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Re: Terrorists hacking power systems [was RE: Genset from AT&T site

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  • Rob !
    Hello All: I need to weigh in here. Address a couple points, sorry this is not so much comms related. Somehow I missed the video, could someone point me to
    Message 1 of 19 , Mar 1, 2008
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      Hello All:
      I need to weigh in here. Address a couple points,
      sorry this is not so much
      comms related.
      Somehow I missed "the" video, could someone point me
      to it.
      -I am a Chief Powerplant Operator at a mainstem
      Columbia River dam, in the
      northwest.
      I have worked in hydro powerplants, and high voltage
      switchyards for 27
      years.
      All large generators are protected by vsarious
      protective relay schemes, and
      are well protected. They are protected for many
      conditions, such as loss of
      excitation, generator ground, generator differential,
      phase imbalance,
      negative sequence current, overvoltage, and the list
      goes on, in the old
      days, these relays were descrete relays for each
      function, but now, they are
      basically microprocessors, and one box has many
      functions, and the "relays"
      as we still call them, have sophisticated comms
      between them, and the
      control systems.
      It would be hard to damage a large generator from
      hacking into the network,
      but you could certainly casue problems if you go it,
      such as opening the
      spillway, or shutting down the generators.
      -Not all large bulk power generators are the same,
      steamers turn very fast
      (3600 RPM) and depending
      on head of water, and type of turbine, etc, hydro
      units turn slow (100-400
      RPM) so synchronizing these is very different.
      I have many seen "bad shots" taken on synchrnizing on
      different sizes of
      hydro units, with varying results.
      Anything from, the unit pulled into synchronism
      (slower unit) to the
      protective relays operating, and shutting the down the
      unit.
      I have never heard of a large generator "self
      destructing" although damage
      is possible, especially if the protective relays
      failed, or breaker failed. You have to remember, these
      large generators are
      made to feed huge electrical faults,
      and the breakers are made to interrupt such faults.
      For the record, for
      manual synchronism, we use a synchroscope,
      which looks at the phase angle between the power
      system "grid" and the
      generator to be synchronized, we can determine
      if the generator is too fast or slow, and when the
      moment of synchronism
      occurs, that is when you close the breaker.
      This happens in a nice controlled operation, no
      slamming, or banging, if it
      is accomplished correctly.
      There is a noise that occurs on a shot that is not
      right on, can it can be
      anything from a thump sound, to a heightened buzzing
      (transformer type hum)
      from the stator, I believe this is from the slight
      physical movement of the
      coils, it quiets down after the generator is warmed
      up.
      We also have an automatic synchronizer, it can produce
      various quality of
      synchronism.
      And, yes, even in a hydro plant, we have "pre heated"
      diesel generators
      sets, both for the spillway, and for the powerhouse.
      -In the Northwest, we have a lot of generation, and in
      the Southwest, they
      have a lot of load, the "normal" flow of power is from
      the
      North to South, along the west coast, if that tie
      separates, we in the
      Northwest are left with a large excess of generation,
      and, there is a remedial action scheme, which includes
      tripping large
      generators off line, and (I am not kidding) a very
      large load bank
      (read giant resistor here) that switches in for just
      long enough to help
      brake the system, and then switches out before it over
      heats, it is
      nicknamed the "toaster". So, yes, it exists.
      - As far as comms go, I do know our "computer
      engineers" both for the
      security system, and the plant control system, and
      power system control
      computers, can get in from home, over the public
      network, and that access is
      "deeper" that my access running the plant. Not sure of
      the security but,
      there is also a modem that can be called over a public
      phone line, so the
      manufacturer can get in if needed.
      I feel we are lacking on security, and it would be
      easy to get in if you
      wanted to.
      -Plant physical security is better than before 9-11,
      but it is still
      horrible, you can "tag in" or follow someone in
      through a security gate, and
      we have so
      many contractors working on site, that anyone could
      walk in or out, and no
      one would notice, how could we?
      -OK, this is way to long, sorry.



      ____________________________________________________________________________________
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      Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
    • Frank H
      ... Nope, it could have kept going as far as I m concerned. Thank you. Frank
      Message 2 of 19 , Mar 1, 2008
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        >Rob wrote:
        > -OK, this is way to long, sorry.

        Nope, it could have kept going as far as I'm concerned.

        Thank you.

        Frank
      • Mike Cowen
        I agree! Please continue. While this list is primarily comms related, we tend to be major infrastructure geeks here, and enjoy learning about other behind
        Message 3 of 19 , Mar 1, 2008
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          I agree! Please continue.

          While this list is primarily comms related, we tend to be major
          infrastructure geeks here, and enjoy learning about other 'behind the
          scenes" stuff. We're knowledge sponges. This particular subject
          directly affects all of us in one way or another, because without
          power, NONE of the other stuff would exist, therefore most of us are
          quite interested in expanding our knowledge. If there's any
          objection, we can take it off list (but the lurkers would miss
          out). Please, go on. Thank you for sharing!

