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Navy ELF/VLF and USCG LORAN A & C

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  • Mark Springer
    I am lookig to see if there are any USN ELF/VLF guys here - anyone who worked at Cutler or Annapolis or any of the other sub broadcast stations, or LORAN guys?
    Message 1 of 9 , May 27 10:20 AM
    • 0 Attachment
      I am lookig to see if there are any USN ELF/VLF guys here - anyone who
      worked at Cutler or Annapolis or any of the other sub broadcast stations, or
      LORAN guys?
      If you haven't looked at www.loran-history.info yet, give it a whirl, and
      especially the health issues page.
      For you Navy guys, there is a good chance that the finals in the ELF/VLF
      transmitters were/are xray emitters like the USCG finally figured out the
      PA's in AN/FPN-43/44 and 45 transmiters were!
      We are working to get onto the VA Ionizing Radiation Registry, so if anyone
      with knowledge of the Navy situation can sing out, that would be great.
      Bottom line: USCG LORAN crew members and quite possibly USN ELF/VLF station
      crew were subjected to what the VA calls "Military Occupational Exposure to
      Radiation" except we didn't know it, the services didn''t know it, no
      protective measures were taken and once the Coast Guard figured it out, they
      never notified former service members.

      And speaking of LORAN-C, anyone know or care to share how message traffic
      sent by CLARINET PILGRIM was originated and delivered to the LORSTA?

      Thanks and feel free to contact me off net about the xray exposure issue,
      de Mark WL7BCT

      Mark Springer
      Bethel, Alaska


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • OZOB99
      ... A related hazard could have affected the guys working around/near OTH radar & EMP simulators; here s a study on PAVE PAWS Cape Cod:
      Message 2 of 9 , Jun 11, 2011
      • 0 Attachment
        --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, Mark Springer <wl7bct@...> wrote:
        >
        > I am lookig to see if there are any USN ELF/VLF guys here - anyone who
        > worked at Cutler or Annapolis or any of the other sub broadcast stations, or
        > LORAN guys?
        > If you haven't looked at www.loran-history.info yet, give it a whirl, and
        > especially the health issues page.
        > For you Navy guys, there is a good chance that the finals in the ELF/VLF
        > transmitters were/are xray emitters like the USCG finally figured out the
        > PA's in AN/FPN-43/44 and 45 transmiters were!
        > We are working to get onto the VA Ionizing Radiation Registry, so if anyone
        > with knowledge of the Navy situation can sing out, that would be great.
        > Bottom line: USCG LORAN crew members and quite possibly USN ELF/VLF station
        > crew were subjected to what the VA calls "Military Occupational Exposure to
        > Radiation" except we didn't know it, the services didn''t know it, no
        > protective measures were taken and once the Coast Guard figured it out, they
        > never notified former service members.
        >
        > And speaking of LORAN-C, anyone know or care to share how message traffic
        > sent by CLARINET PILGRIM was originated and delivered to the LORSTA?
        >
        > Thanks and feel free to contact me off net about the xray exposure issue,
        > de Mark WL7BCT
        >
        > Mark Springer
        > Bethel, Alaska
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >


        A related hazard could have affected the guys working around/near OTH radar & EMP simulators; here's a study on PAVE PAWS Cape Cod:

        http://www.peterson.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-090318-067.pdf
      • Pj
        These UHF antenna s at the silo s or elsewhere...anyone know the freq range (broadband, narrow range or?). Also: 1-Are these RX only? 2-If not, how effective
        Message 3 of 9 , Jun 11, 2011
        • 0 Attachment
          These UHF antenna's at the silo's or elsewhere...anyone know the freq range (broadband, narrow range or?). Also:

          1-Are these RX only?
          2-If not, how effective are they at ground level?

          Etc etc..
        • Tim
          I know there s at least one former missile combat crew commander on this list who would know much better than I, but perhaps is a little timid on the subject.
          Message 4 of 9 , Jun 12, 2011
          • 0 Attachment
            I know there's at least one former missile combat crew commander on this
            list who would know
            much better than I, but perhaps is a little timid on the subject.

