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RE: [CMMi Process Improvement] Sincerity in process improvement?

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  • R C Goyal SPIN Core Team CSI Mumbai
    Friends I know at least one organized in Mumbai, India who are successfully assessed both for CMMI & PCMM Thanks & Regards R C Goyal, Member IEEE Bombay SPIN
    Message 1 of 22 , Oct 1, 2009
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      Friends
       
      I know at least one organized in Mumbai, India who are successfully assessed both for CMMI & PCMM
       

      Thanks & Regards R C Goyal, Member IEEE Bombay 

      SPIN Coreteam Member CSI Mumbai Chapter

      spin@..., goyalrak@... Cell: +919869463964, +919820068417

       

       


      From: cmmi_process_improvement@yahoogroups.com [mailto:cmmi_process_improvement@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of EDWARD F WELLER III
      Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 8:23 PM
      To: cmmi_process_improvement@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [CMMi Process Improvement] Sincerity in process improvement?

       

      

      Orhan
       
      THere are no CMMI certified organizations.
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 7:27 PM
      Subject: [CMMi Process Improvement] Sincerity in process improvement?

       

      Hi there,


      Does anybody have a figure for what percentage of CMMI certified organizations have also certified in People-CMM and/or using PSP, TSP?  By this percentage I assume to have an idea of sincere interest in process improvement, not in certification only.  

      Thanks very much,
      Orhan
      Toronto

    • Orhan Kalayci
      Ed, I don t think you got my point. Actually, you can t because I didn t make it clear yet. Did you see how I helped Jerry to make his point clear? I kept
      Message 2 of 22 , Oct 1, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        Ed,

        I don't think you got my point. Actually, you can't because I didn't make it clear yet.

        Did you see how I helped Jerry to make his point clear? I kept asking "what is your point?" and "so what?" at the end we've reached a win win situation where he made his point and we understand it.

        If you really want to help me, you may do it by askings questions like: "Orhan, what is your point? Suppose we have found 77.39% organizations are using CMMI but not People CMM or TSP nor PSP. Will you think these organizations aren't sincere in process improvement and even if so, so what? What is your point?"

        I think that would be a more helpful and constructive approach.

        Thanks,
        Orhan
        Toronto


        Sent from my iPhone

        On 2009-09-30, at 13:28, "EDWARD F WELLER III" <edwardfwelleriii@...> wrote:

         

        

        Orhan
         
        I got your point, but one of the problems with many organizations is that they view the appraisal process as a certification and fall into the trap of 1) preparing for a certification type situation, 2) fail to understand what CMMI based improvement is about, 3) start looking at every subpractice and work product as a requirement, and I could go in
         
        I feel it is the duty of those of us that understand the model to speak/write as correctly as possible and not lead the people new to the CMMI into misunderstandings.
         
        As for People CMMI it does not appear these results are published by the SEI. While use of the People CMMI for other than name brand recognition, and TSP/PSP may be useful to  improved performance, it would not be a pre-requisite for sincere interest.
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 8:54 AM
        Subject: Re: [CMMi Process Improvement] Sincerity in process improvement?

         

        Ed,

        Do you think you got my point? :))

        Peace,
        Orhan
        Toronto


        Sent from my iPhone

        On 2009-09-30, at 10:53, "EDWARD F WELLER III" <edwardfwelleriii@msn.com> wrote:

         

        

        Orhan
         
        THere are no CMMI certified organizations.
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 7:27 PM
        Subject: [CMMi Process Improvement] Sincerity in process improvement?

         

        Hi there,


        Does anybody have a figure for what percentage of CMMI certified organizations have also certified in People-CMM and/or using PSP, TSP?  By this percentage I assume to have an idea of sincere interest in process improvement, not in certification only.  

        Thanks very much,
        Orhan
        Toronto



        Sent from my iPhone



        Sent from my iPhone
      • Peter
        Even if they take on several models, it does no show sincerity. In fact, I think it may show they are more interested in models that in real quality in
        Message 3 of 22 , Oct 1, 2009
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          Even if they take on several models, it does no show sincerity. In fact, I think it may show they are more interested in models that in real quality in business terms. A few years ago, I was requested to perform three appraisals in one year in the same company: CMM L2, CMM L3 and CMMI ML3 - the reason was the financial gratification given by the Chinese government to companies who pass a maturity level, nothing to do with sincerity, just collecting models.

