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Re: [coldwarcomms] High Power Radio

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  • Jim Johnson
    Tom,   I had the opportunity to spend a one year ADSW (Active Duty - Special Work) at Key West when it was still JIATF-East.  The antennas you refer to were,
    Message 1 of 25 , Feb 1, 2010
      Tom,
       
      I had the opportunity to spend a one year ADSW (Active Duty - Special Work) at Key West when it was still JIATF-East.  The antennas you refer to were, indeed, for the purposes of "looking in" on Cuba.  The FBIS had a facility on site which they used to monitor and record Cuban Radio & TV broadcasts, along with other "special interest" programming.  You'll note that the antenna arrangements consist of a number of paired antennas with a total of, if I remember correctly, six sets.  With each pair, one is angled downward while the other is angled upward.  This was to ensure a satisfactory "look angle" as the F layer changed from day to night.  You may draw your own conclusions as to any other signals that were being snatched given the larger CN (Counter Narcotics) mission being carried out by other folks.
       
      Jim Johnson
      Grand Haven, MI

      --- On Sun, 1/31/10, Radioman390@... <Radioman390@...> wrote:


      From: Radioman390@... <Radioman390@...>
      Subject: Re: [coldwarcomms] High Power Radio
      To: coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Sunday, January 31, 2010, 9:27 PM


       




      -----Original Message-----
      From: Tom Scanlan <tomandsue@pasty. com>

      Also, anyone know the purpose of the numerous UHF-TV looking receive antennae on the big self supporting tower in the back of the JTF compound at the NAS Key West site adjacent to Truman Annex? Same with the four vertically polarized log periodic antennae? We're heading down there in a couple weeks....

      I've been there and noticed them too.

      Havana is 90 miles across the water, therefore I would suggest that those antennas are log periodics to pick all sorts of radio signals.
      For the UHF+ frequencies they might have a ship anchored outside the 12 mile limit with receivers which are then upconverted to other freqs for the final hop. Just conjecture on my part.

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Kam Abbott
      500 kW! http://hawkins.pair.com/wlw.shtml ... From: coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com [mailto:coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Radioman390@cs.com Sent:
      Message 2 of 25 , Feb 1, 2010
        500 kW!

        http://hawkins.pair.com/wlw.shtml


        -----Original Message-----
        From: coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com [mailto:coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Radioman390@...
        Sent: January 31, 2010 2:21 AM
        To: coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [coldwarcomms] High Power Radio




        Didn't WLW run 250 kW in the past?

        Not to be disregarded is the fact that many AM stations have directional antennas and may
        put a larger equivalent signal in some directions; that is the FCC allowed the power out of the transmitter to
        be 50kW (or whatever), but if the antenna was more efficient in some directions, so be it. This applied
        to the early days of broadcasting (into the early 50s), and later stations on the same frequency had to use
        directional antennas or low power to fit in. Also, because of the AM band's propagation characteristics changing at night
        and at dusk, newer stations might have to change their power or antenna patterns several times on a clock.

        I worked at WQXR AM/FM in New York, and there was a station on our AM frequency(1560) in California that
        had to "protect" us at dusk by running lower power, all having to do with the darkening skies traveling across the country and playing with our signal. They were over 2000 miles away, but WQXR had "grandfathered" coverage rights. This was the true meaning of "Clear Channel" stations (not the company by that name).

        There's also the issue of ground conductivity at AM frequencies. The FCC has maps in its rules showing the ground conductivity across the US, and when determining the "reach" of an AM signal, engineers had to allow for further enhancement or diminution of
        the signal as it traveled. Sea water (salt) had the highest conductivity. Conductivity changes with frequency, so there were a bunch of FCC charts for different frequencies in the technical rules.

        -----Original Message-----
        From: David <wb8foz@...>
        To: coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sun, Jan 31, 2010 12:24 am
        Subject: [coldwarcomms] High Power Radio

        >You can always query the FCC's AM and FM radio databases.

        I suggest using the fccinfo.com front end site; it gives you a number of
        useful tools [Google Earth...] for looking at sites.