            Here's what I recall:

            225-400MHz tx/rx, used for non-secure voice comms with an inbound helo
            or ABNCP, maybe
            receiving ERCS back in the day (though ERCS was mostly for the airborne
            SIOP forces) & record-mode
            comms on GIANT STAR (AFSATCOM), & Airborne Launch Control System nets.

            From what I recall of open-source literature not in front of me right
            now, I believe the ALCS architecture
            allowed for the the ALCS aircraft to contribute a launch vote or control
            a Flight (10 Minutemen LFs) via ALCS
            link to the missile alert facility, *or* to bypass the Launch Control
            Center & link directly to Launch Facilities

            What I do not understand is how the system at the MAF/LCC was set-up
            in terms of
            network topology. If the combat crew was using that hardened UHF
            antenna to
            transmit LZ weather info to a UH-1 on 321.0MHz, my assumption would be that
            simultaneously receiving the 244MHz AFSATCOM transmissions wouldn't work
            due to de-sense,
            assuming they even had several different UHF radios hooked-up to the one
            antenna.

            I guess that they had a prioritized list of circuits for that UHF
            antenna (most seem to
            have been made by Collins & Boeing) & would switch circuits based on
            defense condition &
            other commands sent by force direction message or emergency action
            message. Ideally they
            would have talked to the helos via the VHF Ops/Security/Maintenance net
            channel & kept
            the UHF antenna freed-up for AFSATCOM & ALCS, probably ALCS had a
            totally separate
            radio designed to pre-empt any other use of the antenna, especially
            since AFSATCOM
            was mostly just another way for a MAF to receive FDMs/EAMs & transmit
            force status
            reports back to higher headquarters.


            I haven't been on it for years, but there may still be a Yahoo list
            called missiletalk that
            has some former Missileers on it that may be willing to provide a more
            factual answer your question
            instead of my semi-educated guesses.

            Tim

            On 6/11/2011 4:49 PM, Pj wrote:
            >
            > These UHF antenna's at the silo's or elsewhere...anyone know the freq
            > range (broadband, narrow range or?). Also:
            >
            > 1-Are these RX only?
            > 2-If not, how effective are they at ground level?
            >
            > Etc etc..
            >
            > __



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Thomas Maulding
            Tim: I am redirecting this message back to you ( Tim ) of this group requesting a possible confirmation of what he is referring to Pj as a hardened UHF
            Message 5 of 9 , Jun 13, 2011
            • 0 Attachment
              Tim:



              I am redirecting this message back to you ("Tim") of this group requesting
              a possible confirmation of what he is referring to "Pj" as a hardened UHF
              antenna.(no pictures were provided)



              Some years ago at an AT&T site in Williamstown Ky, I photographed what I
              believed was an unusual antenna mounted on an approx. 20-25 ft tall tapered
              concrete pillar which was the 2nd of 2 similar sites at that location (see
              attached B&W photos-sorry about the quality). Are these what you are
              referring to??(as hardened UHF antennas).



              A recent return to that site found that the MW tower is still standing (as
              are the E/F antenna and the GEP antennas on top of the MW tower) but the
              concrete pillars and attached antennas have been removed clear to the
              ground. Missing also were what I believed to be an underground concrete
              tunnel access from the former pillar(s) back to the AT&T bldg that provided
              access to the main bldg and/or tower site.



              Could anyone confirm that these are what "Tim" referred to as hardened UHF
              antenna sites( which obviously are no longer in use)??



              If so, who made the antennas & can anyone provide me with more details of
              their past use and if there are any other web sites that would provide me
              with more details?



              Tom

              From: coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com [mailto:coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com] On
              Behalf Of Tim
              Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 1:14 AM
              To: coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com
              Cc: Pj
              Subject: Re: [coldwarcomms] Hardened UHF antennas





              I know there's at least one former missile combat crew commander on this
              list who would know
              much better than I, but perhaps is a little timid on the subject.

              Here's what I recall:

              225-400MHz tx/rx, used for non-secure voice comms with an inbound helo
              or ABNCP, maybe
              receiving ERCS back in the day (though ERCS was mostly for the airborne
              SIOP forces) & record-mode
              comms on GIANT STAR (AFSATCOM), & Airborne Launch Control System nets.

