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Re: [coldwarcomms] bunker rumor

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  • rgates8254@aol.com
    Hi Tim, The story about Zbig is not a rumor but true...that was a darling of a screw up. The bottom line is if a real attack comes, there seems to be some
    Message 1 of 32 , May 31, 2007
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      Hi Tim,
      The story about Zbig is not a rumor but true...that was a darling of a
      screw up.
      The bottom line is if a real attack comes, there seems to be some hesitancy
      (because the thought is so fantastic and not something thought about on a
      daily
      basis) that people don't want to MOVE... including VIPs. Look at 911. When
      Bush was reading to the kids, and an aide tells him that the country is
      being attacked
      he kept reading till he was told a second time. All sorts of theories about
      that one,
      but I suspect that he was not expecting that and it took him time to absorb
      that.
      Then they fly to the bunker at Barksdale, then off to the old SAC bunker at
      Offutt.
      The news footage of that was rich. Here is the parade of VIPs and press
      racing down
      a road, the motorcade stops and what appears to be a public park and the
      press film
      people going into what looks like a very small outhouse looking/storage type
      building,
      but its really one of the entrances to the bunker. Security...Burp!!
      Interestingly if the country had been under serious nuclear attack, Offutt
      and Barksdale
      would probably be the last place I would fly POTUS to because they would
      be targets themselves.

      Some of the Reagan era COG stuff came from people I know when I was working
      on a cold war history project and they also confirmed details from the CNN
      special.
      Publicly there was a CNN special called Doomsday government or something
      like
      that circu 1989-1992 which hit on COG, some of the issues they faced, not
      to
      mention how black dollars were being used on the government credit cards for
      s
      trippers and everything else. The communications screw up and phone booth
      stuff
      was also mentioned on TV. As I recall that TV special mentioned how COG was
      using some of the old SAGE buildings (at least the underground parts) for
      various
      and many COG related items.

      The identical twin of AF 1 at a field in Virginia was actually covered in a
      news story, quite
      awhile ago. It has its own hanger, that is guarded on an otherwise public
      airport.
      As I recall the article appeared in the Virginia Pilot. I will try and run
      down a copy
      and get the info out. There is several stories from AF people that there is
      actually
      a third plane identical to the first two.

      I goofed on the tail numbers, one is 28000 and the other is 29000, but they
      are identical in every other respect. People on the inside refered to as a
      Decoy,
      but tell me it is/can be used on some missions.

      During the Eisenhower years, as I recollect from seeing the documents,
      people lower
      on the command structure had authority to release nukes. This was
      gradually changed,
      modified etc etc into what I described during the Reagan years where higher
      ranking people
      were the ones with authority, rather then at the lessor levels.

      Having AF 1 land and plug into the hard wire network was something that was
      considered
      rather remarkable during Reagn , but now is not. As a rule, so people in
      the AF tell me,
      AF 1 can plug into anything on the ground.


      The interesting thing about the so called mobile command posts is how they
      would be deployed out to
      particular camp grounds in the Shenadoah Valley during times of crises.
      This morsel of info popped out
      just after 911 in an article indicating that known spy Hanssen coughed up a
      load of this sort of information to the Russians during his spy days.


      You are probably familiar with HMX 1? mission of going into DC after the
      bomb went off and searching
      for VIP survivors blah blah blah. I recall an article mentioning that a
      number of years ago.



      Bottom line, as Zbig found out, if the alert button was pushed out of the
      blue, it would be a total screw
      up getting off the ground, much less getting VIPs out of town before
      something nasty happened.


      Cheers,

      Robert Gates
      (Not the SecDef)




      In a message dated 5/31/2007 9:23:39 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
      hooligan@... writes:

      In a message dated 5/30/2007 10:41:38 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
      rgates8254@... writes:

      I recall under Carter a number of COG type exercises were done and the
      bottom line, on a normal day, it was virtually impossible to get leadership
      out of
      town in the less then a 15-30 minute planning window.
      *******
      I might be making one story into two here, but there's the legend that
      Carter/Zbig Brzezinsky decided to test part of the emergency evac system &
      an
      alert helo was scrambled to the White House, but the event wasn't
      coordinated
      with the Secret Service, so the helo was almost shot down by the SS.

