couple of years I pull one out and start looking for data on them. I've started to trace the circuit out myself more then once, but my health problems got in the way of any serious progress.
                  >
                  > In the 20+ hours I've spent looking for information on the WWW over the past few days there is a bright spot in addition to Sam's work. Someone uploaded some older WE transformer catalogs to the TCI site. They contain the data on all three of the transformers on the 14C's; the input (608A) the 2nd input (interstage) (609A) and the output (187A). I do want to thank whomever uploaded them.
                  >
                  > The only WE transmission transformer catalogs I had previously were the 1968 and 1964 that I brought home from Holmdel about 40 years ago. If they're not on the TCI site I will get my son to scan them and upload them.
                  >
                  > Armed with the xformer data I'm going to take another shot at tracing out the schematic.
                  > I now know that the output xformer has a 600 ohm secondary and several taps, one of which is 30 ohms. One of the BSP's from Sam showed the 14C in use as a monitor amp, using an autotransformer between the 30 ohm secondary and the 8 ohm 651A speaker. I suspect the 30 ohm tap is the lowest one or they wouldn't have used the autotransformer.
                  >
                  > Does any one have autotransformers or speakers they would like to sell or trade?
                  >
                  > I haven't looked up the tube specs yet (PP 310A's xformer coupled to 311A's PP outputs), but I'm thinking that I'll need both 160V and 320V in addition to lighting the heaters. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
                  >
                  > I intend to make this the year that I get these amps going and regain at least 75% of my health!
                  >
                  > Thanks all,
                  >
                  > Rick
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, Sam Etler <etler@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > On Sun, Feb 5, 2012 at 10:18 AM, OZOB99 <ozob99@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > > It's covered in the 320 layer of BSP's; Sam Etler has some related 320
                  > > > BSPs at etler.com/bsp but apparantly not the one on the 14C itself.
                  > > >
                  > > > Bell System SD's(schematic drawings) are very scarce online, especially on
                  > > > non-typical equipment like program amps;also SD's on CO equipment were
                  > > > typically 3-4 X 4-6 feet in size, making reproduction difficult at home.
                  > > >
                  > > > The BSP will provide the SD #, or it may be stenciled on the unit; good
                  > > > luck on finding it.
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > > An excerpt from an e-mail I sent to Rick before he asked on the list. BSPs
                  > > will be difficult to find but here's what I was able to dig up:
                  > >
                  > > To your specific question, the J68617W is the code for the 14C program
                  > > amplifier. Evidence of this can be found in 032-510-110, Issue 1 where the
                  > > 315A plug is described as "used with the P4S cord in program transmission
                  > > systems using the 14C program amplifier (J68617W)."
                  > >
                  > > It looks like the main BSP that covers the J68617 specification is
                  > > 804-101-151, Program Transmission Panels and Units. Unfortunately I don't
                  > > have a copy of this. 800 series BSPs in general are pretty difficult to
                  > > come by. There is also 804-105-181, 14C Program Amplifiers and Associated
                  > > Equipment, Performance Requirements which I don't have.
                  > >
                  > > I did come across a BSP section, 320-235-100, Program Switching Equipment
                  > > for Use With 12 or 14 Type Program Amplifiers. You can find it here:
                  > > http://etler.com/docs/BSP/320/320-235-100_I1.pdf
                  > >
                  > > There's also mention of the 14C being used in various settings in
                  > > 320-235-105, 1-2 and 1-4 Remote Control Program Switching Arrangements.
                  > > http://etler.com/docs/BSP/320/320-235-105_I1.pdf
                  > >
                  > > It's possible that there is a descriptive BSP for the 14C Program Amplifier
                  > > specifically but I'm not positive. The reason I think this is because it's
                  > > mentioned in the Equipment Test List for the 320 division in layer 320-230.
                  > > It looks like these sections were all cancelled by the time any indexes I
                  > > have were issued so I can't say for sure. The test methods BSP is
                  > > 320-230-500. If any of these exist I don't have them though.
                  > >
                  > > sam
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  >
                • Rick Nasti
                  Thanks for the help and links. I have been collecting a long time, so I have a couple of dozen 310A s and a few (I hope) 311A s. Thanks again, Rick
                  Message 8 of 12 , Feb 5, 2012
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                    Thanks for the help and links.
                    I have been collecting a long time, so I have a couple of dozen 310A's and a few (I hope) 311A's.

