Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [coldwarcomms] Submarine cables to Pentagon?

Expand Messages
  • Pete Misisco
    It was some time ago, but I do remember cable crossing signs on the fender system of the CSX railroad swing bridge just downstream of the Pentagon. That may
    Message 1 of 20 , Aug 21, 2006
    • 0 Attachment
      It was some time ago, but I do remember "cable crossing" signs on the
      fender system of the CSX railroad swing bridge just downstream of the
      Pentagon. That may have had more to do with powering the machinery for
      the movable span, but could plausibly be for telco cables too.

      Also, remember that the original 14th St. Bridge and the Memorial Bridge
      were at one time both working drawbridges. Any cables that would have
      crossed that part of the river couldn't have been strapped to the bridge
      deck.

      Pete



      On Sun, 20 Aug 2006, Albert LaFrance wrote:

      > A 1944 Western Electric booklet titled "Circuits for Victory: Western Electric Through its First 75
      > Years" includes (p. 13) a photo of cable reels on a barge at a dock, with the caption:
      >
      > "In 1942, these giant reels of submarine cable manufactured by the great cable-armoring machines at
      > Point Breeze [in Baltimore, MD] were transported by barges to be laid under the Potomac, connecting
      > the Army Pentagon building at Arlington, Va., with Washington exchanges."
      >
      > That's the first I'd heard of any underwater telephone cables in the immediate DC area. Does anyone
      > have more information about them?
      >
      > I know of two Long Lines cable routes which would have crossed the river: Dranesville to Washington
      > 3, and Garden City to Washington 1. But I'd always assumed - perhaps incorrectly - that the cables
      > were in conduits on bridges.
      >
      > Albert
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >

      -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
      Peter E. Misisco
      Broadcast Engineer
      Reston, Virginia
    • Albert LaFrance
      My theory is that the East Potomac Park project is primarily a hardened shelter/EOC for use in short/no-notice attacks on Washington area, and is very possibly
      Message 2 of 20 , Aug 25, 2006
      • 0 Attachment
        My theory is that the East Potomac Park project is primarily a hardened shelter/EOC for use in
        short/no-notice attacks on Washington area, and is very possibly linked by tunnels to the Pentagon,
        White House and/or other nearby federal buildings. In fact, we may finally be seeing some version
        of the DUCC concept ( http://coldwar-c4i.net/DUCC/ ) or one of its successors, though I'd bet that
        it's nowhere near the original proposed depth of 3500 ft.

        I don't think that the installation of communications lines is a major goal of the project, because
        the apparent extent of the construction work far exceeds what would be needed for that purpose. For
        example, directional drilling technology has advanced to a point where long underwater bores are
        very feasible even for regular telecom projects.

        In some ways, a close-in shelter makes more sense in today's threat environment that it did in the
        Cold War era. In those days, the threat to Washington was better defined: a nuclear weapon,
        presumed capable of destroying much of the city, delivered by a Soviet missile or bomber.
        Early-warning systems could be expected to provide enough notice to allow helicopter evacuation of
        key officials and activation of emergency relocation sites, and except for the "bolt from the blue"
        scenario, additional warning would come from Soviet-bloc military movements and diplomatic actions.
        Furthermore, the development of more powerful weapons likely made sheltering in place unacceptably
        risky.

        In contrast, the present terrorist threat includes an ever-changing array of potential attackers, a
        variety of possible targets, multiple types of weapons - not just a nuclear detonations but also
        radioactive, chemical and biological agents, and conventional explosives - all with multiple
        delivery modes. In addition, the attack would likely take place with little or no warning, and its
        nature might not immediately be obvious (e.g. detonation of a RDD would appear as a simple bombing
        until radiation measurements were made).

        And because mass transit is a known terrorist target, I think it's unlikely that the Metro is a part
        of a senior VIP evacuation plan or that East Potomac Park was chosen for its proximity to a Metro
        line.

        Albert

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "John Young" <jya@...>
        To: <coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 2:04 PM
        Subject: RE: [coldwarcomms] Submarine cables to Pentagon?


