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lots of things

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  • doug humphrey
    1) terrorist attack is NOT a cold war scenario - even if they have nukes or chem or bio, they don t have thousands of them like the Ruskies did - and remember,
    Message 1 of 7 , Sep 30 8:14 AM
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      1) terrorist attack is NOT a cold war scenario - even if they
      have nukes or chem or bio, they don't have thousands of
      them like the Ruskies did - and remember, it isn't vital that
      YOU survive, just that SOMEONE survives ;-) (I remember
      a briefing a LONG time ago when that was said - not a real
      crowd pleaser ;-(

      1a) hardened facilities are not a help - hardened against
      natural disaster, yes, that is what you are most likely to
      need - bunkers are generally crowded, hard to work on and
      work in, don't have enough space, did I mention crowded?
      Stinky and Smelly (see "crowded" above)

      Also, they are often underground - ok, unless you expect a
      lot of WATER to be the enemy, as it often is. Nothing more
      pitiful (and evidence of the power of nature) then a gov
      EOC having to bail out of their big hunky bomb proof bunker
      because of the rain.

      1b) Electro Magnetic Pulse is not the problem you should
      be worried about - EMP is mainly an issue in air bursts, not
      ground bursts and an issue with larger weapons and not so
      much with smaller - the odds are seriously good that any
      terrorist nuke will be small (big ones are hard to move around)
      and a ground burst - air bursts up high for EMP don't do as
      much damage (their overpressure effect is much less (diluted
      over a huge area (inverse square law)) and they produce less
      fallout because they don't get a chance to irradiate the debris
      like a ground burst does. Remember, we used to do
      atmospheric bursts of small nukes and do NO damage and
      only trace radioactives (yes, spread all over the globe it is
      true) Terrorists are not interested in EMP kill - it is esoteric,
      unpredictable, very much over estimated, and kills
      equipment, not people.


      1c) likely your cold war rad stuff is useless - note CAREFULLY
      that I am NOT saying that it doesn't work - I am saying that
      the high radiation levels that most of that stuff was designed
      for are not likely to happen (if 3 nukes go off in the US, only
      those 3 immediate areas are going to have high-rad conditions)
      and the high rad stuff is horribly inaccurate - as someone else
      here said, it is mainly "get out of here!" warning.

      more likely what you want are low level survey meters that you
      can use to see if someone or something has some
      contamination on it - those have valid safety uses even in peace
      time - you should have them.

      2) satphones - I know a thing or three about these - they come in
      several flavors, but in general they all work well - also, they can
      all run out of resources in case of a widespread emergency when
      a LOT of phones want to make calls, and likely stay off the hook
      for a long time. Both geosync and the LEO (low earth orbit) sats
      have good reliability, that isn't the problem - the weakness is at
      the gateways where they switch things into the telephone network,
      in both cases you can get lots of blocking. You can do a dedicated
      network for this which is non-blocking - been there and done that
      and it works PERFECTLY but it is expensive - Good, fast, cheap -
      choose any two.

      >
      > afford them, why not send EMERGENCY traffic on non-commercial
      > satellites?

      this is a GREAT QUESTION but the answer is sad - there is virtually no
      bandwidth available on ANY of the government birds - the best case would
      be for the emergency stuff to be over on X band on the hardened birds,
      but even the gov is spending a fortune putting their stuff up on the
      commercial
      birds - just no bandwidth on the gov birds for anything else - they are
      really
      very obsolete things, or in the case of the new ones they are mission
      dedicated.

      >
      > Dark fiber would be unaffected, but then networks rely on repeaters
      > for distance as well as routers and other IT stuff. My experience
      > with that equipment is that it is very delicate. It also requires
      > power.

      yes - glass is only as good as it's weakest links, muxing, power,
      repeaters, etc. and NEVER trust the provider of these things to
      be honest with you - you MUST to a physical verification of the
      whole damned network end to end and over and over every
      year to make sure your correct solution didn't get "groomed"
      over into some other piece of crap network.