              From what I recall of open-source literature not in front of me right
              now, I believe the ALCS architecture
              allowed for the the ALCS aircraft to contribute a launch vote or control
              a Flight (10 Minutemen LFs) via ALCS
              link to the missile alert facility, *or* to bypass the Launch Control
              Center & link directly to Launch Facilities

              What I do not understand is how the system at the MAF/LCC was set-up
              in terms of
              network topology. If the combat crew was using that hardened UHF
              antenna to
              transmit LZ weather info to a UH-1 on 321.0MHz, my assumption would be that
              simultaneously receiving the 244MHz AFSATCOM transmissions wouldn't work
              due to de-sense,
              assuming they even had several different UHF radios hooked-up to the one
              antenna.

              I guess that they had a prioritized list of circuits for that UHF
              antenna (most seem to
              have been made by Collins & Boeing) & would switch circuits based on
              defense condition &
              other commands sent by force direction message or emergency action
              message. Ideally they
              would have talked to the helos via the VHF Ops/Security/Maintenance net
              channel & kept
              the UHF antenna freed-up for AFSATCOM & ALCS, probably ALCS had a
              totally separate
              radio designed to pre-empt any other use of the antenna, especially
              since AFSATCOM
              was mostly just another way for a MAF to receive FDMs/EAMs & transmit
              force status
              reports back to higher headquarters.

              I haven't been on it for years, but there may still be a Yahoo list
              called missiletalk that
              has some former Missileers on it that may be willing to provide a more
              factual answer your question
              instead of my semi-educated guesses.

              Tim

              On 6/11/2011 4:49 PM, Pj wrote:
              >
              > These UHF antenna's at the silo's or elsewhere...anyone know the freq
              > range (broadband, narrow range or?). Also:
              >
              > 1-Are these RX only?
              > 2-If not, how effective are they at ground level?
              >
              > Etc etc..
              >
              > __

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



              _____

              No virus found in this message.
              Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
              Version: 10.0.1382 / Virus Database: 1513/3699 - Release Date: 06/12/11



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Tim
              I think it was pretty clear that the original post & my response dealt with an unusual type of hardened antenna seen at US ICBM Missile Alert Facilities &
              Message 6 of 9 , Jun 14, 2011
              • 0 Attachment
                I think it was pretty clear that the original post & my
                response dealt with an unusual type of hardened antenna
                seen at US ICBM Missile Alert Facilities & Launch Facilities.

                Your photos didn't come through, because for whatever reason,
                this group was set up a long time ago to not allow attached
                files.

                I haven't been to the Williamstown site but have been to many
                other GEP sites & am guessing that what you saw at the Williamstown
                one was indeed a hardened UHF (225-400MHz) antenna utilized for
                a clear/secure, voice & record-mode wideband FM multiplexed
                radio communications system that was a critical communications
                link for the Worldwide Airborne Command Post Program (including
                the Post Attack Command Control System) starting in the early 1960s.
                The system utilizes fixed-base & a few ground-mobile ground entry points
                for interfacing
                with terrestrial strategic communication networks, and also had & still
                has a lot of air/air activity. Current name of the network is Northstar
                (as in Mystic Star, SATSTAR, et al) & is a part of the US Senior Leadership
                C3 System.

                My best photos of the hardened MUX GEP antenna are probably from the
                old Fairview, Kansas GEP site:

                http://www.flickr.com/photos/coldwararchaeology/5291477083/in/set-72157625672978180/


                Not all of the fixed-site GEPs have/had the hardened antennas. As to
                who made them, I have a product brochure & military nomenclature in
                my files. I think my brochure is from the old Canadian Marconi Company.
                They were marketing the design for US & NATO naval vessels.


