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Re: [cnfractal_music] Re: A piano collection

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  • Diego Penalver
    Names: The Fractal Piano Collection I . : From the archives of the CNFMgroup. ....Diego.. . Names: Pianissimilarities Key Similarities Forte Fractals Ivory
    Message 1 of 28 , Apr 30, 2001
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      Names:
      The Fractal Piano Collection I . : From the archives of the CNFMgroup.

      ....Diego.. .



      Names:
      Pianissimilarities
      Key Similarities
      Forte Fractals
      Ivory Power
      Fractalicious
      Self-Similar Sounds

      ...Tim...


      >
      >
      >
      >>To me, the name sounds a bit generic... A few alternatives:
      >> - The Ivory Automaton
      >> - The Ivory Algorithm
      >> - Algorithms in (for?) Ivory
      >> - Black & White Automata
      >> - Wassamatta, Automata?
      >> - The Digital Player Piano
      >> - Music for Fourteen-Fingered Pianists
      >> - A Study of Generated Piano Works
      >> - Generated Piano Works
      >> - A Collection of Generated Piano Works
      >> - Pianist Purgatory
      >> - Pianist Punishment
      >> - The Pianist's Surprise
      >>
      >>Please forgive my stream of consciousness, here!
      >
      >
      >Lets keep a list going:
      >
      >-The Fractal Piano: studies of the CN-Fractal group
      >-Ivory Fractal Picture Music
      >-Generations: fractal and generated Piano pieces.
      >-Plastic and Ivory: Computer generated piano pieces
      >-TUNE THAT PIANO! :-)
      >-
      >
      >
      >Any one with more?
      >
      >Tim
      >(burned out)
      >>
      >>Shawn
      >>
      >
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    • Diego Penalver
      Hi all, I posted a second attempt to the design cover with a little twist from Tom s suggestions, the name can easely be changed as decided, another graphic
      Message 2 of 28 , Apr 30, 2001
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        Hi all,
        I posted a second attempt to the design cover with a little twist from Tom's
        suggestions, the name can easely be changed as decided, another graphic
        design would be gladly accepted from the masters inhouse. Tom are you trying
        something with this ? Help!!! ....

        regards,
        Diego.
      • Tim Thompson
        Names: Pianissimilarities Key Similarities Forte Fractals Ivory Power Fractalicious Self-Similar Sounds ...Tim...
        Message 3 of 28 , Apr 30, 2001
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          Names:
          Pianissimilarities
          Key Similarities
          Forte Fractals
          Ivory Power
          Fractalicious
          Self-Similar Sounds

          ...Tim...
        • jasko.a@bih.net.ba
          Hi Tim and all, I see that word Ivory has been used here few times in suggesting names for our CD. I know what the word means, but I do not understand its
          Message 4 of 28 , May 1 2:34 AM
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            Hi Tim and all,

            I see that word "Ivory" has been used here few times in suggesting
            names for our CD. I know what the word means, but I do not understand
            its relation and meaning in "Ivory Power", "Ivory Algorithm" etc.

            Can you explain thisto me?

            Thanks,

            Jasminko

            --- In cnfractal_music@y..., Tim Thompson <tjt@n...> wrote:
            > Names:
            > Pianissimilarities
            > Key Similarities
            > Forte Fractals
            > Ivory Power
            > Fractalicious
            > Self-Similar Sounds
            >
            > ...Tim...
          • Tim Conrardy
            ... Lets keep a list going: -The Fractal Piano: studies of the CN-Fractal group -Ivory Fractal Picture Music -Generations: fractal and generated Piano pieces.
            Message 5 of 28 , May 1 6:03 AM
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              >To me, the name sounds a bit generic... A few alternatives:
              > - The Ivory Automaton
              > - The Ivory Algorithm
              > - Algorithms in (for?) Ivory
              > - Black & White Automata
              > - Wassamatta, Automata?
              > - The Digital Player Piano
              > - Music for Fourteen-Fingered Pianists
              > - A Study of Generated Piano Works
              > - Generated Piano Works
              > - A Collection of Generated Piano Works
              > - Pianist Purgatory
              > - Pianist Punishment
              > - The Pianist's Surprise
              >
              >Please forgive my stream of consciousness, here!


