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Pi still stalling on RH's white hole time dilation

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  • DBWILLIS@aol.com
    DW here ... Pi: And in that article, Jerry demonstrated his abysmal ignorance of the relevant physics and observations .... right down to the assumptions on
    Message 1 of 6 , Mar 3, 2011
      DW here
       
      >>
      Pi:
      And in that article, Jerry demonstrated his abysmal ignorance of the relevant physics and observations .... right down to the assumptions on which the distance calculation was based.
       
      Why am I NOT surprised?
       
      >>

      And why am *I* not surprised you still haven't found time to properly address the white hole idea from RH?  All you said so far was it would cause things to get ripped apart (but I showed it would not) and then you said it would HAVE to mean the earth would be heated up too much, and then I answered that objection as well.  You ADMITTED that there WOULD be massive time dilation if the U was bounded and cosmic objects passed through an event horizon while Earth was inside the white hole.  That does solve your objection re. light from stars/supernovas...without using "apparent age." 
       
      I guess you have time for patty-caking but not for meaningful discussion. 
       
       
    • PIASAN@aol.com
      DW here And why am *I* not surprised you still haven t found time to properly address the white hole idea from RH? ##### Pi: I did. I told you that the
      Message 2 of 6 , Mar 4, 2011
        DW here
        And why am *I* not surprised you still haven't found time to properly address the white hole idea from RH? 
        #####
        Pi:
        I did.  I told you that the instant I did the calculations and found that when the diameter of the universe is only one billion light years, time on Earth would pass at a rate of less than 8x that of the rest of the universe, it was game, set, and match.  Humphryes' model fails. 
         
        Based on the way you blew that off, I guess you didn't fully understand the implications.....  let's see if I can explain...
         
        The most distant objects in the universe are over 12 billion light years.from Earth and traveling near the speed of light.  Even at that velocity, it would take 11 billion years for them to travel from 1 to 12 billion light years.  Since the rate of time passage on Earth at one billion light years is less than 8x that of those objects, it would take light from them more than 1.3 billion years, in Earth's reference frame, to reach us.  As I said.... game, set, and match. 
         
         
         
        David:
         All you said so far was it would cause things to get ripped apart (but I showed it would not)
        #####
        Pi:
        That became a moot point as soon as I actually did the time dilation calculation.
         
         
         
        David:
        and then you said it would HAVE to mean the earth would be heated up too much,
        #####
        Pi:
        Let's set the record straight on this one.  YOU suggested a universe 30x smaller.  I simply applied that to the solar system (which is, after all, part of the universe) and pointed out if the sun were 30x closer, we would get 900x the energy from the sun we do now.  (In fact, Earth over 10x closer to the sun than the planet Mercury.)  I'm not going to bother trying to calculate what would happen but would be willing to bet life would be vaporized very quickly.
         
         
         
        David:
         and then I answered that objection as well.
        #####
        Pi:
        Yeah.... by completely ignoring that Humphreys' model is alleged to work within the scientific bounds of Einstein's theories and invoking multiple miracles.  IIRC, you also said the sun didn't have to be 30x closer.  OK, fine.  how far was the sun?  How far from Earth did this expansion begin?
         
         
         
        David:
          You ADMITTED that there WOULD be massive time dilation if the U was bounded and cosmic objects passed through an event horizon while Earth was inside the white hole. 
        #####
        Pi:
        More precisely, I said that with a universe of the suggested mass and the Earth at the center as long as the mass was within 470 million light years (IIRC) of Earth.  I also said that spreading that mass out to a billion light years would reduce Earth time dilation to less than 8x that at the edge.
         
         
         
        David:
         That does solve your objection re. light from stars/supernovas...without using "apparent age." 
        #####
        Pi:
        Not by a long shot.  The most distant supernova is over 11 billion light years from Earth.  Why don't you describe for us how it gets from 1 billion to 11 billion in only 6000 Earth years.... keeping in mind my previous calculation.
         
        We can even look closer to home.... Sn1987a would have a time dilation factor similar to Earth's since, by galactic standards, it's pretty lose.  At 167,000 ly with an 8x time dilation factor, it would take at least 20,000 (Earth) years for light from that event to reach Earth.
         
