Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

R: [code-switching] Re: Codeswitching in music

Expand Messages
  • Sergio Pasquandrea
    Leoni s post is enormously interesting to me, since I, too, am a musician, and am currently interested in a strictly related topic (i.e., the relationship
    Message 1 of 21 , Feb 26 8:13 AM
    • 0 Attachment
      Leoni's post is enormously interesting to me, since I, too, am a musician, and am currently interested in a strictly related topic (i.e., the relationship between music and literature, and in particular between jazz and poetry, mainly seen from a rhythmic point of view).
      An interesting remark that comes to my mind is that many Italian singers find it difficult to adapt Italian prosody to modern genres such as pop, rock or rap, and often employ English, or even Italian dialects. That may seem surprising, because Italian is usually considered a very "musical language", but it has much to do with Italian accent and syllable structure.
      To make a long story short, Italian strongly favours throcaic endings (such as MAre, SOle, anDAre, diCIAmo, etc.), and this can be a problem when musical phrases end on a strong beat. Moreover, Italian words are often quite long (2 or 3 syllables, or even more), and this may also be troublesome in music, especially in some styles.
      That's why Italian pop, or rock, and especially rap musicians sometimes use English, or dialects, or a mix of many languages.
      An example is Pino Daniele, a singer who was very popular in the 80's. He is from Naples, and is heavily influenced by blues, jazz, and black music in general. In his songs, he used a very peculiar mixing of Italian, English and Neapolitan dialect (and, in some cases, even Spanish).


      --- Ven 26/2/10, Leoni Kotze <leoni@...> ha scritto:

      Da: Leoni Kotze <leoni@...>
      Oggetto: [code-switching] Re: Codeswitching in music
      A: code-switching@yahoogroups.com
      Data: Venerdì 26 febbraio 2010, 08:29







       









      Dear All



      I must also admit that Kelvin's topic is very exciting. I've wanting to

      write about the similarities between music and language for ages. In fact,

      I delivered a student paper at the South African Linguistic Association' s

      conference way back in 1998 on this during my second year at university. I

      am a classically trained musician and am als working on CS.



      I am writing down some of my ideas about language and music, and CS here

      below. These are ideas I've been playing around with in my head for years.

      I've done no research on this and my claims are therefore unsubstantiated.

      But I hope it opens up a new are of academic research, one which I have been

      jealously (and selfishly !!!) guarding for some time. Smiley here.



      I believe that each language has a unique rhythmic pattern and I am of the

      opinion that many of our word choices are (subconsciously) chosen because

      they fit the rhythmic pattern. For example: An Afrikaans word for 'chips'

      exists in the language, i.e. 'skyfies' with the word stress on SKY-fies.

      But very few Afrikaans speaking people use this word. The English word

      'chips' are used in the majority of cases. I believe (or let me rather say,

      suspect) that 'chips' is favoured above 'skyfies' because of its rhythmic

      pattern. There is a distinct rhythmic difference between saying in

      Afrikaans: 'fish and chips' (in actual speech pronounced 'fishenchips' ) and

      'vis en skyfies'.



      I also know, I dare to state this categorically, that word stress will take

      precedence over the stress dictated by western music. What I am trying to

      say here is: Western classical music has three main types of rhythmic

      patterns, either two, three of four defined 'beats'. The first beat is

      always the strongest beat. In the four beat rhythm, the third beat gets

      some stress, but less than the first beat. If I try to visually portray it

      here, it will look something like this:



      ONE two, ONE, two, ONE two (etc)



      ONE two three, ONE two three, ONE two three (etc)



      ONE two Three four, ONE two Three four, ONE two Three four, ONE two Three

      four (etc)



      What this means for the overlap between language and music, is that the word

      stress in a pollysyllabic word has to comply with the rhythmic pattern of

      the music. And the word stress takes precedence, as I've said. Things are

      getting rather technical at this point and further explanation will take too

      much space and time. Suffice it to say that there is an enormous overlap

      between musical aspects and prosodic features.