                    Thanks again,
                    Rick

                    --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, "OZOB99" <ozob99@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > While the 310 & 311 tubes were common in CO equipment of the day, better hope they work because they are very pricey today due to audio purist's demand, & possible pig in a poke if you have to buy one.
                    >
                    > IIRC the B+ feed was from +130V plate battery, with 10V heaters derived from 24V fil battery.
                    >
                    > Specs here:
                    >
                    > www.westernelectric.com/spec_sheets/310A.pdf
                    >
                    > www.westernelectric.com/spec_sheets/311A.pdf
                    >
                    > More might be gleaned from audiophile forums & websites.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Nasti" <ricknasti@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > I owe a big THANK YOU! to Sam for the trouble and time he took to dig out the info he had and email me.
                    > > I meant to edit my post before I sent it to the group to mention Sam as the source for the ONLY information I'd ever found. It was He whom confirmed that my amps are 14C's; the only marking on them is J68617W-2.
                    > > There is no schematic # marked on the amps.
                    > >
                    > > I also want to thank everyone else whom replied. As I mentioned, I've had these quite a while (I've now realized that it's more like 15 years, not the 10 I mentioned). Every couple of years I pull one out and start looking for data on them. I've started to trace the circuit out myself more then once, but my health problems got in the way of any serious progress.
                    > >
                    > > In the 20+ hours I've spent looking for information on the WWW over the past few days there is a bright spot in addition to Sam's work. Someone uploaded some older WE transformer catalogs to the TCI site. They contain the data on all three of the transformers on the 14C's; the input (608A) the 2nd input (interstage) (609A) and the output (187A). I do want to thank whomever uploaded them.
                    > >
                    > > The only WE transmission transformer catalogs I had previously were the 1968 and 1964 that I brought home from Holmdel about 40 years ago. If they're not on the TCI site I will get my son to scan them and upload them.
                    > >
                    > > Armed with the xformer data I'm going to take another shot at tracing out the schematic.
                    > > I now know that the output xformer has a 600 ohm secondary and several taps, one of which is 30 ohms. One of the BSP's from Sam showed the 14C in use as a monitor amp, using an autotransformer between the 30 ohm secondary and the 8 ohm 651A speaker. I suspect the 30 ohm tap is the lowest one or they wouldn't have used the autotransformer.
                    > >
                    > > Does any one have autotransformers or speakers they would like to sell or trade?
                    > >
                    > > I haven't looked up the tube specs yet (PP 310A's xformer coupled to 311A's PP outputs), but I'm thinking that I'll need both 160V and 320V in addition to lighting the heaters. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
                    > >
                    > > I intend to make this the year that I get these amps going and regain at least 75% of my health!
                    > >
                    > > Thanks all,
                    > >
                    > > Rick
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, Sam Etler <etler@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > On Sun, Feb 5, 2012 at 10:18 AM, OZOB99 <ozob99@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > > It's covered in the 320 layer of BSP's; Sam Etler has some related 320
                    > > > > BSPs at etler.com/bsp but apparantly not the one on the 14C itself.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Bell System SD's(schematic drawings) are very scarce online, especially on
                    > > > > non-typical equipment like program amps;also SD's on CO equipment were
                    > > > > typically 3-4 X 4-6 feet in size, making reproduction difficult at home.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > The BSP will provide the SD #, or it may be stenciled on the unit; good
                    > > > > luck on finding it.
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > An excerpt from an e-mail I sent to Rick before he asked on the list. BSPs
                    > > > will be difficult to find but here's what I was able to dig up:
                    > > >
                    > > > To your specific question, the J68617W is the code for the 14C program
                    > > > amplifier. Evidence of this can be found in 032-510-110, Issue 1 where the
                    > > > 315A plug is described as "used with the P4S cord in program transmission
                    > > > systems using the 14C program amplifier (J68617W)."
                    > > >
                    > > > It looks like the main BSP that covers the J68617 specification is
                    > > > 804-101-151, Program Transmission Panels and Units. Unfortunately I don't
                    > > > have a copy of this. 800 series BSPs in general are pretty difficult to
                    > > > come by. There is also 804-105-181, 14C Program Amplifiers and Associated
                    > > > Equipment, Performance Requirements which I don't have.
                    > > >
                    > > > I did come across a BSP section, 320-235-100, Program Switching Equipment
                    > > > for Use With 12 or 14 Type Program Amplifiers. You can find it here:
                    > > > http://etler.com/docs/BSP/320/320-235-100_I1.pdf
                    > > >
                    > > > There's also mention of the 14C being used in various settings in
                    > > > 320-235-105, 1-2 and 1-4 Remote Control Program Switching Arrangements.
                    > > > http://etler.com/docs/BSP/320/320-235-105_I1.pdf
                    > > >
                    > > > It's possible that there is a descriptive BSP for the 14C Program Amplifier
                    > > > specifically but I'm not positive. The reason I think this is because it's
                    > > > mentioned in the Equipment Test List for the 320 division in layer 320-230.
                    > > > It looks like these sections were all cancelled by the time any indexes I
                    > > > have were issued so I can't say for sure. The test methods BSP is
                    > > > 320-230-500. If any of these exist I don't have them though.
                    > > >
                    > > > sam
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • charlie Fargis
                    All the Program Operating center amplifiers we had at 900 Race were 14C;s all in a lineup. Each bay had a 14C, VU meter Panel, bridge leg jack strips 16 legs
                    Message 9 of 12 , Feb 6, 2012
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                      All the Program Operating center amplifiers we had at 900 Race were 14C;s all in a lineup.
                      Each bay had a 14C, VU meter Panel, bridge leg jack strips 16 legs as I recall
                      and a huge pile of switching control relays
                      The jacks and patch cords were special 4 wire ones. They were 4 prongs with audio on 2 tips
                      and control on the other 2 tips. The patch cords were the only red ones on the floor.
                      WCAU Radio CBS owned at the time, had a transmit loop to the one that was the CBS Radio Network 14C.
                      They had a separate telegraph circuit for taking control of the bridge.
                      We ate POE once when a BOPA tech accidentally bumped into the relay @ WCAU that opened the
                      network towards NYC when Washington was sending. Oops..
                      The control worked in such a way that if one sent current in one direction, control was flipped.
                      You had to reverse the current to switch it the other way. Never got the reversal.
                      So we had to open the loop and let Washington take control to restore service.
                      When that happened, I spent a week writing up a circuit description, patching and troubleshooting
                      procedures. Not in these BSPs.

