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Re: Codeswitching in music

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  • Leoni Kotze
    Dear All Celco, what you are saying is just sooooo interesting. I am sitting here behind my computer and there are electrical impulses running up and down my
    Message 1 of 21 , Feb 26 10:39 PM
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      Dear All



      Celco, what you are saying is just sooooo interesting. I am sitting here
      behind my computer and there are electrical impulses running up and down my
      spine. How wonderful to discover areas of under-researched (for lack of a
      better word at the moment) areas! I am inspired! Again. But let me not sit
      here and make idle talk, let me complete my current Master's so that I can
      go full force into the interface (can I call it 'interface'?) between
      language and music.



      Keep those comments rolling, everybody! Isn't is just wonderful to glean
      insights from so many people across the globe?



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Georges Lüdi
      Dear All, I don t have an electronic copy of Jablonka s article. But you ll find the reference, a summary in English, and the author s address at the following
      Message 2 of 21 , Feb 27 8:31 AM
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        Dear All,

        I don't have an electronic copy of Jablonka's article. But you'll find the reference, a summary in English, and the author's address at the following URL:

        http://www.uni-siegen.de/lili/ausgaben/2007/lili148.html?lang=de#artikel8

        Georges
      • Celso Alvarez Cáccamo
        Leoni Kontze, Well, good luck with your Master and your research, I m glad this thread is being encouraging to you. As for research in the area (language
        Message 3 of 21 , Feb 28 7:59 AM
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          Leoni Kontze,

          Well, good luck with your Master and your research, I'm glad this thread is being encouraging to you.

          As for research in the area (language alternation and music), to be honest I don't know much about it. It is my impression that much remains to be said yet, but I am not up to developments in the field or specific bibliography. It is well known that languages present typical prosodic patterns in terms of accent patterns and length of intonational phrases. For example, apparently in Spanish eight-syllable phrases in daily speech are very common, and this would explain why also the octosyllable verse is typical of traditional, popular poetry. And let's remember that the first manifestations of poetry in many cultures are actually SONGS (work-related songs, while sawing or harvesting the fields, for example). So, there you have a relation between speech and music (see Jakobson's work).

          A second factor to examine, perhaps, is Gumperz's important observation (I don't remember exactly where in Discourse Strategies), which I believe hasn't received enough attention in terms of its implications for language alternation, is that while grammar and lexicon can be taught and learned formally, through second-language instruction, intonation and prosody in general are SUBconscious, as they are acquired as part of the socialization process, and you can't just "teach" or talk about a prosodic pattern without a lexical-grammatical basis (you can't "repeat" an intonational curve except by singing it). So, while it is well known that this subconscious nature of prosody plays a major role in misunderstandings in a SECOND language (Gumperz's own work), I believe that often it has been understood that in language alternation phenomena all that happens is that people combine LEXICAL items and GRAMMATICAL structures as pieces that could fit, like a puzzle. But, obviously, pieces don't fit in a vacuum, but they have to fit over a given underlying prosodic pattern which also carries interactional (pragmatic) meaning(s) among a wide range: matter-of-factness, irony, humor, disbelief, challenge, compliance, formality, informality, interest, cooperation, surprise, etc. etc. And all of this (forms and meanings) is acquired since very early in life (babies only a few months old are able to distinguish between "boring" and interesting conversations between adults, even if they don't understand anything; and mother-talk, precisely, hypercharacterizes prosodic patterns to make them more enjoyable to babies).

          Finally, there are recent discoveries in the origins of language that relate language ability more and more to musical abilities. It is not coincidental that the only two human species that had/have musical abilities, Homo Sapiens Neanderthalensis and Homo Sapiens Sapiens (us) also had/have the cognitive abilities and anatomical apparatus prepared for language (brain areas, central nervous system, the hyoid bone, etc., though it is not proven that Neanderthals had articulated language as we know it).

