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RE: [code-switching] Help me !!

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  • Celso Alvarez Cáccamo
    Jacomine, Susan Ervin-Tripp was replying to a message by Aini, who had posted the Help me !! message. My own working definition is that code-switching is any
    Message 1 of 16 , Jan 31, 2004
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      Jacomine,

      Susan Ervin-Tripp was replying to a message by Aini, who had posted the
      "Help me !!" message.

      My own working definition is that code-switching is any shift in
      communicative codes, that is, in shifting/alternating general procedures
      for signalling intention and for arriving at interpretations. Thus,

      communicative intention => intention-signalling code => signalling
      resources (including languages) => interpretive code => interpretation

      Codes are not languages, but abstract operations which organize signalling
      resources from various systems such as language, gesturing, kinesics, etc.
      Thus, a shift in intention which triggers a shift in codes may NOT
      necessarily carry out language alternation.

      And viceversa: two languages may alternate without the presence of
      code-switching, since that alternation responds to a global communicative
      code (for instance, a code to signal a given type of event or social
      situation).

      Since code-switching (CS) is not the same as language alternation (LA),
      four situations obtain:

      1) CS with LA
      2) CS without LA (monolingual speech)
      3) LA without CS
      4) Neither CS nor LA (monolingual speech)

      Typical examples:

      1) +CS+LA: Quotations in "the other language": reported speech involves CS,
      as it recontextualizes to whom words "belong" to, the setting of the
      narrated event, etc. Debrayage (distancing) from the reported words is, I
      believe, consubstantial to reported speech.
      2) +CS-LA Quotations or other distancing phenomena through irony, ironic
      prosody, paralinguistics, etc., *without* a recognizable alternation
      between distinct speech varieties (varieties show regularities, occasional
      usage of certain prosodic patterns not necessarily characterize "varieties"
      or even registers). Another example: transitions between on-record /
      off-record procedures in monolingual speech.
      3) +LA-CS: Typically, Gumperz's "code-switching style" (frequent language
      alternation without RE-contextualization; what is globally contextualized
      may be a type of social identity, true, such as the case of Spanglish LA,
      but each LA point is generally meaningless).
      4) -LA-CS: Shortish segments of monolingual speech.

      These are my 2 (well, 4) cents.

      -celso
      Celso Alvarez Cáccamo


      At 17:40 31-01-2004 +0100, you wrote:
      >Dear susan,
      >I think you'l have to make your own working definitions. . . .
    • muslimov mehmet zaqir oglu
      ... Well, what do you think about Muysken s congruent lexicalization? For example, let us consider dialect/standard alternation. How many codes we have in this
      Message 2 of 16 , Jan 31, 2004
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        >Since code-switching (CS) is not the same as language alternation (LA),
        >four situations obtain:
        >
        >1) CS with LA
        >2) CS without LA (monolingual speech)
        >3) LA without CS
        >4) Neither CS nor LA (monolingual speech)
        >
        >Typical examples:
        >
        >1) +CS+LA: Quotations in "the other language": reported speech involves CS,
        >as it recontextualizes to whom words "belong" to, the setting of the
        >narrated event, etc. Debrayage (distancing) from the reported words is, I
        >believe, consubstantial to reported speech.
        >2) +CS-LA Quotations or other distancing phenomena through irony, ironic
        >prosody, paralinguistics, etc., *without* a recognizable alternation
        >between distinct speech varieties (varieties show regularities, occasional
        >usage of certain prosodic patterns not necessarily characterize "varieties"
        >or even registers). Another example: transitions between on-record /
        >off-record procedures in monolingual speech.
        >3) +LA-CS: Typically, Gumperz's "code-switching style" (frequent language
        >alternation without RE-contextualization; what is globally contextualized
        >may be a type of social identity, true, such as the case of Spanglish LA,
        >but each LA point is generally meaningless).
        >4) -LA-CS: Shortish segments of monolingual speech.
        >
        >
        Well, what do you think about Muysken's congruent lexicalization? For example, let us consider dialect/standard alternation. How many codes we have in this case? Probably, two. But where is the borderline between style-shifting in Labov's sense and alternation of two close related varieties?
      • Celso Alvarez Cáccamo
        ... I don t know. All I think is that 1) The structural distance between two seemingly distinct varieties has to be examined locally; when applying pre-defined
        Message 3 of 16 , Feb 1, 2004
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          At 20:54 31-01-2004 +0300, "muslimov mehmet zaqir oglu" wrote:

          >Well, what do you think about Muysken's congruent lexicalization? For
          >example, let us consider dialect/standard alternation. How many codes we
          >have in this case? Probably, two. But where is the borderline between
          >style-shifting in Labov's sense and alternation of two close related varieties?

          I don't know.

          All I think is that 1) The structural distance between two seemingly
          distinct varieties has to be examined locally; when applying pre-defined
          views of "languages" or "varieties" to intrinsically hetereogeneous speech,
          we may arrive at distinctions that tell us little about how speakers use
          those resources interactionally. And 2) Even when boundaries between
          distinct varieties (languages, dialects, registers, styles) are established
          for a given set of data, alternation between these varieties does not
          necessarily or always carry interactional effects in terms of
          recontextualization.

          My focus is not grammatical (understanding what mechanism generates
          stretches in "monolingual" vs. "bilingual"/"bilectal" speech, and which
          restrictions apply), but interactional (pragmatic).

          And all I think, too, is that, originally (for Jakobson), the mechanism of
          "switching code" implied a mental 'change of chip' of some sort for
          interpreting another person's speech, or for producing a type of speech
          which would *contrast* with previous material. Originally Jakobson's focus
          was on speech as "accent", but later he extended it to communication in
          general.

          So, following this, if both interlocutors A and B share the expectation and
          convention of alternating/mixing languages constantly as a part of their
          repertoire (Spanish/English, Galizan-Portuguese/Spanish in Galiza,
          Hindi/English, etc.), and this happens smoothly, then I don't see any
          mental change of chip at language boundaries: I don't see any "switching"
          of any underlying code. Grammatically, things may be happening, sure, but
          the grammar of bilingual (?) speech is not my focus, and I know even *less*
          about it. So, I'm afraid I don't have much to say.

          -celso
        • luciaq
          Thanks for a very interesting discussion. In the light of Celso s positions, I wonder what to make of bilinguals that are not switching languages, but ways of
          Message 4 of 16 , Feb 1, 2004
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            Thanks for a very interesting discussion. In the light of Celso's
            positions, I wonder what to make of bilinguals that are not
            switching languages, but "ways of saying", like "I should live so
            long..." in another language, for example "eu devia viver isso
            tudo", that does not make any sense in Portuguese. Culture
            switching? Mixing?
            Lucia Quental

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Celso Alvarez Cáccamo [mailto:lxalvarz@...]
            Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 12:07 PM
            To: code-switching@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [code-switching] Help me !!


            At 20:54 31-01-2004 +0300, "muslimov mehmet zaqir oglu" wrote:

            >Well, what do you think about Muysken's congruent
            lexicalization? For
            >example, let us consider dialect/standard alternation. How many
            codes we
            >have in this case? Probably, two. But where is the borderline
            between
            >style-shifting in Labov's sense and alternation of two close
            related varieties?

            I don't know.

            All I think is that 1) The structural distance between two
            seemingly
            distinct varieties has to be examined locally; when applying
            pre-defined
            views of "languages" or "varieties" to intrinsically
            hetereogeneous speech,
            we may arrive at distinctions that tell us little about how
            speakers use
            those resources interactionally. And 2) Even when boundaries
            between
            distinct varieties (languages, dialects, registers, styles) are
            established
            for a given set of data, alternation between these varieties does
            not
            necessarily or always carry interactional effects in terms of
            recontextualization.

            My focus is not grammatical (understanding what mechanism
            generates
            stretches in "monolingual" vs. "bilingual"/"bilectal" speech, and
            which
            restrictions apply), but interactional (pragmatic).