          Here's the link to the video:
          <http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/09/26/power.at.risk/index.html>http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/09/26/power.at.risk/index.html

          Mike



          At 01:06 PM 3/1/2008, you wrote:

          > >Rob wrote:
          > > -OK, this is way to long, sorry.
          >
          >Nope, it could have kept going as far as I'm concerned.
          >
          >Thank you.
          >
          >Frank
          >
          >

          ---------------------------------------------------------------
          Mike Cowen Practice random acts of kindness
          and selfless acts of beauty.
          mcowen@... -Anonymous



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • paul rosa
          Is it me, or has coldwarcomms suddenly become the Edison Institute? Is the groups about Cold War communications or electric energy?
          Message 4 of 19 , Mar 1, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            Is it me, or has coldwarcomms suddenly become the Edison Institute? Is
            the groups about Cold War communications or electric energy?

            Rob ! wrote:
            >
            > Hello All:
            > I need to weigh in here. Address a couple points,
            > sorry this is not so much
            > comms related.
            > Somehow I missed "the" video, could someone point me
            > to it.
            > -I am a Chief Powerplant Operator at a mainstem
            > Columbia River dam, in the
            > northwest.
            > I have worked in hydro powerplants, and high voltage
            > switchyards for 27
            > years.
            > All large generators are protected by vsarious
            > protective relay schemes, and
            > are well protected. They are protected for many
            > conditions, such as loss of
            > excitation, generator ground, generator differential,
            > phase imbalance,
            > negative sequence current, overvoltage, and the list
            > goes on, in the old
            > days, these relays were descrete relays for each
            > function, but now, they are
            > basically microprocessors, and one box has many
            > functions, and the "relays"
            > as we still call them, have sophisticated comms
            > between them, and the
            > control systems.
            > It would be hard to damage a large generator from
            > hacking into the network,
            > but you could certainly casue problems if you go it,
            > such as opening the
            > spillway, or shutting down the generators.
            > -Not all large bulk power generators are the same,
            > steamers turn very fast
            > (3600 RPM) and depending
            > on head of water, and type of turbine, etc, hydro
            > units turn slow (100-400
            > RPM) so synchronizing these is very different.
            > I have many seen "bad shots" taken on synchrnizing on
            > different sizes of
            > hydro units, with varying results.
            > Anything from, the unit pulled into synchronism
            > (slower unit) to the
            > protective relays operating, and shutting the down the
            > unit.
            > I have never heard of a large generator "self
            > destructing" although damage
            > is possible, especially if the protective relays
            > failed, or breaker failed. You have to remember, these
            > large generators are
            > made to feed huge electrical faults,
            > and the breakers are made to interrupt such faults.
            > For the record, for
            > manual synchronism, we use a synchroscope,
            > which looks at the phase angle between the power
            > system "grid" and the
            > generator to be synchronized, we can determine
            > if the generator is too fast or slow, and when the
            > moment of synchronism
            > occurs, that is when you close the breaker.
            > This happens in a nice controlled operation, no
            > slamming, or banging, if it
            > is accomplished correctly.
            > There is a noise that occurs on a shot that is not
            > right on, can it can be
            > anything from a thump sound, to a heightened buzzing
            > (transformer type hum)
            > from the stator, I believe this is from the slight
            > physical movement of the
            > coils, it quiets down after the generator is warmed
            > up.
            > We also have an automatic synchronizer, it can produce
            > various quality of
            > synchronism.
            > And, yes, even in a hydro plant, we have "pre heated"
            > diesel generators
            > sets, both for the spillway, and for the powerhouse.
            > -In the Northwest, we have a lot of generation, and in
            > the Southwest, they
            > have a lot of load, the "normal" flow of power is from
            > the
            > North to South, along the west coast, if that tie
            > separates, we in the
            > Northwest are left with a large excess of generation,
            > and, there is a remedial action scheme, which includes
            > tripping large
            > generators off line, and (I am not kidding) a very
            > large load bank
            > (read giant resistor here) that switches in for just
            > long enough to help
            > brake the system, and then switches out before it over
            > heats, it is
            > nicknamed the "toaster". So, yes, it exists.
            > - As far as comms go, I do know our "computer
            > engineers" both for the
            > security system, and the plant control system, and
            > power system control
            > computers, can get in from home, over the public
            > network, and that access is
            > "deeper" that my access running the plant. Not sure of
            > the security but,
            > there is also a modem that can be called over a public
            > phone line, so the
            > manufacturer can get in if needed.
            > I feel we are lacking on security, and it would be
            > easy to get in if you
            > wanted to.
            > -Plant physical security is better than before 9-11,
            > but it is still
            > horrible, you can "tag in" or follow someone in
            > through a security gate, and
            > we have so
            > many contractors working on site, that anyone could
            > walk in or out, and no
            > one would notice, how could we?
            > -OK, this is way to long, sorry.
            >
            > __________________________________________________________
            > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
            > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
            > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
            > <http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping>
            >
            >
          • blitz
            Its all interesting, if theres any coldwarcoms material by all mens post it. Otherwise, I find it interesting.... ... [Non-text portions of this message have
            Message 5 of 19 , Mar 1, 2008
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              Its all interesting, if theres any coldwarcoms material by all mens post it.
              Otherwise, "I" find it interesting....