                      To: coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com
                      From: ricknasti@...
                      Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 21:41:43 +0000
                      Subject: [coldwarcomms] Re: Western Electric WECO 14C Program Amplifier
































                      I owe a big THANK YOU! to Sam for the trouble and time he took to dig out the info he had and email me.

                      I meant to edit my post before I sent it to the group to mention Sam as the source for the ONLY information I'd ever found. It was He whom confirmed that my amps are 14C's; the only marking on them is J68617W-2.

                      There is no schematic # marked on the amps.



                      I also want to thank everyone else whom replied. As I mentioned, I've had these quite a while (I've now realized that it's more like 15 years, not the 10 I mentioned). Every couple of years I pull one out and start looking for data on them. I've started to trace the circuit out myself more then once, but my health problems got in the way of any serious progress.



                      In the 20+ hours I've spent looking for information on the WWW over the past few days there is a bright spot in addition to Sam's work. Someone uploaded some older WE transformer catalogs to the TCI site. They contain the data on all three of the transformers on the 14C's; the input (608A) the 2nd input (interstage) (609A) and the output (187A). I do want to thank whomever uploaded them.



                      The only WE transmission transformer catalogs I had previously were the 1968 and 1964 that I brought home from Holmdel about 40 years ago. If they're not on the TCI site I will get my son to scan them and upload them.



                      Armed with the xformer data I'm going to take another shot at tracing out the schematic.

                      I now know that the output xformer has a 600 ohm secondary and several taps, one of which is 30 ohms. One of the BSP's from Sam showed the 14C in use as a monitor amp, using an autotransformer between the 30 ohm secondary and the 8 ohm 651A speaker. I suspect the 30 ohm tap is the lowest one or they wouldn't have used the autotransformer.



                      Does any one have autotransformers or speakers they would like to sell or trade?



                      I haven't looked up the tube specs yet (PP 310A's xformer coupled to 311A's PP outputs), but I'm thinking that I'll need both 160V and 320V in addition to lighting the heaters. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?