            And all I think, too, is that, originally (for Jakobson), the
            mechanism of
            "switching code" implied a mental 'change of chip' of some sort
            for
            interpreting another person's speech, or for producing a type of
            speech
            which would *contrast* with previous material. Originally
            Jakobson's focus
            was on speech as "accent", but later he extended it to
            communication in
            general.

            So, following this, if both interlocutors A and B share the
            expectation and
            convention of alternating/mixing languages constantly as a part
            of their
            repertoire (Spanish/English, Galizan-Portuguese/Spanish in
            Galiza,
            Hindi/English, etc.), and this happens smoothly, then I don't see
            any
            mental change of chip at language boundaries: I don't see any
            "switching"
            of any underlying code. Grammatically, things may be happening,
            sure, but
            the grammar of bilingual (?) speech is not my focus, and I know
            even *less*
            about it. So, I'm afraid I don't have much to say.

            -celso


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          • Maria Eugenia Trillo
            Yes, thanks to all of you for a wonderful discussion. Allow me to re-introduce myself. I was a member a long time ago, before the Yahoo chat group, and
            Message 5 of 16 , Feb 3, 2004
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              Yes, thanks to all of you for a wonderful discussion.


              Allow me to re-introduce myself. I was a member a
              long time ago, before the Yahoo chat group, and
              occasionally check in. My name is Maria Eugenia
              Trillo. I have a Ph.D. from the University of New
              Mexico. For my dissertation, I studied the
              code-switching patterns of my El Paso, Texas
              (Spanish/English) community.

              Lucia, in my data I also have such transfers of
              metaphors, jokes, or idiomatic expressions of one
              language constructed in the linguistic code of the
              other. Pragmatically, this indicates that both, the
              listener and the speaker would need to be equally
              bilingual (proficiency, again) and bicultural in order
              to connect with all the nuances and contexts of the
              utterance.

              I wonder if this is analogous to surface v. deep
              structure...two tiers of "switching" or "mixing"...

              M.E. Trillo

              --- luciaq <luciaq@...> wrote:
              > Thanks for a very interesting discussion. In the
              > light of Celso's
              > positions, I wonder what to make of bilinguals that
              > are not
              > switching languages, but "ways of saying", like "I
              > should live so
              > long..." in another language, for example "eu devia
              > viver isso
              > tudo", that does not make any sense in Portuguese.
              > Culture
              > switching? Mixing?
              > Lucia Quental
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: Celso Alvarez C�ccamo [mailto:lxalvarz@...]
              > Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 12:07 PM
              > To: code-switching@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: RE: [code-switching] Help me !!
              >
              >
              > At 20:54 31-01-2004 +0300, "muslimov mehmet zaqir
              > oglu" wrote:
              >
              > >Well, what do you think about Muysken's congruent
              > lexicalization? For
              > >example, let us consider dialect/standard
              > alternation. How many
              > codes we
              > >have in this case? Probably, two. But where is the
              > borderline
              > between
              > >style-shifting in Labov's sense and alternation of
              > two close
              > related varieties?
              >
              > I don't know.
              >
              > All I think is that 1) The structural distance
              > between two
              > seemingly
              > distinct varieties has to be examined locally; when
              > applying
              > pre-defined
              > views of "languages" or "varieties" to intrinsically
              > hetereogeneous speech,
              > we may arrive at distinctions that tell us little
              > about how
              > speakers use
              > those resources interactionally. And 2) Even when
              > boundaries
              > between
              > distinct varieties (languages, dialects, registers,
              > styles) are
              > established
              > for a given set of data, alternation between these
              > varieties does
              > not
              > necessarily or always carry interactional effects in
              > terms of
              > recontextualization.
              >
              > My focus is not grammatical (understanding what
              > mechanism
              > generates
              > stretches in "monolingual" vs.
              > "bilingual"/"bilectal" speech, and
              > which
              > restrictions apply), but interactional (pragmatic).
              >
              > And all I think, too, is that, originally (for
              > Jakobson), the
              > mechanism of
              > "switching code" implied a mental 'change of chip'
              > of some sort
              > for
              > interpreting another person's speech, or for
              > producing a type of
              > speech
              > which would *contrast* with previous material.
              > Originally
              > Jakobson's focus
              > was on speech as "accent", but later he extended it
              > to
              > communication in
              > general.
              >
              > So, following this, if both interlocutors A and B
              > share the
              > expectation and
              > convention of alternating/mixing languages
              > constantly as a part
              > of their
              > repertoire (Spanish/English,
              > Galizan-Portuguese/Spanish in
              > Galiza,
              > Hindi/English, etc.), and this happens smoothly,
              > then I don't see
              > any
              > mental change of chip at language boundaries: I
              > don't see any
              > "switching"
              > of any underlying code. Grammatically, things may be
              > happening,
              > sure, but
              > the grammar of bilingual (?) speech is not my focus,
              > and I know
              > even *less*
              > about it. So, I'm afraid I don't have much to say.
              >
              > -celso
              >
              >
              > To Post a message: code-switching@yahoogroups.com
              > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
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              >
              > To visit your group on the web, go to:
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              >
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            • luciaq
              Hi Maria Eugenia, I ve been thinking since this discussion started. Apparently, these expressions or any other such trans cultural talk (how should I call
              Message 6 of 16 , Feb 5, 2004
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                Hi Maria Eugenia,
                I've been thinking since this discussion started. Apparently,
                these expressions or any other such "trans cultural talk" (how
                should I call them? are they contextualization cues ?) from a
                second culture are deitic in nature, don't you think? They point
                to another context. And they also appear to foreground an aspect
                of identity (we belong to this group). Anyway, I don't associate
                them with grammar, but with speech (discourse), and I agree they
                seem to signal "tiers" of meaning. Hmm. : - I
                Lucia Quental
                UFRJ
                Rio de Janeiro