         
         
        David:
        I guess you have time for patty-caking but not for meaningful discussion. 
        #####
        Pi:
        The comment about Jerry took less than 5 minutes.  I spent more time than that on some sentences in this post.....
      • DBWILLIS@aol.com
        DW here, Pi Based on the way you blew that off, I didn t blow it off. I replied to it and answered you. You should try that sometime. ... fully
        Message 3 of 6 , Mar 5, 2011
          DW here,
           
          Pi>>Based on the way you blew that off,>>
           
           
          I didn't blow it off.  I replied to it and answered you.  You should try that sometime.
           
           
          >> I guess you didn't fully understand the
          implications. .... let's see if I can explain...The most distant objects in the universe are over 12 billion light years.from Earth and traveling near the speed of light. Even at that velocity, it would take 11 billion years for them to travel from 1 to 12 billion light years.>>
           
          I am surprised you think that way.  I used to have that view also.  I wondered how any physical object could GET that far from us in 12 (or 13.7) billion ly...since we are told it is impossible for matter to exceed SOL.  So that would imply that the U is (at a minimum) TWICE as old as 13.7by.  That is, 13.7by (or more) for it to expand outward that far from us and then another 13.7 for the light to get back to us.  BUT the conventional scientists tell us that the expansion of the U happened at a rate FAR BEYOND SOL...and that is (acc. to them) withOUT any miracle involved!  And of course God could expand the U at any rate He wanted.  I thought this was the area of science that "interests" you, Pi...and its been you profession for dozens of years...and you even teach kids what is what in this area.  Why do I know more about it (at least re. this point) than you do?  Didn't you already know that (acc. to "science") the U was expanded much faster than SOL?
           
          >> Since the rate of time passage on Earth at one billion light
          years is less than 8x that of those objects,>>
           
          I think you got that backwards...even with your own reasoning, the rate of time is SLOWER on Earth.  Although here (below) you seem to have it right, that it is slower on Earth.  But you have the AMOUNT wrong.  The massive time dilation occurs NEAR the EH. 
           
          >> it would take light from them more than 1.3 billion years, in
          Earth's reference frame, to reach us. As I said.... game, set, and match.
          >>

          No Pi, it is YOU that doesn't get it.  Here is what I wrote previously to address this weak point of yours...which you chose to IGNORE as usual.
           
          >>Pi: Now, let's consider the time dilation when the universe has a
          radius of a billion light years (9.47e24 m). Solving for To, we get 0.728. To put it another way, once the universe reaches a radius of a billion light years, for a billion years at the "edge" of the universe some 728 million years would pass on Earth. >>
           
          >>DW: So?  All that means is that as each object expanded
          outward past the EH, then most of the time dilation happened while it was nearer the EH.  SO WHAT if by the time it got out to 1 bly it had mostly caught up and no more dilation was happening?  All that was needed had already taken place!  Also you seem to be under the misapprehension that it would take a billion years for the U to expand a billion lightyears.  Not true.  Expansion happens faster than SOL.
           
          Pi>>You STILL don't have enough time for the light from those distant objects to reach Earth if they're even 2 billion light years from Earth. This is because while the universe is expanding from 1 billion to 2 billion light years, some 728 million years passed on Earth.>>
           
          DW:You don't get the model.  On Day 4 (say at 12:00 noon), object A crosses the EH, and by 12:01, it would have experienced many billions of years of cosmic events.  As mass expands outward the EH shrinks inward and so by the time A is 1bly away its stream of events on its light beam has slowed to almost the same as today. But there are still many "old" events on that light beam. 

          >>Game, set, and
          match.
          ************ **>>

          Yeah...I guess so, since you are anxious to declare victory for yourself and run away.  You haven't even scored one point yet.  You forfeit, run away and the match is over.>>
           
           =====
           
          It would not matter at all if the time dilation ended by the time the U had expanded further to (say) twice its radius of 450mly at the start of creation.  All would agree that the dilation ENDED at some point, so that Earth and cosmic objects would then on the same time scale.  But while the objects were near the EH then there WOULD be massive time dilation.  But later, with further expansion, those objects which were outside the EH would already have experienced the time dilation (back when they were near the EH).  Those objects inside the EH would be on the same time as Earth until they too passed through the EH as it shrunk inward. 
           