        > The extensive underground work located in East Potomac Park next to
        > the National Park Service facility, reportedly directed by the US Navy, may
        > have as one of its purposes to provide better-protected passage for
        > trans-Potomac communication lines.
        >
        > What began as a small, openly-visible staging yard has become a fully
        > enclosed multi-building operation, with a quite noisy exhaust fan facing
        > traffic on the adjacent highway. The high-volume fan is probably for
        > exhausting the excavation.
        >
        > (Other noisy high volume fans can be heard from sidewalk grates towards
        > the White House but these may be to ventilate the subway rather than
        > related to this operation.)
        >
        > An 8-foot high, solid board fence surrounds the operation at East Potomac,
        > with two contractors identified at the entrance as Clark Construction and
        > Kiewet. Kiewet is a well-known underground contractor which specializes
        > in tunnels and mines.
        >
        > This site adjoins the subway tunnel under the river and the work may only
        > parallel the subway or be an expansion of it. Subway tunnels, like bridges,
        > are often used to house communications cabling. Some are built with
        > unpublicized cable and servicing accommodations for security, and a
        > few have truly secret purposes and/or capabilities which are cloaked by
        > the public functions.
        >
        > Curious that the US Navy is said to be in charge rather than the Army
        > Corps of Engineers, but that may be due to the riverine aspect of the
        > project or perhaps more.
        >
        > For example, this operation may be excavating under East Potomac Park
        > rather than tunneling under the river, if not both, with possible tie-ins
        > across
        > Washington Channel to McNair and the Navy Yard and across the Anacostia
        > to the Naval Station and McDill.
        >
        > Older underground work at the Ellipse, and new work supposedly associated
        > with a new subterranean tourist and press center may be related to the
        > Navy project. There has been a huge increase in underground government
        > facilities since 9/11 around the world, and most are secret.
        >
        > Possible White House emergency evacuation via underground systems
        > were debunked here a while back, so that is a long-shot. That long-running
        > project at Treasury is reportedly for mere renovation of the aged structure.
        > But its long life comes closer to that of an underground project below the
        > observables.
      • hooligan@aol.com
        Another thing that sounds wrong, because it is wrong, is McDill. It is now, & has been for about the past sixty-five years, MacDill AFB. In a message
        Message 3 of 20 , Aug 26, 2006
        • 0 Attachment
          Another thing that sounds wrong, because it is wrong, is "McDill." It is
          now, & has been for about the past sixty-five years, MacDill AFB.


          In a message dated 8/25/2006 8:33:09 AM Pacific Standard Time,
          mharpe79@... writes:

          Good! I thought that sounded wrong. McDill is outside Tampa.



          Cryptome rules, John!

          Thanks!

          Mike Harpe

          --- John Young <jya at pipeline.com> wrote:

          > Bolling AFB not McDill, off-target by merely 1000 miles.
          >
          > "... across the Anacostia to the Naval Station and McDill."





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Kenneth Coney
          I always thought the Crystal City complex (begun shortly after the letters) was what happened to the DUCC concept. The foundations of some of those buildings
          Message 4 of 20 , Aug 26, 2006
          • 0 Attachment
            I always thought the Crystal City complex (begun shortly after the
            letters) was what happened to the DUCC concept. The foundations of some
            of those buildings were easily deep enough to stick a small office
            complex in the bottom somewhere. Digging oneself out from -3000 feet
            after the 100 meg burst above would be fun, but technically survivable
            as a facility.