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Maria Eugenia Trillo [mailto:metrillo2002@...]
                Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 5:53 PM
                To: code-switching@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [code-switching] Help me !!


                Yes, thanks to all of you for a wonderful discussion.


                Allow me to re-introduce myself. I was a member a
                long time ago, before the Yahoo chat group, and
                occasionally check in. My name is Maria Eugenia
                Trillo. I have a Ph.D. from the University of New
                Mexico. For my dissertation, I studied the
                code-switching patterns of my El Paso, Texas
                (Spanish/English) community.

                Lucia, in my data I also have such transfers of
                metaphors, jokes, or idiomatic expressions of one
                language constructed in the linguistic code of the
                other. Pragmatically, this indicates that both, the
                listener and the speaker would need to be equally
                bilingual (proficiency, again) and bicultural in order
                to connect with all the nuances and contexts of the
                utterance.

                I wonder if this is analogous to surface v. deep
                structure...two tiers of "switching" or "mixing"...

                M.E. Trillo
              • lidaa aka
                hi all, this is in response to Ervin-Tripp s reference to Gumperz s definition which she has quoted as .. involving the switching of relatively long segments
                Message 7 of 16 , Feb 5, 2004
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                  hi all,
                  this is in response to Ervin-Tripp's reference to
                  Gumperz's definition which she has quoted as "..
                  involving the switching of relatively long segments
                  larger than an NP, when both speaker and hearer are
                  competent bilinguals."
                  my point here is if only the NP of one language is
                  used in the sentence of another language wont it be
                  called code switching???
                  let us first try to think of simple NP comprising of
                  only a Noun (the data is in mixed Kashmiri-english)
                  Kashmiri: John-an banov akh HOUSE
                  john-ERG made a house
                  'John constructed a house'.


