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Re: [CMMi Process Improvement] ISO first, CMMI later?

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  • Patrick OToole
    Gerold, The mapping point is a good one, and one that s often overlooked. How many organizations have you heard say they are implementing CMMI (or ISO) ? The
    Message 1 of 5 , Mar 31, 2006
       
      Gerold,
       
      The mapping point is a good one, and one that's often overlooked.  How many organizations have you heard say they are "implementing CMMI (or ISO)"? 
       
      The same sentiment you heard expressed in the training is documented in the Addison Wesley "CMMI" book in the beginning of Chapter 6:
       
      "As you begin using a CMMI model for improving processes, you should map your processes to CMMI process areas.  This mapping enables you to track your organization's level of conformance to the CMMI model you are using and to easily identify opportunities for improvement."
       
      Although I'm not a fan of saying "conformance to the CMMI model," the mapping of existing good practices to whatever model you decide to use is a terrific first step - and one that makes the adoption of other good practices much more palatable.
       
      Regards,
       
      Pat
       
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 6:54 AM
      Subject: Re: [CMMi Process Improvement] ISO first, CMMI later?

      slowly, but steadily the wisdom that a quality management
      system should be standard-independent spreads.
       
      the most important sentence i heard at a recent training
      by markus mueller is "create a mapping of your processes
      to the standard [you are targetting}".
       
      what is nice with ISO 9001 is that it provides a rather comprehensive
      nucleus of a quality system. in other words an architecture
      that can be evolved as needed (by CMMI, ISO 15504 etc.).
      this approach should keep you away from having to do
      rework.
       
      so unless you have specific reason to reach CMMI comliance
      early, start with ISO.
      a parallel implementation is likely to lead to confusion and
      frustration.
       
      best regards,
       
      gerold
      -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
      Von: cmmi_process_improvement@yahoogroups.com [mailto:cmmi_process_improvement@yahoogroups.com]Im Auftrag von Suzanne Zampella
      Gesendet: Donnerstag, 30. März 2006 16:10
      An: cmmi_process_improvement@yahoogroups.com
      Betreff: Re: [CMMi Process Improvement] ISO first, CMMI later?

      If you want to do both, I suggest you do them together.  Keeps you from writing processes for ISO that have to be redone for CMMI.  They do work very well together.
    • Patrick OToole
      The thought of doing both in parallel (or at least in support of one another) also has some intuitive appeal. For example, the approach suggested by Thomas
      Message 2 of 5 , Apr 4, 2006
        The thought of doing both in parallel (or at least in support of one
        another) also has some intuitive appeal. For example, the approach
        suggested by Thomas (below) would be assisted by focusing on:

        1. Planning - PP and OPF
        2. Definition - OPD
        3. Training - OT
        4. Implementation - PMC, PPQA, and OPF

        The CMMI's continuous representation would be ideal for this kind of
        "CMMI-in-support-of-ISO" implementation.

        The danger with trying to do both at once is the "confusion factor." But if
        the quality group is facilitating the change process, the rest of the
        organization need not even know that you're dipping into the CMMI model to
        assist with the ISO implementation.

        Even if you don't use the CMMI explicitly to assist with your ISO-first
        implementation, you will still be performing some of the CMMI-suggested
        practices in the process areas above. If nothing else, the ISO-first
        approach would give you some experience and benefit when you look to
        supplement your existing good ISO-based practices with those suggested by
        the CMMI. (Note, too, that the same is true in reverse if you were to do a
        CMMI-first implementation).

        The best advice is probably, "plan your strategy and get on with it!"

        Regards,

        Pat




        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "thomas_1812" <tsujom@...>
        To: <cmmi_process_improvement@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 12:53 AM
        Subject: Re: [CMMi Process Improvement] ISO first, CMMI later?


        Dear Minh,

        The main reason for going in for an ISO cerification first would be ,
        It will help u develop your processes and the most important part of
        an ISO is the Quality Manual, where you have all the clauses covered.
        Its very easy to go in for an ISO certifivation. At the end of my
        mail I have listed down the steps required to go in for an ISO
        Certification .

        Once u cover up these processes then ucan proceed for CMMI , the
        reason being by each process areas , the specific goals and practices
        it would be easier for you toc ome up with the documentation for each
        of your processes in your organisation.

        The 4 stages before your ceritification may be,
        A. Planning
        1. Identify a task team for implementation
        2. Define responsibilities
        3. Define milestones
        4. Identify certificaiton agency
        5. Arrive at the tentative date of certification

        B. Definition
        1. Review the current documentation and see how far matching to the
        current practices in your bank
        2. Revise/Creat document
        3. Review documents
        4. Release the initial version of QMS after approval
        5. Suggest to avoid paperwork by hosting the QMS in intranet site
        6. Send the QMS for adequacy review by certificaiton agency.

        C. Training
        1. Conduct general quality, ISO awareness programs covering all the
        employees
        2. Identify internal auditors, train and certify
        3. Train the concerned team on the respective processes

        D. Implementation
        1. Motivate indivduals to follow the defined process
        2. Hand hold the individuals as they need help
        3. Perform periodic functional level review to see how far the
        compliance is
        4. Perform internal audits once have suffucuent data
        5. Conduct Management review
        5. If required, ask for a pre-assessment visit by the certification
        agency
        6. Go for certificaiton

        Depending on the size of your organisation and the committment of the
        management, it may take 6 months to 1 year for you to get certified.
        Suggest to have 2 internal audits and 2 management review meetings
        prior to certification. During certificaiton audit, auditors need to
        have sufficient data resulted by your process to perform a meaningful
        audit.