      The other story, which was told to me by someone in a position to know
      about such things, is that the E-4 aircraft on alert at Andrews AFB
      performing
      the Nightwatch 01 mission was alerted via an appropriate means (though
      perhaps
      not the primary circuit) to get ready for an Emergency War Order take-off
      with a National Command Authority or other Senior Leadership person who
      would
      be arriving soon by helo. The hazy details that I remember being told are
      that the person aboard the NEACP that took the call for whatever invalid
      reason, didn't believe it, and didn't follow through with the checklist
      after the
      contact. He ended up losing his job.
      *******



      Then Reagan admin who came up with COG and besides an assortment of all of
      the above, they were attempting to grapple (unsucessful according to folks
      I
      talked to) with how to sell the surviving American public that some
      unelected person such as Jeanne Kirkpatrick was now the President of the
      US,
      blah
      blah blah.
      *******
      I don't believe the USA spent much time on a public-relations sale of a
      post-nuclear war POTUS successor.
      *******

      They also did a number of classified exercises and the biggest screw
      up with COG (and still is) was the communications never worked quite right,
      or as expected and their was deficencies and various problems. My favorite
      public story during that time was when they were running a COG fire drill,
      and the communications were all screwed up. To make the exercise work on
      paper, officials were shuttling back and forth between public pay
      phones...it was
      rich.
      ***********
      Besides your post, where else is that story public?

      Initiating a nuclear war is pretty easy -- NCA uses MEECN. However,
      managing forces & the nation during and after a nuclear war isn't, and if,
      as your
      story goes, the communications never quite worked right & there were
      deficiencies & various problems, it sounds like the purpose of the exercise
      was a
      success. I realize many billions of dollars have been spent on 'robust'
      C3,I
      systems & facilities, but nuclear wars are pretty bad things. The world
      also
      spends billions of dollars & many decades trying to cure cancer too,
      without
      a complete success, but I don't imagine people will say that effort is
      wasteful.
      ***********


      The Reagan admin figured out that most everybody knew where all the
      so called super secret bunkers were and switched to a mobile mode model.
      Some
      of the large white FEMA semi's that are now used in various disasters for
      communications and everything else were developed then at a classified
      level
      as a way to deploy leadership away from areas that would get hit.

      ***********
      Well yes & no. Technological advancements are what made ground-mobile
      command centers more feasible for the USA. Soviet technological advances
      ('spy
      satellites,' warhead accuracy, 'head-hunter' sleeper agents & special
      atomic
      demolition munitions) & spies/traitors enhanced the threat that a
      expensive,
      fixed-location 'black' bunker couldn't be trusted to be a secure C3,I
      and/or
      relocation facility for a key person. And I'll dare say that we have had
      some
      complete MORONS involved in the OPSEC planning for 'black' systems &
      facilities.
      ***********


      During this time other facilities were put together, but totally off the
      radar scope and in areas of the country that you would not expect any such
      a
      thing to be. If AF-1 could land at particular airfields, they could get the

      President (assuming he survived) to some of these facilities, after all, it
      was
      assumed enemies would be hunting for AF-1 and the other C3 type planes.
      *****************
      The 'night vision device testing & evaluation facility' near Bend, Oregon
      is an excellent & rare example of a Reagan-era 'black' C3,I facility that
      was
      shut down & is public knowledge.

      I'll let the guy who was an Ops Team member aboard Nightwatch address the
      issue of expected survivability at the onset of a major nuclear
      conflagration, but the number was in minutes, not the 72 hours the aircraft
      was
      technically able to stay airborne for with aerial refueling.
      *****************


      Another aspect of the COG program under Reagan was having an identical twin
      of AF
      1, including ID numbers which is parked at a field within a certain
      distance
      of DC.
      *********
      I'm calling you on this one, even if you were a Reagan-era DCI & are the
      current Secretary of Defense, Mr. Gates.. I think you're very wrong.
      *********

      Speaking of AF 1 there was other interesting items during the
      Reagan admin. The phone companies were just starting running fibre optic
      long
      lines and they ran fibre out to certain airports as part of COG, with the
      theory that AF 1 could land, and "plug in" to the national network blah
      blah.