          So, you have an interesting topic there (language alternation and musical patterns) which, in my opinion, would require to look a little into questions such as the ones above.

          As for language alternation in today's music (Kelvin and others), my contribution is Manu Chao, a hip-hopish singer from Galizan origin based in France. Look him up, he's very good.

          Cheers!

          -celso
          Celso Alvarez Cáccamo

          A 2010/02/27, às 07:39, Leoni Kotze escreveu:

          > Dear All
          >
          > Celco, what you are saying is just sooooo interesting. I am sitting here
          > behind my computer and there are electrical impulses running up and down my
          > spine. How wonderful to discover areas of under-researched (for lack of a
          > better word at the moment) areas! I am inspired! Again. But let me not sit
          > here and make idle talk, let me complete my current Master's so that I can
          > go full force into the interface (can I call it 'interface'?) between
          > language and music.
          >
          > Keep those comments rolling, everybody! Isn't is just wonderful to glean
          > insights from so many people across the globe?
        • mostari hind
          dear all , Is there anybody who has a quantitative study about the number of tokens found for each item of insertion through the application of MLF model of
          Message 4 of 21 , Mar 1, 2010
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            dear all ,
            Is there anybody who has a quantitative study about the number of tokens found for each item of insertion through the application of MLF model of Myers-Scotton, i.e. is there any study of language  pairs on MLF model which counted the number of insertions of different categories ( N, V ADJ, etc) found from ML to EL and vice versa .
            I have counted the number of adjectives, nouns, adverbs, idioms etc in the case they are from the EL ( French ) inserted within  Algerian arabic as the ML ,and vice versa . it is important to have statistics in boh cases from ML to EL and vice versa .
            i am looking forward to reading from you
             
            all the best
            Dr Mostari
            Algeria




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Maria Eugenia Trillo
            Dr. Mostari, I used the MLF model by Myers-Scotton in the data analysis for my dissertation. It has not been published but you can find it filed through UMI
            Message 5 of 21 , Mar 1, 2010
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              Dr. Mostari,

              I used the MLF model by Myers-Scotton in the data analysis for my dissertation. It has not been published but you can find it filed through UMI (University of Michigan). My study indicated that women used more descriptives (adj & adverbs) than the male subjects. The subjects who "played" more with their two languages (Spanish/English) had almost exactly the same number of verbs in each of their discourses, ie. 48 Spanish verbs v. 51 English verbs in a 30 minutes narrative.

              is this what you are looking for?

              --Maria Eugenia Trillo, Ph.D.
              Associate Professor of Spanish
              Western New Mexico University
              Dept. of Humanities
              Silver City, NM 88062

               



              ________________________________
              From: mostari hind <hmostari@...>
              To: code-switching@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Mon, March 1, 2010 10:08:49 AM
              Subject: [code-switching] about the MLF model

               


              dear all ,
              Is there anybody who has a quantitative study about the number of tokens found for each item of insertion through the application of MLF model of Myers-Scotton, i.e. is there any study of language  pairs on MLF model which counted the number of insertions of different categories ( N, V ADJ, etc) found from ML to EL and vice versa .
              I have counted the number of adjectives, nouns, adverbs, idioms etc in the case they are from the EL ( French ) inserted within  Algerian arabic as the ML ,and vice versa . it is important to have statistics in boh cases from ML to EL and vice versa .
              i am looking forward to reading from you
               
              all the best
              Dr Mostari
              Algeria

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Sebba, Mark
              For those who have requested it recently, my review of this book has just been published online in Writing Systems Research and you can access it from the
              Message 6 of 21 , Mar 2, 2010
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                For those who have requested it recently, my review of this book has
                just been published online in Writing Systems Research and you can
                access it from the links below.
                But please note that it is not about code-switching at all, I merely
                mentioned it in response to a remark by Chad Nilep, who said that my
                approach to mixed-language texts reminded him of the Linguistic
                Landscapes approach.