              Lets keep a list going:

              -The Fractal Piano: studies of the CN-Fractal group
              -Ivory Fractal Picture Music
              -Generations: fractal and generated Piano pieces.
              -Plastic and Ivory: Computer generated piano pieces
              -TUNE THAT PIANO! :-)
              -


              Any one with more?

              Tim
              (burned out)
              >
              >Shawn
              >

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            • pjfjacks@swbell.net
              ivory as in the material that is/used to be used to make the white piano keys... Phil J. ... understand
              Message 6 of 28 , May 1 6:22 AM
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                ivory as in the material that is/used to be used to make the white
                piano keys...

                Phil J.




                --- In cnfractal_music@y..., jasko.a@b... wrote:
                > Hi Tim and all,
                >
                > I see that word "Ivory" has been used here few times in suggesting
                > names for our CD. I know what the word means, but I do not
                understand
                > its relation and meaning in "Ivory Power", "Ivory Algorithm" etc.
                >
                > Can you explain thisto me?
                >
                > Thanks,
                >
                > Jasminko
                >
                > --- In cnfractal_music@y..., Tim Thompson <tjt@n...> wrote:
                > > Names:
                > > Pianissimilarities
                > > Key Similarities
                > > Forte Fractals
                > > Ivory Power
                > > Fractalicious
                > > Self-Similar Sounds
                > >
                > > ...Tim...
              • Tom
                ... [snip] ... Good ones! We need to set up a poll after we narrow these down a bit. - ePiano - Generation P - Eclectasy (eclectic + ecstasy) - Planet Piano -
                Message 7 of 28 , May 1 9:53 AM
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                  --- In cnfractal_music@y..., bulens@p... wrote:
                  [snip]

                  > To me, the name sounds a bit generic... A few alternatives:
                  > - The Ivory Automaton
                  > - The Ivory Algorithm
                  > - Algorithms in (for?) Ivory
                  > - Black & White Automata
                  > - Wassamatta, Automata?
                  > - The Digital Player Piano
                  > - Music for Fourteen-Fingered Pianists
                  > - A Study of Generated Piano Works
                  > - Generated Piano Works
                  > - A Collection of Generated Piano Works
                  > - Pianist Purgatory
                  > - Pianist Punishment
                  > - The Pianist's Surprise

                  Good ones! We need to set up a poll after we narrow these down a bit.

                  - ePiano
                  - Generation P
                  - Eclectasy (eclectic + ecstasy)
                  - Planet Piano
                  - Planus Generativus
                  - Classicus Collaborat
                  - Classical Collaberation
                  - Classics in Fractal Major
                  - The Pedantic Pianist
                  - Generative Collective Classics
                  - You Can't Play This!
                  - Keyboard Capers
                  - The 'Fracalated' Keyboardist
                  - Fractured Keyboards
                  - Fractal Faction
                  I quit! ;)

                  -tom
                • Tom
                  ... from Tom s ... graphic ... you trying ... OK, let s take a look.
                  Message 8 of 28 , May 1 5:20 PM
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                    --- In cnfractal_music@y..., "Diego Penalver" <platonica@i...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi all,
                    > I posted a second attempt to the design cover with a little twist
                    from Tom's
                    > suggestions, the name can easely be changed as decided, another
                    graphic
                    > design would be gladly accepted from the masters inhouse. Tom are
                    you trying
                    > something with this ? Help!!! ....

                    OK, let's take a look.
                  • Phil Jackson
                    Tom and all, Probably a good idea! Lot s of creative thinking going on here. Phil J. ... From: Tom To: cnfractal_music@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, May 01,
                    Message 9 of 28 , May 1 7:25 PM
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                      Tom and all,

                      Probably a good idea! Lot's of creative thinking going on here.

                      Phil J.

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Tom
                      To: cnfractal_music@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 11:53 AM
                      Subject: [cnfractal_music] Re: A piano collection


                      --- In cnfractal_music@y..., bulens@p... wrote:
                      [snip]

                      > To me, the name sounds a bit generic... A few alternatives:
                      > - The Ivory Automaton
                      > - The Ivory Algorithm
                      > - Algorithms in (for?) Ivory
                      > - Black & White Automata
                      > - Wassamatta, Automata?
                      > - The Digital Player Piano
                      > - Music for Fourteen-Fingered Pianists
                      > - A Study of Generated Piano Works
                      > - Generated Piano Works
                      > - A Collection of Generated Piano Works
                      > - Pianist Purgatory
                      > - Pianist Punishment
                      > - The Pianist's Surprise

                      Good ones! We need to set up a poll after we narrow these down a bit.