          BTW, I am not accepting that you have a correct calculation of the time dilation.  I don't think you have properly grasped the equation in RH's book which calculates it.  He has graphs which show that the dilation effect is very sharply curved as it is near the EH.  You seem to have a simple exponential effect.  That may be true of gravity.  It is not true of time.  Have you even read the very short book by RH yet?  Or are you sure the PhD physicist is wrong without even reading his material?
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
        • DBWILLIS@aol.com
          DW here, I apologize...I just sent a reply to Pi without noticing the rest of his post which DID address some of what I previously wrote. Although he does
          Message 4 of 6 , Mar 5, 2011
            DW here,
             
            I apologize...I just sent a reply to Pi without noticing the rest of his post which DID address some of what I previously wrote.  Although he does seem to have ignored it back when it was written (many weeks ago) he did (finally) address some of my points in the post I just finished reading.  So I will write more later.
             
             
          • DBWILLIS@aol.com
            DW here, ... All you said so far was it would cause things to get ripped apart (but I showed it would not) ##### Pi: That became a moot point as soon as I
            Message 5 of 6 , Mar 6, 2011
              DW here,
               
              >>David:
              All you said so far was it would cause things to get ripped apart (but I showed it would not)
              #####
              Pi:
              That became a moot point as soon as I actually did the time dilation calculation.
              >>
               
              You did it wrong.  You ignore the fact that near an event horizon time is distorted MASSIVELY, and not just on a curve like how gravity diminishes with distance.  So how about FIRST clearly admitting that at a distance of 450mly things passing through the event horizon would NOT have gravity ripping them apart.  Are you honest enough to admit that you were wrong about that, even IF you think it is "moot"?  You made a claim...I showed you are wrong...will you admit it now?  You SEEMED to in the past but then your renegged and now want to pretend your "ripped apart" objection is valid...but even if it is NOT valid, it is moot.  Try to be clear and give ONE answer.  WHICH IS IT?
               
               
              >>David:
              and then you said it would HAVE to mean the earth would be heated up too much,
              #####
              Pi:
              Let's set the record straight on this one. YOU suggested a universe 30x smaller.>>
               
              Actually, that was RH's suggestion.  He actually said 50 times but I think he was (in 1994) thinking of the U as being 20mly in radius.   It was (IIRC) one of two very simple assumptions in his theory.  1) the U is bounded, as we normally think of matter within space; and 2) its mass was at one point within a sphere with a radius of less than 450mly...which would be the maximum size needed (the Schwartschild Radius) for it to have the traits of a black/white hole with an EH.  If it were to be collapsing, that would make it a black hole.  If it would be expanding (as we observe it IS) then it was once a white hole. 
               
              >> I simply applied that to the solar system (which is, after
              all, part of the universe) and pointed out if the sun were 30x closer, we would get 900x the energy from the sun we do now.>>
               
              IF the Sun were the same temp then...and acc. to RH...the period would be only for part of one DAY. 
               
              >> (In fact, Earth over 10x closer to the sun than the planet
              Mercury.) I'm not going to bother trying to calculate what would happen but would be willing to bet life would be vaporized very quickly.
              >>

              And I then answered YOU...and you ignored my answer.  First there was no human or animal life on Earth when this would have been the case.  It was before the 4th day, acc. to RH's theory.  So none of it would be "vaporized." The period of time of it being nearer would have been very very short (perhaps part of one Earth day) and we don't know if God may have had a "warm up time" needed for the Earth or if he purposely caused one for the Sun.  And of course if God wanted to keep the Earth and Sun at a fixed distance while the rest of the U expanded...or if He wanted to put His hand over the Earth to shield it from any heat effects, He most certainly could do that without your permission and without it being in any way a violation of His nature.  If all you have left (to save your silly idea about the starlight "problem") is "the Earth would be too close to the Sun for part of one day and would be heated too much"...then you have very little left to stand on.
               
              >>David:
              and then I answered that objection as well.
              #####
              Pi:
              Yeah.... by completely ignoring that Humphreys' model is alleged to work within the scientific bounds of Einstein's theories and invoking multiple miracles. >>

              RH has not said there were no miracles.  He said THE OPPOSITE.  Try actually READING HIS BOOK.  He simply has said that if God made all the matter of the U within a certain size and then expanded it outward (miraculously) then the science of relativity would DEMAND that there would indeed be time differentials.  You have mealely-mouthed your own position about this point...first admitting it WOULD cause massive time differentials and then back-tracking.  SO WHAT IS YOUR POSITION, PI???  And BTW, maybe you or some other "scientist" could tell us exactly what YOU think is the NON-miraculous cause that made matter expand outward from the small diameter it was at the beginning.  They call it "dark energy" but that is just their stupid ruse to try to pretend they have some naturalistic answer for what force exceeded the tremendous gravity which would have existed at the beginning.  They DON'T have any natural answer.  It is just a pretense.  Just like the other pretenses they have for the origin of matter/energy and the origin of life.  You AGREE that those ARE pretenses, don't you Pi?
               
