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Re: Boeing EC-135 Looking Glass aircraft

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  • Xxxxx xxx
    Yes, I saw Crimson Tide, and read and watched The Hunt For... . However I am still ignoring them because they were fictional. I won t dispute both had good
    Message 1 of 27 , Nov 3, 2006
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      Yes, I saw Crimson Tide, and read and watched "The Hunt For...".
      However I am still ignoring them because they were fictional. I won't
      dispute both had good plots. Interestingly enough the author of Red
      Star Rogue does mention the Red October plot by simply reminding us it
      never happened. Seems the Soviets never had a sub go missing that
      couldn't be accounted for today, and the raising of K-129 was the only
      time we stole one of their subs. As the subs involved were Golf class
      with casette tape computers and the changes impacted on those diesel
      subs it is appropriate to talk about them when discussing the changes.
      The author gives us no reason to believe Andropov did not switch back
      to the old way of allowing the Captain to have the codes again. He
      simply doesn't discuss events after Brezhnev.

      There were no HAM radio operators in the USSR as we use the term HAM
      here in the US. There were people allowed to have and use shortwave
      radios, but when and how the radios were used was much more regulated
      under that system than are Hams here in the US.

      Yes, the Soviets used coded burst transmissions but we knew about
      those. They did not (in 68) realize just how good our satellite
      coverage was (which is how we learned of the incident). Nor did they
      know enough about our SONUS systems to be as stealthy as they thought
      they were being. Hydro acoustic methods of signalling a nearby sub
      would be what I would expect a nearby trawler to attempt. Frankly, I
      never realized they operated in patrol squares and had assumed once
      they left port it was the Captains call on where to go. Of course in
      those days, no one was telling us (while beating the war drums)
      members of the public that the range of those early missles was really
      limited. Sure, a man in a rowboat with a properly formatted piece of
      paper would also work to deliver the message, but that's not much of a
      deterrent factor in those early Cold War days of diesel subs. My
      point is that removing the Captain's autonomy crippled the concept of
      swift retaliation and I really don't think we (the public) would have
      been quite so paranoid about a third world war in those days if we had
      realized they had limited retaliatory capability back then.

      The author never mentions what the CIA did with the nukes it recovered
      from the K-129 and supposedly they went to DOE for disposal.

      About the events in 1993, if I recall the tale properly the Parliment
      Building had been picked as the perfect building as no natural event
      was likely to disrupt recoding the basement computer terminal
      periodically, kind of like the scenario on ABC's "Lost." A small
      office in the basement of a Soviet govt building, what could go wrong?
      If the input wasn't made, then it had to mean Moscow had been
      obliterated. In the day the building was built a standoff in the
      floors above just wasn't on anyone's mind.

      --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, hooligan@... wrote:
      >
      > snip
    • John Young
      Steve Bellovin s orginal URL for the PAL crypto study appears dead. Archive.org shows it was last archived in December 2005 (up since 1998):
      Message 2 of 27 , Nov 3, 2006
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        Steve Bellovin's orginal URL for the PAL crypto study appears dead.
        Archive.org shows it was last archived in December 2005 (up since 1998):


        <http://web.archive.org/web/20050213005156/www1.cs.columbia.edu/~smb/nsam-1
        6>http://web.archive.org/web/20050213005156/www1.cs.columbia.edu/~smb/nsam-16
        0/pal.html

        A related study of arming and fuzing nuclear weapons by Chuck Hansen in
        Swords of Armageddon:


        <http://cryptome.org/nukes-fuze.htm>http://cryptome.org/nukes-fuze.htm

        And the US Air Force offers several document nuclear weapons surety that
        describe some of the safety and arming features. One of them:


        <http://cryptome.org/afi91-111.htm>http://cryptome.org/afi91-111.htm

        These are all from the late 1990s.

        These reports that accidental detonation is a continuing investigation and
        development in response to international and public fears -- and human
        frailty of political leaders, military commanders and personnel handling the
        godawful devices.

