Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [code-switching] Re: Code switching and borrowing... again

Expand Messages
  • Patricia Torres
    Karina, Jim, thanks a lot for adding new approaches to the debate. Jim, I m glad you mentioned the phonological aspect. Several students listed Chicago as a
    Message 1 of 11 , Jun 8, 2011
    • 0 Attachment
      Karina, Jim, thanks a lot for adding new approaches to the debate.

      Jim, I'm glad you mentioned the phonological aspect. Several students listed
      "Chicago" as a borrowing and other wrote "spaghetti" when typing the audios
      (instead of Spanish "espagueti") because "it is pronounced in English",
      students said.

      Having said that, I cannot check now, but I am almost certain that in the
      corpus (the TV show in Spanish but produced in Miami), tag phrases such as
      "anyway" and "sorry" are pronounced following the phonological rules of
      English -at the beginning or the end of a phrase in Spanish. Young people
      here (Venezuela) from time to time use such tag phrases, but they pronounce
      them using Spanish phonemes (most evidently in the double 'r' in 'sorry').
      Interesting, for their follow-up (try to determine whether Spanglish is
      spreading to Latin America).

      Karina, none of the student has added a communicative dimension to the
      debate. I'm going to mention it... to see what new ideas they propose.

      Best,

      Patricia

      On Tue, Jun 7, 2011 at 2:51 PM, Jim Fidelholtz <fidelholtz@...> wrote:

      > Hi, All (Hola a todos),
      >
      > I'm very surprised that really no one seems to have mentioned the
      > phonological aspects in this discussion of borrowings vs. code switching.
      > The discussion has matured a bit since the topic was raised, oh, in the
      > 1990s, if memory serves, but many of the same points have been raised.
      >
      > Specifically, consider the English word Bach (the composer). Anyone
      > minimally 'culto' (American, which means pretty minimally ;-)> ) pronounces
      > the name [bax] (NB: the [x] is virtually identical to the Mexican Spanish
      > <j>), and this is true whether or not they have the slightest knowledge of
      > German. Now, in earlier discussions, various persons maintained that this
      > was 'code-switching', but the facts presented in this paragraph indicate
      > that that position is an absurdity, since (1) not all who have that
      > pronunciation even know German and (2) German [x] is never the pure velar
      > like the Mexican voiceless velar fricative, but is either further back
      > (almost postvelar, as in [ba>x]) or almost palatal (prevelar, as in [i�]
      > <ich> 'I'), depending on the preceding vowel. In the same vein, I would
      > query how the putatively English word 'so' is pronounced in the example
      > given. If it is [sow], then there could be a decent case that it is a case
      > of code switching. BUT if it pronounced [so] as in the expression 'so pena
      > de �', then it is a bona fide borrowing into Spanish. I have no doubt that
      > there could be intermediate cases, as in the early stages of borrowing, as
      > well.
      >
      > Just a couple of thoughts on the subject.
      >
      > Jim
      >
      > --
      > James L. Fidelholtz
      > Posgrado en Ciencias del Lenguaje
      > Instituto de Ciencias Sociales y Humanidades
      > Benem�rita Universidad Aut�noma de Puebla, M�XICO
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > To Post a message: code-switching @ yahoogroups.com
      > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
      > code-switching-unsubscribe @ yahoogroups.com
      > Web page: http//groups.yahoo.com/group/code-switchingYahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Leonie Kotze
      Dear Patricia (and others) In my first reply I mentioned the current notion in the linguistic field which regard language NOT as abound entity, but as a more
      Message 2 of 11 , Jun 9, 2011
      • 0 Attachment
        Dear Patricia (and others)



        In my first reply I mentioned the current notion in the linguistic field
        which regard language NOT as abound entity, but as a more fluid eh .
        phenomenon, for lack of a better word at the moment. I said in my email
        that I would try to get more detail about this. Here it is: The notion is
        called * METROLINGUALISM and has been coined by Otsuji and Pennycook in 2010
        in an article in the International Journal of Multilingualism. Patricia,
        this might complicate matters even further, but on the other hand, I think
        it could prove very helpful with all the confusion and disagreement around
        various terms for different occurences in mixed languages.



        I must admit that I have not read the article myself, but metrolinguilism
        was briefly discussed in a meeting between myself, another M student and
        both our supervisors.



        *With thanks to my supervisor, Prof Tommaso Milani who provided me with the
        terms and the reference.



        Lekker dag aan almal (Nice day to all) (smiley)

        Leoni



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Jim Fidelholtz
        Hi, Patricia, Well, I think (in Spanish) that Chicago (especially when pronounced [tshikaGo] a la español) IS a borrowing (from English). Interestingly, in
        Message 3 of 11 , Jun 14, 2011
        • 0 Attachment
          Hi, Patricia,

          Well, I think (in Spanish) that 'Chicago' (especially when pronounced
          [tshikaGo] a la espa�ol) IS a borrowing (from English). Interestingly, in
          English, it is pronounced [sh@kago], which (except for a nasal [a]) is
          virtually identical to the Miami pronunciation of the word meaning roughly
          'skunk place' (other Algonquianists derive it from 'skunk cabbage' or other
          stuff; don't believe it!). Btw, the word 'skunk' is also derived from the
          same Algonquian root. In English, Chicago is almost never pronounced with
          [tsh] (a daughter of mine goes to school there--I'll ask her to be sure, but
          none of *my* buddies pronounce it that way). It's a bit more problematic to
          characterize the 'English' pronunciation of Chicago in the middle of a
          sentence otherwise in Spanish (as a code switch or as a borrowing) in the
          speech of a full bilingual. I can see reasons in some circumstances for
          going either way, depending on the cognitive state of the speaker.