              >>David:
              You ADMITTED that there WOULD be massive time dilation if the U was bounded and cosmic objects passed through an event horizon while Earth was inside the white hole.
              #####
              Pi:
              More precisely, I said that with a universe of the suggested mass and the Earth at the center as long as the mass was within 470 million light years (IIRC) of Earth. I also said that spreading that mass out to a billion light years would reduce Earth time dilation to less than 8x that at the edge.
              >>

              You are making a silly mistake.  We are not talking merely about differences in GRAVITY.  We are talking about a MASSIVE time dilation that happens ONLY very near the EH of a black/white hole.  Your calc. is perhaps relavent to gravity (I'm not sure) and the "normal" effect that gravity differentials will have on time...but it is not pertinent to the situation of an object passing through the EH of a black/white hole!  Things get WEIRD at that point.  That is what Hawking described with his "astronaut" example who could look back and see a distant clock spinning like an electric fan.  Perhaps if you would actually READ RH's material you'd see that he clarifies this for you.  He said on pg. 21 that time at the edge of the U (using the kind of calc. you are using) would be only a "few percent" faster than at Earth, if all you were considering was the direct effect of gravity (presuming the Earth was near the center of the U).  But the massive time differentials happen as an object passes through an EH. 
               
               
              >>David:
              That does solve your objection re. light from stars/supernovas. ..without using "apparent age."
              #####
              Pi:
              Not by a long shot. The most distant supernova is over 11 billion light years from Earth. Why don't you describe for us how it gets from 1 billion to 11 billion in only 6000 Earth years.... keeping in mind my previous calculation.>>
               
              Yes it does solve it.  There are 2 factors in play.  One is the expansion rate of the U can be faster than the SOL.  Even non-creationists say that.  Maybe you should read Alan Guth's "inflation" idea.  He said (acc. to RH) that at one point the "inflation" rate was 10e20 times faster than SOL!  You have no problem if God moves something faster than SOL do you?  MIRACLES HAPPEN IN CREATION.  You just have a problem with certain miracles...those you THINK (based on your flawed philosophy) involve a devious, deceptive act.  Well, it is man's stupidity that made him think the Earth was flat, not God's DECEPTION.  Once man got smart enough to figure out what reality was, it was clear that God was NOT being deceptive at all to make the Earth so large of a sphere that it appeared flat to paltry men standing at its surface.  So Pi...are you willing to agree that matter can expand outward faster than SOL without violating physics?  And if you think it WOULD, do you have any philosophical problem if God miraculously did that expansion faster than SOL?
               
              The second factor you neglect to consider is that when the EH shrank inward, as it reached Earth, then time on Earth would "slow" (relative to time for cosmic objects) to a point of almost stopping, while it continued at a faster pace for cosmic objects.  It is not so much that the OBJECT passed the EH, that explains the time dilation, but when the EH shrinks inward and passes EARTH.  So will you agree Pi, that when Earth nears and then passes through the EH of a (hypothetical) white hole in a bounded U, then indeed vast amounts of time would pass for objects outside the EH, as compared to the Earth which is inside it?  I believe you have already admitted to this, but you have trouble in (incorrectly) believing that things would have to be ripped apart, or that there would be a heat problem.  But if you set those 2 objections aside for the moment...then you DO agree that the time problem is resolved...right?  You have already admitted this in the past but it seems you are being ambivalent now about hanging on to that idea.  Which is your real answer???
               
              >>We can even look closer to home.... Sn1987a would have a time
              dilation factor similar to Earth's since, by galactic standards, it's pretty close.>>
               
              Again, you fail to "get it".  The time dilation is not just about "how close is the object to Earth or the U's center?"  That calc. (acc. to RH) only can show "a few percent" difference in time.  The question is whether as the EH shrank inward would there have been a time when SN1987a could have been outside the EH while Earth was still inside it.  If so, then massive time differences would HAVE to occur. 
               