        The biggest AM broadcast stations in the US are 50KW day & night. WLW is
        one, as are other famous names from a past era: WJR, WABC, WTAM, KDKA, WGN,
        WLS......

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Tom Scanlan
        Hi Jim- Thanks so much for your response! Those antennae have bugged me for a few years, and I am privileged to hear from you, who actually worked at the
        Message 3 of 25 , Feb 1, 2010
          Hi Jim-
          Thanks so much for your response! Those antennae have bugged me for a few years, and I am privileged to hear from you, who actually worked at the base! Last time I was there - January, 2009, the building was still marked Joint Task Force South - is that the same as JIATF?


          One day the gates happened to be down into the front parking lot, so I just walked up and went in. Confronted with a locked door in the lobby, I pressed the button and the door opened, allowing me into the next lobby, and there was a thick glass behind which were about three VERY serious looking people. I introduced myself, presented my ID card, and asked if I could have a tour!


          That shorted all their circuits! One guy then said "we don't do tours", to which I asked to talk to someone from Public Affairs. Again, the circuits blew, and the three people behind the glass just glowered at me, hoping I'd go away. Finally one guy told me to wait and he'd get someone. About 10 minutes later a lady - 40ish - came down and out to greet me, and I gave her my ID card, said I had worked in satellite communications, was a retired USAF LtCol, and could I have a tour.


          She said tours were possible, but rarely were they given to individuals. She suggested I contact the Key West associations related to the military, perhaps the local Navy League chapter, the Military Affairs Committee of the Chamber, etc, and that would probably be the best place to hook up with a group that would be having a tour.


          She took my email address, and I emailed her back, asking about the antennae. Never heard anything back, but we didn't get a knock on our door from the DIA/CIA/Secret Service/FBI, either. <grin>


          Jim, thanks again for your reply. Curious as to your career and what you did...obviously in the reserves at one time. I see you are living in Grand Haven. We're Michiganders as well, Yoopers, actually, Copper Falls. Small ghost town 30 miles north of Houghton. Both of us went to Mich State. I did 11 active and 27 reserve in the USAF.


          Best-


          Tom


          -----Original Message-----
          From: Jim Johnson <jasbo01@...>
          To: coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:04 am
          Subject: Re: [coldwarcomms] High Power Radio





          Tom,

          I had the opportunity to spend a one year ADSW (Active Duty - Special Work) at Key West when it was still JIATF-East. The antennas you refer to were, indeed, for the purposes of "looking in" on Cuba. The FBIS had a facility on site which they used to monitor and record Cuban Radio & TV broadcasts, along with other "special interest" programming. You'll note that the antenna arrangements consist of a number of paired antennas with a total of, if I remember correctly, six sets. With each pair, one is angled downward while the other is angled upward. This was to ensure a satisfactory "look angle" as the F layer changed from day to night. You may draw your own conclusions as to any other signals that were being snatched given the larger CN (Counter Narcotics) mission being carried out by other folks.

          Jim Johnson
          Grand Haven, MI

          --- On Sun, 1/31/10, Radioman390@... <Radioman390@...> wrote:

          From: Radioman390@... <Radioman390@...>
          Subject: Re: [coldwarcomms] High Power Radio
          To: coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Sunday, January 31, 2010, 9:27 PM



          -----Original Message-----
          From: Tom Scanlan <tomandsue@pasty. com>

          Also, anyone know the purpose of the numerous UHF-TV looking receive antennae on the big self supporting tower in the back of the JTF compound at the NAS Key West site adjacent to Truman Annex? Same with the four vertically polarized log periodic antennae? We're heading down there in a couple weeks....

          I've been there and noticed them too.

          Havana is 90 miles across the water, therefore I would suggest that those antennas are log periodics to pick all sorts of radio signals.
          For the UHF+ frequencies they might have a ship anchored outside the 12 mile limit with receivers which are then upconverted to other freqs for the final hop. Just conjecture on my part.

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]









          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • wx_watch
          I had the opportunity to visit Truman Annex (for a sailing regatta) about 10 years back and noticed the antennae that others have mentioned. I m sure they were
          Message 4 of 25 , Feb 2, 2010
            I had the opportunity to visit Truman Annex (for a sailing regatta) about 10 years back and noticed the antennae that others have mentioned. I'm sure they were state of the art for their intended purposes, as mentioned below.