                "Tim"

                On 6/13/2011 6:35 PM, Thomas Maulding wrote:
                >
                > Tim:
                >
                > I am redirecting this message back to you ("Tim") of this group requesting
                > a possible confirmation of what he is referring to "Pj" as a hardened UHF
                > antenna.(no pictures were provided)
                >
                > Some years ago at an AT&T site in Williamstown Ky, I photographed what I
                > believed was an unusual antenna mounted on an approx. 20-25 ft tall
                > tapered
                > concrete pillar which was the 2nd of 2 similar sites at that location (see
                > attached B&W photos-sorry about the quality). Are these what you are
                > referring to??(as hardened UHF antennas).
                >
                > A recent return to that site found that the MW tower is still standing (as
                > are the E/F antenna and the GEP antennas on top of the MW tower) but the
                > concrete pillars and attached antennas have been removed clear to the
                > ground. Missing also were what I believed to be an underground concrete
                > tunnel access from the former pillar(s) back to the AT&T bldg that
                > provided
                > access to the main bldg and/or tower site.
                >
                > Could anyone confirm that these are what "Tim" referred to as hardened UHF
                > antenna sites( which obviously are no longer in use)??
                >
                > If so, who made the antennas & can anyone provide me with more details of
                > their past use and if there are any other web sites that would provide me
                > with more details?
                >
                > Tom
                >
                > From: coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com
                > <mailto:coldwarcomms%40yahoogroups.com>
                > [mailto:coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com
                > <mailto:coldwarcomms%40yahoogroups.com>] On
                > Behalf Of Tim
                > Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 1:14 AM
                > To: coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com <mailto:coldwarcomms%40yahoogroups.com>
                > Cc: Pj
                > Subject: Re: [coldwarcomms] Hardened UHF antennas
                >
                > I know there's at least one former missile combat crew commander on this
                > list who would know
                > much better than I, but perhaps is a little timid on the subject.
                >
                > Here's what I recall:
                >
                > 225-400MHz tx/rx, used for non-secure voice comms with an inbound helo
                > or ABNCP, maybe
                > receiving ERCS back in the day (though ERCS was mostly for the airborne
                > SIOP forces) & record-mode
                > comms on GIANT STAR (AFSATCOM), & Airborne Launch Control System nets.
                >
                > From what I recall of open-source literature not in front of me right
                > now, I believe the ALCS architecture
                > allowed for the the ALCS aircraft to contribute a launch vote or control
                > a Flight (10 Minutemen LFs) via ALCS
                > link to the missile alert facility, *or* to bypass the Launch Control
                > Center & link directly to Launch Facilities
                >
                > What I do not understand is how the system at the MAF/LCC was set-up
                > in terms of
                > network topology. If the combat crew was using that hardened UHF
                > antenna to
                > transmit LZ weather info to a UH-1 on 321.0MHz, my assumption would be
                > that
                > simultaneously receiving the 244MHz AFSATCOM transmissions wouldn't work
                > due to de-sense,
                > assuming they even had several different UHF radios hooked-up to the one
                > antenna.
                >
                > I guess that they had a prioritized list of circuits for that UHF
                > antenna (most seem to
                > have been made by Collins & Boeing) & would switch circuits based on
                > defense condition &
                > other commands sent by force direction message or emergency action
                > message. Ideally they
                > would have talked to the helos via the VHF Ops/Security/Maintenance net
                > channel & kept
                > the UHF antenna freed-up for AFSATCOM & ALCS, probably ALCS had a
                > totally separate
                > radio designed to pre-empt any other use of the antenna, especially
                > since AFSATCOM
                > was mostly just another way for a MAF to receive FDMs/EAMs & transmit
                > force status
                > reports back to higher headquarters.
                >
                > I haven't been on it for years, but there may still be a Yahoo list
                > called missiletalk that
                > has some former Missileers on it that may be willing to provide a more
                > factual answer your question
                > instead of my semi-educated guesses.
                >
                > Tim
                >
                > On 6/11/2011 4:49 PM, Pj wrote:
                > >
                > > These UHF antenna's at the silo's or elsewhere...anyone know the freq
                > > range (broadband, narrow range or?). Also:
                > >
                > > 1-Are these RX only?
                > > 2-If not, how effective are they at ground level?
                > >
                > > Etc etc..
                > >
                > > __
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Ken Bowles
                Here is a link to photo of a hardened UHF antenna at a missile underground command site . . . this one is at Whiteman AFB MO. The site is inactive:
                Message 7 of 9 , Jun 14, 2011
                • 0 Attachment
                  Here is a link to photo of a hardened UHF antenna at a missile underground
                  command site . . . this one is at Whiteman AFB MO. The site is inactive:
                  www.gillespie-bowles.org/DSC02943.JPG . BTW, there is a very interesting
                  tour.