                Mark

                Full Text:
                http://writsy.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/wsp006?ijkey=LzsRDfzeY
                vmRs6y&keytype=ref
                PDF:
                http://writsy.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/wsp006?ijkey=LzsRDfzeYvmRs6
                y&keytype=ref

                The full citation for the article is:
                Linguistic Landscapes: A Comparative Study of Urban Multilingualism in
                Tokyo Peter Backhaus.
                Mark Sebba
                Writing Systems Research 2010; doi: 10.1093/wsr/wsp006
              • mostari hind
                dear Dr Maria Eugenia Trillo , What i am looking is exactly how many adject, adv, verbs, nouns, idioms your respondents used from Spanish to english and vice
                Message 7 of 21 , Mar 2, 2010
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                  dear Dr Maria Eugenia Trillo ,
                  What i am looking is exactly how many adject, adv, verbs, nouns, idioms your respondents used from Spanish to english and vice versa , under the MLF model .
                   
                  do you have this kind of data . I could not get access to your thesis . Give me the exact link or send it to me by attachmenet PLZ .
                   
                  All the best
                  Dr Mostari
                  Algeria

                  --- On Tue, 3/2/10, Maria Eugenia Trillo <metrillo2002@...> wrote:


                  From: Maria Eugenia Trillo <metrillo2002@...>
                  Subject: Re: [code-switching] about the MLF model
                  To: code-switching@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Tuesday, March 2, 2010, 7:21 AM


                   



                  Dr. Mostari,

                  I used the MLF model by Myers-Scotton in the data analysis for my dissertation. It has not been published but you can find it filed through UMI (University of Michigan). My study indicated that women used more descriptives (adj & adverbs) than the male subjects. The subjects who "played" more with their two languages (Spanish/English) had almost exactly the same number of verbs in each of their discourses, ie. 48 Spanish verbs v. 51 English verbs in a 30 minutes narrative.

                  is this what you are looking for?

                  --Maria Eugenia Trillo, Ph.D.
                  Associate Professor of Spanish
                  Western New Mexico University
                  Dept. of Humanities
                  Silver City, NM 88062

                   

                  ____________ _________ _________ __
                  From: mostari hind <hmostari@yahoo. com>
                  To: code-switching@ yahoogroups. com
                  Sent: Mon, March 1, 2010 10:08:49 AM
                  Subject: [code-switching] about the MLF model

                   

                  dear all ,
                  Is there anybody who has a quantitative study about the number of tokens found for each item of insertion through the application of MLF model of Myers-Scotton, i.e. is there any study of language  pairs on MLF model which counted the number of insertions of different categories ( N, V ADJ, etc) found from ML to EL and vice versa .
                  I have counted the number of adjectives, nouns, adverbs, idioms etc in the case they are from the EL ( French ) inserted within  Algerian arabic as the ML ,and vice versa . it is important to have statistics in boh cases from ML to EL and vice versa .
                  i am looking forward to reading from you
                   
                  all the best
                  Dr Mostari
                  Algeria

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Maria Eugenia Trillo
                  Leoni, Celso et al, I agree with the exciting topic of prosodic elements used in code alternation and would like to share an anecdote. I wish I had had the
                  Message 8 of 21 , Mar 6, 2010
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                    Leoni, Celso et al,

                    I agree with the exciting topic of prosodic elements used in code alternation and would like to share an anecdote. I wish I had had the foresight to record my babies when they were in the babbling stage. Since their father was an English speaker and I spoke Spanish to them, both girls would "sing" their different languages--in--formation, depending on who their audience was. If they were addressing their father, their babbling would be slower and their tone and pitch would be a lower key. When addressing me or my mother, also a Spanish native speaker, the girls would speed up and elevate their tone. So in a sense, the babies were
                    "singing" a nascent English or Spanish.

                    The prosodic elements are a frustrating element for second-language learners and some heritage speakers of Spanish who can't 'hear' the correct pronunciation, they say. In fact, it is what celso is referring to, I believe, that frustrates the non-native speaker of a language.