      OK, I am getting carried away. What does this have to do with CS? Simply

      this: It would be very interesting to see which words realize from/in which

      codes (languages) and how they fit the musical rhythmic pattern. It would

      also be interesting to see how the music might be adapted to accommodate

      prosodic features of the word and/or language in question.



      Phew! Was wonderful to talk about this. Kelvin, if you need a musician's

      input I would be more than willing to get involved in you study.



      I wish you all the best!



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

























      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Leoni Kotze
      Dear All Celco, what you are saying is just sooooo interesting. I am sitting here behind my computer and there are electrical impulses running up and down my
      Message 2 of 21 , Feb 26 10:39 PM
      • 0 Attachment
        Dear All



        Celco, what you are saying is just sooooo interesting. I am sitting here
        behind my computer and there are electrical impulses running up and down my
        spine. How wonderful to discover areas of under-researched (for lack of a
        better word at the moment) areas! I am inspired! Again. But let me not sit
        here and make idle talk, let me complete my current Master's so that I can
        go full force into the interface (can I call it 'interface'?) between
        language and music.



        Keep those comments rolling, everybody! Isn't is just wonderful to glean
        insights from so many people across the globe?



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Georges Lüdi
        Dear All, I don t have an electronic copy of Jablonka s article. But you ll find the reference, a summary in English, and the author s address at the following
        Message 3 of 21 , Feb 27 8:31 AM
        • 0 Attachment
          Dear All,

          I don't have an electronic copy of Jablonka's article. But you'll find the reference, a summary in English, and the author's address at the following URL:

          http://www.uni-siegen.de/lili/ausgaben/2007/lili148.html?lang=de#artikel8

          Georges
        • Celso Alvarez Cáccamo
          Leoni Kontze, Well, good luck with your Master and your research, I m glad this thread is being encouraging to you. As for research in the area (language
          Message 4 of 21 , Feb 28 7:59 AM
          • 0 Attachment
            Leoni Kontze,

            Well, good luck with your Master and your research, I'm glad this thread is being encouraging to you.

            As for research in the area (language alternation and music), to be honest I don't know much about it. It is my impression that much remains to be said yet, but I am not up to developments in the field or specific bibliography. It is well known that languages present typical prosodic patterns in terms of accent patterns and length of intonational phrases. For example, apparently in Spanish eight-syllable phrases in daily speech are very common, and this would explain why also the octosyllable verse is typical of traditional, popular poetry. And let's remember that the first manifestations of poetry in many cultures are actually SONGS (work-related songs, while sawing or harvesting the fields, for example). So, there you have a relation between speech and music (see Jakobson's work).

            A second factor to examine, perhaps, is Gumperz's important observation (I don't remember exactly where in Discourse Strategies), which I believe hasn't received enough attention in terms of its implications for language alternation, is that while grammar and lexicon can be taught and learned formally, through second-language instruction, intonation and prosody in general are SUBconscious, as they are acquired as part of the socialization process, and you can't just "teach" or talk about a prosodic pattern without a lexical-grammatical basis (you can't "repeat" an intonational curve except by singing it). So, while it is well known that this subconscious nature of prosody plays a major role in misunderstandings in a SECOND language (Gumperz's own work), I believe that often it has been understood that in language alternation phenomena all that happens is that people combine LEXICAL items and GRAMMATICAL structures as pieces that could fit, like a puzzle. But, obviously, pieces don't fit in a vacuum, but they have to fit over a given underlying prosodic pattern which also carries interactional (pragmatic) meaning(s) among a wide range: matter-of-factness, irony, humor, disbelief, challenge, compliance, formality, informality, interest, cooperation, surprise, etc. etc. And all of this (forms and meanings) is acquired since very early in life (babies only a few months old are able to distinguish between "boring" and interesting conversations between adults, even if they don't understand anything; and mother-talk, precisely, hypercharacterizes prosodic patterns to make them more enjoyable to babies).