              >> At 167,000 ly with an 8x time dilation factor, it would take
              at least 20,000 (Earth) years for light from that event to reach Earth.
              >>

              This makes no sense at all.  Your "8x factor" is pure fiction invented by you.  It certainly is not any fair consequence of RH's model.  The reality is that if there was any time in the past where Earth was on one side of the EH and SN1987a was on the other side, then there could be a vast time differential.  If indeed Earth is near the center of a bounded U that is expanding out from a white hole (and the evidence surely suggests that) then the natural physics of relativity would dictate that there was a time dilation and Earth time would not be the same as time at SN1987a. 
               
              >>David:
              I guess you have time for patty-caking but not for meaningful discussion.
              #####
              Pi:
              The comment about Jerry took less than 5 minutes. I spent more time than that on some sentences in this post.....
              >>

              Well what I have observed is that when I give you a "big bite to chew on" (your phrasing) you stall...and then pretend later that you already gave a good answer.  That's what you've done historically with other topics and you are trying to do it again now...and I'm calling you on it.   
               
               
              DW
               
            • PIASAN@aol.com
              I ve changed the subject because the Humphreys model does not describe a white hole in standard cosmology. Rather it describes a model based (primarily) on an
              Message 6 of 6 , Mar 6, 2011
                I've changed the subject because the Humphreys model does not describe a white hole in standard cosmology.  Rather it describes a model based (primarily) on an effort at Biblical apologetics........
                 
                **** previously ****
                >>David:
                All you said so far was it would cause things to get ripped apart (but I showed it would not)
                #####
                Pi:
                That became a moot point as soon as I actually did the time dilation calculation.
                >> **** end previous ****
                 
                David:
                You did it wrong.  You ignore the fact that near an event horizon time is distorted MASSIVELY, and not just on a curve like how gravity diminishes with distance. 
                *****
                Pi:
                No.  I did it exactly right.  That's why the calculated time differential went from zero time passage on Earth to about 73% (I went back and looked it up) of the rest of the universe as the universe expanded to a radius of one billion light years.  Oh yeah.... it is a curve.... just one with a very dramatic change of slope.
                *****
                 
                 
                David:
                 So how about FIRST clearly admitting that at a distance of 450mly things passing through the event horizon would NOT have gravity ripping them apart.  Are you honest enough to admit that you were wrong about that, even IF you think it is "moot"?
                *****
                Pi:
                One of the references you provided was by Hawking.  I'm not so foolish as to argue with Hawking.  My claim wasn't without merit (as other sources indicate the "ripped apart" problem), but I'll accept one would not be ripped apart by exiting the Humphryes' Hole.
                 
                 
                David:
                You made a claim...I showed you are wrong...will you admit it now?  You SEEMED to in the past but then your renegged and now want to pretend your "ripped apart" objection is valid...but even if it is NOT valid, it is moot.  Try to be clear and give ONE answer.  WHICH IS IT?
                ******
                Pi:
                You want one clear answer?  OK.... even if one would not be torn apart by gravitational tides on crossing the event horizon of the Humphreys' Hole, it would not matter because the model is a failure for other (time dilation related) reasons.
                 
                 
                 
                ----------  previously ----------
                >>David:
                and then you said it would HAVE to mean the earth would be heated up too much,
                #####
                Pi:
                Let's set the record straight on this one. YOU suggested a universe 30x smaller.>>
                ------ end previous ------
                 
                 
                David:
                Actually, that was RH's suggestion.  He actually said 50 times but I think he was (in 1994) thinking of the U as being 20mly in radius.   It was (IIRC) one of two very simple assumptions in his theory.  1) the U is bounded, as we normally think of matter within space; and 2) its mass was at one point within a sphere with a radius of less than 450mly...which would be the maximum size needed (the Schwartschild Radius) for it to have the traits of a black/white hole with an EH.  If it were to be collapsing, that would make it a black hole.  If it would be expanding (as we observe it IS) then it was once a white hole. 
                ******
                Pi:
                Regardless, I'm not the one who initiated the idea.  All I did was to point out the consequences.
                 
                 
                 
                ---- Pi previously ---- 
                >> I simply applied that to the solar system (which is, after all, part of the universe) and pointed out if the sun were 30x closer, we would get 900x the energy from the sun we do now.>>
                David: 
                IF the Sun were the same temp then...and acc. to RH...the period would be only for part of one DAY. 
                ******
                Pi:
                There is no evidence the sun would not be the same temperature, and I'm quite certain it wouldn't take a day to destroy life with that kind of exposure.
                 