              paul rosa wrote:
              >
              > Is it me, or has coldwarcomms suddenly become the Edison Institute? Is
              > the groups about Cold War communications or electric energy?
              >
              > Rob ! wrote:
              > >
              > > Hello All:
              > > I need to weigh in here. Address a couple points,
              > > sorry this is not so much
              > > comms related.
              > > Somehow I missed "the" video, could someone point me
              > > to it.
              > > -I am a Chief Powerplant Operator at a mainstem
              > > Columbia River dam, in the
              > > northwest.
              > > I have worked in hydro powerplants, and high voltage
              > > switchyards for 27
              > > years.
              > > All large generators are protected by vsarious
              > > protective relay schemes, and
              > > are well protected. They are protected for many
              > > conditions, such as loss of
              > > excitation, generator ground, generator differential,
              > > phase imbalance,
              > > negative sequence current, overvoltage, and the list
              > > goes on, in the old
              > > days, these relays were descrete relays for each
              > > function, but now, they are
              > > basically microprocessors, and one box has many
              > > functions, and the "relays"
              > > as we still call them, have sophisticated comms
              > > between them, and the
              > > control systems.
              > > It would be hard to damage a large generator from
              > > hacking into the network,
              > > but you could certainly casue problems if you go it,
              > > such as opening the
              > > spillway, or shutting down the generators.
              > > -Not all large bulk power generators are the same,
              > > steamers turn very fast
              > > (3600 RPM) and depending
              > > on head of water, and type of turbine, etc, hydro
              > > units turn slow (100-400
              > > RPM) so synchronizing these is very different.
              > > I have many seen "bad shots" taken on synchrnizing on
              > > different sizes of
              > > hydro units, with varying results.
              > > Anything from, the unit pulled into synchronism
              > > (slower unit) to the
              > > protective relays operating, and shutting the down the
              > > unit.
              > > I have never heard of a large generator "self
              > > destructing" although damage
              > > is possible, especially if the protective relays
              > > failed, or breaker failed. You have to remember, these
              > > large generators are
              > > made to feed huge electrical faults,
              > > and the breakers are made to interrupt such faults.
              > > For the record, for
              > > manual synchronism, we use a synchroscope,
              > > which looks at the phase angle between the power
              > > system "grid" and the
              > > generator to be synchronized, we can determine
              > > if the generator is too fast or slow, and when the
              > > moment of synchronism
              > > occurs, that is when you close the breaker.
              > > This happens in a nice controlled operation, no
              > > slamming, or banging, if it
              > > is accomplished correctly.
              > > There is a noise that occurs on a shot that is not
              > > right on, can it can be
              > > anything from a thump sound, to a heightened buzzing
              > > (transformer type hum)
              > > from the stator, I believe this is from the slight
              > > physical movement of the
              > > coils, it quiets down after the generator is warmed
              > > up.
              > > We also have an automatic synchronizer, it can produce
              > > various quality of
              > > synchronism.
              > > And, yes, even in a hydro plant, we have "pre heated"
              > > diesel generators
              > > sets, both for the spillway, and for the powerhouse.
              > > -In the Northwest, we have a lot of generation, and in
              > > the Southwest, they
              > > have a lot of load, the "normal" flow of power is from
              > > the
              > > North to South, along the west coast, if that tie
              > > separates, we in the
              > > Northwest are left with a large excess of generation,
              > > and, there is a remedial action scheme, which includes
              > > tripping large
              > > generators off line, and (I am not kidding) a very
              > > large load bank
              > > (read giant resistor here) that switches in for just
              > > long enough to help
              > > brake the system, and then switches out before it over
              > > heats, it is
              > > nicknamed the "toaster". So, yes, it exists.
              > > - As far as comms go, I do know our "computer
              > > engineers" both for the
              > > security system, and the plant control system, and
              > > power system control
              > > computers, can get in from home, over the public
              > > network, and that access is
              > > "deeper" that my access running the plant. Not sure of
              > > the security but,
              > > there is also a modem that can be called over a public
              > > phone line, so the
              > > manufacturer can get in if needed.
              > > I feel we are lacking on security, and it would be
              > > easy to get in if you
              > > wanted to.
              > > -Plant physical security is better than before 9-11,
              > > but it is still
              > > horrible, you can "tag in" or follow someone in
              > > through a security gate, and
              > > we have so
              > > many contractors working on site, that anyone could
              > > walk in or out, and no
              > > one would notice, how could we?
              > > -OK, this is way to long, sorry.
              > >
              > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
              > > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
              > > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
              > > http://tools. search.yahoo. com/newsearch/ category. php?category=
              > shopping
              > <http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping>
              > > <http://tools. search.yahoo. com/newsearch/ category. php?category=
              > shopping
              > <http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping>>
              > >
              > >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Albert LaFrance
              Much like telecom, the electric power industry has a fascinating and colorful history. And also like telecom, much of your past is in danger of being lost.
              Message 6 of 19 , Mar 1, 2008
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                Much like telecom, the electric power industry has a fascinating and
                colorful history. And also like telecom, much of your past is in danger of
                being lost.