          Peter
          www.cmmi.info


          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: Orhan KALAYCI<mailto:orhan.kalayci@...>
          > To: cmmi_process_improvement@yahoogroups.com<mailto:cmmi_process_improvement@yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 7:27 PM
          > Subject: [CMMi Process Improvement] Sincerity in process improvement?
          >
          >
          > Hi there,
          >
          >
          >
          > Does anybody have a figure for what percentage of CMMI certified organizations have also certified in People-CMM and/or using PSP, TSP? By this percentage I assume to have an idea of sincere interest in process improvement, not in certification only.
          >
          >
          > Thanks very much,
          > Orhan
          > Toronto
          >
        • EDWARD F WELLER III
          my point is that model usage is one thing, but assessment or appraisal results or model usage are not correlated to sincerity 2nd point is that since the
          Message 4 of 22 , Oct 1, 2009
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            my point is that model usage is one thing, but assessment or appraisal results or model usage are not correlated to sincerity
             
            2nd point is that since the number of People CMMand PSP/TSP users is not counted or regulated by any independent organization, we cannot even arrive at a percentage of users of one or mre of these models/methods
             
            so there is no further value to attempting to quantitatively discuss this (I.e., 77.39%). I suppose form a theoretical basis we could spin forever, but we'd be arguing or discussing from assertions rather than from evidence
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 2:05 AM
            Subject: Re: [CMMi Process Improvement] Sincerity in process improvement?

             

            Ed,

            I don't think you got my point. Actually, you can't because I didn't make it clear yet.

            Did you see how I helped Jerry to make his point clear? I kept asking "what is your point?" and "so what?" at the end we've reached a win win situation where he made his point and we understand it.

            If you really want to help me, you may do it by askings questions like: "Orhan, what is your point? Suppose we have found 77.39% organizations are using CMMI but not People CMM or TSP nor PSP. Will you think these organizations aren't sincere in process improvement and even if so, so what? What is your point?"

            I think that would be a more helpful and constructive approach.

            Thanks,
            Orhan
            Toronto


            Sent from my iPhone

            On 2009-09-30, at 13:28, "EDWARD F WELLER III" <edwardfwelleriii@ msn.com> wrote:

             

            

            Orhan
             
            I got your point, but one of the problems with many organizations is that they view the appraisal process as a certification and fall into the trap of 1) preparing for a certification type situation, 2) fail to understand what CMMI based improvement is about, 3) start looking at every subpractice and work product as a requirement, and I could go in
             
            I feel it is the duty of those of us that understand the model to speak/write as correctly as possible and not lead the people new to the CMMI into misunderstandings.
             
            As for People CMMI it does not appear these results are published by the SEI. While use of the People CMMI for other than name brand recognition, and TSP/PSP may be useful to  improved performance, it would not be a pre-requisite for sincere interest.
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 8:54 AM
            Subject: Re: [CMMi Process Improvement] Sincerity in process improvement?

             

            Ed,

            Do you think you got my point? :))

            Peace,
            Orhan
            Toronto


            Sent from my iPhone

            On 2009-09-30, at 10:53, "EDWARD F WELLER III" <edwardfwelleriii@msn.com> wrote:

             

            

            Orhan
             
            THere are no CMMI certified organizations.
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 7:27 PM
            Subject: [CMMi Process Improvement] Sincerity in process improvement?

             

            Hi there,


            Does anybody have a figure for what percentage of CMMI certified organizations have also certified in People-CMM and/or using PSP, TSP?  By this percentage I assume to have an idea of sincere interest in process improvement, not in certification only.  

            Thanks very much,
            Orhan
            Toronto



            Sent from my iPhone



            Sent from my iPhone

          • Rebecca Coplon
            Orhan, are you theorizing that there s a necessary correlation between number of credentials (CMMI, People CMM, PSP, etc.) and a subjective perception of
            Message 5 of 22 , Oct 1, 2009
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              Orhan, are you theorizing that there's a necessary correlation between number of credentials (CMMI, People CMM, PSP, etc.) and a subjective perception of "sincerity in process improvement"? 
               
