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Re: Hear one, respond in other, happily converse

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  • James_L._Fidelholtz
    Hi, Don, Just a couple of personal experiences to add to the bibliography and theoretical comments you have already been given: On sabbatical in the States, I
    Message 1 of 14 , Feb 15 7:40 AM
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      Hi, Don,

      Just a couple of personal experiences to add to the bibliography and
      theoretical comments you have already been given:

      On sabbatical in the States, I met an Italian linguist invited to Vanderbilt
      U. We began communicating in English, but I had (a little) trouble
      understanding his rather accented English, and he had (some) trouble
      understanding (even) my leveled, Mid-Western English. I am fluent in Spanish
      (which he had studied a little bit in Italy), and had traveled some in Italy
      (I knew how to say 'due cinquanta' (sp?), since when I was there that was
      what everything seemed to cost). So I spoke in Spanish and he spoke in
      Italian, and we only rarely had to stop to clarify some misunderstanding.

      On another occasion, I was in Poland on a Fulbright. After two years there I
      was pretty fluent in Polish, and went to teach English for two weeks in
      Czechoslovakia (this was the 70s). I found that Polish was almost adequate
      for communicating with shopkeepers there (Prague & Olomouc). I was even able
      to buy 'menaszki' (3-tiered [usually porcelainized] metal lunch containers)
      which were a necessity in Poland, but which I had been unable to find there,
      all the negotiation carried out in Polish (by me--aided by a dictionary and
      possibly a Berlitz manual) and Czech (by the monolingual shopkeepers).

      Also, always remember what someone mentioned: accommodation is *always* a
      very natural and strong human tendency in communication, be it
      interdialectal or interlingual, and of course this is especially true when
      the interlocutors have *some* knowledge of the other language.

      Jim


      Don Osborn escribió:

      > I've a really basic linguistic question (I think): what does one call
      > the situation where two speakers communicate each in their own tongue
      > but understand each other's speech? It's not codeswitching as I
      > understand the term, since each speaker is more or less consistently
      > using one tongue.
      >
      > Over the years I often ran into situations where people would say that
      > they understood ("hear") another tongue, but couldn't speak it. I have
      > only rarely witnessed exchanges on this basis (at least where I could
      > identify that each conversants was pretty much consistently using
      > something different from the other), but read about it in the case of
      > Ndonga and Kwanyama in Namibia (these are very close, like dialects of
      > the same language, Oshiwambo).

      ...

      James L. Fidelholtz
      Posgrado en Ciencias del Lenguaje, ICSyH
      Benemérita Universidad Autónoma de Puebla MÉXICO
    • James_L._Fidelholtz
      ... James L. Fidelholtz Posgrado en Ciencias del Lenguaje, ICSyH Benemérita Universidad Autónoma de Puebla MÉXICO
      Message 2 of 14 , Feb 15 7:58 AM
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        Don Osborn escribió:

        > I've a really basic linguistic question (I think): what does one call
        > the situation where two speakers communicate each in their own tongue
        > but understand each other's speech? It's not codeswitching as I
        > understand the term, since each speaker is more or less consistently
        > using one tongue.
        >
        > Over the years I often ran into situations where people would say that
        > they understood ("hear") another tongue, but couldn't speak it. I have
        > only rarely witnessed exchanges on this basis (at least where I could
        > identify that each conversants was pretty much consistently using
        > something different from the other), but read about it in the case of
        > Ndonga and Kwanyama in Namibia (these are very close, like dialects of
        > the same language, Oshiwambo).
        >
        > TIA for any info.
        >
        > Don Osborn
        >
        >
        >
        > To Post a message: code-switching @ yahoogroups.com
        > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
        > code-switching-unsubscribe @ yahoogroups.com
        > Web page: http//groups.yahoo.com/group/code-switching
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >



        James L. Fidelholtz
        Posgrado en Ciencias del Lenguaje, ICSyH
        Benemérita Universidad Autónoma de Puebla MÉXICO
      • sergio pasquandrea
        I had a similar experience this summer in Denmark, where I met a guy from Chile that had many troubles in speaking and understanding English: so I spoke
        Message 3 of 14 , Feb 15 8:06 AM
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          I had a similar experience this summer in Denmark, where I met a guy from Chile that had many troubles in speaking and understanding English: so I spoke Italian and he spoke Spanish and we could easily understand each other.