        Against these fears is the military's demand that safety systems must not
        interfere with rapid response needs. Chuck Hansen's report discusses
        these conflicting requirements and the technical and educational responses
        to them with increasingly sophisticated mechanical and electronic weapons
        arming controls, and, not least, emulating Oppenheimer's and other atomic
        physicists urgings, to persuade those in charge of nuclear weapons that
        wars cannot be won with them.

        Accidental detonation remains the least of the threat compared to the
        continuing terrorism they engender by official policy as from the first
        days of the atomic doomsday era.

        This brings up a candidate for the reading list to complement that
        of chestbeating kind: American Prometheus: The Triumph and Tragedy
        of J. robert Oppenheimer. This recounts the sad consequence of
        paranoid politicians and power-mad militarists manipulation of
        public fears to overbuild nuclear armaments during the Cold War
        and foster a generation of terrified publics around the globe.

        Today's picayune terrorists are small fry by comparison with
        the giants still robbing national treasuries while spreading fear
        as diversion. Perhaps some day fiction wil catch up to this
        banditry, but that will probably not be done by Tom Clancy and
        others making a bundle off perpetuating the need for heroic
        defenses against chimeras of national security threats, in
        secret and camouflaged by lots of smoke.


        At 10:22 AM 11/3/2006 -0500, you wrote:

        >
        > That's Permissive Action Links.
        >
        > Steve Bellovin has studied the history of them:
        >
        >
        > <http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=permissive+action+link
        >
        > s+bellovin>http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=permissive+a
        > ction+links+bellovin
      • David Lesher
        ... Try: http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb/nsam-160/pal.html -- A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com & no one will talk to a host
        Message 3 of 27 , Nov 3, 2006
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          Speaking on Deep Background, the Press Secretary whispered:
          >
          > Steve Bellovin's orginal URL for the PAL crypto study appears dead.
          > Archive.org shows it was last archived in December 2005 (up since 1998):
          >
          >
          > <http://web.archive.org/web/20050213005156/www1.cs.columbia.edu/~smb/nsam-1
          > 6>http://web.archive.org/web/20050213005156/www1.cs.columbia.edu/~smb/nsam-16
          > 0/pal.html


          Try:

          http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb/nsam-160/pal.html




          --
          A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@...
          & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
          Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
          is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
        • Xxxxx xxx
          Thank you for that. Interesting to see Bellovin claims the Soviets were not offered PAL technology until 71, while the author of Red Star Rogue claims the
          Message 4 of 27 , Nov 4, 2006
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            Thank you for that. Interesting to see Bellovin claims the Soviets
            were not offered PAL technology until 71, while the author of Red Star
            Rogue claims the technology transfer occurred about half a decade earlier.

            All in all I sleep safer (not!) knowing the devices are now protected
            by a computerized circuit that is at least as safe and reliable as the
            sensors and computer chip in my 90s vintage (an yes, it is fairly well
            maintained) Jeep.

            If you have ever noticed your car alarm is going off as you drive down
            the highway, or had a brake or an oxygen sensor go bad and report a
            problem where non exists, you will understand my concern.

            Lacking a status board, I would assume the vast majority of PAL
            malfunctions would go largely unnoticed unless an attempt was being
            made to fire the weapon, as most would simply dud the unused warhead.
            This realitization naturally raises questions as to how many deployed
            warheads are actually functional and how many experience sensor
            failure issues which no one notices.

            MTBF, Chaos Theory and Murphy's Law come to mind. I am not sure which
            scenario is worse. Do you want a non-PAL protected device in the
            hands of someone who may react in a negative way to a personal crisis?
            Anyone who knew someone who decided one day to kill themself, but who
            also gave little external advance notice of rising internal stress
            levels, should understand the flaw in that scenario. That, and weapon
            security issues, argue strongly for PAL devices, but the increasing of
            complexity of such devices creates new reliability problems and
            concerns.

            --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, David Lesher <wb8foz@...> wrote:
            >
            >snip
            > >
            > > Steve Bellovin's orginal URL for the PAL crypto study appears dead.
            > snip
            > Try:
            >
            > http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb/nsam-160/pal.html
            >
            >
            > snip
          • John Bass
            Anyone that considers major regional, or even global war, unlikely without nukes, needs seriously to consider the evil that lurks in the hearts of men and
            Message 5 of 27 , Nov 4, 2006
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              Anyone that considers major regional, or even global war, unlikely without nukes, needs seriously to consider the evil that lurks in the hearts of men and women thinking they are doing the right thing for religous, national, and cultural gain. Especially middle east clerics these days, using war to spread their faith, with little regard for other faiths.