              In this case, how would you define "sincerity in process improvement"?  I think that will help us to be able to see if multiple credentials is an effective measure.  At the moment, the concept of sincerity is too abstract to be able to tell.
               
              Orhan, you also tend to lead us down a trail over multiple messages.  I wonder if you could pull your thoughts together and send as close to a single email (with followup for clarifications) to share your thought, instead of sending it over time in bite-sized pieces.  I think that would make it easier on the rest of us to understand your points and respond usefully.
               
              -Rebecca
               

              To: cmmi_process_improvement@yahoogroups.com
              From: orhan.kalayci@...
              Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 05:05:32 -0400
              Subject: Re: [CMMi Process Improvement] Sincerity in process improvement?

               
              Ed,

              I don't think you got my point. Actually, you can't because I didn't make it clear yet.

              Did you see how I helped Jerry to make his point clear? I kept asking "what is your point?" and "so what?" at the end we've reached a win win situation where he made his point and we understand it.

              If you really want to help me, you may do it by askings questions like: "Orhan, what is your point? Suppose we have found 77.39% organizations are using CMMI but not People CMM or TSP nor PSP. Will you think these organizations aren't sincere in process improvement and even if so, so what? What is your point?"

              I think that would be a more helpful and constructive approach.

              Thanks,
              Orhan
              Toronto


              Sent from my iPhone

              On 2009-09-30, at 13:28, "EDWARD F WELLER III" <edwardfwelleriii@ msn.com> wrote:

               

              

              Orhan
               
              I got your point, but one of the problems with many organizations is that they view the appraisal process as a certification and fall into the trap of 1) preparing for a certification type situation, 2) fail to understand what CMMI based improvement is about, 3) start looking at every subpractice and work product as a requirement, and I could go in
               
              I feel it is the duty of those of us that understand the model to speak/write as correctly as possible and not lead the people new to the CMMI into misunderstandings.
               
              As for People CMMI it does not appear these results are published by the SEI. While use of the People CMMI for other than name brand recognition, and TSP/PSP may be useful to  improved performance, it would not be a pre-requisite for sincere interest.
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 8:54 AM
              Subject: Re: [CMMi Process Improvement] Sincerity in process improvement?

               

              Ed,

              Do you think you got my point? :))

              Peace,
              Orhan
              Toronto


              Sent from my iPhone

              On 2009-09-30, at 10:53, "EDWARD F WELLER III" <edwardfwelleriii@msn.com> wrote:

               
              
              Orhan
               
              THere are no CMMI certified organizations.
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 7:27 PM
              Subject: [CMMi Process Improvement] Sincerity in process improvement?

               
              Hi there,

              Does anybody have a figure for what percentage of CMMI certified organizations have also certified in People-CMM and/or using PSP, TSP?  By this percentage I assume to have an idea of sincere interest in process improvement, not in certification only.  

              Thanks very much,
              Orhan
              Toronto




              Sent from my iPhone




              Sent from my iPhone



              Microsoft brings you a new way to search the web. Try Bing™ now
            • Orhan Kalayci
              BTW, Sorry that I should have made it clear that I agree with Ed on my incorrect usage of the term certification. When an organization reached a maturity
              Message 6 of 22 , Oct 1, 2009
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                BTW, 

                Sorry that I should have made it clear that I agree with Ed on my incorrect usage of the term certification.  When an organization reached a maturity level officially it does not mean it is now a CMMI certified organization. It means that it had succesfully provided enough evidance that at the time of appraisal it was operating at a specific maturity level. And it is supposed to be wise to assume that it will continue to operate at that maturity level for at least three more years.      

                Kudos to Ed and Jeff that they made the correction, but my point is totally diffirent, and what is more, I didn't make it yet :) 

                Sent from my iPhone

                On 2009-10-01, at 4:23, "R C Goyal SPIN Core Team CSI Mumbai" <goyalrak@...> wrote:

                 

                Friends
                 
                I know at least one organized in Mumbai, India who are successfully assessed both for CMMI & PCMM
                 

                Thanks & Regards R C Goyal, Member IEEE Bombay 

                SPIN Coreteam Member CSI Mumbai Chapter

                spin@csimumbai. org, goyalrak@aol. com Cell: +919869463964, +919820068417

                 

                 


                From: cmmi_process_ improvement@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:cmmi_ process_improvem ent@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of EDWARD F WELLER III
                Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 8:23 PM
                To: cmmi_process_ improvement@ yahoogroups. com
                Subject: Re: [CMMi Process Improvement] Sincerity in process improvement?