            Finally, there are recent discoveries in the origins of language that relate language ability more and more to musical abilities. It is not coincidental that the only two human species that had/have musical abilities, Homo Sapiens Neanderthalensis and Homo Sapiens Sapiens (us) also had/have the cognitive abilities and anatomical apparatus prepared for language (brain areas, central nervous system, the hyoid bone, etc., though it is not proven that Neanderthals had articulated language as we know it).

            So, you have an interesting topic there (language alternation and musical patterns) which, in my opinion, would require to look a little into questions such as the ones above.

            As for language alternation in today's music (Kelvin and others), my contribution is Manu Chao, a hip-hopish singer from Galizan origin based in France. Look him up, he's very good.

            Cheers!

            -celso
            Celso Alvarez Cáccamo

            A 2010/02/27, às 07:39, Leoni Kotze escreveu:

            > Dear All
            >
            > Celco, what you are saying is just sooooo interesting. I am sitting here
            > behind my computer and there are electrical impulses running up and down my
            > spine. How wonderful to discover areas of under-researched (for lack of a
            > better word at the moment) areas! I am inspired! Again. But let me not sit
            > here and make idle talk, let me complete my current Master's so that I can
            > go full force into the interface (can I call it 'interface'?) between
            > language and music.
            >
            > Keep those comments rolling, everybody! Isn't is just wonderful to glean
            > insights from so many people across the globe?
          • mostari hind
            dear all , Is there anybody who has a quantitative study about the number of tokens found for each item of insertion through the application of MLF model of
            Message 5 of 21 , Mar 1, 2010
            • 0 Attachment
              dear all ,
              Is there anybody who has a quantitative study about the number of tokens found for each item of insertion through the application of MLF model of Myers-Scotton, i.e. is there any study of language  pairs on MLF model which counted the number of insertions of different categories ( N, V ADJ, etc) found from ML to EL and vice versa .
              I have counted the number of adjectives, nouns, adverbs, idioms etc in the case they are from the EL ( French ) inserted within  Algerian arabic as the ML ,and vice versa . it is important to have statistics in boh cases from ML to EL and vice versa .
              i am looking forward to reading from you
               
              all the best
              Dr Mostari
              Algeria




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Maria Eugenia Trillo
              Dr. Mostari, I used the MLF model by Myers-Scotton in the data analysis for my dissertation. It has not been published but you can find it filed through UMI
              Message 6 of 21 , Mar 1, 2010
              • 0 Attachment
                Dr. Mostari,

                I used the MLF model by Myers-Scotton in the data analysis for my dissertation. It has not been published but you can find it filed through UMI (University of Michigan). My study indicated that women used more descriptives (adj & adverbs) than the male subjects. The subjects who "played" more with their two languages (Spanish/English) had almost exactly the same number of verbs in each of their discourses, ie. 48 Spanish verbs v. 51 English verbs in a 30 minutes narrative.

                is this what you are looking for?

                --Maria Eugenia Trillo, Ph.D.
                Associate Professor of Spanish
                Western New Mexico University
                Dept. of Humanities
                Silver City, NM 88062

                 



                ________________________________
                From: mostari hind <hmostari@...>
                To: code-switching@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Mon, March 1, 2010 10:08:49 AM
                Subject: [code-switching] about the MLF model

                 


                dear all ,
                Is there anybody who has a quantitative study about the number of tokens found for each item of insertion through the application of MLF model of Myers-Scotton, i.e. is there any study of language  pairs on MLF model which counted the number of insertions of different categories ( N, V ADJ, etc) found from ML to EL and vice versa .
                I have counted the number of adjectives, nouns, adverbs, idioms etc in the case they are from the EL ( French ) inserted within  Algerian arabic as the ML ,and vice versa . it is important to have statistics in boh cases from ML to EL and vice versa .
                i am looking forward to reading from you
                 
                all the best
                Dr Mostari
                Algeria

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Sebba, Mark
                For those who have requested it recently, my review of this book has just been published online in Writing Systems Research and you can access it from the
                Message 7 of 21 , Mar 2, 2010
                • 0 Attachment
                  For those who have requested it recently, my review of this book has
                  just been published online in Writing Systems Research and you can
                  access it from the links below.
                  But please note that it is not about code-switching at all, I merely
                  mentioned it in response to a remark by Chad Nilep, who said that my
                  approach to mixed-language texts reminded him of the Linguistic
                  Landscapes approach.