        Note: All the above 4 stages need not be sequential, certain
        activities need to happen in parallel in order to be effective and to
        meet your dead-lines. It all depends on how closely you plan and
        monitor the activities.


        Thanx and Regards ,

        Thomas Mathew


        --- In cmmi_process_improvement@yahoogroups.com, "irfanali_noor"
        <irfanali_noor@...> wrote:
        >
        > Dear Minh
        > i very much agreed with Farah malik to start ISO and then move
        forward
        > to CMM. Since my organization is also doing the same. And we find
        this
        > Strategy very useful. i can give u reference of technical report of
        > Software Engneering Institute which discuss CMM and ISO
        >
        > REF:
        > Technical Report - CMU/SEI-94-TR-12, July 1994
        > Title: Comparsion of ISO 9001 and the CMM for Software
        >
        > With Regards
        > Irfan Ali Noor
        >
        >
        > --- In cmmi_process_improvement@yahoogroups.com, Farah Malik
        > <farah_malik_2000@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Dear Minh,
        > >
        > > ISO is an easier standard to adapt to for organizations that do
        > not have a quality infrastructure in place. Introduction and
        > implementation of ISO only paves the road for getting accustomed to
        a
        > process culture within the organization, which can later be aligned
        to
        > other process improvement initiatives. Integration of ISO and CMMI
        is
        > possible when you are familiar with both. As a first step it would
        be
        > wise to start with ISO and then move forward to other
        standards/models.
        > >
        > > Regards,
        > > Farah Malik.
        > >
        > > Duong Thi Minh <duong_thi_minh@> wrote:
        > > Hi,
        > > Someone tells me that we should adopt ISO first, CMMI later,
        because
        > ISO is easier to understand and implement. It can quickly help set
        > basic for our process improvement, especially some organizational
        and
        > operational processes also included.
        > > I currently know nothing about ISO. Does anyone have any idea
        about
        > this?
        > >
        > > Thanks for your help
        > > Minh
        > >
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        > > Visit your group "cmmi_process_improvement" on the web.
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        >










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      • Baburaj
        Hi, According to my experience, I have found ISO as a good stepping stone, for the further CMMI journey. We never re-wrote anything for the purpose of CMMI,
        Message 3 of 5 , Apr 6, 2006
          Hi,
           
          According to my experience, I have found ISO as a good stepping stone, for the further CMMI journey.
           
          We never re-wrote anything for the purpose of CMMI, but have elaborated (or filled gaps) on areas such as RSKM, DAR, PPQA.
           
          - Thanks, Baburaj
           

          From:cmmi_process_improvement@yahoogroups.com [mailto: cmmi_process_improvement@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Viet Tran Bang
          Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 9:47 PM
          To: cmmi_process_improvement@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [CMMi Process Improvement] ISO first, CMMI later?

           

          Hi Minh,

           

          I back to this topic because I would like share with you my real experience. For me, the decision of ISO first or CMMI first is not only the technical question but also the strategy question.

           

          • If you do the ISO first:
            • (Pro) Easier for QMS/SEPG since it should be 99% of successful: safer
            • (Pro) Great change to learn how to define a QMS and roll it out effectively
            • (Pro) Great change to improve employee process/quality awareness before the real-campaign: CMMI
            • (Pro) Great opportunity to let your company do the exercise of  being assessing, being auditing and interviewing
            • (Cons) Your process must be totally rewrite when you do the CMMI
            • (Cons) The real gained benefit is not much
          • If you do both at the same time:
            • (Pro) You just need to write the process one time
            • (Pro) Great effort and cost saving for roll out the QMS, especially if your company are big
            • (Cons) Higher complicated if you are new in leading a quality program
            • (Cons) Longer time for achieving the first standard
          • If you do the CMMI first:
            • (Pro) Almost no need to rewrite the process
            • (Pro) Better effort and cost saving for roll out the QMS, especially if your company are big
            • (Pro) Great quality awareness for your company if successful since they can see the significant benefit from processes
            • (Cons) It’s harder and the risk is higher.

           

          In my opinion, if you are new in quality or running a great program, or the business asks to have a certificate as a ‘ticket” to win a contract or join a market, let go with the ISO first. Otherwise, you should go with the CMMI first.

           

          Should never go with both of them at the same time, except when you are very special…. My company, even have go with ISO first (then achieve it) and have experience on that but still have problem when try to mix the TL9000 and the CMMI at the sametime…

           

          Regards,

          Viet

           


          From:cmmi_process_improvement@yahoogroups.com [mailto: cmmi_process_improvement@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Duong Thi Minh
          Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2006 4:05 PM
          To: CMMI
          Subject: [CMMi Process Improvement] ISO first, CMMI later?

           

          Hi,
          Someone tells me that we should adopt ISO first, CMMI later, because ISO is easier to understand and implement. It can quickly help set basic for our process improvement, especially some organizational and operational processes also included.
          I currently know nothing about ISO. Does anyone have any idea about this?

          Thanks for your help
          Minh


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