              Until the UN can be replaced with a body that has a mandated charter for human rights, the only thing that stands in the way of major regional wars, are what is left of the cold war infrastructure.

              John Young <jya@...> wrote:
              Today's picayune terrorists are small fry by comparison with
              the giants still robbing national treasuries while spreading fear
              as diversion. Perhaps some day fiction wil catch up to this
              banditry, but that will probably not be done by Tom Clancy and
              others making a bundle off perpetuating the need for heroic
              defenses against chimeras of national security threats, in
              secret and camouflaged by lots of smoke.








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            • John Young
              This topic winds back to coldwarcomm in the matter of distributing access codes for arming nuclear weapons: revisions, updates, spoofs, and other customary
              Message 6 of 27 , Nov 4, 2006
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                This topic winds back to coldwarcomm in the matter of distributing
                access codes for arming nuclear weapons: revisions, updates, spoofs,
                and other customary means and methods of cloaking the most secure
                communications, a process never finished, never wholly trustworthy.

                Whatever NSA or the national labs cook up for this, in particular Sandia
                at Kirtland AFB, has to be implemented in the weapons storage and
                distribution systems. At one time Sandia handled most of this, and maybe
                still does. The nuclear weapons training school is there along with a
                host of operations connected to storage and handling the devices.
                That role goes back to the earliest day of the atomic era when the
                Air Force began to get the weapons into the supply stream after
                the Los Alamos folks turned over the results of their laboratory
                work to bomb manufacturers and thence to Kirtland for final arming and
                securing.

                The largest nuclear weapons storage area is still at Kirtland AFB,
                Kirtland Undergound Munitions Storage Complex, with Sandia nearby,
                and presumably Sandia monitors the condition of the weapons
                and assures that they are highly secure and ready for use, whether
                stored or poised for action in silos and on planes, ships and subs.

                To minimize the hazards always posed by the best of secure communications
                systems, the distribution pipe is shortened by rigging the weapons at one
                place and then ship them out to the "nuclear weapons storage areas
                (NWSAs)" worldwide. Kirtland rigs and ships for the Air Force; for the
                Navy it is done at the nuclear submarine naval bases at Bangor and
                Kings Bay. These are guesses based on the multi-volume "Nuclear
                Weapons Databook."

                Even so, once the weapons are rigged and sent into the field there are
                presumably requirements to assure protection of access codes subject to
                cracking or betrayal or, as noted here, insanity and vainglory, and this
                presumably involves transmission over communications systems. Remote
                control of access codes is an intriguing methodology, whether by algorithm
                or classified means. Dud weapons also pose a threat as real to the public
                as the real thing.

                A scientist, William Payne, who worked at Sandia on crypto, inventing devices
                for uses that are classified but could fit nicely in a nuke, got into a fight
                with
                the administration, was canned, and then sued the lab. NSA got into the fight
                because he worked with an NSA team on the crypto gadgets, and NSA
                refused him access to his own work during the suit. A lot of info was
                presented

                to the judge by NSA in camera and the judge refused to make it public. Payne
                eventually sued the judge as well as Sandia, and the suit is continuing.

                A long story to call attention to one example of a crypto wizard who probably
                could crack PALs, having probably helped build them, if he got angry enough.
                He claims to have been approached by foreign elements who got wind of his
                fight with Sandia, and offers were made. Payne says he rebuffed them, not
                for him to do to the US what it was doing to him. For now.