                  Mark

                  Full Text:
                  http://writsy.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/wsp006?ijkey=LzsRDfzeY
                  vmRs6y&keytype=ref
                  PDF:
                  http://writsy.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/wsp006?ijkey=LzsRDfzeYvmRs6
                  y&keytype=ref

                  The full citation for the article is:
                  Linguistic Landscapes: A Comparative Study of Urban Multilingualism in
                  Tokyo Peter Backhaus.
                  Mark Sebba
                  Writing Systems Research 2010; doi: 10.1093/wsr/wsp006
                • mostari hind
                  dear Dr Maria Eugenia Trillo , What i am looking is exactly how many adject, adv, verbs, nouns, idioms your respondents used from Spanish to english and vice
                  Message 8 of 21 , Mar 2, 2010
                  • 0 Attachment
                    dear Dr Maria Eugenia Trillo ,
                    What i am looking is exactly how many adject, adv, verbs, nouns, idioms your respondents used from Spanish to english and vice versa , under the MLF model .
                     
                    do you have this kind of data . I could not get access to your thesis . Give me the exact link or send it to me by attachmenet PLZ .
                     
                    All the best
                    Dr Mostari
                    Algeria

                    --- On Tue, 3/2/10, Maria Eugenia Trillo <metrillo2002@...> wrote:


                    From: Maria Eugenia Trillo <metrillo2002@...>
                    Subject: Re: [code-switching] about the MLF model
                    To: code-switching@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Tuesday, March 2, 2010, 7:21 AM


                     



                    Dr. Mostari,

                    I used the MLF model by Myers-Scotton in the data analysis for my dissertation. It has not been published but you can find it filed through UMI (University of Michigan). My study indicated that women used more descriptives (adj & adverbs) than the male subjects. The subjects who "played" more with their two languages (Spanish/English) had almost exactly the same number of verbs in each of their discourses, ie. 48 Spanish verbs v. 51 English verbs in a 30 minutes narrative.

                    is this what you are looking for?

                    --Maria Eugenia Trillo, Ph.D.
                    Associate Professor of Spanish
                    Western New Mexico University
                    Dept. of Humanities
                    Silver City, NM 88062

                     

                    ____________ _________ _________ __
                    From: mostari hind <hmostari@yahoo. com>
                    To: code-switching@ yahoogroups. com
                    Sent: Mon, March 1, 2010 10:08:49 AM
                    Subject: [code-switching] about the MLF model

                     

                    dear all ,
                    Is there anybody who has a quantitative study about the number of tokens found for each item of insertion through the application of MLF model of Myers-Scotton, i.e. is there any study of language  pairs on MLF model which counted the number of insertions of different categories ( N, V ADJ, etc) found from ML to EL and vice versa .
                    I have counted the number of adjectives, nouns, adverbs, idioms etc in the case they are from the EL ( French ) inserted within  Algerian arabic as the ML ,and vice versa . it is important to have statistics in boh cases from ML to EL and vice versa .
                    i am looking forward to reading from you
                     
                    all the best
                    Dr Mostari
                    Algeria

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Maria Eugenia Trillo
                    Leoni, Celso et al, I agree with the exciting topic of prosodic elements used in code alternation and would like to share an anecdote. I wish I had had the
                    Message 9 of 21 , Mar 6, 2010
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Leoni, Celso et al,

                      I agree with the exciting topic of prosodic elements used in code alternation and would like to share an anecdote. I wish I had had the foresight to record my babies when they were in the babbling stage. Since their father was an English speaker and I spoke Spanish to them, both girls would "sing" their different languages--in--formation, depending on who their audience was. If they were addressing their father, their babbling would be slower and their tone and pitch would be a lower key. When addressing me or my mother, also a Spanish native speaker, the girls would speed up and elevate their tone. So in a sense, the babies were
                      "singing" a nascent English or Spanish.