                      - ePiano
                      - Generation P
                      - Eclectasy (eclectic + ecstasy)
                      - Planet Piano
                      - Planus Generativus
                      - Classicus Collaborat
                      - Classical Collaberation
                      - Classics in Fractal Major
                      - The Pedantic Pianist
                      - Generative Collective Classics
                      - You Can't Play This!
                      - Keyboard Capers
                      - The 'Fracalated' Keyboardist
                      - Fractured Keyboards
                      - Fractal Faction
                      I quit! ;)

                      -tom


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                    • Phil Jackson
                      Hi Tom and all, I would agree with mp3.com. Their new select artists or whatever they call it program is $19.99 a month. Given past experiences with mp3.com
                      Message 10 of 28 , May 1 7:48 PM
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                        Hi Tom and all,
                        I would agree with mp3.com. Their new "select artists" or whatever they call it program is $19.99 a month.
                        Given past experiences with mp3.com - what would this buy us and for how long could we sustain such an
                        investment given past results.. the returns have been very, very small - www.mp3.com/CNFractalMusic is showing $205.18 so far. It has been there for about a
                        year and a half, almost. And that's divided 13 ways amongst those who participated. Just don't think it could generate enough revenue to sustain itself, and could
                        become a drain. In all fairness, the current kitty at mp3.com is for the 13 original participants, including Tom.

                        Any thoughts from you all would be appreciated, esp. those who were involved in the first CNFractal efforts at mp3.com. The Tangentusers group's solution to a part of the problem was that any proceeds would be donated to charity - this certainly eases a burden and benefits others (or will, as soon as proceeds are enough to warrent mp3.com sending a check - must be >= $50.00 US, I think..)

                        Please give this some thought,

                        Phil J.



                        If there were a vote, I'd pick mp3.com. Even tho' it takes up to a
                        week to get a title published, they are quite established. A question
                        does arise tho': Since there is preference for paying members, is
                        there anything in the 'pot' that could be used? Or, would someone be
                        willing to play banker and take check's or money orders so cnFractal
                        or some entity could buy a spot on mp3.com?

                        -tom



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                      • Phil Jackson
                        Hi Diego and all, I think Diego has done some nice graphical wizardry here! Looks nice to my eyes! Phil J. ... From: Diego Penalver To:
                        Message 11 of 28 , May 1 8:24 PM
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                          Hi Diego and all,
                          I think Diego has done some nice graphical wizardry here! Looks nice to my eyes!

                          Phil J.

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Diego Penalver
                          To: cnfractal_music@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 8:50 PM
                          Subject: Re: [cnfractal_music] Re: A piano collection



                          Hi all,
                          I posted a second attempt to the design cover with a little twist from Tom's
                          suggestions, the name can easely be changed as decided, another graphic
                          design would be gladly accepted from the masters inhouse. Tom are you trying
                          something with this ? Help!!! ....

                          regards,
                          Diego.


                          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Diego Penalver
                          Hellmuth, Tim and all, Quite agree with you guys. These programs for generating compositions will eventually evolve in a manner that would allow the composer
                          Message 12 of 28 , May 1 9:15 PM
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                            Hellmuth, Tim and all,

                            Quite agree with you guys. These programs for generating compositions will
                            eventually evolve in a manner that would allow the composer to have more
                            control over the overall form of the comp. through the level of variations
                            of the material in generation and down to the level of motive and note
                            expresion, also sound control is very important, if you think of the inmense
                            possibilities of the computer as an instrument. All of this is desired at
                            the moment and perhaps by means of this interacction between users and
                            developers we can come up with this evolution for the media. Computer
                            composition, be it fractaly , algorithmically or otherwise generated, is a
                            new way of making music, and probably is now at it's infancy... It does
                            require from us as composers quite a new approach, which is, I believe,
                            based on a certain level of abstraction, this being a perception of a
                            gestalt of different tipes of music that we envision and the way to make
                            this gestalt become a real form through the use of this remarkable
                            calculating machine: The Computer.