                  tim chi CRAZY BOYS
                  they are crazy boys
                  'They are crazy boys'


                  mye vuch THE MAN WHO KILLED HIS FATHER
                  i saw the man who killed his father
                  'i saw the man who killed his father'

                  in these three examples we have mixing of english NPs
                  comprising of only a Noun, an adjective+Noun and in
                  the final sentence a Complex NP comprising of an NP +
                  an S. i would like to ask Myers-Scotton about these
                  sentences. are they examples of code-switching or not?
                  and are there any demarcations where in we can say
                  that at a certain syntactic level it can be called
                  code switching and at another not???/ and is the
                  defiition given by Gumperz still held valid (it must
                  be so as it has been quoted here?
                  Furthermore, another question which comes to mind is
                  that if a single word of one language is used in the a
                  sentence in which all the other elements are of
                  another language, and that word has an alternative in
                  that langauge, is it an instance of CS or borrowing?
                  waiting for a reply



                  --- Susan Ervin-Tripp <ervintr1@...>
                  wrote:
                  > >Dear friends,
                  > > Could anybody help me to
                  > differentiate between code
                  > >switching,code mixing and code alternation? I
                  > really need your help.
                  >
                  > Not everyone uses these terms the same way.
                  >
                  > The classic definition of code switching was the one
                  > used by John
                  > Gumperz, involving
                  > the switching of relatively long segments larger
                  > than an NP, when
                  > both speaker and hearer
                  > are competent bilinguals. Such switching requires
                  > syntactic
                  > competence in both languages, since the switches may
                  > involve whole
                  > clauses or sentences.
                  >
                  > "Situational switching" involves changing language
                  > according to
                  > location, genre, topic,
                  > or addressee. This is a kind of language/code
                  > choice.
                  >
                  > "Conversational or metaphorical switching" is a
                  > semiotic option of
                  > skilled speakers who know enough syntax in both
                  > languages to
                  > intersperse the two even in the same context, to
                  > signal something
                  > interactional or semantic. Such switches can be at
                  > any level, between
                  > or within sentences. They can set the tone for
                  > cultural/semantic
                  > interpretation, "contextualize" what is said.
                  >
                  > "Discourse switching" uses unmarked switches just to
                  > highlight some
                  > discursive process, such as marking quotation or
                  > emphasis. The
                  > change, rather than the particular language in a
                  > segment, does the
                  > work.
                  >
                  > There is a contrasting type which involves lexical
                  > insertion whether
                  > of a root, word, or
                  > short phrase or tag. These can be learned as wholes
                  > and stuck into a
                  > "matrix" language without
                  > requiring syntactic skill in the intruding language.
                  > This kind of
                  > insertion often appears in new
                  > learners. It also is used as a crutch when words are
                  > momentarily forgotten.
                  >
                  > Some people use code alternation to include all of
                  > these kinds, and
                  > some use code mixing to
                  > include all of these kinds. Let's see what other
                  > answers you get,
                  > since usage varies.
                  >
                  > Susan Ervin-Tripp
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
                  > Susan M. Ervin-Tripp tel (510)
                  > 642-5292* (msgs)
                  > Professor Emeritus FAX (510)
                  > 642-5293
                  > Psychology Department
                  > ervintrp@...
                  > University of California
                  > http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~ervintrp/
                  > Berkeley CA 94720
                  >
                  ***********************************************************************
                  >
                  >


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                • Susan Ervin-Tripp
                  Let me make clear, that was my paraphrase since any of you can read Gumperz writings on the subject, and must. This is not his wording at all. I put it that
                  Message 8 of 16 , Feb 5, 2004
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                    Let me make clear, that was my paraphrase since any of
                    you can read Gumperz' writings on the subject, and must. This is not
                    his wording at all.