          Jim

          On Wed, Jun 8, 2011 at 11:36 AM, Patricia Torres
          <patritorres@...>wrote:

          > Karina, Jim, thanks a lot for adding new approaches to the debate.
          >
          > Jim, I'm glad you mentioned the phonological aspect. Several students
          > listed
          > "Chicago" as a borrowing and other wrote "spaghetti" when typing the audios
          > (instead of Spanish "espagueti") because "it is pronounced in English",
          > students said.
          >
          > Having said that, I cannot check now, but I am almost certain that in the
          > corpus (the TV show in Spanish but produced in Miami), tag phrases such as
          > "anyway" and "sorry" are pronounced following the phonological rules of
          > English -at the beginning or the end of a phrase in Spanish. Young people
          > here (Venezuela) from time to time use such tag phrases, but they
          > pronounce
          > them using Spanish phonemes (most evidently in the double 'r' in 'sorry').
          > Interesting, for their follow-up (try to determine whether Spanglish is
          > spreading to Latin America).
          >
          > Karina, none of the student has added a communicative dimension to the
          > debate. I'm going to mention it... to see what new ideas they propose.
          >
          > Best,
          >
          > Patricia
          >
          > On Tue, Jun 7, 2011 at 2:51 PM, Jim Fidelholtz <fidelholtz@...>
          > wrote:
          >
          > > Hi, All (Hola a todos),
          > >
          > > I'm very surprised that really no one seems to have mentioned the
          > > phonological aspects in this discussion of borrowings vs. code switching.
          > > The discussion has matured a bit since the topic was raised, oh, in the
          > > 1990s, if memory serves, but many of the same points have been raised.
          > >
          > > Specifically, consider the English word Bach (the composer). Anyone
          > > minimally 'culto' (American, which means pretty minimally ;-)> )
          > pronounces
          > > the name [bax] (NB: the [x] is virtually identical to the Mexican Spanish
          > > <j>), and this is true whether or not they have the slightest knowledge
          > of
          > > German. Now, in earlier discussions, various persons maintained that this
          > > was 'code-switching', but the facts presented in this paragraph indicate
          > > that that position is an absurdity, since (1) not all who have that
          > > pronunciation even know German and (2) German [x] is never the pure velar
          > > like the Mexican voiceless velar fricative, but is either further back
          > > (almost postvelar, as in [ba>x]) or almost palatal (prevelar, as in [i�]
          > > <ich> 'I'), depending on the preceding vowel. In the same vein, I would
          > > query how the putatively English word 'so' is pronounced in the example
          > > given. If it is [sow], then there could be a decent case that it is a
          > case
          > > of code switching. BUT if it pronounced [so] as in the expression 'so
          > pena
          > > de �', then it is a bona fide borrowing into Spanish. I have no doubt
          > that
          > > there could be intermediate cases, as in the early stages of borrowing,
          > as
          > > well.
          > >
          > > Just a couple of thoughts on the subject.
          > >
          > > Jim
          > >
          > > --
          > > James L. Fidelholtz
          > > Posgrado en Ciencias del Lenguaje
          > > Instituto de Ciencias Sociales y Humanidades
          > > Benem�rita Universidad Aut�noma de Puebla, M�XICO
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ------------------------------------
          > >
          > > To Post a message: code-switching @ yahoogroups.com
          > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
          > > code-switching-unsubscribe @ yahoogroups.com
          > > Web page: http//groups.yahoo.com/group/code-switchingYahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > To Post a message: code-switching @ yahoogroups.com
          > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
          > code-switching-unsubscribe @ yahoogroups.com
          > Web page: http//groups.yahoo.com/group/code-switchingYahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >


          --
          James L. Fidelholtz
          Posgrado en Ciencias del Lenguaje
          Instituto de Ciencias Sociales y Humanidades
          Benem�rita Universidad Aut�noma de Puebla, M�XICO


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Patricia Torres
          Thanks, Jim! The debate is becoming heated, as students find new concepts related to the topic (Leoni, thanks for metrolingualism !). They though the project
          Message 4 of 11 , Jun 15, 2011
          • 0 Attachment
            Thanks, Jim!

            The debate is becoming heated, as students find new concepts related to the
            topic (Leoni, thanks for "metrolingualism"!). They though the project would
            be easy! Somehow, like sorting cards...

            Patricia



            On Tue, Jun 14, 2011 at 11:44 PM, Jim Fidelholtz <fidelholtz@...>wrote:

            > Hi, Patricia,
            >
            > Well, I think (in Spanish) that 'Chicago' (especially when pronounced
            > [tshikaGo] a la español) IS a borrowing (from English). Interestingly, in
            > English, it is pronounced [sh@kago], which (except for a nasal [a]) is
            > virtually identical to the Miami pronunciation of the word meaning roughly
            > 'skunk place' (other Algonquianists derive it from 'skunk cabbage' or other
            > stuff; don't believe it!). Btw, the word 'skunk' is also derived from the
            > same Algonquian root. In English, Chicago is almost never pronounced with
            > [tsh] (a daughter of mine goes to school there--I'll ask her to be sure,
            > but
            > none of *my* buddies pronounce it that way). It's a bit more problematic to
            > characterize the 'English' pronunciation of Chicago in the middle of a
            > sentence otherwise in Spanish (as a code switch or as a borrowing) in the
            > speech of a full bilingual. I can see reasons in some circumstances for
            > going either way, depending on the cognitive state of the speaker.
            >
            > Jim
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.