                      I intend to make this the year that I get these amps going and regain at least 75% of my health!



                      Thanks all,



                      Rick



                      --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, Sam Etler <etler@...> wrote:

                      >

                      > On Sun, Feb 5, 2012 at 10:18 AM, OZOB99 <ozob99@...> wrote:

                      >

                      > > It's covered in the 320 layer of BSP's; Sam Etler has some related 320

                      > > BSPs at etler.com/bsp but apparantly not the one on the 14C itself.

                      > >

                      > > Bell System SD's(schematic drawings) are very scarce online, especially on

                      > > non-typical equipment like program amps;also SD's on CO equipment were

                      > > typically 3-4 X 4-6 feet in size, making reproduction difficult at home.

                      > >

                      > > The BSP will provide the SD #, or it may be stenciled on the unit; good

                      > > luck on finding it.

                      > >

                      >

                      > An excerpt from an e-mail I sent to Rick before he asked on the list. BSPs

                      > will be difficult to find but here's what I was able to dig up:

                      >

                      > To your specific question, the J68617W is the code for the 14C program

                      > amplifier. Evidence of this can be found in 032-510-110, Issue 1 where the

                      > 315A plug is described as "used with the P4S cord in program transmission

                      > systems using the 14C program amplifier (J68617W)."

                      >

                      > It looks like the main BSP that covers the J68617 specification is

                      > 804-101-151, Program Transmission Panels and Units. Unfortunately I don't

                      > have a copy of this. 800 series BSPs in general are pretty difficult to

                      > come by. There is also 804-105-181, 14C Program Amplifiers and Associated

                      > Equipment, Performance Requirements which I don't have.

                      >

                      > I did come across a BSP section, 320-235-100, Program Switching Equipment

                      > for Use With 12 or 14 Type Program Amplifiers. You can find it here:

                      > http://etler.com/docs/BSP/320/320-235-100_I1.pdf

                      >

                      > There's also mention of the 14C being used in various settings in

                      > 320-235-105, 1-2 and 1-4 Remote Control Program Switching Arrangements.

                      > http://etler.com/docs/BSP/320/320-235-105_I1.pdf

                      >

                      > It's possible that there is a descriptive BSP for the 14C Program Amplifier

                      > specifically but I'm not positive. The reason I think this is because it's

                      > mentioned in the Equipment Test List for the 320 division in layer 320-230.

                      > It looks like these sections were all cancelled by the time any indexes I

                      > have were issued so I can't say for sure. The test methods BSP is

                      > 320-230-500. If any of these exist I don't have them though.

                      >

                      > sam

                      >

                      >

                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      >


















                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Rick Nasti
                      Charlie Thanks for the information. You would t have a copy of the circuit description you prepared by any chance?
                      Message 10 of 12 , Feb 8, 2012
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Charlie
                        Thanks for the information.
                        You would't have a copy of the circuit description you prepared by any chance?