                BTW, how does Humphreys relate the formation of the sun to Einstein's theories?  Oh yeah.... another miracle, I'm sure.
                 
                 
                ----- Pi previously ----- 
                >> (In fact, Earth over 10x closer to the sun than the planet Mercury.) I'm not going to bother trying to calculate what would happen but would be willing to bet life would be vaporized very quickly.
                >>
                David:
                And I then answered YOU...and you ignored my answer.  First there was no human or animal life on Earth when this would have been the case.  It was before the 4th day, acc. to RH's theory.  So none of it would be "vaporized."
                *******
                Pi:
                According to the basis of Humphreys' model, the Bible, plant life was created on Day 3.  Even if the Earth were cool enough for animals to survive by days 5 and 6 (which I seriously doubt), vegetation would have been destroyed.  How long does animal life survive without vegetation?
                 
                 
                 
                David:
                 The period of time of it being nearer would have been very very short (perhaps part of one Earth day) and we don't know if God may have had a "warm up time" needed for the Earth or if he purposely caused one for the Sun.  And of course if God wanted to keep the Earth and Sun at a fixed distance while the rest of the U expanded...or if He wanted to put His hand over the Earth to shield it from any heat effects, He most certainly could do that without your permission and without it being in any way a violation of His nature.  If all you have left (to save your silly idea about the starlight "problem") is "the Earth would be too close to the Sun for part of one day and would be heated too much"...then you have very little left to stand on.
                ******
                Pi:
                If all you have left to save your silly ideas about Humphreys' model is miracle after miracle after miracle, then you have very little with a scientific basis to stand on.   Why even bother?
                 
                 
                 
                ----- previously -----
                >>David:
                and then I answered that objection as well.
                #####
                Pi:
                Yeah.... by completely ignoring that Humphreys' model is alleged to work within the scientific bounds of Einstein's theories and invoking multiple miracles. >>
                ----- end previous -----
                 

                David:
                RH has not said there were no miracles.  He said THE OPPOSITE.  Try actually READING HIS BOOK.  He simply has said that if God made all the matter of the U within a certain size and then expanded it outward (miraculously) then the science of relativity would DEMAND that there would indeed be time differentials.
                ######
                Pi:
                If God is performing miracles, the science becomes irrelevant and unreliable.
                 
                 
                 
                 
                David:
                  You have mealely-mouthed your own position about this point...first admitting it WOULD cause massive time differentials and then back-tracking.  SO WHAT IS YOUR POSITION, PI??? 
                #####
                Pi:
                My position has always been that a sufficient concentration of mass will cause "massive time differentials."  That has never been the question.  The question is whether or not one can make those time differentials work (within the constraints of Einstein's theories) in such a way that 13.7 billion years in the rest of the universe can coincide with 6000 years on Earth.  It can't.
                 
                 
                David:
                And BTW, maybe you or some other "scientist" could tell us exactly what YOU think is the NON-miraculous cause that made matter expand outward from the small diameter it was at the beginning.
                #####
                Pi:
                A temperature of 180,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 F is a pretty good start.
                 
                 
                David:
                They call it "dark energy" but that is just their stupid ruse to try to pretend they have some naturalistic answer for what force exceeded the tremendous gravity which would have existed at the beginning.
                #####
                Pi:
                What gravity?  The force of gravity depends on mass and mass didn't yet exist.
                 
                 
                 
                David:
                They DON'T have any natural answer.  It is just a pretense.  Just like the other pretenses they have for the origin of matter/energy and the origin of life.  You AGREE that those ARE pretenses, don't you Pi?
                #####
                Pi:
                If by "pretense" you mean "speculative" then I agree.
                 
                 
                 
                 ----- previous -----
                >>David:
                You ADMITTED that there WOULD be massive time dilation if the U was bounded and cosmic objects passed through an event horizon while Earth was inside the white hole.
                #####
                Pi:
                More precisely, I said that with a universe of the suggested mass and the Earth at the center as long as the mass was within 470 million light years (IIRC) of Earth. I also said that spreading that mass out to a billion light years would reduce Earth time dilation to less than 8x that at the edge.
                >>
                ----- end previous ----
                 
                 
                David:
                You are making a silly mistake.  We are not talking merely about differences in GRAVITY.
                #####
                Pi:
                You are making a silly mistake.  I specifically stated "TIME DILATION" not "GRAVITY." 
                 