                Please take a peek in those long-forgotten nooks and crannies in your
                offices, plants, shops and homes, and gather up any interesting documents,
                photos, publications and artifacts. It would be ideal if you could find a
                museum or archive that wants them, but at least try to save them from the
                dumpster or the scrap dealer, where so much of our technological heritage
                seems to end up.



                Also, I'd like to invite all of you (and anyone else interested) to join the
                Vintage Insulators list. Despite the name, the group discusses a wide range
                of historical topics in generation, transmission and distribution, and we
                would be honored to have your expertise and experience on board. I'm hoping
                that Vintage Insulators will become a knowledge repository for the
                electrical industry, just as Cold War Comms has become for national-security
                infrastructure.



                The URL to join the group or view the archived messages is:

                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintage_insulators



                Finally, I have a small collection of random electrical documents and links
                at:

                http://long-lines.net/other/electrical/index.html .



                Albert LaFrance









                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Pj
                I thought that information was pretty cool. I think most of us like to know how things just work (or end up not working). Hey, without power, there would be no
                Message 7 of 19 , Mar 1, 2008
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                  I thought that information was pretty cool. I think most of us like to know how things just work (or end up not working).

                  Hey, without power, there would be no telcom :)

                  ----- Original Message ----
                  From: paul rosa <paul.rosa@...>
                  To: coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Saturday, March 1, 2008 5:49:15 PM
                  Subject: Re: [coldwarcomms] Re: Terrorists hacking power systems [was RE: Genset from AT&T site

                  Is it me, or has coldwarcomms suddenly become the Edison Institute? Is
                  the groups about Cold War communications or electric energy?


                  ____________________________________________________________________________________
                  Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                  Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
                • Bruce Fletcher
                  ... post it. ... I too find it interesting, if there were no electricity supply there would be no communications -- Bruce Fletcher Stronsay, Orkney
                  Message 8 of 19 , Mar 2, 2008
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                    --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, blitz <blitz@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Its all interesting, if theres any coldwarcoms material by all mens
                    post it.
                    > Otherwise, "I" find it interesting....
                    >
                    > paul rosa wrote:
                    >>
                    >> Is it me, or has coldwarcomms suddenly become the Edison Institute?
                    >> Is the groups about Cold War communications or electric energy?

                    I too find it interesting, if there were no electricity supply there
                    would be no communications
                    --
                    Bruce Fletcher
                    Stronsay, Orkney
                    <www.stronsay.co.uk/claremont>
                  • mstangelo@comcast.net
                    This is interesting but what does this have to do with the Cold War Communications? The Cold War was a battle between democratic and communist super-powers
                    Message 9 of 19 , Mar 2, 2008
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                      This is interesting but what does this have to do with the Cold War Communications? The Cold War was a battle between democratic and communist super-powers where the enemy was well defined.

                      This terrorist threat discussion is a part of the post-Cold Was "Asymmetrical" warfare where extermist groups use common goods and services to attack the infrastructure.

                      Mike


                      -------------- Original message --------------
                      From: "Bruce Fletcher" <ricardian@...>

                      > --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, blitz wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Its all interesting, if theres any coldwarcoms material by all mens
                      > post it.
                      > > Otherwise, "I" find it interesting....
                      > >
                      > > paul rosa wrote:
                      > >>
                      > >> Is it me, or has coldwarcomms suddenly become the Edison Institute?
                      > >> Is the groups about Cold War communications or electric energy?
                      >
                      > I too find it interesting, if there were no electricity supply there
                      > would be no communications
                      > --
                      > Bruce Fletcher
                      > Stronsay, Orkney
                      >

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • John Young
                      Sabotage of infrastructure is a continuing concern, as in the Cold War so now. While separate mail lists for each type of infrastructure provides opportunities
                      Message 10 of 19 , Mar 2, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Sabotage of infrastructure is a continuing concern, as in the Cold War so now.

                        While separate mail lists for each type of infrastructure provides
                        opportunities
                        for detailed discussion, there are benefits when the interdependency of
                        infrastructures comes up, probably not as often as some might prefer.

                        Compartmentalization of technology (and related engineering) sometimes
                        introduces vulnerabilities not always understood. These weaknesses are
                        not only a matter of national security but also successful operability of
                        increasingly complex systems. Failures often occur at interfaces.

                        While a national enemy might look for those points of weakness, it is more
                        likely that operators want to know about them -- to want to know what they
                        don't know.

                        Sure, it is safe to stay within the comfortable limits of what one knows,
                        and if lucky this might be enough. Too often it is the cause of disaster,
                        in peace as in war.