                            My two cents, hope to hear more of this very central topic to our group!.

                            Regards,
                            Diego.


                            >--- In cnfractal_music@y..., <msg@m...> wrote:
                            >your suggestion brings up a thought that has been on my mind for a
                            >long time and even more since i joined both cnfractal and atari-midi.
                            >>
                            >> is it enough just to generate fractal music and simply record it?
                            >>
                            >> personally, i have doubts.
                            >> pieces of music. again IMHO, most of the pieces i downloaded from
                            >> our sites (cnfractal and atari-midi) fall into the same category...
                            >>
                            >> i think that fractal or generated music yields unheard and
                            >interesting things, but it needs a lot of work of a human brain to
                            >make it a good piece of music.
                            >
                            >> looking forward to comments, hellmuth
                            >
                            >Hi Hellmuth
                            >You bring up a HELL of an issue :-)This has been my concern as well.
                            >One comment from an Atari-Midi member was that he thought Fractal
                            >music by itself to be just not really music as it wanders and flows,
                            >but you soon loose interest and has no meaning in the music. Sure, it
                            >might be neat to listen to...for a few minutes, but the human
                            >attention span wanders and soon loses interest if there is nothing
                            >there to capture it. Of course some of use who are used to this type
                            >of music can listen to this for hours without blinking an ear (I can
                            >just put on FINGERS and let it generate stuff in the background)But
                            >to create a Piece of Music you really need to edit it, perhaps even
                            >add parts by hand, which has been my standpoint. The Piano piece I
                            >submitted for the CD ( FairHaven) was actually my first generatated
                            >Only piece, as I usually edit and put in other stuff to make it more
                            >interesting. Also, the Midi files you hear are not the version that
                            >would go on my CD, but I also add samples, and live instruments to
                            >the mix as well (guitar)So it is quite different then the midi files.
                            >For example "Patterns" sounds different on my CD, because I add more
                            >samples (soundfonts) and also a slide guitar and processing as well.
                            >
                            >So goood subject...any more takers?
                            >
                            >
                            >Tim
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
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                            >
                            >
                          • jacky schreiber
                            Hi: where is this, I want to take a look.. Is anyone making a complete list of names so far? best jacky ... De: Diego Penalver
                            Message 13 of 28 , May 2 4:22 AM
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                              Hi:

                              where is this, I want to take a look..

                              Is anyone making a complete list of names so far?

                              best

                              jacky

                              ----- Mensaje original -----
                              De: "Diego Penalver" <platonica@...>
                              Para: <cnfractal_music@yahoogroups.com>
                              Enviado: lunes, 30 de abril de 2001 21:50
                              Asunto: Re: [cnfractal_music] Re: A piano collection


                              >
                              > Hi all,
                              > I posted a second attempt to the design cover with a little twist from
                              Tom's
                              > suggestions, the name can easely be changed as decided, another graphic
                              > design would be gladly accepted from the masters inhouse. Tom are you
                              trying
                              > something with this ? Help!!! ....
                              >
                              > regards,
                              > Diego.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              >
                              >
                              >
                            • msg@matucana.de
                              hi shawn & everybody ... a stream of consciousness is good - no destructive phrases her, please. i would like to add: - the fractal piano - fractal keys - the
                              Message 14 of 28 , May 2 9:32 AM
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                                hi shawn & everybody

                                > To me, the name sounds a bit generic... A few alternatives:
                                > - The Ivory Automaton
                                > - The Ivory Algorithm
                                > - Algorithms in (for?) Ivory
                                > - Black & White Automata
                                > - Wassamatta, Automata?
                                > - The Digital Player Piano
                                > - Music for Fourteen-Fingered Pianists
                                > - A Study of Generated Piano Works
                                > - Generated Piano Works
                                > - A Collection of Generated Piano Works
                                > - Pianist Purgatory
                                > - Pianist Punishment
                                > - The Pianist's Surprise
                                >
                                > Please forgive my stream of consciousness, here!

                                a stream of consciousness is good - no destructive phrases her, please.