      >
      > I'm in a rural-interface area. The greenspace is turning into
      > subdivision, but right now we have very little infrastructure. Every
      > time it rains I lose power. For a city guy (my ham call has a 2 in
      > it), that was a BIG adjustment! Wireless coverage here s*cks! Sites
      > have some battery, but generally a jack for a generator and nothing
      > more. They even use 2.4 and 5.8 GHz unlicensed spread spectrum to
      > link whatever sites they have. So, I don't expect much from public
      > infrastructure at all. It's not there when it rains, let alone a nuke
      > detonation.

      again, unless you are in DC, NYC, LA, or maybe a couple of others,
      there is no nuke threat - you are mainly rural? there is nobody on
      the face of the earth who is interested in wasting a nuke on your ass.

      your main nuke issues are fallout from some place down-wind, and
      defense officials coming from DC to make sure you are OK - make
      sure they are not glowing before you shake hands with them.

      you are right on electric of course - you can never trust that no
      matter where you are.

      doug
    • blitz
      The we re here from the gooberment to help you warning is STILL VERY REAL! And your issues would come from BEING downwind...but you know what s being
      Message 2 of 7 , Sep 30 11:16 AM
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        The "we're here from the gooberment to help you" warning is STILL VERY REAL!

        And your issues would come from BEING downwind...but you know what's
        being said...one of the reasons I expect Chicago to be a major
        target, the prevailing winds contaminate a huge population swath
        along the Great Lakes.

        A neighboring county had the best of both worlds, they put their EOC
        bunker high up on a mountainside, and buried it there...water is the
        enemy of many a bunker....they had the advantage of natural drainage.



        >your main nuke issues are fallout from some place down-wind, and
        >defense officials coming from DC to make sure you are OK - make
        >sure they are not glowing before you shake hands with them.
        >
        >you are right on electric of course - you can never trust that no
        >matter where you are.
        >
        >doug
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Denny B
        ... dedicated. This might account for the steady amount of traffic on AF MARS HF phone patch circuits! Denny Beringer K9KRO/AFA3LT
        Message 3 of 7 , Sep 30 11:40 AM
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          >>
          > this is a GREAT QUESTION but the answer is sad -
          > there is virtually no
          > bandwidth available on ANY of the government birds>
          dedicated.

          This might account for the steady amount of traffic on
          AF MARS HF phone patch circuits!

          Denny Beringer
          K9KRO/AFA3LT
        • Paul Rosa
          For the nucler blast freaks, I have a story. My late father served in the Navy in WW II. He thought his ship, the USS Marathon had been attacked by a
          Message 4 of 7 , Sep 30 7:58 PM
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            For the nucler blast freaks, I have a story. My late father served in the Navy in WW II. He thought his ship, the USS Marathon had been attacked by a Japanese torpedo. Not so.

            My brother later did research in the captured Japanese naval records and discovered they had been attacked by a 1-man suicide submarine called a Kaitan. We're splitting hairs here because the Kaitan was little more than a torpedo with a cockpit.. If you want to see a Kaitan, go the the Naval Yard in Washington because they have one on display.

            Anyhow, I shared a few beers with my dad one day. We gradually got around to WWII. I casually asked iif he went on to Japan after his ship was repaired in Okinowa after the Kaitan attack He in turn casually said that they did so. So then I asked him where he went.

            He told me that they sailed into Nagasaki just two weeks after the atomic bomb was dropped. He described to me his personal recoillection of a sterile landscape devoid of human life. He described it as looking at the face of the moon. He said that here and there a steel superstructure existed. Otherwise, there was nothing.

            I asked him what about the radiation. He told me nobody knew about such things. Well, somebody knew about such matters. In point of fact, the military people who encountered this hazard were not told about the circumstances.