                BTW, I went back and checked.  The actual calculation wasn't 8x, it was 0.723.  In other words, with a radius of a billion light years, the time dilation on Earth would be such that for a billion years at the edge of the universe, 723 million would pass on Earth.
                 
                 
                 
                David:
                  We are talking about a MASSIVE time dilation that happens ONLY very near the EH of a black/white hole.
                #####
                Pi:
                And inside the event horizon.  Time dilation disappears pretty quickly once one starts moving outward from the event horizon.
                 
                 
                 
                David:
                  Your calc. is perhaps relavent to gravity (I'm not sure) and the "normal" effect that gravity differentials will have on time...but it is not pertinent to the situation of an object passing through the EH of a black/white hole!  Things get WEIRD at that point.  That is what Hawking described with his "astronaut" example who could look back and see a distant clock spinning like an electric fan.  Perhaps if you would actually READ RH's material you'd see that he clarifies this for you.  He said on pg. 21 that time at the edge of the U (using the kind of calc. you are using) would be only a "few percent" faster than at Earth,
                #####
                Pi:
                My calculation was specifically relevant to time dilation.  Actually, I did two calculations.  The first showed that, given the mass of the universe you provided, clocks on Earth would be stopped cold as long as the radius of the universe is 470 million light years or less.  The second showed that with the same universe expanding to a billion light year radius, clocks on Earth would be running within a few percent of those at the edge.... just as Humphreys says.
                 
                 
                David:
                 if all you were considering was the direct effect of gravity (presuming the Earth was near the center of the U).  But the massive time differentials happen as an object passes through an EH. 
                ######
                Pi:
                Remember me asking about the event horizon when the universe had a radius of a billion light years?  Well, you didn't seem to be able to provide it, so I did my own calculation.  What I found out is that at a radius of a billion light years, there is no event horizon.
                 
                 
                 
                ----- previous  ------
                >>David:
                That does solve your objection re. light from stars/supernovas. ..without using "apparent age."
                #####
                Pi:
                Not by a long shot. The most distant supernova is over 11 billion light years from Earth. Why don't you describe for us how it gets from 1 billion to 11 billion in only 6000 Earth years.... keeping in mind my previous calculation.>>
                ----- end previous -------
                 
                 
                 
                David:
                Yes it does solve it.  There are 2 factors in play.  One is the expansion rate of the U can be faster than the SOL.  Even non-creationists say that.  Maybe you should read Alan Guth's "inflation" idea.  He said (acc. to RH) that at one point the "inflation" rate was 10e20 times faster than SOL! 
                ####
                Pi:
                Maybe you should.....
                1)  At the time of inflation, the universe was less than a millionth of a trillionth of a trillionth of a second old.  There is no violation of Einstein because mass did not yet exist.  On the other hand, Humphreys' model has mass expanding faster than light which is a violation of Einstein.
                2)  Guth's proposal has been tested and held up to testing.  Humphreys' model has not.
                 
                 
                 
                David:
                 You have no problem if God moves something faster than SOL do you?  MIRACLES HAPPEN IN CREATION.
                ######
                Pi:
                Then stop trying to explain them with science.  It doesn't work.
                 
                 
                 
                --snip--
                David: 
                The second factor you neglect to consider is that when the EH shrank inward, as it reached Earth, then time on Earth would "slow" (relative to time for cosmic objects) to a point of almost stopping, while it continued at a faster pace for cosmic objects.  It is not so much that the OBJECT passed the EH, that explains the time dilation, but when the EH shrinks inward and passes EARTH.  So will you agree Pi, that when Earth nears and then passes through the EH of a (hypothetical) white hole in a bounded U, then indeed vast amounts of time would pass for objects outside the EH, as compared to the Earth which is inside it?
                ####
                Pi:
                Yep.  And, by the time the radius of the universe reaches a billion light years, the event horizon would have passed Earth.
                 