                 

                

                Orhan
                 
                THere are no CMMI certified organizations.
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 7:27 PM
                Subject: [CMMi Process Improvement] Sincerity in process improvement?

                 

                Hi there,


                Does anybody have a figure for what percentage of CMMI certified organizations have also certified in People-CMM and/or using PSP, TSP?  By this percentage I assume to have an idea of sincere interest in process improvement, not in certification only.  

                Thanks very much,
                Orhan
                Toronto

              • Jeffrey Dalton
                Orhan,   How could your point be totally different when you claim to have not made it?   I suspect lesson is on it s way.  I must be either
                Message 7 of 22 , Oct 1, 2009
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                  Orhan,
                   
                  How could your point be "totally different" when you claim to have not made it?
                   
                  I suspect lesson is on it's way.  I must be either misuderstanding or refusing to understand your point.  Thank you for pointing it out (when you get around to making your point that is).
                   
                  Jeff

                  --- On Thu, 10/1/09, Orhan Kalayci <orhan.kalayci@...> wrote:

                  From: Orhan Kalayci <orhan.kalayci@...>
                  Subject: Re: [CMMi Process Improvement] Sincerity in process improvement?
                  To: "cmmi_process_improvement@yahoogroups.com" <cmmi_process_improvement@yahoogroups.com>
                  Date: Thursday, October 1, 2009, 3:35 PM

                   
                  BTW, 

                  Sorry that I should have made it clear that I agree with Ed on my incorrect usage of the term certification.  When an organization reached a maturity level officially it does not mean it is now a CMMI certified organization. It means that it had succesfully provided enough evidance that at the time of appraisal it was operating at a specific maturity level. And it is supposed to be wise to assume that it will continue to operate at that maturity level for at least three more years.      

                  Kudos to Ed and Jeff that they made the correction, but my point is totally diffirent, and what is more, I didn't make it yet :) 

                  Sent from my iPhone

                  On 2009-10-01, at 4:23, "R C Goyal SPIN Core Team CSI Mumbai" <goyalrak@aol. com> wrote:

                   
                  Friends
                   
                  I know at least one organized in Mumbai, India who are successfully assessed both for CMMI & PCMM
                   

                  Thanks & Regards R C Goyal, Member IEEE Bombay 

                  SPIN Coreteam Member CSI Mumbai Chapter

                  spin@csimumbai. org, goyalrak@aol. com Cell: +919869463964, +919820068417

                   

                   


                  From: cmmi_process_ improvement@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:cmmi_ process_improvem ent@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of EDWARD F WELLER III
                  Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 8:23 PM
                  To: cmmi_process_ improvement@ yahoogroups. com
                  Subject: Re: [CMMi Process Improvement] Sincerity in process improvement?

                   
                  
                  Orhan
                   
                  THere are no CMMI certified organizations.
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 7:27 PM
                  Subject: [CMMi Process Improvement] Sincerity in process improvement?

                   
                  Hi there,

                  Does anybody have a figure for what percentage of CMMI certified organizations have also certified in People-CMM and/or using PSP, TSP?  By this percentage I assume to have an idea of sincere interest in process improvement, not in certification only.  

                  Thanks very much,
                  Orhan
                  Toronto
                • Orhan KALAYCI
                  To understand why I listed these models, let us, look at the question:Which one of the following models is totally different from others from the eye of a
                  Message 8 of 22 , Oct 8, 2009
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                    To understand why I listed these models, let us, look at the question:
                    Which one of the following models is totally different from others from the eye of a senior manager:
                    1.  CMMI-Dev
                    2.  People-CMM
                    3.  TSP
                    4.  PSP
                    5.  No difference, they are all the same, from point of view of a senior manager.

                    Answer:  CMMI-Dev is totally different from others because it will generate an immediate positive cash flow (or immediate promotion or demotion) whereas others promise a long term ROI if they really are successfully implemented which is an extremely risky endeavor as it requires a cultural change that the failure ratio of such initiatives (process improvement or cultural change) is more than 75% according to some Gartner reports  - So I believe most of the companies invest in CMMI not because they really believe in process improvement but because their clients or higher management (some audit reports) push for it.  