      ********
      None of the 89th Airlift Wing Special Air Missions fleet during the
      Reagan-era were designed to provide a major COG-role for the president other
      than to
      get him the hell out of the DC area or whatever other area he was known to
      be
      in. If he needed to be evac'ed by fixed-wing aircraft, speed & 'stealth'
      were more attractive than a large payload with lots of comms gear. This
      isn't
      to imply that other SAMs at Andrews wouldn't take off & fly various routes
      for dispersal & to play a 'shell-game' with the Soviets. Ground support
      people other than Andrews & Offutt AFBs & probably the Oklahoma City Air
      Logistics Center ALWAYS had a hard time figuring out how to plug in the
      telephone
      lines to the aircraft! There is some minor open-source info out on the web
      about
      'Rebound Echo' plans.
      ********



      During that time the the Presidential authority to release nuclear weapons
      was changed somewhat. Instead of going down the President succession order,

      as specified by the Constitution, the authority to release nuclear weapons
      went President, VP, SecDef, Joint Chiefs, then further down into the
      military
      command structure.
      **********
      Different successor paths between POTUS & NCA pre-date the Reagan era.
      **********




      The point is that if a crises ever happened, all the nuclear/COG fire
      drills aside, all the prounouncements by people aside, we would find that
      there
      would be many issues and problems. Knowing some of the issues involved,
      personally I hope COG/Enduring Constitutional government/whatever NEVER,
      EVER has
      to be implemented.

      **********

      I expect we can all agree on that!



      Tim







      ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com


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    • John Flood
      Many people confuse the E-4B as being AF1 - and around the time they were filming the movie Air Force One the 747 used in the film, marked with identical
      Message 32 of 32 , Jun 15, 2007
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        Many people confuse the E-4B as being AF1 - and around the time they were
        filming the movie "Air Force One" the 747 used in the film, marked with
        identical livery to the real plane was seen at several airports around the
        country prompted claims of a "third" AF1 aircraft. As a vet of flying on the
        E-4B more times than I remember, people claimed we were "AF1" - if it got us
        a better room or better chow of course we would agree. LOL//j o h n


        -----Original Message-----
        From: coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com [mailto:coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com]On
        Behalf Of hooligan@...
        Sent: 15 June 2007 08:02
        To: coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [coldwarcomms] bunker rumor


        AOL sucks in terms of interjecting responses inside postings, so I'll do the
        best I can with this.



        In a message dated 5/31/2007 10:22:39 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
        rgates8254@... <mailto:rgates8254%40aol.com> writes:

        Hi Tim,
        The story about Zbig is not a rumor but true...that was a darling of a
        screw up.
        The bottom line is if a real attack comes, there seems to be some hesitancy
        (because the thought is so fantastic and not something thought about on a
        daily
        basis) that people don't want to MOVE... including VIPs.

        **************

        Which is why we did & do have personnel who under the right conditions have
        NCA powers, already at 'black' bunkers & mobile platforms. The major
        strategic threats know this.
        ***************


        Look at 911. When
        Bush was reading to the kids, and an aide tells him that the country is
        being attacked
        he kept reading till he was told a second time. All sorts of theories about
        that one,
        but I suspect that he was not expecting that and it took him time to absorb
        that.

        ***********
        I suspect your suspicions are quite wrong. First notification seemed to be
        that a commercial plane struck a WTC tower. He took rapid action ("We're at
        war") after being informed a few min later that a second plane struck the
        other WTC tower -- clearly not needing time to "absorb" the implausibility
        of a
        coincidence or accident.
        ***********


        Then they fly to the bunker at Barksdale, then off to the old SAC bunker at
        Offutt.
        The news footage of that was rich. Here is the parade of VIPs and press
        racing down
        a road, the motorcade stops and what appears to be a public park and the
        press film
        people going into what looks like a very small outhouse looking/storage type
        building,
        but its really one of the entrances to the bunker. Security...Burp!b


        ************
        *Your* take on it, or mine, don't necessarily equate to a security faux
        pass, no matter what sort of picture you try to belch out. If you thought
        the
        grassy area & missile displays in front of the USSTRATCOM HQ looked like a
        public park, and the STRATCOM Underground's alternate ingress/egress looked
        like
        an outhouse, so be it, but I'm not sure what damage
        was done. I haven't seen that video for years, and I'm not going to assume
        you're correct about the media pool going in, but if they did, it's not like
        they had the run of the place, and I suppose I'd be happy if some did get to
        go inside & document some of the event.
        *************

        Interestingly if the country had been under serious nuclear attack, Offutt
        and Barksdale
        would probably be the last place I would fly POTUS to because they would
        be targets themselves.