                Payne's web site with gobs of documents of the years-long information
                security tussle (the latest dated yesterday):

                <http://mywebpages.comcast.net/bpayne37/index.htm>http://mywebpages.comcast
                .net/bpayne37/index.htm



                At 06:48 PM 11/4/2006 +0000, you wrote:

                >
                > Thank you for that. Interesting to see Bellovin claims the Soviets
                > were not offered PAL technology until 71, while the author of Red Star
                > Rogue claims the technology transfer occurred about half a decade earlier.
                >
                > All in all I sleep safer (not!) knowing the devices are now protected
                > by a computerized circuit that is at least as safe and reliable as the
                > sensors and computer chip in my 90s vintage (an yes, it is fairly well
                > maintained) Jeep.
                >
                > If you have ever noticed your car alarm is going off as you drive down
                > the highway, or had a brake or an oxygen sensor go bad and report a
                > problem where non exists, you will understand my concern.
                >
                > Lacking a status board, I would assume the vast majority of PAL
                > malfunctions would go largely unnoticed unless an attempt was being
                > made to fire the weapon, as most would simply dud the unused warhead.
                > This realitization naturally raises questions as to how many deployed
                > warheads are actually functional and how many experience sensor
                > failure issues which no one notices.
                >
                > MTBF, Chaos Theory and Murphy's Law come to mind. I am not sure which
                > scenario is worse. Do you want a non-PAL protected device in the
                > hands of someone who may react in a negative way to a personal crisis?
                > Anyone who knew someone who decided one day to kill themself, but who
                > also gave little external advance notice of rising internal stress
                > levels, should understand the flaw in that scenario. That, and weapon
                > security issues, argue strongly for PAL devices, but the increasing of
                > complexity of such devices creates new reliability problems and
                > concerns.
                >
                > --- In <mailto:coldwarcomms%40yahoogroups.com>coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com,
                > David Lesher <wb8foz@...> wrote:
                > >
                > >snip
                > > >
                > > > Steve Bellovin's orginal URL for the PAL crypto study appears dead.
                > > snip
                > > Try:
                > >
                > >
                > <http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb/nsam-160/pal.html>http://www.cs.columbia
                > edu/~smb/nsam-160/pal.html
                > >
                > >
                > > snip
                >
                >
              • John Bass
                I think your intended debate of weapons policy and deployment is off topic for this group - something of an endless rathole. -- John John Young
                Message 7 of 27 , Nov 4, 2006
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                  I think your intended debate of weapons policy and deployment is off topic for this group - something of an endless rathole. -- John



                  John Young <jya@...> wrote: This topic winds back to coldwarcomm in the matter of distributing
                  access codes for arming nuclear weapons: revisions, updates, spoofs,
                  and other customary means and methods of cloaking the most secure
                  communications, a process never finished, never wholly trustworthy.









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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • tsniffin20902
                  Ok, While John s ending statement may have been off topic, the rest of his post was interesting and consistent with on-going discussion. However, your reply
                  Message 8 of 27 , Nov 5, 2006
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                    Ok, While John's ending statement may have been off topic, the rest of
                    his post was interesting and consistent with on-going discussion.
                    However, your reply (below)was even further off topic. Let it go..

                    Reading through Bellovin's research on PALs was very interesting. It
                    forced me to go back through nuc command can control links to
                    understand the process. Political and social issues aside, I'm
                    curious to hear what others on the list view as alternatives to the
                    current PAL/EAS system?

                    TS


                    --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, John Bass <fpga_toys@...> wrote:

                    "Anyone that considers major regional, or even global war, unlikely
                    without nukes, needs seriously to consider the evil that lurks in the
                    hearts of men and women thinking they are doing the right thing for
                    religous, national, and cultural gain. Especially middle east clerics
                    these days, using war to spread their faith, with little regard for
                    other faiths.

                    Until the UN can be replaced with a body that has a mandated charter
                    for human rights, the only thing that stands in the way of major
                    regional wars, are what is left of the cold war infrastructure."

                    --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, John Bass <fpga_toys@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I think your intended debate of weapons policy and deployment is off
                    topic for this group - something of an endless rathole. -- John
                    >
                  • John Bass
                    A lot more than ending statement ... if it s fair game, I ll surely be happy to debate, and rebuke, the politics he presents so strongly. John tsniffin20902
                    Message 9 of 27 , Nov 5, 2006
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                      A lot more than ending statement ... if it's fair game, I'll surely be happy to debate, and rebuke, the politics he presents so strongly.