                        --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, charlie Fargis <lackey91@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > All the Program Operating center amplifiers we had at 900 Race were 14C;s all in a lineup.
                        > Each bay had a 14C, VU meter Panel, bridge leg jack strips 16 legs as I recall
                        > and a huge pile of switching control relays
                        > The jacks and patch cords were special 4 wire ones. They were 4 prongs with audio on 2 tips
                        > and control on the other 2 tips. The patch cords were the only red ones on the floor.
                        > WCAU Radio CBS owned at the time, had a transmit loop to the one that was the CBS Radio Network 14C.
                        > They had a separate telegraph circuit for taking control of the bridge.
                        > We ate POE once when a BOPA tech accidentally bumped into the relay @ WCAU that opened the
                        > network towards NYC when Washington was sending. Oops..
                        > The control worked in such a way that if one sent current in one direction, control was flipped.
                        > You had to reverse the current to switch it the other way. Never got the reversal.
                        > So we had to open the loop and let Washington take control to restore service.
                        > When that happened, I spent a week writing up a circuit description, patching and troubleshooting
                        > procedures. Not in these BSPs.
                        >
                        > To: coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com
                        > From: ricknasti@...
                        > Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 21:41:43 +0000
                        > Subject: [coldwarcomms] Re: Western Electric WECO 14C Program Amplifier
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > I owe a big THANK YOU! to Sam for the trouble and time he took to dig out the info he had and email me.
                        >
                        > I meant to edit my post before I sent it to the group to mention Sam as the source for the ONLY information I'd ever found. It was He whom confirmed that my amps are 14C's; the only marking on them is J68617W-2.
                        >
                        > There is no schematic # marked on the amps.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > I also want to thank everyone else whom replied. As I mentioned, I've had these quite a while (I've now realized that it's more like 15 years, not the 10 I mentioned). Every couple of years I pull one out and start looking for data on them. I've started to trace the circuit out myself more then once, but my health problems got in the way of any serious progress.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > In the 20+ hours I've spent looking for information on the WWW over the past few days there is a bright spot in addition to Sam's work. Someone uploaded some older WE transformer catalogs to the TCI site. They contain the data on all three of the transformers on the 14C's; the input (608A) the 2nd input (interstage) (609A) and the output (187A). I do want to thank whomever uploaded them.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > The only WE transmission transformer catalogs I had previously were the 1968 and 1964 that I brought home from Holmdel about 40 years ago. If they're not on the TCI site I will get my son to scan them and upload them.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Armed with the xformer data I'm going to take another shot at tracing out the schematic.
                        >
                        > I now know that the output xformer has a 600 ohm secondary and several taps, one of which is 30 ohms. One of the BSP's from Sam showed the 14C in use as a monitor amp, using an autotransformer between the 30 ohm secondary and the 8 ohm 651A speaker. I suspect the 30 ohm tap is the lowest one or they wouldn't have used the autotransformer.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Does any one have autotransformers or speakers they would like to sell or trade?
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > I haven't looked up the tube specs yet (PP 310A's xformer coupled to 311A's PP outputs), but I'm thinking that I'll need both 160V and 320V in addition to lighting the heaters. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > I intend to make this the year that I get these amps going and regain at least 75% of my health!
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Thanks all,
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Rick
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, Sam Etler <etler@> wrote:
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > On Sun, Feb 5, 2012 at 10:18 AM, OZOB99 <ozob99@> wrote:
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > It's covered in the 320 layer of BSP's; Sam Etler has some related 320
                        >
                        > > > BSPs at etler.com/bsp but apparantly not the one on the 14C itself.
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > Bell System SD's(schematic drawings) are very scarce online, especially on
                        >
                        > > > non-typical equipment like program amps;also SD's on CO equipment were
                        >
                        > > > typically 3-4 X 4-6 feet in size, making reproduction difficult at home.
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > The BSP will provide the SD #, or it may be stenciled on the unit; good
                        >
                        > > > luck on finding it.
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > An excerpt from an e-mail I sent to Rick before he asked on the list. BSPs
                        >
                        > > will be difficult to find but here's what I was able to dig up:
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > To your specific question, the J68617W is the code for the 14C program
                        >
                        > > amplifier. Evidence of this can be found in 032-510-110, Issue 1 where the
                        >
                        > > 315A plug is described as "used with the P4S cord in program transmission
                        >
                        > > systems using the 14C program amplifier (J68617W)."
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > It looks like the main BSP that covers the J68617 specification is
                        >
                        > > 804-101-151, Program Transmission Panels and Units. Unfortunately I don't
                        >
                        > > have a copy of this. 800 series BSPs in general are pretty difficult to
                        >
                        > > come by. There is also 804-105-181, 14C Program Amplifiers and Associated
                        >
                        > > Equipment, Performance Requirements which I don't have.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > I did come across a BSP section, 320-235-100, Program Switching Equipment
                        >
                        > > for Use With 12 or 14 Type Program Amplifiers. You can find it here:
                        >
                        > > http://etler.com/docs/BSP/320/320-235-100_I1.pdf
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > There's also mention of the 14C being used in various settings in
                        >
                        > > 320-235-105, 1-2 and 1-4 Remote Control Program Switching Arrangements.
                        >
                        > > http://etler.com/docs/BSP/320/320-235-105_I1.pdf
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > It's possible that there is a descriptive BSP for the 14C Program Amplifier
                        >
                        > > specifically but I'm not positive. The reason I think this is because it's
                        >
                        > > mentioned in the Equipment Test List for the 320 division in layer 320-230.
                        >
                        > > It looks like these sections were all cancelled by the time any indexes I
                        >
                        > > have were issued so I can't say for sure. The test methods BSP is
                        >
                        > > 320-230-500. If any of these exist I don't have them though.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > sam
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                      • charlie Fargis
                        WHen I wrote it, we didnt have a copier and it wasnt a CD. If you have any SD, usually there is a corresponding CD for it. Thats the way docs were done at
                        Message 11 of 12 , Feb 9, 2012
                        • 0 Attachment
                          WHen I wrote it, we didnt have a copier and it wasnt a CD.
                          If you have any SD, usually there is a corresponding CD for it.
                          Thats the way docs were done at WECo.
                          The schematic is in an SD as in Standard Drawing and CD was a Circuit Description.
                          ED is equipment description which mostly a physical layout spec.
                          J drawings are a conglomeration of equipment..might even be just one thing.
                          X specs are what WECo uses to test a part or assembly
                          KS stands for Karney(Works, NJ) Specification. WHen WECo bought it from some other manufacturer.