            My question regards the FBIS antenna array that I saw located on the grounds near the beach. Not located on a tower but rather a series of small (maybe 2 feet in diameter) vertical hoops in a distinctive pattern on the ground. I assume they were pointed towards Cuba. AND, I also assume they were used for the "magnetic" field, as opposed to the electric field component of the radio signal(s).

            The question for the group:

            Can anyone educate me as to the advantage of looking at the magnetic component, as opposed to the typical antennae I am used to seeing in normal circumstances?

            Many thanks,
            John

            --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, Jim Johnson <jasbo01@...> wrote:
            >
            > Tom,
            >  
            > I had the opportunity to spend a one year ADSW (Active Duty - Special Work) at Key West when it was still JIATF-East.  The antennas you refer to were, indeed, for the purposes of "looking in" on Cuba.  The FBIS had a facility on site which they used to monitor and record Cuban Radio & TV broadcasts, along with other "special interest" programming.  You'll note that the antenna arrangements consist of a number of paired antennas with a total of, if I remember correctly, six sets.  With each pair, one is angled downward while the other is angled upward.  This was to ensure a satisfactory "look angle" as the F layer changed from day to night.  You may draw your own conclusions as to any other signals that were being snatched given the larger CN (Counter Narcotics) mission being carried out by other folks.
            >  
            > Jim Johnson
            > Grand Haven, MI
            >
            >>>> SNIP
          • taskforceleader
            I have used HF loop antennas before and they are less susceptable to static bursts.
            Message 5 of 25 , Feb 2, 2010
              I have used HF loop antennas before and they are less susceptable to static bursts.


              --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, "wx_watch" <wx_watch@...> wrote:
              >
              > I had the opportunity to visit Truman Annex (for a sailing regatta) about 10 years back and noticed the antennae that others have mentioned. I'm sure they were state of the art for their intended purposes, as mentioned below.
              >
              > My question regards the FBIS antenna array that I saw located on the grounds near the beach. Not located on a tower but rather a series of small (maybe 2 feet in diameter) vertical hoops in a distinctive pattern on the ground. I assume they were pointed towards Cuba. AND, I also assume they were used for the "magnetic" field, as opposed to the electric field component of the radio signal(s).
              >
              > The question for the group:
              >
              > Can anyone educate me as to the advantage of looking at the magnetic component, as opposed to the typical antennae I am used to seeing in normal circumstances?
              >
              > Many thanks,
              > John
              >
              > --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, Jim Johnson <jasbo01@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Tom,
              > >  
              > > I had the opportunity to spend a one year ADSW (Active Duty - Special Work) at Key West when it was still JIATF-East.  The antennas you refer to were, indeed, for the purposes of "looking in" on Cuba.  The FBIS had a facility on site which they used to monitor and record Cuban Radio & TV broadcasts, along with other "special interest" programming.  You'll note that the antenna arrangements consist of a number of paired antennas with a total of, if I remember correctly, six sets.  With each pair, one is angled downward while the other is angled upward.  This was to ensure a satisfactory "look angle" as the F layer changed from day to night.  You may draw your own conclusions as to any other signals that were being snatched given the larger CN (Counter Narcotics) mission being carried out by other folks.
              > >  
              > > Jim Johnson
              > > Grand Haven, MI
              > >
              > >>>> SNIP
              >
            • Eric
              There s also a similar loop array set up at the Coast Guard station by the Miami Zoo. Bing has a better view, but I cant figure out how to link to it so here
              Message 6 of 25 , Feb 2, 2010
                There's also a similar loop array set up at the Coast Guard station by the
                Miami Zoo. Bing has a better view, but I cant figure out how to link to it
                so here is google maps...