                    Next question is "so what?" - "why is it (sincerity in process improvement is) important?"

                    Peace,
                    Orhan
                    Toronto

                    2009/10/1 Rebecca Coplon <rmcoplon@...>
                     

                    Orhan, are you theorizing that there's a necessary correlation between number of credentials (CMMI, People CMM, PSP, etc.) and a subjective perception of "sincerity in process improvement"? 
                     
                    In this case, how would you define "sincerity in process improvement"?  I think that will help us to be able to see if multiple credentials is an effective measure.  At the moment, the concept of sincerity is too abstract to be able to tell.
                     
                    Orhan, you also tend to lead us down a trail over multiple messages.  I wonder if you could pull your thoughts together and send as close to a single email (with followup for clarifications) to share your thought, instead of sending it over time in bite-sized pieces.  I think that would make it easier on the rest of us to understand your points and respond usefully.
                     
                    -Rebecca
                     


                    From: orhan.kalayci@...
                    Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 05:05:32 -0400

                    Subject: Re: [CMMi Process Improvement] Sincerity in process improvement?

                     
                    Ed,

                    I don't think you got my point. Actually, you can't because I didn't make it clear yet.

                    Did you see how I helped Jerry to make his point clear? I kept asking "what is your point?" and "so what?" at the end we've reached a win win situation where he made his point and we understand it.

                    If you really want to help me, you may do it by askings questions like: "Orhan, what is your point? Suppose we have found 77.39% organizations are using CMMI but not People CMM or TSP nor PSP. Will you think these organizations aren't sincere in process improvement and even if so, so what? What is your point?"

                    I think that would be a more helpful and constructive approach.

                    Thanks,
                    Orhan
                    Toronto


                    Sent from my iPhone

                    On 2009-09-30, at 13:28, "EDWARD F WELLER III" <edwardfwelleriii@...> wrote:

                     

                    

                    Orhan
                     
                    I got your point, but one of the problems with many organizations is that they view the appraisal process as a certification and fall into the trap of 1) preparing for a certification type situation, 2) fail to understand what CMMI based improvement is about, 3) start looking at every subpractice and work product as a requirement, and I could go in
                     
                    I feel it is the duty of those of us that understand the model to speak/write as correctly as possible and not lead the people new to the CMMI into misunderstandings.
                     
                    As for People CMMI it does not appear these results are published by the SEI. While use of the People CMMI for other than name brand recognition, and TSP/PSP may be useful to  improved performance, it would not be a pre-requisite for sincere interest.
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 8:54 AM
                    Subject: Re: [CMMi Process Improvement] Sincerity in process improvement?

                     

                    Ed,

                    Do you think you got my point? :))

                    Peace,
                    Orhan
                    Toronto


                    Sent from my iPhone

                    On 2009-09-30, at 10:53, "EDWARD F WELLER III" <edwardfwelleriii@msn.com> wrote:

                     
                    
                    Orhan
                     
                    THere are no CMMI certified organizations.
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 7:27 PM
                    Subject: [CMMi Process Improvement] Sincerity in process improvement?

                     
                    Hi there,

                    Does anybody have a figure for what percentage of CMMI certified organizations have also certified in People-CMM and/or using PSP, TSP?  By this percentage I assume to have an idea of sincere interest in process improvement, not in certification only.  

                    Thanks very much,
                    Orhan
                    Toronto




                    Sent from my iPhone




                    Sent from my iPhone



                    Microsoft brings you a new way to search the web. Try Bing™ now


                  • harvey.stromberg@comcast.net
                    I ve told myself that I shouldn t be an enabler or encourage further postings, but I can t help but make some observations: 1. You still haven t defined
                    Message 9 of 22 , Oct 9, 2009
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                      I've told myself that I shouldn't be an enabler or encourage further postings, but I can't help but make some observations:

                       

                      1. You still haven't defined 'sincerity in process improvement'.

                      2. Your assertion about cash flow is unsupported by data.

                      3. You imply that unlike the other frameworks, CMMI-based process improvement doesn't require culture change.

                      4. Your conclusion about the motivation for CMMI investment is unrelated to the preceding assertions.


                      ____________________________
                      Harvey Stromberg

                       



                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Orhan KALAYCI" <orhan.kalayci@...>
                      To: "cmmi process improvement" <cmmi_process_improvement@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Thursday, October 8, 2009 11:24:57 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
                      Subject: Re: [CMMi Process Improvement] Sincerity in process improvement?