                        Troubleshooters, sorry for pun, go looking for what nobody else wants
                        to. And what they find can lead to greater safety and security.

                        Once scientists and engineers were known for curiosity about everything,
                        then came specialization. Once argument was a sign of healthy skepticism
                        and innovation, now a job, a contract, a war, can be lost for doing just
                        that.

                        My mind is closed, and happy now, but can't sleep for dreaming about
                        what can go wrong, still afraid of ignorance.
                      • james kester
                        May I add something which may complicate this discussion? I would be interested if it has relevance. There is a significant difference between two segments of
                        Message 11 of 19 , Mar 4, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          May I add something which may complicate this discussion?
                          I would be interested if it has relevance. There is a significant difference
                          between two segments of the energy industry?
                          Generation and Transmission of the product, and the resources required to
                          generate the product.

                          A very complex difference if I might offer to say so.

                          The hypothetical grid as I like to refer to it, has been discussed in detail
                          before. Some time ago I offered my 1st grade ideas to a collection of
                          very "smart" folks in the area of disaster restoration.

                          As was identified by a number of posts, all points are correct (I think).
                          However, I am currently unaware of an commercial energy transmission medium in use which is not dependent on another infrastructure for it's distribution?
                          (except wireless technology)

                          What I have interests in regarding the electrical field, are potential existence
                          of energy redundancy systems utilizing a transmission medium without infrastructure.

                          Perhaps that's what the accelerator is for? Is there something out there?

                          Actually, I was under the impression (incorrectly, I guess) that the scada systems I've worked on many times in three and a half decades were responsible for transmission management, and other residual intentions.
                          I know that electrical transmission is subject to the laws of physics, but
                          I always thought it was controlled by the producers?
                          (or the environmentalists)


                          Rob ! <hydro_heaven@...> wrote: Hello All:
                          I need to weigh in here. Address a couple points,
                          sorry this is not so much
                          comms related.
                          Somehow I missed "the" video, could someone point me
                          to it.
                          -I am a Chief Powerplant Operator at a mainstem
                          Columbia River dam, in the
                          northwest.
                          I have worked in hydro powerplants, and high voltage
                          switchyards for 27
                          years.
                          All large generators are protected by vsarious
                          protective relay schemes, and
                          are well protected. They are protected for many
                          conditions, such as loss of
                          excitation, generator ground, generator differential,
                          phase imbalance,
                          negative sequence current, overvoltage, and the list
                          goes on, in the old
                          days, these relays were descrete relays for each
                          function, but now, they are
                          basically microprocessors, and one box has many
                          functions, and the "relays"
                          as we still call them, have sophisticated comms
                          between them, and the
                          control systems.
                          It would be hard to damage a large generator from
                          hacking into the network,
                          but you could certainly casue problems if you go it,
                          such as opening the
                          spillway, or shutting down the generators.
                          -Not all large bulk power generators are the same,
                          steamers turn very fast
                          (3600 RPM) and depending
                          on head of water, and type of turbine, etc, hydro
                          units turn slow (100-400
                          RPM) so synchronizing these is very different.
                          I have many seen "bad shots" taken on synchrnizing on
                          different sizes of
                          hydro units, with varying results.
                          Anything from, the unit pulled into synchronism
                          (slower unit) to the
                          protective relays operating, and shutting the down the
                          unit.
                          I have never heard of a large generator "self
                          destructing" although damage
                          is possible, especially if the protective relays
                          failed, or breaker failed. You have to remember, these
                          large generators are
                          made to feed huge electrical faults,
                          and the breakers are made to interrupt such faults.
                          For the record, for
                          manual synchronism, we use a synchroscope,
                          which looks at the phase angle between the power
                          system "grid" and the
                          generator to be synchronized, we can determine
                          if the generator is too fast or slow, and when the
                          moment of synchronism
                          occurs, that is when you close the breaker.
                          This happens in a nice controlled operation, no
                          slamming, or banging, if it
                          is accomplished correctly.
                          There is a noise that occurs on a shot that is not
                          right on, can it can be
                          anything from a thump sound, to a heightened buzzing
                          (transformer type hum)
                          from the stator, I believe this is from the slight
                          physical movement of the
                          coils, it quiets down after the generator is warmed
                          up.
                          We also have an automatic synchronizer, it can produce
                          various quality of
                          synchronism.
                          And, yes, even in a hydro plant, we have "pre heated"
                          diesel generators
                          sets, both for the spillway, and for the powerhouse.
                          -In the Northwest, we have a lot of generation, and in
                          the Southwest, they
                          have a lot of load, the "normal" flow of power is from
                          the
                          North to South, along the west coast, if that tie
                          separates, we in the
                          Northwest are left with a large excess of generation,
                          and, there is a remedial action scheme, which includes
                          tripping large
                          generators off line, and (I am not kidding) a very
                          large load bank
                          (read giant resistor here) that switches in for just
                          long enough to help
                          brake the system, and then switches out before it over
                          heats, it is
                          nicknamed the "toaster". So, yes, it exists.
                          - As far as comms go, I do know our "computer
                          engineers" both for the
                          security system, and the plant control system, and
                          power system control
                          computers, can get in from home, over the public
                          network, and that access is
                          "deeper" that my access running the plant. Not sure of
                          the security but,
                          there is also a modem that can be called over a public
                          phone line, so the
                          manufacturer can get in if needed.
                          I feel we are lacking on security, and it would be
                          easy to get in if you
                          wanted to.
                          -Plant physical security is better than before 9-11,
                          but it is still
                          horrible, you can "tag in" or follow someone in
                          through a security gate, and
                          we have so
                          many contractors working on site, that anyone could
                          walk in or out, and no
                          one would notice, how could we?
                          -OK, this is way to long, sorry.