                 
                 
                David:
                  I believe you have already admitted to this, but you have trouble in (incorrectly) believing that things would have to be ripped apart, or that there would be a heat problem.  But if you set those 2 objections aside for the moment...then you DO agree that the time problem is resolved...right?
                ####
                Pi:
                Nope.  By the time the universe reaches a billion light years radius, Earth time will be about 72% the rate of the rest of the universe.  The light from distant objects does not indicate motion faster than light, therefore the evidence does not support a claim they ever had such velocities.  For that reason, the time problem remains.
                 
                 
                David:
                  You have already admitted this in the past but it seems you are being ambivalent now about hanging on to that idea.  Which is your real answer???
                ######
                Pi:
                I thought it would be clear by now.  Here's my REAL answer:
                In the Humphreys scenario, time would be stopped on Earth as long as the universe is less than 470 million light years in diameter.  However, by the time the universe expands to a billion light years in diameter, Earth clocks would be moving at 72% the speed of clocks in the rest of the universe.  Therefore, it will take billions of years (as measured on Earth) for those objects 10 and 12 billion light years from Earth to get there.
                 
                 
                 
                 
                ----- pi previously ----- 
                >>We can even look closer to home.... Sn1987a would have a time dilation factor similar to Earth's since, by galactic standards, it's pretty close.>>
                ----- end previous -----
                 
                 
                David:
                Again, you fail to "get it".  The time dilation is not just about "how close is the object to Earth or the U's center?"  That calc. (acc. to RH) only can show "a few percent" difference in time.  The question is whether as the EH shrank inward would there have been a time when SN1987a could have been outside the EH while Earth was still inside it.  If so, then massive time differences would HAVE to occur. 
                ######
                Pi:
                I get it just fine....
                 
                Go ahead and SHOW Sn1987a was outside the event horizon while Earth was inside it when the Sn event took place.  The FACT is that, with a universe of a radius over a billion light years, Sn1987a and Earth will experience approximately the same time dilation.  Go ahead, David.... show the difference between time dilation on Earth with that at Sn1987a when the diameter of the universe is a billion light years.
                 
                Drop this "if Sn1987a is outside the event horizon and Earth is inside it" stuff and make your case.
                 
                 
                 
                ----- pi previously ---- 
                >> At 167,000 ly with an 8x time dilation factor, it would take at least 20,000 (Earth) years for light from that event to reach Earth.
                >> ------  end previous
                David:
                This makes no sense at all.  Your "8x factor" is pure fiction invented by you. 
                ####
                Pi:
                It is an erroneous recollection.... the actual number is 72.3% and it's not a fiction, it's a direct result of the calculations already presented.  BTW, that would mean over 120,000 years.  Keep in mind, time dilation doesn't matter if Earth and Sn1987a are both inside the event horizon or they are both a significant distance from it.  The only really significant dilation takes place when they are on opposite sides of the horizon.
                 
                 
                 
                David:
                 It certainly is not any fair consequence of RH's model.
                #####
                Pi:
                No, but it IS a "fair consequence" of Einstein's model.
                 
                 
                 
                 
                David:
                  The reality is that if there was any time in the past where Earth was on one side of the EH and SN1987a was on the other side, then there could be a vast time differential.  If indeed Earth is near the center of a bounded U that is expanding out from a white hole (and the evidence surely suggests that) then the natural physics of relativity would dictate that there was a time dilation and Earth time would not be the same as time at SN1987a. 
                ######
                Pi:
                Good.  Now, all you need do is show they were on opposite sides of the event horizon at the time Sn1987a went supernova.  I'll be looking forward to it.
                 
                 
                 
                ---- previous -----
                >>David:
                I guess you have time for patty-caking but not for meaningful discussion.
                #####
                Pi:
                The comment about Jerry took less than 5 minutes. I spent more time than that on some sentences in this post.....
                >> ------ end previous ------
                David:
                Well what I have observed is that when I give you a "big bite to chew on" (your phrasing) you stall...
                #####
                Pi:
                It turned out the first time I looked at the equation, I found out this wasn't more than a light snack.  Frankly, Brown is harder.
                 
                 
                 
                David:
                and then pretend later that you already gave a good answer.
                #####
                Pi:
                Your inability to comprehend the consequences doesn't diminish the quality of the refutation.
                 
                 
                David:
                  That's what you've done historically with other topics and you are trying to do it again now...and I'm calling you on it.   
                 ######
                Pi:
                Call away.
                 
                Let me know when you have established the time the event horizon would cross Earth.  My guess is about the time the universe is around 470 million light years in diameter.

                 
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