            Anyhow, my father survived his experience. His crew picked up the US POW';s from Corregidor and Bataan and, over the course of the one-month cruise back to San Francisco managed to nurse them back to health.

            The members o the crew of the USS Marathon took this as a personal responsibility and a high honor.

            By now they have all gone to join their ancestors, but we should not forget any of them who performed such high deeds without reservation or hesitation.

            So when one talks about blast effects, EMP and other matters, think about the guys who actually encountered such effects without advance knowledge that such effects would happen to them. And also think about the reason why they unkonowingly encountered those effects for the benefit of the POW's who absolutely knew nothing about what was going on.

            Please thank God for all of them, and honor their sacrifice or experience, whether or not they knew what was going on.

            My father was a humble man. Had I not casually asked him over a beer about what really happened, this story would never have been known. I ask only that each of you pass it on to your progeny so that successive generations will ubderstand their American heritage.

            Paul Rosa
            Harpers Ferry, West Virginia

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: blitz
            To: coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 2:16 PM
            Subject: Re: [coldwarcomms] lots of things


            The "we're here from the gooberment to help you" warning is STILL VERY REAL!

            And your issues would come from BEING downwind...but you know what's
            being said...one of the reasons I expect Chicago to be a major
            target, the prevailing winds contaminate a huge population swath
            along the Great Lakes.

            A neighboring county had the best of both worlds, they put their EOC
            bunker high up on a mountainside, and buried it there...water is the
            enemy of many a bunker....they had the advantage of natural drainage.

            >your main nuke issues are fallout from some place down-wind, and
            >defense officials coming from DC to make sure you are OK - make
            >sure they are not glowing before you shake hands with them.
            >
            >you are right on electric of course - you can never trust that no
            >matter where you are.
            >
            >doug
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Pj
            As another side note.. My grandfather was a corpman in the Navy during the atomic tests in the south pacific, and was aboard some of the vessels that took part
            Message 5 of 7 , Oct 1, 2006
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              As another side note..

              My grandfather was a corpman in the Navy during the atomic tests in the south pacific, and was aboard some of the vessels that took part in them. Of course at first, there was "nothing to worry about" and was told at the end that he may have reproductive problems, etc but weren't sure. Think of what the military was telling the soliders in New Mexico during the tests there (think of the movie Fat Man and Little Boy ((I think))....At the beginning.... "The 5 rads you will recieve is nothing....you will be OK Joe!"..and at the end of the movie.."The 50 rads you will be recieving is a-ok!"

              Neverless, he had 6 kids and many grand kids... I think most of us are fairly normal...sorta.


              ----- Original Message ----
              From: Paul Rosa <prosa@...>
              To: coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com
              Cc: yaninjunior@...; kononov@...; konovma@...; lukaszziolo@...; jrhilde@...; rustyirs@...
              Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 10:58:57 PM
              Subject: Re: [coldwarcomms] lots of things






              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • blitz
              Couldn t agree with you more Paul, my sympathies go out to them as well as those soldiers who were present during the initial tests of the nukes who were
              Message 6 of 7 , Oct 2, 2006
              • 0 Attachment
                Couldn't agree with you more Paul, my sympathies go out to them as
                well as those soldiers who were present during the initial tests of
                the nukes who were exposed to high levels of radiation. Its
                unfortunate they were never prepared for it properly, (no one knew
                isn't a real excuse) and most wound up prematurely dead from the
                cancers they developed. Such are the fortunes of war. Sad.