                      To understand why I listed these models, let us, look at the question:Which
                      one of the following models is totally different from others from the eye of
                      a senior manager:
                      1.  CMMI-Dev
                      2.  People-CMM
                      3.  TSP
                      4.  PSP
                      5.  No difference, they are all the same, from point of view of a senior
                      manager.

                      Answer:  CMMI-Dev is totally different from others because it
                      will generate an immediate positive cash flow (or immediate promotion or
                      demotion) whereas others promise a long term ROI if they really are
                      successfully implemented which is an extremely risky endeavor as it requires
                      a cultural change that the failure ratio of such initiatives (process
                      improvement or cultural change) is more than 75% according to some Gartner
                      reports  - So I believe most of the companies invest in CMMI not because
                      they really believe in process improvement but because their clients or
                      higher management (some audit reports) push for it.

                      Next question is "so what?" - "why is it (sincerity in process improvement
                      is) important?"

                      Peace,
                      Orhan
                      Toronto

                      2009/10/1 Rebecca Coplon <rmcoplon@...>

                      >
                      >
                      > Orhan, are you theorizing that there's a necessary correlation between
                      > number of credentials (CMMI, People CMM, PSP, etc.) and a
                      > subjective perception of "sincerity in process improvement"?
                      >
                      > In this case, how would you define "sincerity in process improvement"?  I
                      > think that will help us to be able to see if multiple credentials is an
                      > effective measure.  At the moment, the concept of sincerity is too abstract
                      > to be able to tell.
                      >
                      > Orhan, you also tend to lead us down a trail over multiple messages.  I
                      > wonder if you could pull your thoughts together and send as close to a
                      > single email (with followup for clarifications) to share your thought,
                      > instead of sending it over time in bite-sized pieces.  I think that would
                      > make it easier on the rest of us to understand your points and respond
                      > usefully.
                      >
                      > -Rebecca
                      >
                      > ------------------------------
                      > To: cmmi_process_improvement@yahoogroups.com
                      > From: orhan.kalayci@...
                      > Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 05:05:32 -0400
                      >
                      > Subject: Re: [CMMi Process Improvement] Sincerity in process improvement?
                      >
                      >
                      >  Ed,
                      >
                      > I don't think you got my point. Actually, you can't because I didn't make
                      > it clear yet.
                      >
                      > Did you see how I helped Jerry to make his point clear? I kept asking "what
                      > is your point?" and "so what?" at the end we've reached a win win situation
                      > where he made his point and we understand it.
                      >
                      > If you really want to help me, you may do it by askings questions like:
                      > "Orhan, what is your point? Suppose we have found 77.39% organizations are
                      > using CMMI but not People CMM or TSP nor PSP. Will you think these
                      > organizations aren't sincere in process improvement and even if so, so what?
                      > What is your point?"
                      >
                      > I think that would be a more helpful and constructive approach.
                      >
                      > Thanks,
                      > Orhan
                      > Toronto
                      >
                      >
                      > Sent from my iPhone
                      >
                      > On 2009-09-30, at 13:28, "EDWARD F WELLER III" <edwardfwelleriii@...>
                      > wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > 
                      >  Orhan
                      >
                      > I got your point, but one of the problems with many organizations is that
                      > they view the appraisal process as a certification and fall into the trap of
                      > 1) preparing for a certification type situation, 2) fail to understand what
                      > CMMI based improvement is about, 3) start looking at every subpractice and
                      > work product as a requirement, and I could go in
                      >
                      > I feel it is the duty of those of us that understand the model to
                      > speak/write as correctly as possible and not lead the people new to the CMMI
                      > into misunderstandings.
                      >
                      > As for People CMMI it does not appear these results are published by the
                      > SEI. While use of the People CMMI for other than name brand recognition, and
                      > TSP/PSP may be useful to  improved performance, it would not be a
                      > pre-requisite for sincere interest.
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > *From:* Orhan Kalayci <orhan.kalayci@...>
                      > *To:* cmmi_process_improvement@yahoogroups.com
                      > *Cc:* <cmmi_process_improvement@yahoogroups.com><cmmi_process_improvement@yahoogroups.com%3E>
                      > *Sent:* Wednesday, September 30, 2009 8:54 AM
                      > *Subject:* Re: [CMMi Process Improvement] Sincerity in process
                      > improvement?
                      >
                      >
                      > Ed,
                      >
                      > Do you think you got my point? :))
                      >
                      > Peace,
                      > Orhan
                      > Toronto
                      >
                      >
                      > Sent from my iPhone
                      >
                      > On 2009-09-30, at 10:53, "EDWARD F WELLER III" <edwardfwelleriii@<edwardfwelleriii@...>
                      > msn.com> wrote:
                      >
                      >    
                      >  Orhan
                      >
                      > THere are no CMMI certified organizations.
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > *From:* Orhan KALAYCI <orhan.kalayci@...>
                      > *To:* cmmi_process_improvement@yahoogroups.com
                      > *Sent:* Tuesday, September 29, 2009 7:27 PM
                      > *Subject:* [CMMi Process Improvement] Sincerity in process improvement?
                      >
                      >   Hi there,
                      >
                      > Does anybody have a figure for what percentage of CMMI certified
                      > organizations have also certified in People-CMM and/or using PSP, TSP?  By
                      > this percentage I assume to have an idea of sincere interest in process
                      > improvement, not in certification only.
                      >
                      > Thanks very much,
                      > Orhan
                      > Toronto
                      >
                    • Orhan KALAYCI
                      Oh my god, you are right CMMI-based process improvements too require culture change then I should be mistaken in saying that CMMI-Dev is different from
                      Message 10 of 22 , Oct 9, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Oh my god, you are right CMMI-based process improvements too require culture change then I should be mistaken in saying that CMMI-Dev is different from People-CMM, TSP, PSP however the truth is they all require cultural change.  Furthermore, according to some Gartner reports (as said in my original message), It also necessary follows that CMMI-based process improvements should also fail by a rate of 75% as well.  It is certainly a false statement.  What a shame, I need to stop posting immediately. It is not fair to let me mislead people any more :)