                                i would like to add:
                                - the fractal piano
                                - fractal keys
                                - the fractured piano
                                - phantom piano music
                                - silicon piano
                                - a piano generation

                                btw: the cover looks good.

                                hellmuth
                              • Diego Penalver
                                Hi All, Phil said:
                                Message 15 of 28 , May 2 2:45 PM
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                                  Hi All,

                                  Phil said:
                                  <This is musical "clay". Some of you are creating "statues" with it while
                                  I am still trying to model an "ashtray" out of the material! The piano
                                  pieces so far are very, very nice!


                                  Phil J.>
                                  ---------

                                  You can call it "The Smoking Piano", but I would like to hear some of your
                                  ashtrays in this collection.. :-)

                                  I like the sound of the files so far with Tim's and Shawns contributions.
                                  Very colorful music with just one instrument.

                                  Shawns purist Sonic-Fractals sound very nice. I do agree that the second
                                  entry is more elaborated, even rythmically, (but I can't make my mind which
                                  is my favorite, the first one not so embellished, is very smooth..)

                                  Tim,s fresh pentatonics brings to me an oriental flavor that flows so nicely
                                  in the air with it's rosary of fast notes, here and there, your first PURE
                                  generative?: keep it going!! It''s a Fair Heaven..

                                  I Made a folder for all entries so far, and listening together gives me an
                                  anticipation feeling of what a fine album they can become.. Style? well it's
                                  'Art Music' . is'nt it?.. And it does seem to have a common colour, not only
                                  instrumental but musical as well.

                                  Saludos,
                                  Diego.
                                • Gavin Stevens
                                  This looks like a fairly complete list of name suggestions, so I will add my suggestion KeyScapes here. Hellmuth: Have you thought about submitting your
                                  Message 16 of 28 , May 2 5:34 PM
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                                    This looks like a fairly complete list of name suggestions, so I will
                                    add my suggestion "KeyScapes" here.

                                    Hellmuth: Have you thought about submitting your piece "Infinity Domain"
                                    for the Piano CD? I ran it through my digital piano on max. reverb & it
                                    sounded great.

                                    Gavin.



                                    msg@... wrote:

                                    > hi shawn & everybody
                                    >
                                    >> To me, the name sounds a bit generic... A few alternatives:
                                    >> - The Ivory Automaton
                                    >> - The Ivory Algorithm
                                    >> - Algorithms in (for?) Ivory
                                    >> - Black & White Automata
                                    >> - Wassamatta, Automata?
                                    >> - The Digital Player Piano
                                    >> - Music for Fourteen-Fingered Pianists
                                    >> - A Study of Generated Piano Works
                                    >> - Generated Piano Works
                                    >> - A Collection of Generated Piano Works
                                    >> - Pianist Purgatory
                                    >> - Pianist Punishment
                                    >> - The Pianist's Surprise
                                    >>
                                    >> Please forgive my stream of consciousness, here!
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > a stream of consciousness is good - no destructive phrases her, please.
                                    >
                                    > i would like to add:
                                    > - the fractal piano
                                    > - fractal keys
                                    > - the fractured piano
                                    > - phantom piano music
                                    > - silicon piano
                                    > - a piano generation
                                    >
                                    > btw: the cover looks good.
                                    >
                                    > hellmuth
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                  • msg@matucana.de
                                    hi gavin and everybody, ... first of all, thank you, gavin, for liking infinity domain . your suggestion brings up a thought that has been on my mind for a
                                    Message 17 of 28 , May 3 10:22 AM
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                                      hi gavin and everybody,

                                      > Hellmuth: Have you thought about submitting your piece "Infinity Domain"
                                      > for the Piano CD? I ran it through my digital piano on max. reverb & it
                                      > sounded great.

                                      first of all, thank you, gavin, for liking 'infinity domain'. your
                                      suggestion brings
                                      up a thought that has been on my mind for a long time and even more since i
                                      joined both cnfractal and atari-midi.

                                      is it enough just to generate fractal music and simply record it?