            Albert LaFrance wrote:
            > My theory is that the East Potomac Park project is primarily a hardened shelter/EOC for use in
            > short/no-notice attacks on Washington area, and is very possibly linked by tunnels to the Pentagon,
            > White House and/or other nearby federal buildings. In fact, we may finally be seeing some version
            > of the DUCC concept ( http://coldwar-c4i.net/DUCC/ ) or one of its successors, though I'd bet that
            > it's nowhere near the original proposed depth of 3500 ft.
            >
            > I don't think that the installation of communications lines is a major goal of the project, because
            > the apparent extent of the construction work far exceeds what would be needed for that purpose. For
            > example, directional drilling technology has advanced to a point where long underwater bores are
            > very feasible even for regular telecom projects.
            >
            > In some ways, a close-in shelter makes more sense in today's threat environment that it did in the
            > Cold War era. In those days, the threat to Washington was better defined: a nuclear weapon,
            > presumed capable of destroying much of the city, delivered by a Soviet missile or bomber.
            > Early-warning systems could be expected to provide enough notice to allow helicopter evacuation of
            > key officials and activation of emergency relocation sites, and except for the "bolt from the blue"
            > scenario, additional warning would come from Soviet-bloc military movements and diplomatic actions.
            > Furthermore, the development of more powerful weapons likely made sheltering in place unacceptably
            > risky.
            >
            > In contrast, the present terrorist threat includes an ever-changing array of potential attackers, a
            > variety of possible targets, multiple types of weapons - not just a nuclear detonations but also
            > radioactive, chemical and biological agents, and conventional explosives - all with multiple
            > delivery modes. In addition, the attack would likely take place with little or no warning, and its
            > nature might not immediately be obvious (e.g. detonation of a RDD would appear as a simple bombing
            > until radiation measurements were made).
            >
            > And because mass transit is a known terrorist target, I think it's unlikely that the Metro is a part
            > of a senior VIP evacuation plan or that East Potomac Park was chosen for its proximity to a Metro
            > line.
            >
            > Albert
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "John Young" <jya@...>
            > To: <coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 2:04 PM
            > Subject: RE: [coldwarcomms] Submarine cables to Pentagon?
            >
            >
            >
            >> The extensive underground work located in East Potomac Park next to
            >> the National Park Service facility, reportedly directed by the US Navy, may
            >> have as one of its purposes to provide better-protected passage for
            >> trans-Potomac communication lines.
            >>
            >> What began as a small, openly-visible staging yard has become a fully
            >> enclosed multi-building operation, with a quite noisy exhaust fan facing
            >> traffic on the adjacent highway. The high-volume fan is probably for
            >> exhausting the excavation.
            >>
            >> (Other noisy high volume fans can be heard from sidewalk grates towards
            >> the White House but these may be to ventilate the subway rather than
            >> related to this operation.)
            >>
            >> An 8-foot high, solid board fence surrounds the operation at East Potomac,
            >> with two contractors identified at the entrance as Clark Construction and
            >> Kiewet. Kiewet is a well-known underground contractor which specializes
            >> in tunnels and mines.
            >>
            >> This site adjoins the subway tunnel under the river and the work may only
            >> parallel the subway or be an expansion of it. Subway tunnels, like bridges,
            >> are often used to house communications cabling. Some are built with
            >> unpublicized cable and servicing accommodations for security, and a
            >> few have truly secret purposes and/or capabilities which are cloaked by
            >> the public functions.
            >>
            >> Curious that the US Navy is said to be in charge rather than the Army
            >> Corps of Engineers, but that may be due to the riverine aspect of the
            >> project or perhaps more.
            >>
            >> For example, this operation may be excavating under East Potomac Park
            >> rather than tunneling under the river, if not both, with possible tie-ins
            >> across
            >> Washington Channel to McNair and the Navy Yard and across the Anacostia
            >> to the Naval Station and McDill.
            >>
            >> Older underground work at the Ellipse, and new work supposedly associated
            >> with a new subterranean tourist and press center may be related to the
            >> Navy project. There has been a huge increase in underground government
            >> facilities since 9/11 around the world, and most are secret.
            >>
            >> Possible White House emergency evacuation via underground systems
            >> were debunked here a while back, so that is a long-shot. That long-running
            >> project at Treasury is reportedly for mere renovation of the aged structure.
            >> But its long life comes closer to that of an underground project below the
            >> observables.
            >>
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • tsniffin20902
            I wouldn t think a tunnel to the White House would be easily constructed from this location given the amount of underground crap (old sewer tunnels, utility
            Message 5 of 20 , Aug 28, 2006
            • 0 Attachment
              I wouldn't think a tunnel to the White House would be easily
              constructed from this location given the amount of underground "crap"
              (old sewer tunnels, utility lines, steam pipes, etc..), but the rest
              of your logic is dead on. Given that the HSOC and many other vital
              facilities that would be fully staffed during an incident in/around DC
              are located in leased office space and open areas it would make sense
              to have a secure, hardened facility for the feds to run to.