                        Wait a minute, may be I am not too mistaken: Having an official CMMI maturity level may not mean success in process improvement.  Then if it is true, although most of the organizations fail in CMMI-based improvement they somehow manage to get official maturity levels :)) Oh yes, most certainly, that must be the explanation. An official CMMI maturity level may not necessarily mean a success in process improvement, oh good god, it is a real relief. :))))  

                        But you are right in the sense that my statement, to be correct, it should look like this:  CMMI-Dev is different from the other models (unlike TSP, PSP) because it provides organizations with tools that help them to be seem as if they are successful in process improvement.  Although People-CMM does provide similar tools, having a maturity level in People-CMM is right now not very much appreciated by prospective clients and does not help an IT Dept in passing internal audits such as cobit, etc.  And it certainly does not help IT managers who managed to achieve a maturity level in people-cmm to get promoted.  

                        You are also so right that I still did not define what I mean by "sincerity in process improvement" Without my definition how I can assume people to understand sincerity means organization (senior management) is interested in real increase in productivity, efficiency and effectiveness not in getting a piece of paper saying that the organization successfully demonstrated enough evidence that it is operating at a certain CMMI maturity level and continue to operate at that level of maturity for three more years.  How fool I am to assume that it is such an obvious thing :)

                        Finally, does an official CMMI maturity level really bring an immediate cash flow into an organization?  Or an immediate sign of success for internal IT departments? Oops, another false assumption of mine, I should immediately stop posting, please do not encourage me any further, I am dangerous :)))))

                        It is good to see the group getting a more fun place every day. :)

                        Peace,
                        Orhan
                        Toronto



                        2009/10/9 <harvey.stromberg@...>
                         

                        I've told myself that I shouldn't be an enabler or encourage further postings, but I can't help but make some observations:

                         

                        1. You still haven't defined 'sincerity in process improvement'.

                        2. Your assertion about cash flow is unsupported by data.

                        3. You imply that unlike the other frameworks, CMMI-based process improvement doesn't require culture change.

                        4. Your conclusion about the motivation for CMMI investment is unrelated to the preceding assertions.


                        ____________________________
                        Harvey Stromberg

                         



                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Orhan KALAYCI" <orhan.kalayci@...>
                        To: "cmmi process improvement" <cmmi_process_improvement@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Thursday, October 8, 2009 11:24:57 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
                        Subject: Re: [CMMi Process Improvement] Sincerity in process improvement?