                <
                http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=miami,+fl&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=46.14027,57.919922&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Miami,+Miami-Dade,+Florida&ll=25.617002,-80.385692&spn=0.001613,0.002789&t=h&z=19
                >

                http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=miami,+fl&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=46.14027,57.919922&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Miami,+Miami-Dade,+Florida&ll=25.617002,-80.385692&spn=0.001613,0.002789&t=h&z=19


                On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 10:33 AM, taskforceleader <mcfoster@...> wrote:

                >
                >
                >
                > I have used HF loop antennas before and they are less susceptable to static
                > bursts.
                >
                >
                > --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com <coldwarcomms%40yahoogroups.com>,
                > "wx_watch" <wx_watch@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > I had the opportunity to visit Truman Annex (for a sailing regatta) about
                > 10 years back and noticed the antennae that others have mentioned. I'm sure
                > they were state of the art for their intended purposes, as mentioned below.
                > >
                > > My question regards the FBIS antenna array that I saw located on the
                > grounds near the beach. Not located on a tower but rather a series of small
                > (maybe 2 feet in diameter) vertical hoops in a distinctive pattern on the
                > ground. I assume they were pointed towards Cuba. AND, I also assume they
                > were used for the "magnetic" field, as opposed to the electric field
                > component of the radio signal(s).
                > >
                > > The question for the group:
                > >
                > > Can anyone educate me as to the advantage of looking at the magnetic
                > component, as opposed to the typical antennae I am used to seeing in normal
                > circumstances?
                > >
                > > Many thanks,
                > > John
                > >
                > > --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com <coldwarcomms%40yahoogroups.com>,
                > Jim Johnson <jasbo01@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Tom,
                > > > �
                > > > I had the opportunity to spend a one year ADSW (Active Duty - Special
                > Work) at Key West when it was still JIATF-East.� The antennas you refer to
                > were, indeed, for the purposes of "looking in" on Cuba.� The FBIS had a
                > facility on site which they used to monitor and record Cuban Radio & TV
                > broadcasts, along with other "special interest" programming.� You'll note
                > that the antenna arrangements consist of a number of paired antennas with a
                > total of, if I remember correctly, six sets.� With each pair, one is angled
                > downward while the other is angled upward.� This was to ensure a
                > satisfactory "look angle" as the F layer changed from day to night.� You
                > may draw your own conclusions as to any other signals that were being
                > snatched given the larger CN (Counter Narcotics) mission being carried out
                > by other folks.
                > > > �
                > > > Jim Johnson
                > > > Grand Haven, MI
                > > >
                > > >>>> SNIP
                > >
                >
                >
                >



                --
                www.akaradio.com
                www.er1c.net


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Bill Smith
                FEMA had six of those loops on the ground at their facility in Massachusetts a few years back. They are HF loops. the advantage of using the magnetic field
                Message 7 of 25 , Feb 2, 2010
                  FEMA had six of those loops on the ground at their facility in Massachusetts a few years back. They are HF loops. the advantage of using the magnetic field versus the electrical field is static and noise. The magnetic field is much better at rejecting it. If you are interested in experimenting , here is an inexpensive kit:  http://www.ramseyelectronics.com/cgi-bin/commerce.exe?preadd=action&key=SM100

                  Bill



                  ________________________________
                  From: wx_watch <wx_watch@...>
                  To: coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Tue, February 2, 2010 9:27:40 AM
                  Subject: [coldwarcomms] Re: High Power Radio

                   
                  I had the opportunity to visit Truman Annex (for a sailing regatta) about 10 years back and noticed the antennae that others have mentioned. I'm sure they were state of the art for their intended purposes, as mentioned below.

                  My question regards the FBIS antenna array that I saw located on the grounds near the beach. Not located on a tower but rather a series of small (maybe 2 feet in diameter) vertical hoops in a distinctive pattern on the ground. I assume they were pointed towards Cuba. AND, I also assume they were used for the "magnetic" field, as opposed to the electric field component of the radio signal(s).

                  The question for the group:

                  Can anyone educate me as to the advantage of looking at the magnetic component, as opposed to the typical antennae I am used to seeing in normal circumstances?