                                      personally, i have doubts. taking 'infinity domain', it find it interesting,
                                      but
                                      rather static (moreover, it is not fractal but comes from a computer file
                                      that
                                      i processed with msg). i have a similar piece that comes from the same
                                      source ('love poem'). IMO it is much better since i edited it quite a lot.
                                      however, i consider neither 'infinity domain' nor 'love poem' as finished
                                      pieces of music. again IMHO, most of the pieces i downloaded from
                                      our sites (cnfractal and atari-midi) fall into the same category...

                                      i think that fractal or generated music yields unheard and interesting
                                      things, but it needs a lot of work of a human brain to make it a good
                                      piece of music.

                                      so, i would prefer to submit 'love poem' although it is not fractal and even
                                      not purely generated any more. moreover, i am reluctant to take up a
                                      whole seventh of a cd with a ten minute piece...

                                      looking forward to comments, hellmuth
                                    • Gavin Stevens
                                      Hi Hellmuth & all, ... * I usually edit pieces that I create by generation for various reasons, although the 5 Blues I am offering for the CD have only been
                                      Message 18 of 28 , May 3 5:51 PM
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                                        Hi Hellmuth & all,


                                        msg@... wrote:

                                        > hi gavin and everybody,
                                        >
                                        >> Hellmuth: Have you thought about submitting your piece "Infinity Domain"
                                        >> for the Piano CD? I ran it through my digital piano on max. reverb & it
                                        >> sounded great.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > first of all, thank you, gavin, for liking 'infinity domain'. your
                                        > suggestion brings
                                        > up a thought that has been on my mind for a long time and even more since i
                                        > joined both cnfractal and atari-midi.
                                        >
                                        > is it enough just to generate fractal music and simply record it?

                                        * I usually edit pieces that I create by generation for various reasons,
                                        although the 5 Blues I am offering for the CD have only been altered for
                                        purposes of a readable piano score, but are otherwise as QFC made them.

                                        >
                                        >
                                        > personally, i have doubts. taking 'infinity domain', it find it interesting,
                                        > but
                                        > rather static (moreover, it is not fractal but comes from a computer file
                                        > that
                                        > i processed with msg)

                                        * I think that the CD is for generated music, rather than for
                                        specifically fractal related music.

                                        > . i have a similar piece that comes from the same
                                        > source ('love poem'). IMO it is much better since i edited it quite a lot.
                                        > however, i consider neither 'infinity domain' nor 'love poem' as finished
                                        > pieces of music. again IMHO, most of the pieces i downloaded from
                                        > our sites (cnfractal and atari-midi) fall into the same category...
                                        >
                                        > i think that fractal or generated music yields unheard and interesting
                                        > things, but it needs a lot of work of a human brain to make it a good
                                        > piece of music.

                                        * In general, based on my own experience, I would agree with you, but
                                        just occasionally, the computer gets it right all by itself...

                                        >
                                        >
                                        > so, i would prefer to submit 'love poem' although it is not fractal and even
                                        > not purely generated any more. moreover, i am reluctant to take up a
                                        > whole seventh of a cd with a ten minute piece...

                                        * I would like to have a listen to "Love Poem", even if it does turn out
                                        to be too long for the CD.

                                        >
                                        >
                                        > looking forward to comments, hellmuth

                                        * I hope you find my thoughts of interest,
                                        Gavin.

                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                      • tconrardy@hotmail.com
                                        ... your suggestion brings up a thought that has been on my mind for a long time and even more since i joined both cnfractal and atari-midi. ... interesting
                                        Message 19 of 28 , May 4 6:34 AM
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                                          --- In cnfractal_music@y..., <msg@m...> wrote:
                                          your suggestion brings up a thought that has been on my mind for a
                                          long time and even more since i joined both cnfractal and atari-midi.
                                          >
                                          > is it enough just to generate fractal music and simply record it?
                                          >
                                          > personally, i have doubts.
                                          > pieces of music. again IMHO, most of the pieces i downloaded from
                                          > our sites (cnfractal and atari-midi) fall into the same category...
                                          >
                                          > i think that fractal or generated music yields unheard and
                                          interesting things, but it needs a lot of work of a human brain to
                                          make it a good piece of music.