              I don't remember the timing, but perhaps this is the solution to the
              GSA perimeter set back requirements that have forced other federal
              clients to move outside the immediate area to more remote/secure
              locations?

              I too am curious why the Navy was selected to manage the project.
              Perhaps the missile battery or radar control facility really do make
              more sense? I'll have to make a vist down there this week and see
              what has changed lately.

              Todd


              --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, "Albert LaFrance" <lafrance@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > My theory is that the East Potomac Park project is primarily a
              hardened shelter/EOC for use in
              > short/no-notice attacks on Washington area, and is very possibly
              linked by tunnels to the Pentagon,
              > White House and/or other nearby federal buildings. In fact, we may
              finally be seeing some version
              > of the DUCC concept ( http://coldwar-c4i.net/DUCC/ ) or one of its
              successors, though I'd bet that
              > it's nowhere near the original proposed depth of 3500 ft.
              >
              > I don't think that the installation of communications lines is a
              major goal of the project, because
              > the apparent extent of the construction work far exceeds what would
              be needed for that purpose. For
              > example, directional drilling technology has advanced to a point
              where long underwater bores are
              > very feasible even for regular telecom projects.
              >
              > In some ways, a close-in shelter makes more sense in today's threat
              environment that it did in the
              > Cold War era. In those days, the threat to Washington was better
              defined: a nuclear weapon,
              > presumed capable of destroying much of the city, delivered by a
              Soviet missile or bomber.
              > Early-warning systems could be expected to provide enough notice to
              allow helicopter evacuation of
              > key officials and activation of emergency relocation sites, and
              except for the "bolt from the blue"
              > scenario, additional warning would come from Soviet-bloc military
              movements and diplomatic actions.
              > Furthermore, the development of more powerful weapons likely made
              sheltering in place unacceptably
              > risky.
              >
              > In contrast, the present terrorist threat includes an ever-changing
              array of potential attackers, a
              > variety of possible targets, multiple types of weapons - not just a
              nuclear detonations but also
              > radioactive, chemical and biological agents, and conventional
              explosives - all with multiple
              > delivery modes. In addition, the attack would likely take place
              with little or no warning, and its
              > nature might not immediately be obvious (e.g. detonation of a RDD
              would appear as a simple bombing
              > until radiation measurements were made).
              >
              > And because mass transit is a known terrorist target, I think it's
              unlikely that the Metro is a part
              > of a senior VIP evacuation plan or that East Potomac Park was
              chosen for its proximity to a Metro
              > line.
              >
              > Albert
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "John Young" <jya@...>
              > To: <coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 2:04 PM
              > Subject: RE: [coldwarcomms] Submarine cables to Pentagon?
              >
              >
              > > The extensive underground work located in East Potomac Park next to
              > > the National Park Service facility, reportedly directed by the US
              Navy, may
              > > have as one of its purposes to provide better-protected passage for
              > > trans-Potomac communication lines.
              > >
              > > What began as a small, openly-visible staging yard has become a fully
              > > enclosed multi-building operation, with a quite noisy exhaust fan
              facing
              > > traffic on the adjacent highway. The high-volume fan is probably for
              > > exhausting the excavation.
              > >
              > > (Other noisy high volume fans can be heard from sidewalk grates
              towards
              > > the White House but these may be to ventilate the subway rather than
              > > related to this operation.)
              > >
              > > An 8-foot high, solid board fence surrounds the operation at East
              Potomac,
              > > with two contractors identified at the entrance as Clark
              Construction and
              > > Kiewet. Kiewet is a well-known underground contractor which
              specializes
              > > in tunnels and mines.
              > >
              > > This site adjoins the subway tunnel under the river and the work
              may only
              > > parallel the subway or be an expansion of it. Subway tunnels, like
              bridges,
              > > are often used to house communications cabling. Some are built with
              > > unpublicized cable and servicing accommodations for security, and a
              > > few have truly secret purposes and/or capabilities which are
              cloaked by
              > > the public functions.
              > >
              > > Curious that the US Navy is said to be in charge rather than the Army
              > > Corps of Engineers, but that may be due to the riverine aspect of the
              > > project or perhaps more.
              > >
              > > For example, this operation may be excavating under East Potomac Park
              > > rather than tunneling under the river, if not both, with possible
              tie-ins
              > > across
              > > Washington Channel to McNair and the Navy Yard and across the
              Anacostia
              > > to the Naval Station and McDill.
              > >
              > > Older underground work at the Ellipse, and new work supposedly
              associated
              > > with a new subterranean tourist and press center may be related to the
              > > Navy project. There has been a huge increase in underground government
              > > facilities since 9/11 around the world, and most are secret.
              > >
              > > Possible White House emergency evacuation via underground systems
              > > were debunked here a while back, so that is a long-shot. That
              long-running
              > > project at Treasury is reportedly for mere renovation of the aged
              structure.
              > > But its long life comes closer to that of an underground project
              below the
              > > observables.
              >
            • Charles Fargis
              maybe corps of engineers is too tapped out or suffering from post Katrina and the CeeBees are at work! ... From: coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com
              Message 6 of 20 , Aug 28, 2006
              • 0 Attachment
                maybe corps of engineers is too tapped out or suffering from post Katrina
                and the CeeBees are at work!