                  Many thanks,
                  John

                  --- In coldwarcomms@ yahoogroups. com, Jim Johnson <jasbo01@... > wrote:
                  >
                  > Tom,
                  >  
                  > I had the opportunity to spend a one year ADSW (Active Duty - Special Work) at Key West when it was still JIATF-East.  The antennas you refer to were, indeed, for the purposes of "looking in" on Cuba.  The FBIS had a facility on site which they used to monitor and record Cuban Radio & TV broadcasts, along with other "special interest" programming.  You'll note that the antenna arrangements consist of a number of paired antennas with a total of, if I remember correctly, six sets.  With each pair, one is angled downward while the other is angled upward.  This was to ensure a satisfactory "look angle" as the F layer changed from day to night.  You may draw your own conclusions as to any other signals that were being snatched given the larger CN (Counter Narcotics) mission being carried out by other folks.
                  >  
                  > Jim Johnson
                  > Grand Haven, MI
                  >
                  >>>> SNIP




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Jim Johnson
                  Tom,   The loops in the circular array on the ground that you reference are called Hermes Loop Antennas ...used for HF reception.   Jim Johnson Grand Haven,
                  Message 8 of 25 , Feb 2, 2010
                    Tom,
                     
                    The loops in the circular array on the ground that you reference are called "Hermes Loop Antennas"...used for HF reception.
                     
                    Jim Johnson
                    Grand Haven, MI

                    --- On Tue, 2/2/10, wx_watch <wx_watch@...> wrote:


                    From: wx_watch <wx_watch@...>
                    Subject: [coldwarcomms] Re: High Power Radio
                    To: coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Tuesday, February 2, 2010, 10:27 AM


                     



                    I had the opportunity to visit Truman Annex (for a sailing regatta) about 10 years back and noticed the antennae that others have mentioned. I'm sure they were state of the art for their intended purposes, as mentioned below.

                    My question regards the FBIS antenna array that I saw located on the grounds near the beach. Not located on a tower but rather a series of small (maybe 2 feet in diameter) vertical hoops in a distinctive pattern on the ground. I assume they were pointed towards Cuba. AND, I also assume they were used for the "magnetic" field, as opposed to the electric field component of the radio signal(s).

                    The question for the group:

                    Can anyone educate me as to the advantage of looking at the magnetic component, as opposed to the typical antennae I am used to seeing in normal circumstances?

                    Many thanks,
                    John

                    --- In coldwarcomms@ yahoogroups. com, Jim Johnson <jasbo01@... > wrote:
                    >
                    > Tom,
                    >  
                    > I had the opportunity to spend a one year ADSW (Active Duty - Special Work) at Key West when it was still JIATF-East.  The antennas you refer to were, indeed, for the purposes of "looking in" on Cuba.  The FBIS had a facility on site which they used to monitor and record Cuban Radio & TV broadcasts, along with other "special interest" programming.  You'll note that the antenna arrangements consist of a number of paired antennas with a total of, if I remember correctly, six sets.  With each pair, one is angled downward while the other is angled upward.  This was to ensure a satisfactory "look angle" as the F layer changed from day to night.  You may draw your own conclusions as to any other signals that were being snatched given the larger CN (Counter Narcotics) mission being carried out by other folks.
                    >  
                    > Jim Johnson
                    > Grand Haven, MI
                    >
                    >>>> SNIP











                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Craig Scott
                    AND WGY in Schenectady NY...one of the first on the air...... their tower is right next to I-90 NYS Thruway..... ________________________________ From: Bill
                    Message 9 of 25 , Feb 3, 2010
                      AND WGY in Schenectady NY...one of the first on the air...... their tower is right next to I-90 NYS Thruway.....



                      ________________________________
                      From: Bill <groups@...>
                      To: coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Sat, January 30, 2010 7:42:24 PM
                      Subject: [coldwarcomms] High Power Radio

                      Let's not forget that WLW, 700 in Cincinatti, ran 500-kW for a time.
                      Crosley's experience in high-power radio led the .Gov to locate the VOA
                      Bethany Relay Station adjacent to the WLW site. Here's a great page on WLW:

                      http://hawkins.pair.com/wlw.shtml

                      And VOA Bethany

                      http://hawkins.pair.com/voaohio.html

                      And NSS:

                      http://hawkins.pair.com/nss.shtml


                      Bill
                      Kansas City


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