                                          > looking forward to comments, hellmuth

                                          Hi Hellmuth
                                          You bring up a HELL of an issue :-)This has been my concern as well.
                                          One comment from an Atari-Midi member was that he thought Fractal
                                          music by itself to be just not really music as it wanders and flows,
                                          but you soon loose interest and has no meaning in the music. Sure, it
                                          might be neat to listen to...for a few minutes, but the human
                                          attention span wanders and soon loses interest if there is nothing
                                          there to capture it. Of course some of use who are used to this type
                                          of music can listen to this for hours without blinking an ear (I can
                                          just put on FINGERS and let it generate stuff in the background)But
                                          to create a Piece of Music you really need to edit it, perhaps even
                                          add parts by hand, which has been my standpoint. The Piano piece I
                                          submitted for the CD ( FairHaven) was actually my first generatated
                                          Only piece, as I usually edit and put in other stuff to make it more
                                          interesting. Also, the Midi files you hear are not the version that
                                          would go on my CD, but I also add samples, and live instruments to
                                          the mix as well (guitar)So it is quite different then the midi files.
                                          For example "Patterns" sounds different on my CD, because I add more
                                          samples (soundfonts) and also a slide guitar and processing as well.

                                          So goood subject...any more takers?


                                          Tim
                                        • Forrest Fang
                                          I agree with Tim C. and Diego-- The computer is really more of a facilitator than a composer. It still takes a composer s ear to sort out the intersting from
                                          Message 20 of 28 , May 4 8:42 AM
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                                            I agree with Tim C. and Diego--

                                            The computer is really more of a facilitator than a composer. It still
                                            takes a composer's ear to sort out the intersting from the uninteresting,
                                            and to steer the output or parameters of the program into something that
                                            resembles music to the user. I like to the think of the process as
                                            somewhat analogous to musique concrete, and the happy accidents that can
                                            occur when you strike upon an intersting juxtaposition of sounds. A
                                            wholistic approach to fractal music is really necessary, IMO, because you
                                            have to relinquish a certain amount of control of the process to have the
                                            most fun with it.

                                            Just my 2 cents,
                                            Forrest
                                          • Bob Van Belle
                                            Forrest Fang wrote. ... ànd so do I ... we are waiting for some members who disagree, right? I also tend to see the fractal/algorithmic programs that we use,
                                            Message 21 of 28 , May 4 9:54 AM
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                                              Forrest Fang wrote.
                                              > I agree with Tim C. and Diego--
                                              -----

                                              ànd so do I ... we are waiting for some members who disagree, right?
                                              I also tend to see the fractal/algorithmic programs that we use, as a source
                                              of inspiration, and there's a good deal of listening, judging, cutting and
                                              editing
                                              needed afterwards - most of the time, 'cause one may be lucky sometimes to
                                              find
                                              a piece ready for use, accidently.
                                              Still I prefer *these* kind of music generators, above programs such as
                                              Band in a Box, A music generator (the japanese program) etc, where no
                                              efforts
                                              from our side are involved at all.

                                              Learning to use 'our' (given) programs - and this group intuitively seems
                                              to make the natural selection in this respect - gives us the idea
                                              (illusion?) that we
                                              are *creating* too, and that we don't just use 'automata'. This is what the
                                              game
                                              is about, I think.

                                              That makes 2 cents more, then?

                                              Bob.
                                            • Tom
                                              ... wrote: [snip] ... I have a different take here, Bob. Using ChOCh to extract chord data from a fractal image and plugging them into a program is only the
                                              Message 22 of 28 , May 4 12:12 PM
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                                                --- In cnfractal_music@y..., "Bob Van Belle" <robert.van.belle@p...>
                                                wrote:
                                                [snip]

                                                > Still I prefer *these* kind of music generators, above programs
                                                >such as Band in a Box, A music generator (the japanese program) etc,
                                                >where no efforts from our side are involved at all.

                                                I have a different take here, Bob.

                                                Using ChOCh to extract chord data from a fractal image and plugging
                                                them into a program is only the first step. There is quite a bit of
                                                tweaking and tuning. I liken it to the first steps in creating a
                                                sculpture; one has the basic idea for their creation and then applies
                                                one's talents to create a finished piece.