                  Ken

                  On Tue, Jun 14, 2011 at 3:29 PM, Tim <polohat@...> wrote:

                  >
                  >
                  > I think it was pretty clear that the original post & my
                  > response dealt with an unusual type of hardened antenna
                  > seen at US ICBM Missile Alert Facilities & Launch Facilities.
                  >
                  > Your photos didn't come through, because for whatever reason,
                  > this group was set up a long time ago to not allow attached
                  > files.
                  >
                  > I haven't been to the Williamstown site but have been to many
                  > other GEP sites & am guessing that what you saw at the Williamstown
                  > one was indeed a hardened UHF (225-400MHz) antenna utilized for
                  > a clear/secure, voice & record-mode wideband FM multiplexed
                  > radio communications system that was a critical communications
                  > link for the Worldwide Airborne Command Post Program (including
                  > the Post Attack Command Control System) starting in the early 1960s.
                  > The system utilizes fixed-base & a few ground-mobile ground entry points
                  > for interfacing
                  > with terrestrial strategic communication networks, and also had & still
                  > has a lot of air/air activity. Current name of the network is Northstar
                  > (as in Mystic Star, SATSTAR, et al) & is a part of the US Senior Leadership
                  > C3 System.
                  >
                  > My best photos of the hardened MUX GEP antenna are probably from the
                  > old Fairview, Kansas GEP site:
                  >
                  >
                  > http://www.flickr.com/photos/coldwararchaeology/5291477083/in/set-72157625672978180/
                  >
                  > Not all of the fixed-site GEPs have/had the hardened antennas. As to
                  > who made them, I have a product brochure & military nomenclature in
                  > my files. I think my brochure is from the old Canadian Marconi Company.
                  > They were marketing the design for US & NATO naval vessels.
                  >
                  > "Tim"
                  >
                  > On 6/13/2011 6:35 PM, Thomas Maulding wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Tim:
                  > >
                  > > I am redirecting this message back to you ("Tim") of this group
                  > requesting
                  > > a possible confirmation of what he is referring to "Pj" as a hardened UHF
                  > > antenna.(no pictures were provided)
                  > >
                  > > Some years ago at an AT&T site in Williamstown Ky, I photographed what I
                  > > believed was an unusual antenna mounted on an approx. 20-25 ft tall
                  > > tapered
                  > > concrete pillar which was the 2nd of 2 similar sites at that location
                  > (see
                  > > attached B&W photos-sorry about the quality). Are these what you are
                  > > referring to??(as hardened UHF antennas).
                  > >
                  > > A recent return to that site found that the MW tower is still standing
                  > (as
                  > > are the E/F antenna and the GEP antennas on top of the MW tower) but the
                  > > concrete pillars and attached antennas have been removed clear to the
                  > > ground. Missing also were what I believed to be an underground concrete
                  > > tunnel access from the former pillar(s) back to the AT&T bldg that
                  > > provided
                  > > access to the main bldg and/or tower site.
                  > >
                  > > Could anyone confirm that these are what "Tim" referred to as hardened
                  > UHF
                  > > antenna sites( which obviously are no longer in use)??
                  > >
                  > > If so, who made the antennas & can anyone provide me with more details of
                  > > their past use and if there are any other web sites that would provide me
                  > > with more details?
                  > >
                  > > Tom
                  > >
                  > > From: coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com
                  > > <mailto:coldwarcomms%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > > [mailto:coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com
                  > > <mailto:coldwarcomms%40yahoogroups.com>] On
                  > > Behalf Of Tim
                  > > Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 1:14 AM
                  > > To: coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com <mailto:coldwarcomms%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > > Cc: Pj
                  > > Subject: Re: [coldwarcomms] Hardened UHF antennas
                  > >
                  > > I know there's at least one former missile combat crew commander on this
                  > > list who would know
                  > > much better than I, but perhaps is a little timid on the subject.
                  > >
                  > > Here's what I recall:
                  > >
                  > > 225-400MHz tx/rx, used for non-secure voice comms with an inbound helo
                  > > or ABNCP, maybe
                  > > receiving ERCS back in the day (though ERCS was mostly for the airborne
                  > > SIOP forces) & record-mode
                  > > comms on GIANT STAR (AFSATCOM), & Airborne Launch Control System nets.
                  > >
                  > > From what I recall of open-source literature not in front of me right
                  > > now, I believe the ALCS architecture
                  > > allowed for the the ALCS aircraft to contribute a launch vote or control
                  > > a Flight (10 Minutemen LFs) via ALCS
                  > > link to the missile alert facility, *or* to bypass the Launch Control
                  > > Center & link directly to Launch Facilities
                  > >
                  > > What I do not understand is how the system at the MAF/LCC was set-up
                  > > in terms of
                  > > network topology. If the combat crew was using that hardened UHF
                  > > antenna to
                  > > transmit LZ weather info to a UH-1 on 321.0MHz, my assumption would be
                  > > that
                  > > simultaneously receiving the 244MHz AFSATCOM transmissions wouldn't work
                  > > due to de-sense,
                  > > assuming they even had several different UHF radios hooked-up to the one
                  > > antenna.
                  > >
                  > > I guess that they had a prioritized list of circuits for that UHF
                  > > antenna (most seem to
                  > > have been made by Collins & Boeing) & would switch circuits based on
                  > > defense condition &
                  > > other commands sent by force direction message or emergency action
                  > > message. Ideally they
                  > > would have talked to the helos via the VHF Ops/Security/Maintenance net
                  > > channel & kept
                  > > the UHF antenna freed-up for AFSATCOM & ALCS, probably ALCS had a
                  > > totally separate
                  > > radio designed to pre-empt any other use of the antenna, especially
                  > > since AFSATCOM
                  > > was mostly just another way for a MAF to receive FDMs/EAMs & transmit
                  > > force status
                  > > reports back to higher headquarters.
                  > >
                  > > I haven't been on it for years, but there may still be a Yahoo list
                  > > called missiletalk that
                  > > has some former Missileers on it that may be willing to provide a more
                  > > factual answer your question
                  > > instead of my semi-educated guesses.
                  > >
                  > > Tim
                  > >
                  > > On 6/11/2011 4:49 PM, Pj wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > These UHF antenna's at the silo's or elsewhere...anyone know the freq
                  > > > range (broadband, narrow range or?). Also:
                  > > >
                  > > > 1-Are these RX only?
                  > > > 2-If not, how effective are they at ground level?
                  > > >
                  > > > Etc etc..
                  > > >
                  > > > __
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Ken Bowles
                  Also, if my 66 year old memory is working right today, the foundation in the upper right of the picture was for a dismantled HF antenna. Ken ... [Non-text
                  Message 8 of 9 , Jun 14, 2011
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Also, if my 66 year old memory is working right today, the foundation in the
                    upper right of the picture was for a dismantled HF antenna.