                -----Original Message-----
                From: coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com [mailto:coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com] On
                Behalf Of tsniffin20902
                Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 3:19 AM
                To: coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [coldwarcomms] Re: Submarine cables to Pentagon?



                I wouldn't think a tunnel to the White House would be easily
                constructed from this location given the amount of underground "crap"
                (old sewer tunnels, utility lines, steam pipes, etc..), but the rest
                of your logic is dead on. Given that the HSOC and many other vital
                facilities that would be fully staffed during an incident in/around DC
                are located in leased office space and open areas it would make sense
                to have a secure, hardened facility for the feds to run to.

                I don't remember the timing, but perhaps this is the solution to the
                GSA perimeter set back requirements that have forced other federal
                clients to move outside the immediate area to more remote/secure
                locations?

                I too am curious why the Navy was selected to manage the project.
                Perhaps the missile battery or radar control facility really do make
                more sense? I'll have to make a vist down there this week and see
                what has changed lately.

                Todd

                --- In coldwarcomms@ <mailto:coldwarcomms%40yahoogroups.com>
                yahoogroups.com, "Albert LaFrance" <lafrance@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > My theory is that the East Potomac Park project is primarily a
                hardened shelter/EOC for use in
                > short/no-notice attacks on Washington area, and is very possibly
                linked by tunnels to the Pentagon,
                > White House and/or other nearby federal buildings. In fact, we may
                finally be seeing some version
                > of the DUCC concept ( http://coldwar- <http://coldwar-c4i.net/DUCC/>
                c4i.net/DUCC/ ) or one of its
                successors, though I'd bet that
                > it's nowhere near the original proposed depth of 3500 ft.
                >
                > I don't think that the installation of communications lines is a
                major goal of the project, because
                > the apparent extent of the construction work far exceeds what would
                be needed for that purpose. For
                > example, directional drilling technology has advanced to a point
                where long underwater bores are
                > very feasible even for regular telecom projects.
                >
                > In some ways, a close-in shelter makes more sense in today's threat
                environment that it did in the
                > Cold War era. In those days, the threat to Washington was better
                defined: a nuclear weapon,
                > presumed capable of destroying much of the city, delivered by a
                Soviet missile or bomber.
                > Early-warning systems could be expected to provide enough notice to
                allow helicopter evacuation of
                > key officials and activation of emergency relocation sites, and
                except for the "bolt from the blue"
                > scenario, additional warning would come from Soviet-bloc military
                movements and diplomatic actions.
                > Furthermore, the development of more powerful weapons likely made
                sheltering in place unacceptably
                > risky.
                >
                > In contrast, the present terrorist threat includes an ever-changing
                array of potential attackers, a
                > variety of possible targets, multiple types of weapons - not just a
                nuclear detonations but also
                > radioactive, chemical and biological agents, and conventional
                explosives - all with multiple
                > delivery modes. In addition, the attack would likely take place
                with little or no warning, and its
                > nature might not immediately be obvious (e.g. detonation of a RDD
                would appear as a simple bombing
                > until radiation measurements were made).
                >
                > And because mass transit is a known terrorist target, I think it's
                unlikely that the Metro is a part
                > of a senior VIP evacuation plan or that East Potomac Park was