          "James_L._Fidelholtz" <jfidel@...> ha scritto:
          Hi, Don,

          Just a couple of personal experiences to add to the bibliography and
          theoretical comments you have already been given:

          On sabbatical in the States, I met an Italian linguist invited to Vanderbilt
          U. We began communicating in English, but I had (a little) trouble
          understanding his rather accented English, and he had (some) trouble
          understanding (even) my leveled, Mid-Western English. I am fluent in Spanish
          (which he had studied a little bit in Italy), and had traveled some in Italy
          (I knew how to say 'due cinquanta' (sp?), since when I was there that was
          what everything seemed to cost). So I spoke in Spanish and he spoke in
          Italian, and we only rarely had to stop to clarify some misunderstanding.

          On another occasion, I was in Poland on a Fulbright. After two years there I
          was pretty fluent in Polish, and went to teach English for two weeks in
          Czechoslovakia (this was the 70s). I found that Polish was almost adequate
          for communicating with shopkeepers there (Prague & Olomouc). I was even able
          to buy 'menaszki' (3-tiered [usually porcelainized] metal lunch containers)
          which were a necessity in Poland, but which I had been unable to find there,
          all the negotiation carried out in Polish (by me--aided by a dictionary and
          possibly a Berlitz manual) and Czech (by the monolingual shopkeepers).

          Also, always remember what someone mentioned: accommodation is *always* a
          very natural and strong human tendency in communication, be it
          interdialectal or interlingual, and of course this is especially true when
          the interlocutors have *some* knowledge of the other language.

          Jim

          Don Osborn escribió:

          > I've a really basic linguistic question (I think): what does one call
          > the situation where two speakers communicate each in their own tongue
          > but understand each other's speech? It's not codeswitching as I
          > understand the term, since each speaker is more or less consistently
          > using one tongue.
          >
          > Over the years I often ran into situations where people would say that
          > they understood ("hear") another tongue, but couldn't speak it. I have
          > only rarely witnessed exchanges on this basis (at least where I could
          > identify that each conversants was pretty much consistently using
          > something different from the other), but read about it in the case of
          > Ndonga and Kwanyama in Namibia (these are very close, like dialects of
          > the same language, Oshiwambo).

          ...

          James L. Fidelholtz
          Posgrado en Ciencias del Lenguaje, ICSyH
          Benemérita Universidad Autónoma de Puebla MÉXICO





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        • Ian Wilson
          Sorry for responding so late to this thread. I don t check the list very often but just noticed the question now. I believe the term for this phenomenon is
          Message 4 of 14 , Feb 25 6:10 PM
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            Sorry for responding so late to this thread. I don't check the list
            very often but just noticed the question now. I believe the term for
            this phenomenon is "dilingual discourse". Carolyn Johnson and I used
            the term in our 2002 IJB paper ("Phonetic evidence for early language
            differentiation: Research issues and some preliminary data".
            International Journal of Bilingualism 6: 271-289). At that time, we
            didn't know the term had been used before by Saville-Troike in her
            1987 Linguistics paper ("Dilingual discourse: The negotiation of
            meaning without a common code". Linguistics 25: 81-106).

            Note, however, that the term "dilingual" is not very common. A Google
            search on the word yields only about 100 websites that contain it.
            Compare that to the word "bilingual", which yields 26,000,000 websites!

            Sincerely,
            Ian Wilson
            University of Aizu
            <http://www.u-aizu.ac.jp/~wilson>
          • Marian Sloboda
            The different prefixation of di-lingual reminded me that, in the Czechoslovak (later on Czech and Slovak) linguistics, there has been a special term used
            Message 5 of 14 , Feb 26 1:07 AM
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              The different prefixation of "di-lingual" reminded me that, in the
              Czechoslovak (later on Czech and Slovak) linguistics, there has been a
              special term used since the 1970s(?) for the type of bilingual
              communication in which everyone uses their own respective language and yet
              understand each other (it referred usually to communication between Czechs
              and Slovaks in the Czechoslovak context). The term is "dvojjazykovost", in
              contrast to "dvojjazycnost" (bilingualism). That is, different suffix is
              used. The Slovak linguist Juraj Dolnik uses in correspondence to this the
              German word "Bilingualismus" (in contrast to "Bilinguismus") in his 'Der
              slowakisch-tschechische Bilingualismus' (in Stefanik, J. (ed.)
              Bilingvizmus: minulost, pritomnost a buducnost. Bratislava: Academic
              Electronic Press, 2002).
              Best regards,
              Marian Sloboda