                          __________________________________________________________
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                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Albert LaFrance
                          Actually, you ve raised an interesting question: did asymmetric warfare operations play a role in the Cold War? Although both sides maintained large
                          Message 12 of 19 , Mar 4, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Actually, you've raised an interesting question: did asymmetric warfare
                            operations play a role in the Cold War? Although both sides maintained
                            large conventional military forces and massive arsenals, that doesn't
                            preclude their use of the same techniques seen in asymmetric conflicts.



                            One incident which comes to mind is the alleged sabotage of a Soviet
                            natural-gas pipeline control system by the US (presumably CIA), reportedly
                            resulting in an explosion and huge fire. And there are allegations by a
                            former high-ranking Soviet officer of "sleeper" agents deployed in the US,
                            with access to hidden caches of weapons - including tactical nukes.



                            Albert



                            _____

                            From: coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com [mailto:coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com] On
                            Behalf Of mstangelo@...
                            Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2008 5:48 PM
                            To: coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com; coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com
                            Cc: Bruce Fletcher
                            Subject: Re: [coldwarcomms] Re: Terrorists hacking power systems [was RE:
                            Genset from AT&T site



                            This is interesting but what does this have to do with the Cold War
                            Communications? The Cold War was a battle between democratic and communist
                            super-powers where the enemy was well defined.

                            This terrorist threat discussion is a part of the post-Cold Was
                            "Asymmetrical" warfare where extermist groups use common goods and services
                            to attack the infrastructure.

                            Mike






                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Albert LaFrance
                            Actually, you ve raised an interesting question: did asymmetric warfare operations play a role in the Cold War? Although both sides maintained large
                            Message 13 of 19 , Mar 4, 2008
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Actually, you've raised an interesting question: did asymmetric warfare
                              operations play a role in the Cold War? Although both sides maintained
                              large conventional military forces and massive arsenals, that doesn't
                              preclude their use of the same techniques seen in asymmetric conflicts.



                              One incident which comes to mind is the alleged sabotage of a Soviet
                              natural-gas pipeline control system by the US (presumably CIA), reportedly
                              resulting in an explosion and huge fire. And there are allegations by a
                              former high-ranking Soviet officer of "sleeper" agents deployed in the US,
                              with access to hidden caches of weapons - including tactical nukes.



                              Albert



                              _____

                              From: coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com [mailto:coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com] On
                              Behalf Of mstangelo@...
                              Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2008 5:48 PM
                              To: coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com; coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com
                              Cc: Bruce Fletcher
                              Subject: Re: [coldwarcomms] Re: Terrorists hacking power systems [was RE:
                              Genset from AT&T site



                              This is interesting but what does this have to do with the Cold War
                              Communications? The Cold War was a battle between democratic and communist
                              super-powers where the enemy was well defined.

                              This terrorist threat discussion is a part of the post-Cold Was
                              "Asymmetrical" warfare where extermist groups use common goods and services
                              to attack the infrastructure.

                              Mike





                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Jim Browne
                              I seem to recall a story of Soviet attempts to stash explosives just across our border with Canada for use against our power and comms. networks. Does anyone
                              Message 14 of 19 , Mar 4, 2008
                              • 0 Attachment
                                I seem to recall a story of Soviet attempts to stash explosives just across
                                our border with Canada for use against our power and comms. networks. Does
                                anyone have any more detailed information on this?

                                On Tue, Mar 4, 2008 at 9:55 AM, Albert LaFrance <
                                albert.lafrance@...> wrote:

                                > Actually, you've raised an interesting question: did asymmetric warfare
                                > operations play a role in the Cold War? Although both sides maintained
                                > large conventional military forces and massive arsenals, that doesn't
                                > preclude their use of the same techniques seen in asymmetric conflicts.
                                >
                                > One incident which comes to mind is the alleged sabotage of a Soviet
                                > natural-gas pipeline control system by the US (presumably CIA), reportedly
                                > resulting in an explosion and huge fire. And there are allegations by a
                                > former high-ranking Soviet officer of "sleeper" agents deployed in the US,
                                > with access to hidden caches of weapons - including tactical nukes.
                                >
                                > Albert
                                >
                                > _____
                                >
                                > From: coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com <coldwarcomms%40yahoogroups.com>[mailto:
                                > coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com <coldwarcomms%40yahoogroups.com>] On
                                > Behalf Of mstangelo@... <mstangelo%40comcast.net>
                                > Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2008 5:48 PM
                                > To: coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com <coldwarcomms%40yahoogroups.com>;
                                > coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com <coldwarcomms%40yahoogroups.com>
                                > Cc: Bruce Fletcher
                                > Subject: Re: [coldwarcomms] Re: Terrorists hacking power systems [was RE:
                                > Genset from AT&T site
                                >
                                > This is interesting but what does this have to do with the Cold War
                                > Communications? The Cold War was a battle between democratic and communist
                                > super-powers where the enemy was well defined.
                                >
                                > This terrorist threat discussion is a part of the post-Cold Was
                                > "Asymmetrical" warfare where extermist groups use common goods and
                                > services
                                > to attack the infrastructure.
                                >
                                > Mike
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >
                                >



                                --
                                Jim Browne


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Albert LaFrance
                                This article discusses the possible role of Chinese hackers in the August 2003 northeast and February 2008 south Florida power blackouts:
                                Message 15 of 19 , May 29, 2008
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  This article discusses the possible role of Chinese hackers in the August
                                  2003 northeast and February 2008 south Florida power blackouts:

                                  http://www.govexec.com/dailyfed/0508/053008nj1.htm



                                  Albert



                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Sheldon Daitch
                                  In the article, I read with interest: There has never been an official U.S. government assertion of Chinese involvement in the outage, but intelligence and
                                  Message 16 of 19 , May 31, 2008
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    In the article, I read with interest:

                                    "There has never been an official U.S. government assertion of Chinese involvement in the outage, but intelligence and other government officials contacted for this story did not explicitly rule out a Chinese role. One security analyst in the private sector with close ties to the intelligence community said that some senior intelligence officials believe that China played a role in the 2003 blackout that is still not fully understood."

                                    In other words, we don't know, but it could be a guess.

                                    What I find more interesting is the apparent reliance to the open internet for the control of infrastructure systems. Password protected or not, if the systems are that important to company, to society, to the well-being of the nation, I don't understand why any control system should have any access from outside the organization. I have no problems with isolated monitoring systems, systems that have absolutely no reverse path communications, being on the open internet, but there is no excuse for the ability to shut down systems from the outside, at least IMHO.

                                    73
                                    Sheldon

                                    Albert LaFrance <albert.lafrance@...> wrote:
                                    This article discusses the possible role of Chinese hackers in the August
                                    2003 northeast and February 2008 south Florida power blackouts:

                                    http://www.govexec.com/dailyfed/0508/053008nj1.htm

                                    Albert

                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • John Young
                                    Infrastructure systems are will remain vulnerable to the Internet until the old and young farts who operate them remain clueless about telecommunications. Many
                                    Message 17 of 19 , May 31, 2008
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Infrastructure systems are will remain vulnerable to the Internet until
                                      the old and young farts who operate them remain clueless about
                                      telecommunications. Many of the systems, perhaps all of them except
                                      telecomm, are operated by engineering disciplines that do not know
                                      much about digital communications. And even few of these disciplines
                                      know squat about comsec, well, a few understand passwords but that
                                      is about it. And the passwords are nearly always stupid grade because
                                      of limited memory capacity of the best of engineers for information their
                                      own field.

                                      I have worked with dozens of senior engineers (outside telecomm) who
                                      cannot use email, or misuse it, or refuse to use it to hide their ignorance.
                                      They cannot use the Internet, they do not know how to secure a local or
                                      wide are network, they do not imagine that all their highly secure in-house
                                      data is digitally leakable, losable and stealable.

                                      Sensitive paper documents locked in safes when not in use are readily
                                      available on the computers that produced them, these computers are used
                                      to email and access the Internet without information security controls other
                                      than an firewall against incoming virii. File transfer sites are lightly
                                      protected by passwords handed out like free cigarettes by administrative
                                      assistants who have not been instructed to protect the information. No
                                      checking of who gets files inhouse and on exterior sites is done.

                                      The reason for all this is that comsec costs money, requires engineers
                                      and managers to obey rules they do not make and diminishes their

                                      importance. Hey, they say, we are here to run a power systems, say,
                                      not spend time listening to geeks half our age spourting stuff never
                                      taught in college in our days and never comes up at our conferences
                                      on civil, structural, mechanical, electrical, sanitation, sewage, you
                                      name it.

                                      There are no licensed comsec engineers, that does not yet exist. And
                                      the best work in secrecy and will, cannot, tell other engineers what is
                                      wrong with infrastructure comsec. Instead, snake oil peddlers and
                                      screamers about attacks work their trades.

                                      When comsec becomes as deeply embedded in infrastructure design,
                                      operation and maintenance as say, the laws of themodynamics, the
                                      systems will remain vulnerable. Even then the laws of unpredictabble
                                      consequences of complex systems, and perennial stupidity, vanity
                                      and sloth (called value engineering) will cause major comsec
                                      tremblors.