                At 22:58 9/30/2006, you wrote:
                >For the nucler blast freaks, I have a story. My late father served
                >in the Navy in WW II. He thought his ship, the USS Marathon had
                >been attacked by a Japanese torpedo. Not so.
                >
                >My brother later did research in the captured Japanese naval records
                >and discovered they had been attacked by a 1-man suicide submarine
                >called a Kaitan. We're splitting hairs here because the Kaitan was
                >little more than a torpedo with a cockpit.. If you want to see a
                >Kaitan, go the the Naval Yard in Washington because they have one on display.
                >
                >Anyhow, I shared a few beers with my dad one day. We gradually got
                >around to WWII. I casually asked iif he went on to Japan after his
                >ship was repaired in Okinowa after the Kaitan attack He in turn
                >casually said that they did so. So then I asked him where he went.
                >
                >He told me that they sailed into Nagasaki just two weeks after the
                >atomic bomb was dropped. He described to me his personal
                >recoillection of a sterile landscape devoid of human life. He
                >described it as looking at the face of the moon. He said that here
                >and there a steel superstructure existed. Otherwise, there was nothing.
                >
                >I asked him what about the radiation. He told me nobody knew about
                >such things. Well, somebody knew about such matters. In point of
                >fact, the military people who encountered this hazard were not told
                >about the circumstances.
                >
                >Anyhow, my father survived his experience. His crew picked up the
                >US POW';s from Corregidor and Bataan and, over the course of the
                >one-month cruise back to San Francisco managed to nurse them back to health.
                >
                >The members o the crew of the USS Marathon took this as a personal
                >responsibility and a high honor.
                >
                >By now they have all gone to join their ancestors, but we should not
                >forget any of them who performed such high deeds without reservation
                >or hesitation.
                >
                >So when one talks about blast effects, EMP and other matters, think
                >about the guys who actually encountered such effects without advance
                >knowledge that such effects would happen to them. And also think
                >about the reason why they unkonowingly encountered those effects for
                >the benefit of the POW's who absolutely knew nothing about what was going on.
                >
                >Please thank God for all of them, and honor their sacrifice or
                >experience, whether or not they knew what was going on.
                >
                >My father was a humble man. Had I not casually asked him over a
                >beer about what really happened, this story would never have been
                >known. I ask only that each of you pass it on to your progeny so
                >that successive generations will ubderstand their American heritage.
                >
                >Paul Rosa
                >Harpers Ferry, West Virginia
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: blitz
                > To: coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 2:16 PM
                > Subject: Re: [coldwarcomms] lots of things
                >
                >
                > The "we're here from the gooberment to help you" warning is STILL
                > VERY REAL!
                >
                > And your issues would come from BEING downwind...but you know what's
                > being said...one of the reasons I expect Chicago to be a major
                > target, the prevailing winds contaminate a huge population swath
                > along the Great Lakes.
                >
                > A neighboring county had the best of both worlds, they put their EOC
                > bunker high up on a mountainside, and buried it there...water is the
                > enemy of many a bunker....they had the advantage of natural drainage.
                >
                > >your main nuke issues are fallout from some place down-wind, and
                > >defense officials coming from DC to make sure you are OK - make
                > >sure they are not glowing before you shake hands with them.
                > >
                > >you are right on electric of course - you can never trust that no
                > >matter where you are.
                > >
                > >doug
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Steve
                That s pretty scary I remember going into my basement in Norther West Virginia during the Cuban Missle Crisis, where we had our bathroom on this curious cement
                Message 7 of 7 , Oct 2, 2006
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                  That's pretty scary I remember going into my basement in Norther West
                  Virginia during the Cuban Missle Crisis, where we had our bathroom on
                  this curious cement floor machine shop like environment and wondering if
                  my neighborhood would look like a sterile blasted landscape. I was about
                  10 at the time. I always suspect it was that that got me to tell my
                  father I didn't want anymore buzz cuts every week and I wanted to go the
                  libnrary instead.