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Ian Wilson" <wilson@...>
              To: <code-switching@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 3:10 AM
              Subject: [code-switching] Re:Hear one, respond in other, happily converse


              > Sorry for responding so late to this thread. I don't check the list
              > very often but just noticed the question now. I believe the term for
              > this phenomenon is "dilingual discourse". Carolyn Johnson and I used
              > the term in our 2002 IJB paper ("Phonetic evidence for early language
              > differentiation: Research issues and some preliminary data".
              > International Journal of Bilingualism 6: 271-289). At that time, we
              > didn't know the term had been used before by Saville-Troike in her
              > 1987 Linguistics paper ("Dilingual discourse: The negotiation of
              > meaning without a common code". Linguistics 25: 81-106).
              >
              > Note, however, that the term "dilingual" is not very common. A Google
              > search on the word yields only about 100 websites that contain it.
              > Compare that to the word "bilingual", which yields 26,000,000 websites!
              >
              > Sincerely,
              > Ian Wilson
              > University of Aizu
              > <http://www.u-aizu.ac.jp/~wilson>
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > To Post a message: code-switching @ yahoogroups.com
              > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
              > code-switching-unsubscribe @ yahoogroups.com
              > Web page: http//groups.yahoo.com/group/code-switching
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
            • Harold F. Schiffman
              If this is the preferred term, where did I get mutual passive bilingualism? It s true that if I google this term, some of my own web pages come up near the
              Message 6 of 14 , Feb 26 5:42 AM
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                If this is the preferred term, where did I get "mutual passive
                bilingualism?" It's true that if I google this term, some of my own web
                pages come up near the top, but there are other, older ones that seem to
                have used it earlier. Is the term passe?

                Hal Schiffman


                On Mon, 26 Feb 2007, Ian Wilson wrote:

                > Sorry for responding so late to this thread. I don't check the list
                > very often but just noticed the question now. I believe the term for
                > this phenomenon is "dilingual discourse". Carolyn Johnson and I used
                > the term in our 2002 IJB paper ("Phonetic evidence for early language
                > differentiation: Research issues and some preliminary data".
                > International Journal of Bilingualism 6: 271-289). At that time, we
                > didn't know the term had been used before by Saville-Troike in her
                > 1987 Linguistics paper ("Dilingual discourse: The negotiation of
                > meaning without a common code". Linguistics 25: 81-106).
                >
                > Note, however, that the term "dilingual" is not very common. A Google
                > search on the word yields only about 100 websites that contain it.
                > Compare that to the word "bilingual", which yields 26,000,000 websites!
                >
                > Sincerely,
                > Ian Wilson
                > University of Aizu
                > <http://www.u-aizu.ac.jp/~wilson>
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > To Post a message: code-switching @ yahoogroups.com
                > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                > code-switching-unsubscribe @ yahoogroups.com
                > Web page: http//groups.yahoo.com/group/code-switching
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • ianlwilson
                According to Baetens Beardsmore (1986) Bilingualism: Basic principles (2nd edition) , the term receptive bilingualism is preferred over passive
                Message 7 of 14 , Feb 27 6:00 PM
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                  According to Baetens Beardsmore (1986) "Bilingualism: Basic principles (2nd edition)", the
                  term "receptive bilingualism" is preferred over "passive bilingualism". The latter term "is
                  not favoured by specialists involved in language learning because it is felt that any
                  language decoding activity implies active neurological processes" (p.16). At any rate, these
                  terms (including "mutual passive bilingualism") seem to describe a person's/people's
                  bilingual ability, not the type of discourse that results.