                          I did not write a BSP, but something I scribbled together, tested and typed up on a manual Underwood like Andy Rooney's. Then it was screwed under the plexiglass
                          of the writing shelf. Every testroom had those writing shelves with something helpful underneath.

                          To: coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com
                          From: ricknasti@...
                          Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2012 06:13:10 +0000
                          SendSubject: [coldwarcomms] Re: Western Electric WECO 14C Program Amplifier




























                          Charlie

                          Thanks for the information.

                          You would't have a copy of the circuit description you prepared by any chance?



                          --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, charlie Fargis <lackey91@...> wrote:

                          >

                          >

                          > All the Program Operating center amplifiers we had at 900 Race were 14C;s all in a lineup.

                          > Each bay had a 14C, VU meter Panel, bridge leg jack strips 16 legs as I recall

                          > and a huge pile of switching control relays

                          > The jacks and patch cords were special 4 wire ones. They were 4 prongs with audio on 2 tips

                          > and control on the other 2 tips. The patch cords were the only red ones on the floor.

                          > WCAU Radio CBS owned at the time, had a transmit loop to the one that was the CBS Radio Network 14C.

                          > They had a separate telegraph circuit for taking control of the bridge.

                          > We ate POE once when a BOPA tech accidentally bumped into the relay @ WCAU that opened the

                          > network towards NYC when Washington was sending. Oops..

                          > The control worked in such a way that if one sent current in one direction, control was flipped.

                          > You had to reverse the current to switch it the other way. Never got the reversal.

                          > So we had to open the loop and let Washington take control to restore service.

                          > When that happened, I spent a week writing up a circuit description, patching and troubleshooting

                          > procedures. Not in these BSPs.

                          >

                          > To: coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com

                          > From: ricknasti@...

                          > Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 21:41:43 +0000

                          > Subject: [coldwarcomms] Re: Western Electric WECO 14C Program Amplifier

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          > I owe a big THANK YOU! to Sam for the trouble and time he took to dig out the info he had and email me.

                          >

                          > I meant to edit my post before I sent it to the group to mention Sam as the source for the ONLY information I'd ever found. It was He whom confirmed that my amps are 14C's; the only marking on them is J68617W-2.

                          >

                          > There is no schematic # marked on the amps.

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          > I also want to thank everyone else whom replied. As I mentioned, I've had these quite a while (I've now realized that it's more like 15 years, not the 10 I mentioned). Every couple of years I pull one out and start looking for data on them. I've started to trace the circuit out myself more then once, but my health problems got in the way of any serious progress.

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          > In the 20+ hours I've spent looking for information on the WWW over the past few days there is a bright spot in addition to Sam's work. Someone uploaded some older WE transformer catalogs to the TCI site. They contain the data on all three of the transformers on the 14C's; the input (608A) the 2nd input (interstage) (609A) and the output (187A). I do want to thank whomever uploaded them.

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          > The only WE transmission transformer catalogs I had previously were the 1968 and 1964 that I brought home from Holmdel about 40 years ago. If they're not on the TCI site I will get my son to scan them and upload them.

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          > Armed with the xformer data I'm going to take another shot at tracing out the schematic.

                          >

                          > I now know that the output xformer has a 600 ohm secondary and several taps, one of which is 30 ohms. One of the BSP's from Sam showed the 14C in use as a monitor amp, using an autotransformer between the 30 ohm secondary and the 8 ohm 651A speaker. I suspect the 30 ohm tap is the lowest one or they wouldn't have used the autotransformer.