                    I put it that way in order to differentiate long switches from short
                    ones which some people call insertional, which we and others
                    have found can involve some different on-the-spot mechanisms.
                    The short switches or insertions occur much earlier in
                    learning, before speakers are fully competent bilinguals, able
                    to handle more complex syntax.
                    And in anybody, they can occur as a reaction to momentary
                    processing effects, differences in lexical access which brings
                    a word to mind in one language when it isn't at the moment
                    accessible in the other. When our addressee is monolingual,
                    we would normally not produce that word, but between bilinguals
                    the constraints are weaker, so the normal oscillations in lexical
                    access can show up as short switches or insertions. And of course
                    there are all the other motivations for what is called also
                    "nonce borrowing."

                    susan ervin-tripp
                  • Maria Eugenia Trillo
                    Yes, yes, that s good, Lucia! Sometimes I feel we discuss form when, in fact, it is function that we need to be addressing. The use of two linguistic
                    Message 9 of 16 , Feb 6, 2004
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                      Yes, yes, that's good, Lucia! Sometimes I feel we
                      discuss "form" when, in fact, it is "function" that we
                      need to be addressing. The use of two linguistic
                      codes to perform a discourse function...:) Some of my
                      subjects use a variety of codes in their speech:
                      monolingual discourse; streams of monolingual speech
                      with phrasal or clausal insertions of the other
                      language; metaphorical insertions; only nouns or just
                      verbal phrases--all in the attempt to render
                      authenticity to a quote, or express group identity,
                      gain or relinquish the floor, or any number of other
                      discourse functions.

                      Thank you for your contribution.

                      m.e.trillo
                      --- luciaq <luciaq@...> wrote:
                      > Hi Maria Eugenia,
                      > I've been thinking since this discussion started.
                      > Apparently,
                      > these expressions or any other such "trans cultural
                      > talk" (how
                      > should I call them? are they contextualization cues
                      > ?) from a
                      > second culture are deitic in nature, don't you
                      > think? They point
                      > to another context. And they also appear to
                      > foreground an aspect
                      > of identity (we belong to this group). Anyway, I
                      > don't associate
                      > them with grammar, but with speech (discourse), and
                      > I agree they
                      > seem to signal "tiers" of meaning. Hmm. : - I
                      > Lucia Quental
                      > UFRJ
                      > Rio de Janeiro
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: Maria Eugenia Trillo
                      > [mailto:metrillo2002@...]
                      > Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 5:53 PM
                      > To: code-switching@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: RE: [code-switching] Help me !!
                      >
                      >
                      > Yes, thanks to all of you for a wonderful
                      > discussion.
                      >
                      >
                      > Allow me to re-introduce myself. I was a member a
                      > long time ago, before the Yahoo chat group, and
                      > occasionally check in. My name is Maria Eugenia
                      > Trillo. I have a Ph.D. from the University of New
                      > Mexico. For my dissertation, I studied the
                      > code-switching patterns of my El Paso, Texas
                      > (Spanish/English) community.
                      >
                      > Lucia, in my data I also have such transfers of
                      > metaphors, jokes, or idiomatic expressions of one
                      > language constructed in the linguistic code of the
                      > other. Pragmatically, this indicates that both, the
                      > listener and the speaker would need to be equally
                      > bilingual (proficiency, again) and bicultural in
                      > order
                      > to connect with all the nuances and contexts of the
                      > utterance.
                      >
                      > I wonder if this is analogous to surface v. deep
                      > structure...two tiers of "switching" or "mixing"...
                      >
                      > M.E. Trillo
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
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                    • neeraja raghupathi
                      Hello all, I jst went through the interesting discussion that happened among the various linguists. I am presently doing my dissertation on CS behavior in
                      Message 10 of 16 , Feb 6, 2004
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                        Hello all,

                        I jst went through the interesting discussion that happened among the various linguists. I am presently doing my dissertation on CS behavior in stutterers in the Indian context. The same has been studied in aphasic individuals. I have come across two different opnions w.r.t CS in aphasia. One view says that Code swithcing and code mixing are entirely different. code switching when becomes pathological (one you can see in aphasics) is called code mixing. And the other opinion is that (which is the recent one) code switching and code mixing can be used interchageably. they mean the same.

                        I will get the exact references in anyone needs it.

                        I am interested in knowing what the SLPs and Linguists have to say abt this...

                        with best wishes,

                        neeraja.