                                                I've spent countless hours over one piece of music, shaping and
                                                molding it, to finally get a finished composition. While one could
                                                simply plug in a few chords, the end result is not usually listened
                                                to through completion and the file is simply deleted. :)

                                                Creating something unique with Ultrafractal requires quite a bit
                                                tweaking, overlaying, color adjusting, etc... A lot goes into
                                                creating something visually appealing. IMHO the same is true with
                                                BIAB, Jammer, AutoComposer, et al. Quite a bit of effort is made to
                                                create something audibly pleasant.

                                                My 2 cents.
                                                -tom
                                              • Phil Jackson
                                                I think my experiences fall somewhere in between Forrests and Shawn.... Probably more in the category of happy accidents as Forrest so aptly said. In no way
                                                Message 23 of 28 , May 4 8:05 PM
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                                                  I think my experiences fall somewhere in between Forrests and Shawn....
                                                  Probably more in the category of "happy accidents" as Forrest so aptly said.
                                                  In no way is this an autocompostion process, but more of an extensive auditioning, changing, experimenting, and selection process. Also, I am not a musically-trained
                                                  person, so I've no way of knowing what must be the proper form or motif to follow as if writing a Haiku, as an example of something that follows a strict form. But a key phrase is "...to have the most fun with it...". The happy accident of generating a pleasing sequence still has that almost child-like magical quality to it - and that is a good thing! Now, what you do with those wonderfull sequences is up to you - not sure that there is a "wrong way" - i.e. must it have three of those followed by 2 of these followed by 4 of this and then 8 of that? This is musical "clay". Some of you are creating "statues" with it while I am still trying to model an "ashtray" out of the material! The piano pieces so far are very, very nice!

                                                  Phil J.








                                                  ---- Original Message -----
                                                  From: Forrest Fang
                                                  To: cnfractal_music@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 10:42 AM
                                                  Subject: Re: [cnfractal_music] Fractal Music: unfinished pieces?


                                                  I agree with Tim C. and Diego--

                                                  The computer is really more of a facilitator than a composer. It still
                                                  takes a composer's ear to sort out the intersting from the uninteresting,
                                                  and to steer the output or parameters of the program into something that
                                                  resembles music to the user. I like to the think of the process as
                                                  somewhat analogous to musique concrete, and the happy accidents that can
                                                  occur when you strike upon an intersting juxtaposition of sounds. A
                                                  wholistic approach to fractal music is really necessary, IMO, because you
                                                  have to relinquish a certain amount of control of the process to have the
                                                  most fun with it.

                                                  Just my 2 cents,
                                                  Forrest


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                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • Phil Jackson
                                                  Hi all, Phil originally said something like:
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , May 5 9:15 PM
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                                                    Hi all,
                                                    Phil originally said something like:


                                                    <This is musical "clay". Some of you are creating "statues" with it while
                                                    I am still trying to model an "ashtray" out of the material
                                                    ---------
                                                    Diego replied:

                                                    You can call it "The Smoking Piano", but I would like to hear some of your
                                                    ashtrays in this collection.. :-)

                                                    I like the sound of the files so far with Tim's and Shawns contributions.
                                                    Very colorful music with just one instrument.

                                                    Shawns purist Sonic-Fractals sound very nice. I do agree that the second
                                                    entry is more elaborated, even rythmically, (but I can't make my mind which
                                                    is my favorite, the first one not so embellished, is very smooth..)

                                                    Tim,s fresh pentatonics brings to me an oriental flavor that flows so nicely
                                                    in the air with it's rosary of fast notes, here and there, your first PURE
                                                    generative?: keep it going!! It''s a Fair Heaven..

                                                    I Made a folder for all entries so far, and listening together gives me an
                                                    anticipation feeling of what a fine album they can become.. Style? well it's
                                                    'Art Music' . is'nt it?.. And it does seem to have a common colour, not only
                                                    instrumental but musical as well.

                                                    Saludos,
                                                    Diego.
                                                    ==========================
                                                    To which Phil now replies:

                                                    You may have your "Smoking Piano" tomorrow, given that it rains and I cannot complete an outside project in my front lawn...

                                                    Yes, the pieces in the folder are excellent - each and every one! I am likely to go off in a completely different direction, though it will be diffcult with only piano, which I generally avoid. Just what direction, I won't know
                                                    till I get there! We shall see...


                                                    Keep up the great work!

                                                    Phil J.









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