                      John

                      tsniffin20902 <TSniffin@...> wrote: Ok, While John's ending statement may have been off topic, the rest of
                      his post was interesting and consistent with on-going discussion.
                      However, your reply (below)was even further off topic. Let it go..

                      Reading through Bellovin's research on PALs was very interesting. It
                      forced me to go back through nuc command can control links to
                      understand the process. Political and social issues aside, I'm
                      curious to hear what others on the list view as alternatives to the
                      current PAL/EAS system?

                      TS

                      --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, John Bass <fpga_toys@...> wrote:

                      "Anyone that considers major regional, or even global war, unlikely
                      without nukes, needs seriously to consider the evil that lurks in the
                      hearts of men and women thinking they are doing the right thing for
                      religous, national, and cultural gain. Especially middle east clerics
                      these days, using war to spread their faith, with little regard for
                      other faiths.

                      Until the UN can be replaced with a body that has a mandated charter
                      for human rights, the only thing that stands in the way of major
                      regional wars, are what is left of the cold war infrastructure."

                      --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, John Bass <fpga_toys@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I think your intended debate of weapons policy and deployment is off
                      topic for this group - something of an endless rathole. -- John
                      >






                      ---------------------------------
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                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • David Lesher
                      ... FWIW: Steve promised me an update Real Soon Now on more PAL goodies. I ll let the list know when it is released. -- A host is a host from coast to
                      Message 10 of 27 , Nov 5, 2006
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                        Speaking on Deep Background, the Press Secretary whispered:
                        >
                        >
                        > Reading through Bellovin's research on PALs was very interesting. It
                        > forced me to go back through nuc command can control links to
                        > understand the process. Political and social issues aside, I'm
                        > curious to hear what others on the list view as alternatives to the
                        > current PAL/EAS system?

                        FWIW:
                        Steve promised me an update Real Soon Now on more PAL goodies.
                        I'll let the list know when it is released.



                        --
                        A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@...
                        & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
                        Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
                        is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
                      • Michael Harpe
                        If the knows that contractor from Los Alamos who lived in the trailer park with a junkie he should be able to get a complete set of prints along with documents
                        Message 11 of 27 , Nov 6, 2006
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                          If the knows that contractor from Los Alamos who lived in the trailer park with
                          a junkie he should be able to get a complete set of prints along with documents
                          on how to bypass the PAL altogether!

                          I'm surprised there hasn't been more discussion of that incident on here.

                          I think we should be discussing LANLs security!

                          Mike Harpe

                          --- David Lesher <wb8foz@...> wrote:

                          > Speaking on Deep Background, the Press Secretary whispered:
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Reading through Bellovin's research on PALs was very interesting. It
                          > > forced me to go back through nuc command can control links to
                          > > understand the process. Political and social issues aside, I'm
                          > > curious to hear what others on the list view as alternatives to the
                          > > current PAL/EAS system?
                        • Spencer
                          ... trailer park with ... with documents ... on here. ... interesting. It ... to the ... and I thought this was an information, facts, trivia, and topic site
                          Message 12 of 27 , Nov 6, 2006
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                            --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, Michael Harpe <mharpe79@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > If the knows that contractor from Los Alamos who lived in the
                            trailer park with
                            > a junkie he should be able to get a complete set of prints along
                            with documents
                            > on how to bypass the PAL altogether!
                            >
                            > I'm surprised there hasn't been more discussion of that incident
                            on here.
                            >
                            > I think we should be discussing LANLs security!
                            >
                            > Mike Harpe
                            >
                            > --- David Lesher <wb8foz@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > > Speaking on Deep Background, the Press Secretary whispered:
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > Reading through Bellovin's research on PALs was very
                            interesting. It
                            > > > forced me to go back through nuc command can control links to
                            > > > understand the process. Political and social issues aside, I'm
                            > > > curious to hear what others on the list view as alternatives
                            to the
                            > > > current PAL/EAS system?
                            >
                            and I thought this was an information, facts, trivia, and topic site
                            on communications, insted of a forum to promote wacked out, off
                            topic, views, or debates.