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                      • muslimov mehmet zaqir oglu
                        ... And what do you think about the following example: Siz vEtE-ttii mine-kaa-nibud ostr-ym puteli-st pois then take-IMPF-PASS what-COM-INDF
                        Message 11 of 16 , Feb 7, 2004
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                          >let us first try to think of simple NP comprising of
                          >only a Noun (the data is in mixed Kashmiri-english)
                          >Kashmiri: John-an banov akh HOUSE
                          > john-ERG made a house
                          > 'John constructed a house'.
                          >
                          >
                          > tim chi CRAZY BOYS
                          > they are crazy boys
                          > 'They are crazy boys'
                          >
                          >
                          > mye vuch THE MAN WHO KILLED HIS FATHER
                          > i saw the man who killed his father
                          > 'i saw the man who killed his father'
                          >
                          And what do you think about the following example:

                          Siz vEtE-ttii mine-kaa-nibud' ostr-ym puteli-st pois then take-IMPF-PASS what-COM-INDF sharp-INSTR bottle-ELAT away


                          'Then it was pulled by something sharp out of the bottle'
                          ostr-ym is Russian,
                          -nibud' is Votian and Russian,
                          st 'Elative' is Izhorian,
                          puteli, siz, -ttii, mine-, pois are Izhorian and Votian,
                          vEtE, kaa are Votian
                          Three languages are mixed in this sentence.
                        • Chkoni Chkonishi
                          Mehmet Where do you live? These languages, I mean Izhorian and Votian seem to be of Turcic group. can you tell me the name in Russian and the location of them.
                          Message 12 of 16 , Feb 14, 2004
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                            Mehmet
                            Where do you live? These languages, I mean Izhorian and Votian seem to be of Turcic group. can you tell me the name in Russian and the location of them. Nibud is obviously a codeswitched item from Russian, but maybe almost aclimatized.
                            Respects
                            Chkoni

                            muslimov mehmet zaqir oglu <mehmet@...> wrote:
                            >let us first try to think of simple NP comprising of
                            >only a Noun (the data is in mixed Kashmiri-english)
                            >Kashmiri: John-an banov akh HOUSE
                            > john-ERG made a house
                            > 'John constructed a house'.
                            >
                            >
                            > tim chi CRAZY BOYS
                            > they are crazy boys
                            > 'They are crazy boys'
                            >
                            >
                            > mye vuch THE MAN WHO KILLED HIS FATHER
                            > i saw the man who killed his father
                            > 'i saw the man who killed his father'
                            >
                            And what do you think about the following example:

                            Siz vEtE-ttii mine-kaa-nibud' ostr-ym puteli-st pois then take-IMPF-PASS what-COM-INDF sharp-INSTR bottle-ELAT away


                            'Then it was pulled by something sharp out of the bottle'
                            ostr-ym is Russian,
                            -nibud' is Votian and Russian,
                            st 'Elative' is Izhorian,
                            puteli, siz, -ttii, mine-, pois are Izhorian and Votian,
                            vEtE, kaa are Votian
                            Three languages are mixed in this sentence.



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                          • muslimov mehmet zaqir oglu
                            ... I live in Saint-Petersburg, Russia. ... Izhorian (Russian Izhorskij jazyk, éÖÏÒÓËÉÊ ÑÚÙË) is closely related to Finnish and Karelian, Votian
                            Message 13 of 16 , Feb 21, 2004
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                              >Mehmet
                              >Where do you live?
                              I live in Saint-Petersburg, Russia.

                              >These languages, I mean Izhorian and Votian seem to be of >Turcic group. can you tell me the name in Russian and the >location of them.

                              Izhorian (Russian Izhorskij jazyk, Ижорский язык) is closely related to Finnish and Karelian, Votian (Russian Vodskij jazyk, Водский язык) is closely related to Estonian. They are spoken in the western part of Leningrad region, near the border between Estonia and Russia.

                              >Nibud is obviously a codeswitched item from Russian, but >maybe almost aclimatized.

                              Usually -lee is used; c^en-lee 'somebody'. But in purely Votian context -nibud is also used, c^en-nibud 'somebody'.
                              Respects
                              Mehmet
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