                      The prosodic elements are a frustrating element for second-language learners and some heritage speakers of Spanish who can't 'hear' the correct pronunciation, they say. In fact, it is what celso is referring to, I believe, that frustrates the non-native speaker of a language.

                      Thank you for an interesting dialogue.

                      --Maria Eugenia Trillo,




                      ________________________________
                      From: Celso Alvarez Cáccamo <lxalvarz@...>
                      To: code-switching@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Sun, February 28, 2010 8:59:48 AM
                      Subject: Re: [code-switching] Re: Codeswitching in music

                       
                      Leoni Kontze,

                      Well, good luck with your Master and your research, I'm glad this thread is being encouraging to you.

                      As for research in the area (language alternation and music), to be honest I don't know much about it. It is my impression that much remains to be said yet, but I am not up to developments in the field or specific bibliography. It is well known that languages present typical prosodic patterns in terms of accent patterns and length of intonational phrases. For example, apparently in Spanish eight-syllable phrases in daily speech are very common, and this would explain why also the octosyllable verse is typical of traditional, popular poetry. And let's remember that the first manifestations of poetry in many cultures are actually SONGS (work-related songs, while sawing or harvesting the fields, for example). So, there you have a relation between speech and music (see Jakobson's work).

                      A second factor to examine, perhaps, is Gumperz's important observation (I don't remember exactly where in Discourse Strategies), which I believe hasn't received enough attention in terms of its implications for language alternation, is that while grammar and lexicon can be taught and learned formally, through second-language instruction, intonation and prosody in general are SUBconscious, as they are acquired as part of the socialization process, and you can't just "teach" or talk about a prosodic pattern without a lexical-grammatical basis (you can't "repeat" an intonational curve except by singing it). So, while it is well known that this subconscious nature of prosody plays a major role in misunderstandings in a SECOND language (Gumperz's own work), I believe that often it has been understood that in language alternation phenomena all that happens is that people combine LEXICAL items and GRAMMATICAL structures as pieces that could fit, like a puzzle.
                      But, obviously, pieces don't fit in a vacuum, but they have to fit over a given underlying prosodic pattern which also carries interactional (pragmatic) meaning(s) among a wide range: matter-of-factness, irony, humor, disbelief, challenge, compliance, formality, informality, interest, cooperation, surprise, etc. etc. And all of this (forms and meanings) is acquired since very early in life (babies only a few months old are able to distinguish between "boring" and interesting conversations between adults, even if they don't understand anything; and mother-talk, precisely, hypercharacterizes prosodic patterns to make them more enjoyable to babies).

                      Finally, there are recent discoveries in the origins of language that relate language ability more and more to musical abilities. It is not coincidental that the only two human species that had/have musical abilities, Homo Sapiens Neanderthalensis and Homo Sapiens Sapiens (us) also had/have the cognitive abilities and anatomical apparatus prepared for language (brain areas, central nervous system, the hyoid bone, etc., though it is not proven that Neanderthals had articulated language as we know it).

                      So, you have an interesting topic there (language alternation and musical patterns) which, in my opinion, would require to look a little into questions such as the ones above.

                      As for language alternation in today's music (Kelvin and others), my contribution is Manu Chao, a hip-hopish singer from Galizan origin based in France. Look him up, he's very good.

                      Cheers!

                      -celso
                      Celso Alvarez Cáccamo

                      A 2010/02/27, às 07:39, Leoni Kotze escreveu:

                      > Dear All
                      >
                      > Celco, what you are saying is just sooooo interesting. I am sitting here
                      > behind my computer and there are electrical impulses running up and down my
                      > spine. How wonderful to discover areas of under-researched (for lack of a
                      > better word at the moment) areas! I am inspired! Again. But let me not sit
                      > here and make idle talk, let me complete my current Master's so that I can
                      > go full force into the interface (can I call it 'interface'? ) between
                      > language and music.
                      >
                      > Keep those comments rolling, everybody! Isn't is just wonderful to glean
                      > insights from so many people across the globe?







                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.