                  --- In code-switching@yahoogroups.com, "Harold F. Schiffman" <haroldfs@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > If this is the preferred term, where did I get "mutual passive
                  > bilingualism?" It's true that if I google this term, some of my own web
                  > pages come up near the top, but there are other, older ones that seem to
                  > have used it earlier. Is the term passe?
                  >
                  > Hal Schiffman
                  >
                  >
                  > On Mon, 26 Feb 2007, Ian Wilson wrote:
                  >
                  > > Sorry for responding so late to this thread. I don't check the list
                  > > very often but just noticed the question now. I believe the term for
                  > > this phenomenon is "dilingual discourse". Carolyn Johnson and I used
                  > > the term in our 2002 IJB paper ("Phonetic evidence for early language
                  > > differentiation: Research issues and some preliminary data".
                  > > International Journal of Bilingualism 6: 271-289). At that time, we
                  > > didn't know the term had been used before by Saville-Troike in her
                  > > 1987 Linguistics paper ("Dilingual discourse: The negotiation of
                  > > meaning without a common code". Linguistics 25: 81-106).
                  > >
                  > > Note, however, that the term "dilingual" is not very common. A Google
                  > > search on the word yields only about 100 websites that contain it.
                  > > Compare that to the word "bilingual", which yields 26,000,000 websites!
                  > >
                  > > Sincerely,
                  > > Ian Wilson
                  > > University of Aizu
                  > > <http://www.u-aizu.ac.jp/~wilson>
                • Harold F. Schiffman
                  If receptive bilingualism is preferred over passive bilingualism it extends the notion of bilingualism from that of highly-developed active skills in a
                  Message 8 of 14 , Feb 28 7:33 AM
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                    If "receptive bilingualism" is preferred over "passive bilingualism" it
                    extends the notion of bilingualism from that of highly-developed active
                    skills in a language to minimal or non-existent active skill or
                    proficiency, IMHO. I have had students in my classes who claim to
                    understand everything said to them by their parents speaking Yoruba,
                    Cantonese, or whatever, but claim to have no active ability in the
                    language whatsoever. I agree that passive cognition of another language is
                    not nothing, and I assume that if/when these students were to actively
                    study their parents' mother tongues, they'd rely on this passive cognition
                    and be able to learn active skills more readily and rapidly than rank
                    beginners.

                    So if it's specialists in language learning who are unhappy with "passive
                    bilingualism", why do they get to call the shots? There are other issues,
                    such as (as you mention) the type of discourse that results.

                    HS


                    On Wed, 28 Feb 2007, ianlwilson wrote:

                    > According to Baetens Beardsmore (1986) "Bilingualism: Basic principles
                    > (2nd edition)", the term "receptive bilingualism" is preferred over
                    > "passive bilingualism". The latter term "is not favoured by specialists
                    > involved in language learning because it is felt that any language
                    > decoding activity implies active neurological processes" (p.16). At any
                    > rate, these terms (including "mutual passive bilingualism") seem to
                    > describe a person's/people's bilingual ability, not the type of
                    > discourse that results.
                    >
                    > --- In code-switching@yahoogroups.com, "Harold F. Schiffman" <haroldfs@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > If this is the preferred term, where did I get "mutual passive
                    > > bilingualism?" It's true that if I google this term, some of my own web
                    > > pages come up near the top, but there are other, older ones that seem to
                    > > have used it earlier. Is the term passe?
                    > >
                    > > Hal Schiffman
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > On Mon, 26 Feb 2007, Ian Wilson wrote:
                    > >
                    > > > Sorry for responding so late to this thread. I don't check the list
                    > > > very often but just noticed the question now. I believe the term for
                    > > > this phenomenon is "dilingual discourse". Carolyn Johnson and I used
                    > > > the term in our 2002 IJB paper ("Phonetic evidence for early language
                    > > > differentiation: Research issues and some preliminary data".
                    > > > International Journal of Bilingualism 6: 271-289). At that time, we
                    > > > didn't know the term had been used before by Saville-Troike in her
                    > > > 1987 Linguistics paper ("Dilingual discourse: The negotiation of
                    > > > meaning without a common code". Linguistics 25: 81-106).
                    > > >
                    > > > Note, however, that the term "dilingual" is not very common. A Google
                    > > > search on the word yields only about 100 websites that contain it.
                    > > > Compare that to the word "bilingual", which yields 26,000,000 websites!
                    > > >
                    > > > Sincerely,
                    > > > Ian Wilson
                    > > > University of Aizu
                    > > > <http://www.u-aizu.ac.jp/~wilson>
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > To Post a message: code-switching @ yahoogroups.com
                    > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                    > code-switching-unsubscribe @ yahoogroups.com
                    > Web page: http//groups.yahoo.com/group/code-switching
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
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