                chosen for its proximity to a Metro
                > line.
                >
                > Albert
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "John Young" <jya@...>
                > To: <coldwarcomms@ <mailto:coldwarcomms%40yahoogroups.com>
                yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 2:04 PM
                > Subject: RE: [coldwarcomms] Submarine cables to Pentagon?
                >
                >
                > > The extensive underground work located in East Potomac Park next to
                > > the National Park Service facility, reportedly directed by the US
                Navy, may
                > > have as one of its purposes to provide better-protected passage for
                > > trans-Potomac communication lines.
                > >
                > > What began as a small, openly-visible staging yard has become a fully
                > > enclosed multi-building operation, with a quite noisy exhaust fan
                facing
                > > traffic on the adjacent highway. The high-volume fan is probably for
                > > exhausting the excavation.
                > >
                > > (Other noisy high volume fans can be heard from sidewalk grates
                towards
                > > the White House but these may be to ventilate the subway rather than
                > > related to this operation.)
                > >
                > > An 8-foot high, solid board fence surrounds the operation at East
                Potomac,
                > > with two contractors identified at the entrance as Clark
                Construction and
                > > Kiewet. Kiewet is a well-known underground contractor which
                specializes
                > > in tunnels and mines.
                > >
                > > This site adjoins the subway tunnel under the river and the work
                may only
                > > parallel the subway or be an expansion of it. Subway tunnels, like
                bridges,
                > > are often used to house communications cabling. Some are built with
                > > unpublicized cable and servicing accommodations for security, and a
                > > few have truly secret purposes and/or capabilities which are
                cloaked by
                > > the public functions.
                > >
                > > Curious that the US Navy is said to be in charge rather than the Army
                > > Corps of Engineers, but that may be due to the riverine aspect of the
                > > project or perhaps more.
                > >
                > > For example, this operation may be excavating under East Potomac Park
                > > rather than tunneling under the river, if not both, with possible
                tie-ins
                > > across
                > > Washington Channel to McNair and the Navy Yard and across the
                Anacostia
                > > to the Naval Station and McDill.
                > >
                > > Older underground work at the Ellipse, and new work supposedly
                associated
                > > with a new subterranean tourist and press center may be related to the
                > > Navy project. There has been a huge increase in underground government
                > > facilities since 9/11 around the world, and most are secret.
                > >
                > > Possible White House emergency evacuation via underground systems
                > > were debunked here a while back, so that is a long-shot. That
                long-running
                > > project at Treasury is reportedly for mere renovation of the aged
                structure.
                > > But its long life comes closer to that of an underground project
                below the
                > > observables.
                >







                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • John Young
                There are three submarine Potomac cable crossings in the Pentagon area shown on a nautical chart available here:
                Message 7 of 20 , Aug 28, 2006
                • 0 Attachment
                  There are three submarine Potomac cable crossings in the Pentagon area
                  shown on a nautical chart available here:


                  http://www.nauticalcharts.gov/bookletcharts/12289_BookletChart.pdf

                  Scroll down to page 4.

                  One area is below the five bridges connecting East Potomac Park to
                  Virginia, another nearby and a third not far upriver.

                  Nauticalcharts.gov is a marvelous resource which I had not seen before.
                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.