                    Thank you for an interesting dialogue.

                    --Maria Eugenia Trillo,




                    ________________________________
                    From: Celso Alvarez Cáccamo <lxalvarz@...>
                    To: code-switching@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Sun, February 28, 2010 8:59:48 AM
                    Subject: Re: [code-switching] Re: Codeswitching in music

                     
                    Leoni Kontze,

                    Well, good luck with your Master and your research, I'm glad this thread is being encouraging to you.

                    As for research in the area (language alternation and music), to be honest I don't know much about it. It is my impression that much remains to be said yet, but I am not up to developments in the field or specific bibliography. It is well known that languages present typical prosodic patterns in terms of accent patterns and length of intonational phrases. For example, apparently in Spanish eight-syllable phrases in daily speech are very common, and this would explain why also the octosyllable verse is typical of traditional, popular poetry. And let's remember that the first manifestations of poetry in many cultures are actually SONGS (work-related songs, while sawing or harvesting the fields, for example). So, there you have a relation between speech and music (see Jakobson's work).

                    A second factor to examine, perhaps, is Gumperz's important observation (I don't remember exactly where in Discourse Strategies), which I believe hasn't received enough attention in terms of its implications for language alternation, is that while grammar and lexicon can be taught and learned formally, through second-language instruction, intonation and prosody in general are SUBconscious, as they are acquired as part of the socialization process, and you can't just "teach" or talk about a prosodic pattern without a lexical-grammatical basis (you can't "repeat" an intonational curve except by singing it). So, while it is well known that this subconscious nature of prosody plays a major role in misunderstandings in a SECOND language (Gumperz's own work), I believe that often it has been understood that in language alternation phenomena all that happens is that people combine LEXICAL items and GRAMMATICAL structures as pieces that could fit, like a puzzle.
                    But, obviously, pieces don't fit in a vacuum, but they have to fit over a given underlying prosodic pattern which also carries interactional (pragmatic) meaning(s) among a wide range: matter-of-factness, irony, humor, disbelief, challenge, compliance, formality, informality, interest, cooperation, surprise, etc. etc. And all of this (forms and meanings) is acquired since very early in life (babies only a few months old are able to distinguish between "boring" and interesting conversations between adults, even if they don't understand anything; and mother-talk, precisely, hypercharacterizes prosodic patterns to make them more enjoyable to babies).

                    Finally, there are recent discoveries in the origins of language that relate language ability more and more to musical abilities. It is not coincidental that the only two human species that had/have musical abilities, Homo Sapiens Neanderthalensis and Homo Sapiens Sapiens (us) also had/have the cognitive abilities and anatomical apparatus prepared for language (brain areas, central nervous system, the hyoid bone, etc., though it is not proven that Neanderthals had articulated language as we know it).

                    So, you have an interesting topic there (language alternation and musical patterns) which, in my opinion, would require to look a little into questions such as the ones above.

                    As for language alternation in today's music (Kelvin and others), my contribution is Manu Chao, a hip-hopish singer from Galizan origin based in France. Look him up, he's very good.

                    Cheers!

                    -celso
                    Celso Alvarez Cáccamo

                    A 2010/02/27, às 07:39, Leoni Kotze escreveu:

                    > Dear All
                    >
                    > Celco, what you are saying is just sooooo interesting. I am sitting here
                    > behind my computer and there are electrical impulses running up and down my
                    > spine. How wonderful to discover areas of under-researched (for lack of a
                    > better word at the moment) areas! I am inspired! Again. But let me not sit
                    > here and make idle talk, let me complete my current Master's so that I can
                    > go full force into the interface (can I call it 'interface'? ) between
                    > language and music.
                    >
                    > Keep those comments rolling, everybody! Isn't is just wonderful to glean
                    > insights from so many people across the globe?







                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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