                                      Breaking up Ma Bell was stupid, but not as stupid as letting venal
                                      SBC take over the remnants and trusted brand name to peddle the
                                      most unreliable telecomm ever. Well, in the UK it is BT, and other
                                      countries similarly run by people whose specialty is false
                                      advertising.

                                      Check it out. Next time you meet a senior official at an infrastructure
                                      operator, designer or funding agency, ask them about top to bottom
                                      comsec.

                                      Bear in mind, whether lost or stolen or copied laptops, to threats
                                      againt government and infrastructure, these are false advertising.
                                      Laptops are used as bait by comsec warriors, as are open points
                                      of access to control systems.
                                    • David Lesher
                                      ... The people I asked think Kevin is far more credible on this. They ve read the whole report
                                      Message 18 of 19 , May 31, 2008
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Speaking on Deep Background, the Press Secretary whispered:
                                        >
                                        > This article discusses the possible role of Chinese hackers in the August
                                        > 2003 northeast and February 2008 south Florida power blackouts:


                                        The people I asked think Kevin
                                        <http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2008/05/did-hackers-cau.htmla>
                                        is far more credible on this. They've read the whole report
                                        <http://www.nerc.com/~filez/blackout.html> and in one case,
                                        been briefed on the topic.

                                        Power systems are notoriously fickle; and when heavily
                                        loaded, exponentially so. When the fit hits the shan,
                                        it's like dominos...


                                        --
                                        A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@...
                                        & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
                                        Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
                                        is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
                                      • blitz
                                        How many critical systems use two-tone or DTMF switching in this day and age? FAR too many in my experience. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been
                                        Message 19 of 19 , May 31, 2008
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          How many critical systems use two-tone or DTMF switching in this day and
                                          age?
                                          FAR too many in my experience.

                                          John Young wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Infrastructure systems are will remain vulnerable to the Internet until
                                          > the old and young farts who operate them remain clueless about
                                          > telecommunications. Many of the systems, perhaps all of them except
                                          > telecomm, are operated by engineering disciplines that do not know
                                          > much about digital communications. And even few of these disciplines
                                          > know squat about comsec, well, a few understand passwords but that
                                          > is about it. And the passwords are nearly always stupid grade because
                                          > of limited memory capacity of the best of engineers for information their
                                          > own field.
                                          >
                                          > I have worked with dozens of senior engineers (outside telecomm) who
                                          > cannot use email, or misuse it, or refuse to use it to hide their
                                          > ignorance.
                                          > They cannot use the Internet, they do not know how to secure a local or
                                          > wide are network, they do not imagine that all their highly secure
                                          > in-house
                                          > data is digitally leakable, losable and stealable.
                                          >
                                          > Sensitive paper documents locked in safes when not in use are readily
                                          > available on the computers that produced them, these computers are used
                                          > to email and access the Internet without information security controls
                                          > other
                                          > than an firewall against incoming virii. File transfer sites are lightly
                                          > protected by passwords handed out like free cigarettes by administrative
                                          > assistants who have not been instructed to protect the information. No
                                          > checking of who gets files inhouse and on exterior sites is done.
                                          >
                                          > The reason for all this is that comsec costs money, requires engineers
                                          > and managers to obey rules they do not make and diminishes their
                                          >
                                          > importance. Hey, they say, we are here to run a power systems, say,
                                          > not spend time listening to geeks half our age spourting stuff never
                                          > taught in college in our days and never comes up at our conferences
                                          > on civil, structural, mechanical, electrical, sanitation, sewage, you
                                          > name it.
                                          >
                                          > There are no licensed comsec engineers, that does not yet exist. And
                                          > the best work in secrecy and will, cannot, tell other engineers what is
                                          > wrong with infrastructure comsec. Instead, snake oil peddlers and
                                          > screamers about attacks work their trades.
                                          >
                                          > When comsec becomes as deeply embedded in infrastructure design,
                                          > operation and maintenance as say, the laws of themodynamics, the
                                          > systems will remain vulnerable. Even then the laws of unpredictabble
                                          > consequences of complex systems, and perennial stupidity, vanity
                                          > and sloth (called value engineering) will cause major comsec
                                          > tremblors.
                                          >
                                          > Breaking up Ma Bell was stupid, but not as stupid as letting venal
                                          > SBC take over the remnants and trusted brand name to peddle the
                                          > most unreliable telecomm ever. Well, in the UK it is BT, and other
                                          > countries similarly run by people whose specialty is false
                                          > advertising.
                                          >
                                          > Check it out. Next time you meet a senior official at an infrastructure
                                          > operator, designer or funding agency, ask them about top to bottom
                                          > comsec.
                                          >
                                          > Bear in mind, whether lost or stolen or copied laptops, to threats
                                          > againt government and infrastructure, these are false advertising.
                                          > Laptops are used as bait by comsec warriors, as are open points
                                          > of access to control systems.
                                          >
                                          >


                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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