                    Ken

                    On Tue, Jun 14, 2011 at 3:50 PM, Ken Bowles <ken.dl5bk@...> wrote:

                    > Here is a link to photo of a hardened UHF antenna at a missile underground
                    > command site . . . this one is at Whiteman AFB MO. The site is inactive:
                    > www.gillespie-bowles.org/DSC02943.JPG . BTW, there is a very interesting
                    > tour.
                    >
                    > Ken
                    >
                    > On Tue, Jun 14, 2011 at 3:29 PM, Tim <polohat@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> I think it was pretty clear that the original post & my
                    >> response dealt with an unusual type of hardened antenna
                    >> seen at US ICBM Missile Alert Facilities & Launch Facilities.
                    >>
                    >> Your photos didn't come through, because for whatever reason,
                    >> this group was set up a long time ago to not allow attached
                    >> files.
                    >>
                    >> I haven't been to the Williamstown site but have been to many
                    >> other GEP sites & am guessing that what you saw at the Williamstown
                    >> one was indeed a hardened UHF (225-400MHz) antenna utilized for
                    >> a clear/secure, voice & record-mode wideband FM multiplexed
                    >> radio communications system that was a critical communications
                    >> link for the Worldwide Airborne Command Post Program (including
                    >> the Post Attack Command Control System) starting in the early 1960s.
                    >> The system utilizes fixed-base & a few ground-mobile ground entry points
                    >> for interfacing
                    >> with terrestrial strategic communication networks, and also had & still
                    >> has a lot of air/air activity. Current name of the network is Northstar
                    >> (as in Mystic Star, SATSTAR, et al) & is a part of the US Senior
                    >> Leadership
                    >> C3 System.
                    >>
                    >> My best photos of the hardened MUX GEP antenna are probably from the
                    >> old Fairview, Kansas GEP site:
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/coldwararchaeology/5291477083/in/set-72157625672978180/
                    >>
                    >> Not all of the fixed-site GEPs have/had the hardened antennas. As to
                    >> who made them, I have a product brochure & military nomenclature in
                    >> my files. I think my brochure is from the old Canadian Marconi Company.
                    >> They were marketing the design for US & NATO naval vessels.
                    >>
                    >> "Tim"
                    >>
                    >> On 6/13/2011 6:35 PM, Thomas Maulding wrote:
                    >> >
                    >> > Tim:
                    >> >
                    >> > I am redirecting this message back to you ("Tim") of this group
                    >> requesting
                    >> > a possible confirmation of what he is referring to "Pj" as a hardened
                    >> UHF
                    >> > antenna.(no pictures were provided)
                    >> >
                    >> > Some years ago at an AT&T site in Williamstown Ky, I photographed what I
                    >> > believed was an unusual antenna mounted on an approx. 20-25 ft tall
                    >> > tapered
                    >> > concrete pillar which was the 2nd of 2 similar sites at that location
                    >> (see
                    >> > attached B&W photos-sorry about the quality). Are these what you are
                    >> > referring to??(as hardened UHF antennas).
                    >> >
                    >> > A recent return to that site found that the MW tower is still standing
                    >> (as
                    >> > are the E/F antenna and the GEP antennas on top of the MW tower) but the
                    >> > concrete pillars and attached antennas have been removed clear to the
                    >> > ground. Missing also were what I believed to be an underground concrete
                    >> > tunnel access from the former pillar(s) back to the AT&T bldg that
                    >> > provided
                    >> > access to the main bldg and/or tower site.
                    >> >
                    >> > Could anyone confirm that these are what "Tim" referred to as hardened
                    >> UHF
                    >> > antenna sites( which obviously are no longer in use)??
                    >> >
                    >> > If so, who made the antennas & can anyone provide me with more details
                    >> of
                    >> > their past use and if there are any other web sites that would provide
                    >> me
                    >> > with more details?
                    >> >
                    >> > Tom
                    >> >