                            SILLY ME
                          • superc
                            I would disagree, or add the caveat, only as they applied to the Cold War. What happened or happens after 1992 or so is, in my opinion, beyond the intended
                            Message 13 of 27 , Nov 6, 2006
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                              I would disagree, or add the caveat, only as they applied to the Cold War. What
                              happened or happens after 1992 or so is, in my opinion, beyond the intended ken of this
                              Yahoo group. If I write of Golf class diesel subs and Soviet problems with commo and
                              control of them, or even PAL A devices, that is a Cold War topic. I truly doubt that
                              anyone here, even if they had some knowledge, would (or should) be willing to discuss
                              current PALs or current control methodologies. When we write of DES cryptography we are
                              in Cold War commo methods, when however we discuss triple DES, or modern encryption keys
                              a decade beyond the capability of the 286 or the 486 that sat on our desks in that era,
                              or commo in the upper double digit giga band we have left the arena of the Cold War and
                              are now talking about things we should not talk about.


                              ---------- Original Message -----------
                              From: John Young <jya@...>
                              To: coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Mon, 06 Nov 2006 11:01:47 -0800
                              Subject: Re: [coldwarcomms] Re: Boeing EC-135 Looking Glass aircraft

                              > Agreed that posts should remain on the topics of the list, but I
                              > understood this thread was about communications of aircraft,
                              > their security and reliability, which, if I understand the field, are
                              > the primary requirements of communications of whatever era
                              > and field of interest.
                              > snip
                            • Michael Harpe
                              Why shouldn t we talk about them? Mike
                              Message 14 of 27 , Nov 6, 2006
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                                Why shouldn't we talk about them?

                                Mike
                                >...we have left the arena of the
                                > Cold War and
                                > are now talking about things we should not talk about.
                              • John Young
                                Agreed that posts should remain on the topics of the list, but I understood this thread was about communications of aircraft, their security and reliability,
                                Message 15 of 27 , Nov 6, 2006
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                                  Agreed that posts should remain on the topics of the list, but I
                                  understood this thread was about communications of aircraft,
                                  their security and reliability, which, if I understand the field, are
                                  the primary requirements of communications of whatever era
                                  and field of interest.

                                  Nuclear weapons came into the picture as a corollary of
                                  comm security and reliability in the face of increasingly sophisticated
                                  attacks as knowledge of codes, ciphers, implementations and weaknesses
                                  have become widespread with the rise of digital technology and the
                                  Internet. That is, as these technologies came of out the secure, secret
                                  realm, in large part due to the wind down of the Cold War and producers
                                  seeking new markets in the open realm not limited to governments,
                                  the capabilities of cracking and spying came to the market as well,
                                  some to be sure on the black market but treachery, betrayal and
                                  illegality were always a feature of secrecy-driven regimes, indeed
                                  were the primary means nations stole each other's secrets.

                                  Coldwarcomms is an intriguing topic for its contribution to the
                                  liberation of Cold War mentality -- paranoia, compulsive secrecy,
                                  shutting out the public from knowledge of what governments were
                                  doing -- and there have been here an impressive amount of
                                  disclosure of useful information of what worked and what was
                                  snake oil.

                                  9/11 slowed that, even reversed it as information was voluntarily
                                  withdrawn, in some cases by request of national security-related
                                  corporations who joined the reawakened opportunity to reinstitute
                                  Cold War games along with a host of practitioners brought back
                                  into government and business just when they believed the gravy
                                  was gone for good.

                                  Spying is up, way up inside the US, thanks to those who know
                                  what side the moldy bread gets the grease. Keep that a secret, they warn,
                                  or more often they just promote tin-foil-hat ridicule and allege off-topicness
                                  -- both hoary tradecraft for hiding what should not be.

                                  Whether nuclear weapons are secure is a long-lived aspect of
                                  coldwarcomms. Disinfo about the topic was a harem-scarem from
                                  Day One, presaging The Day After.
                                • Denny B
                                  Can you gents at least change the subject header so we can errr. manage our email better?
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Nov 6, 2006
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                                    Can you gents at least change the subject header so we
                                    can errr. manage our email better?

                                    --->
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