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          > Does any one have autotransformers or speakers they would like to sell or trade?

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          > I haven't looked up the tube specs yet (PP 310A's xformer coupled to 311A's PP outputs), but I'm thinking that I'll need both 160V and 320V in addition to lighting the heaters. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          > I intend to make this the year that I get these amps going and regain at least 75% of my health!

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          > Thanks all,

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          > Rick

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          > --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, Sam Etler <etler@> wrote:

                          >

                          > >

                          >

                          > > On Sun, Feb 5, 2012 at 10:18 AM, OZOB99 <ozob99@> wrote:

                          >

                          > >

                          >

                          > > > It's covered in the 320 layer of BSP's; Sam Etler has some related 320

                          >

                          > > > BSPs at etler.com/bsp but apparantly not the one on the 14C itself.

                          >

                          > > >

                          >

                          > > > Bell System SD's(schematic drawings) are very scarce online, especially on

                          >

                          > > > non-typical equipment like program amps;also SD's on CO equipment were

                          >

                          > > > typically 3-4 X 4-6 feet in size, making reproduction difficult at home.

                          >

                          > > >

                          >

                          > > > The BSP will provide the SD #, or it may be stenciled on the unit; good

                          >

                          > > > luck on finding it.

                          >

                          > > >

                          >

                          > >

                          >

                          > > An excerpt from an e-mail I sent to Rick before he asked on the list. BSPs

                          >

                          > > will be difficult to find but here's what I was able to dig up:

                          >

                          > >

                          >

                          > > To your specific question, the J68617W is the code for the 14C program

                          >

                          > > amplifier. Evidence of this can be found in 032-510-110, Issue 1 where the

                          >

                          > > 315A plug is described as "used with the P4S cord in program transmission

                          >

                          > > systems using the 14C program amplifier (J68617W)."

                          >

                          > >

                          >

                          > > It looks like the main BSP that covers the J68617 specification is

                          >

                          > > 804-101-151, Program Transmission Panels and Units. Unfortunately I don't

                          >

                          > > have a copy of this. 800 series BSPs in general are pretty difficult to

                          >

                          > > come by. There is also 804-105-181, 14C Program Amplifiers and Associated

                          >

                          > > Equipment, Performance Requirements which I don't have.

                          >

                          > >

                          >

                          > > I did come across a BSP section, 320-235-100, Program Switching Equipment

                          >

                          > > for Use With 12 or 14 Type Program Amplifiers. You can find it here:

                          >

                          > > http://etler.com/docs/BSP/320/320-235-100_I1.pdf

                          >

                          > >

                          >

                          > > There's also mention of the 14C being used in various settings in

                          >

                          > > 320-235-105, 1-2 and 1-4 Remote Control Program Switching Arrangements.

                          >

                          > > http://etler.com/docs/BSP/320/320-235-105_I1.pdf

                          >

                          > >

                          >

                          > > It's possible that there is a descriptive BSP for the 14C Program Amplifier

                          >

                          > > specifically but I'm not positive. The reason I think this is because it's

                          >

                          > > mentioned in the Equipment Test List for the 320 division in layer 320-230.

                          >

                          > > It looks like these sections were all cancelled by the time any indexes I

                          >

                          > > have were issued so I can't say for sure. The test methods BSP is

                          >

                          > > 320-230-500. If any of these exist I don't have them though.

                          >

                          > >

                          >

                          > > sam

                          >

                          > >

                          >

                          > >

                          >

                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                          >

                          > >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                          >


















                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Sam Etler
                          ... This is now in the TCI library and it looks like the schematic is SD-64357-01. Anyone have it? sam [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          Message 12 of 12 , Jul 20, 2013
                          • 0 Attachment
                            On Sun, Feb 5, 2012 at 10:46 AM, Sam Etler <etler@...> wrote:

                            > On Sun, Feb 5, 2012 at 10:18 AM, OZOB99 <ozob99@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >>
                            >> The BSP will provide the SD #, or it may be stenciled on the unit; good
                            >> luck on finding it.
                            >>
                            >
                            > It looks like the main BSP that covers the J68617 specification is
                            > 804-101-151
                            >

                            This is now in the TCI library and it looks like the schematic is
                            SD-64357-01. Anyone have it?

                            sam


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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