        **********
        Well, they decided pretty quickly --correctly-- that it was neither a
        serious nuclear attack, nor a non-serious nuclear attack, hence the desire
        to get
        POTUS
        mobile & away from the area he was scheduled to be in & to a relavtively
        (i.e. no nuclear war concern) place with better comms connectivity than AF1
        had
        at the time. So I have no clue why you're bringing up the 9/11 events...
        *************

        Some of the Reagan era COG stuff came from people I know when I was working
        on a cold war history project and they also confirmed details from the CNN
        special.
        Publicly there was a CNN special called Doomsday government or something
        like


        ************
        My VHS copy of the "Doomsday Government" CNN Special Assignments documentary
        which the producer gave me (with some cool outtakes like some extra footage
        of Mt Weather, et al). is dated 17 November, 1991, which is when the 1 hour
        feature first aired. Somehow the producer tracked me down while they were
        working on it & I provided a very minor, very unclassified, somewhat
        open-source contribution to that documentary. My contribution did not deal
        with COG.
        CNN's feature was pretty much based on a 7 August 1989 US News & World
        Report
        cover-story by Steven Emerson titled 'America's Doomsday Project,' &
        many cost-overruns, system failures, and malfeasance related to sole-source
        bidders were found (mostly found by the gov't itself, not the media).
        ***************

        As I recall that TV special mentioned how COG was
        using some of the old SAGE buildings (at least the underground parts) for
        various
        and many COG related items.


        **********
        I'll be careful here because I haven't watched the video in many years, but
        my recollection contradicts yours. I recall that during a COG test, the old
        SAGE structure at Malmstrom AFB was used as a COG site & there were problems
        with strategic C3,I, with it being reported that in one instance, due to no
        connectivity over at least one special circuit, a POTS or AUTOVON line was
        used. As I said to you before, one of the main purposes of a test is to find
        deficiencies, which they certainly did. I'm not able to factually articulate
        what corrections & improvements may have been made as a result of that test.
        Are you?
        *************

        The identical twin of AF 1 at a field in Virginia was actually covered in a
        news story, quite
        awhile ago. It has its own hanger, that is guarded on an otherwise public
        airport.
        As I recall the article appeared in the Virginia Pilot. I will try and run
        down a copy
        and get the info out. There is several stories from AF people that there is
        actually
        a third plane identical to the first two.
        I goofed on the tail numbers, one is 28000 and the other is 29000, but they
        are identical in every other respect. People on the inside referred to as a
        Decoy,
        but tell me it is/can be used on some missions.

        *********
        I am still waiting for you to re-locate the article that made the claim.
        When you use "AF 1," what airframe type are you specifically referring to,
        the
        VC-25s (747s?). It's a common-sense, common-knowledge thing that for
        high-priority tasks, there is a back-up.
        If the aircraft being used as AF1 is on of the two VC-25As, the back-up bird
        might be the other VC-25A, or it might be a smaller aircraft. You don't
        have to rely on any "insider" to find out that VC-25As 92-8000 & 92-9000 are
        both used as Air Force One. Frankly Robert, if someone is telling you that
        one is a "decoy," I think they're messing with you. Both of those VC-25As
        are
        based at Andrews AFB, &
        usually parked in a nice, big, obvious hangar there. I wonder why no one
        but you seems to be aware of an identical VC-25A, complete with "UNITED
        STATES OF AMERICA" & the Presidential Seal on the sides is hidden at a
        public
        airport in
        Virginia? Trivia question: How many public airports in Virginia are set up
        with
        runway lengths capable of handling a VC-25A take-off & landing? How many of
        those that do also have a hangar to 'hide' a VC-25A in?
        ***********

        Having AF 1 land and plug into the hard wire network was something that was
        considered
        rather remarkable during Reagn , but now is not. As a rule, so people in
        the AF tell me,
        AF 1 can plug into anything on the ground.


        ****************
        Huh? Most of the SAM aircraft have been able to plug-in to landlines since
        at least the early 1970s.
        **********************

        You are probably familiar with HMX 1? mission of going into DC after the
        bomb went off and searching
        for VIP survivors blah blah blah. I recall an article mentioning that a
        number of years ago.


        *************
        I'm pretty sure you're getting USMC's HMX-1 confused with the USAF's former
        2857th Test Group, first based at Olmsted AFB in PA & then Dover AFB DE
        until
        the unit was disbanded. If you've seen an article mentioning HMX-1 doing
        that sort of thing, please add it to your list of articles to try to dig up
        for
        us.
        *****************

        Bottom line, as Zbig found out, if the alert button was pushed out of the
        blue, it would be a total screw
        up getting off the ground, much less getting VIPs out of town before
        something nasty happened.


        ************
        It's a little reassuring to know that there'd be so many screw-ups, it's
        unlikely anyone with a capability to do so would arbitrarily decide to
        initiate
        Emergency War Orders.

        My bottom line however is that I think a lot of what you state as fact is
        wrong.




        Tim

        ************************************** See what's free at
        http://www.aol.com <http://www.aol.com>

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