                  Have Fun,
                  Sends Steve



                  blitz wrote:

                  > Couldn't agree with you more Paul, my sympathies go out to them as
                  > well as those soldiers who were present during the initial tests of
                  > the nukes who were exposed to high levels of radiation. Its
                  > unfortunate they were never prepared for it properly, (no one knew
                  > isn't a real excuse) and most wound up prematurely dead from the
                  > cancers they developed. Such are the fortunes of war. Sad.
                  >
                  > At 22:58 9/30/2006, you wrote:
                  > >For the nucler blast freaks, I have a story. My late father served
                  > >in the Navy in WW II. He thought his ship, the USS Marathon had
                  > >been attacked by a Japanese torpedo. Not so.
                  > >
                  > >My brother later did research in the captured Japanese naval records
                  > >and discovered they had been attacked by a 1-man suicide submarine
                  > >called a Kaitan. We're splitting hairs here because the Kaitan was
                  > >little more than a torpedo with a cockpit.. If you want to see a
                  > >Kaitan, go the the Naval Yard in Washington because they have one on
                  > display.
                  > >
                  > >Anyhow, I shared a few beers with my dad one day. We gradually got
                  > >around to WWII. I casually asked iif he went on to Japan after his
                  > >ship was repaired in Okinowa after the Kaitan attack He in turn
                  > >casually said that they did so. So then I asked him where he went.
                  > >
                  > >He told me that they sailed into Nagasaki just two weeks after the
                  > >atomic bomb was dropped. He described to me his personal
                  > >recoillection of a sterile landscape devoid of human life. He
                  > >described it as looking at the face of the moon. He said that here
                  > >and there a steel superstructure existed. Otherwise, there was nothing.
                  > >
                  > >I asked him what about the radiation. He told me nobody knew about
                  > >such things. Well, somebody knew about such matters. In point of
                  > >fact, the military people who encountered this hazard were not told
                  > >about the circumstances.
                  > >
                  > >Anyhow, my father survived his experience. His crew picked up the
                  > >US POW';s from Corregidor and Bataan and, over the course of the
                  > >one-month cruise back to San Francisco managed to nurse them back to
                  > health.
                  > >
                  > >The members o the crew of the USS Marathon took this as a personal
                  > >responsibility and a high honor.
                  > >
                  > >By now they have all gone to join their ancestors, but we should not
                  > >forget any of them who performed such high deeds without reservation
                  > >or hesitation.
                  > >
                  > >So when one talks about blast effects, EMP and other matters, think
                  > >about the guys who actually encountered such effects without advance
                  > >knowledge that such effects would happen to them. And also think
                  > >about the reason why they unkonowingly encountered those effects for
                  > >the benefit of the POW's who absolutely knew nothing about what was
                  > going on.
                  > >
                  > >Please thank God for all of them, and honor their sacrifice or
                  > >experience, whether or not they knew what was going on.
                  > >
                  > >My father was a humble man. Had I not casually asked him over a
                  > >beer about what really happened, this story would never have been
                  > >known. I ask only that each of you pass it on to your progeny so
                  > >that successive generations will ubderstand their American heritage.
                  > >
                  > >Paul Rosa
                  > >Harpers Ferry, West Virginia
                  > >
                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > From: blitz
                  > > To: coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com <mailto:coldwarcomms%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > > Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 2:16 PM
                  > > Subject: Re: [coldwarcomms] lots of things
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > The "we're here from the gooberment to help you" warning is STILL
                  > > VERY REAL!
                  > >
                  > > And your issues would come from BEING downwind...but you know what's
                  > > being said...one of the reasons I expect Chicago to be a major
                  > > target, the prevailing winds contaminate a huge population swath
                  > > along the Great Lakes.
                  > >
                  > > A neighboring county had the best of both worlds, they put their EOC
                  > > bunker high up on a mountainside, and buried it there...water is the
                  > > enemy of many a bunker....they had the advantage of natural drainage.
                  > >
                  > > >your main nuke issues are fallout from some place down-wind, and
                  > > >defense officials coming from DC to make sure you are OK - make
                  > > >sure they are not glowing before you shake hands with them.
                  > > >
                  > > >you are right on electric of course - you can never trust that no
                  > > >matter where you are.
                  > > >
                  > > >doug
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
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