                    >> > From: coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com
                    >> > <mailto:coldwarcomms%40yahoogroups.com>
                    >> > [mailto:coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com
                    >> > <mailto:coldwarcomms%40yahoogroups.com>] On
                    >> > Behalf Of Tim
                    >> > Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 1:14 AM
                    >> > To: coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com <mailto:coldwarcomms%40yahoogroups.com
                    >> >
                    >> > Cc: Pj
                    >> > Subject: Re: [coldwarcomms] Hardened UHF antennas
                    >> >
                    >> > I know there's at least one former missile combat crew commander on this
                    >> > list who would know
                    >> > much better than I, but perhaps is a little timid on the subject.
                    >> >
                    >> > Here's what I recall:
                    >> >
                    >> > 225-400MHz tx/rx, used for non-secure voice comms with an inbound helo
                    >> > or ABNCP, maybe
                    >> > receiving ERCS back in the day (though ERCS was mostly for the airborne
                    >> > SIOP forces) & record-mode
                    >> > comms on GIANT STAR (AFSATCOM), & Airborne Launch Control System nets.
                    >> >
                    >> > From what I recall of open-source literature not in front of me right
                    >> > now, I believe the ALCS architecture
                    >> > allowed for the the ALCS aircraft to contribute a launch vote or control
                    >> > a Flight (10 Minutemen LFs) via ALCS
                    >> > link to the missile alert facility, *or* to bypass the Launch Control
                    >> > Center & link directly to Launch Facilities
                    >> >
                    >> > What I do not understand is how the system at the MAF/LCC was set-up
                    >> > in terms of
                    >> > network topology. If the combat crew was using that hardened UHF
                    >> > antenna to
                    >> > transmit LZ weather info to a UH-1 on 321.0MHz, my assumption would be
                    >> > that
                    >> > simultaneously receiving the 244MHz AFSATCOM transmissions wouldn't work
                    >> > due to de-sense,
                    >> > assuming they even had several different UHF radios hooked-up to the one
                    >> > antenna.
                    >> >
                    >> > I guess that they had a prioritized list of circuits for that UHF
                    >> > antenna (most seem to
                    >> > have been made by Collins & Boeing) & would switch circuits based on
                    >> > defense condition &
                    >> > other commands sent by force direction message or emergency action
                    >> > message. Ideally they
                    >> > would have talked to the helos via the VHF Ops/Security/Maintenance net
                    >> > channel & kept
                    >> > the UHF antenna freed-up for AFSATCOM & ALCS, probably ALCS had a
                    >> > totally separate
                    >> > radio designed to pre-empt any other use of the antenna, especially
                    >> > since AFSATCOM
                    >> > was mostly just another way for a MAF to receive FDMs/EAMs & transmit
                    >> > force status
                    >> > reports back to higher headquarters.
                    >> >
                    >> > I haven't been on it for years, but there may still be a Yahoo list
                    >> > called missiletalk that
                    >> > has some former Missileers on it that may be willing to provide a more
                    >> > factual answer your question
                    >> > instead of my semi-educated guesses.
                    >> >
                    >> > Tim
                    >> >
                    >> > On 6/11/2011 4:49 PM, Pj wrote:
                    >> > >
                    >> > > These UHF antenna's at the silo's or elsewhere...anyone know the freq
                    >> > > range (broadband, narrow range or?). Also:
                    >> > >
                    >> > > 1-Are these RX only?
                    >> > > 2-If not, how effective are they at ground level?
                    >> > >
                    >> > > Etc etc..
                    >> > >
                    >> > > __
                    >> >
                    >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >> >
                    >>
                    >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • AT&T Project
                    Tom, As has already been pointed out, the hardened antennas at the missile sites are different from those at Fairview and Williamstown. As for the antennas at
                    Message 9 of 9 , Jul 4, 2011
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Tom,

                      As has already been pointed out, the hardened antennas at the missile sites
                      are different from those at Fairview and Williamstown.

                      As for the antennas at Williamstown, I do not believe that there is a
                      "tunnel" between the building and the antennas, only a conduit for cables.
                      Also, be aware that there are/were two identical hardened antennas at the
                      site. The one in the field on the ridge may be gone (I think it was on the
                      neighbor's property, maybe on an easement/ROW) but the one on in the woods
                      behind the facility is almost certainly still there.


                      On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 8:35 PM, Thomas Maulding <tmaulding@...>wrote:

                      > **
                      >
                      >
                      > Tim:
                      >
                      > I am redirecting this message back to you ("Tim") of this group requesting
                      > a possible confirmation of what he is referring to "Pj" as a hardened UHF
                      > antenna.(no pictures were provided)
                      >
                      > Some years ago at an AT&T site in Williamstown Ky, I photographed what I
                      > believed was an unusual antenna mounted on an approx. 20-25 ft tall tapered
                      > concrete pillar which was the 2nd of 2 similar sites at that location (see
                      > attached B&W photos-sorry about the quality). Are these what you are
                      > referring to??(as hardened UHF antennas).
                      >
                      > A recent return to that site found that the MW tower is still standing (as
                      > are the E/F antenna and the GEP antennas on top of the MW tower) but the
                      > concrete pillars and attached antennas have been removed clear to the
                      > ground. Missing also were what I believed to be an underground concrete
                      > tunnel access from the former pillar(s) back to the AT&T bldg that provided
                      > access to the main bldg and/or tower site.
                      >
                      > Could anyone confirm that these are what "Tim" referred to as hardened UHF
                      > antenna sites( which obviously are no longer in use)??
                      >
                      > If so, who made the antennas & can anyone provide me with more details of
                      > their past use and if there are any other web sites that would provide me
                      > with more details?
                      >
                      > Tom
                      >


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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