                        To understand why I listed these models, let us, look at the question:Which
                        one of the following models is totally different from others from the eye of
                        a senior manager:
                        1.  CMMI-Dev
                        2.  People-CMM
                        3.  TSP
                        4.  PSP
                        5.  No difference, they are all the same, from point of view of a senior
                        manager.

                        Answer:  CMMI-Dev is totally different from others because it
                        will generate an immediate positive cash flow (or immediate promotion or
                        demotion) whereas others promise a long term ROI if they really are
                        successfully implemented which is an extremely risky endeavor as it requires
                        a cultural change that the failure ratio of such initiatives (process
                        improvement or cultural change) is more than 75% according to some Gartner
                        reports  - So I believe most of the companies invest in CMMI not because
                        they really believe in process improvement but because their clients or
                        higher management (some audit reports) push for it.

                        Next question is "so what?" - "why is it (sincerity in process improvement
                        is) important?"

                        Peace,
                        Orhan
                        Toronto

                        2009/10/1 Rebecca Coplon <rmcoplon@...>

                        >
                        >
                        > Orhan, are you theorizing that there's a necessary correlation between
                        > number of credentials (CMMI, People CMM, PSP, etc.) and a
                        > subjective perception of "sincerity in process improvement"?
                        >
                        > In this case, how would you define "sincerity in process improvement"?  I
                        > think that will help us to be able to see if multiple credentials is an
                        > effective measure.  At the moment, the concept of sincerity is too abstract
                        > to be able to tell.
                        >
                        > Orhan, you also tend to lead us down a trail over multiple messages.  I
                        > wonder if you could pull your thoughts together and send as close to a
                        > single email (with followup for clarifications) to share your thought,
                        > instead of sending it over time in bite-sized pieces.  I think that would
                        > make it easier on the rest of us to understand your points and respond
                        > usefully.
                        >
                        > -Rebecca
                        >
                        > ------------------------------
                        > To: cmmi_process_improvement@yahoogroups.com
                        > From: orhan.kalayci@...
                        > Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 05:05:32 -0400
                        >
                        > Subject: Re: [CMMi Process Improvement] Sincerity in process improvement?
                        >
                        >
                        >  Ed,
                        >
                        > I don't think you got my point. Actually, you can't because I didn't make
                        > it clear yet.
                        >
                        > Did you see how I helped Jerry to make his point clear? I kept asking "what
                        > is your point?" and "so what?" at the end we've reached a win win situation
                        > where he made his point and we understand it.
                        >
                        > If you really want to help me, you may do it by askings questions like:
                        > "Orhan, what is your point? Suppose we have found 77.39% organizations are
                        > using CMMI but not People CMM or TSP nor PSP. Will you think these
                        > organizations aren't sincere in process improvement and even if so, so what?
                        > What is your point?"
                        >
                        > I think that would be a more helpful and constructive approach.
                        >
                        > Thanks,
                        > Orhan
                        > Toronto
                        >
                        >
                        > Sent from my iPhone
                        >
                        > On 2009-09-30, at 13:28, "EDWARD F WELLER III" <edwardfwelleriii@...>
                        > wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > 
                        >  Orhan
                        >
                        > I got your point, but one of the problems with many organizations is that
                        > they view the appraisal process as a certification and fall into the trap of
                        > 1) preparing for a certification type situation, 2) fail to understand what
                        > CMMI based improvement is about, 3) start looking at every subpractice and
                        > work product as a requirement, and I could go in
                        >
                        > I feel it is the duty of those of us that understand the model to
                        > speak/write as correctly as possible and not lead the people new to the CMMI
                        > into misunderstandings.
                        >
                        > As for People CMMI it does not appear these results are published by the
                        > SEI. While use of the People CMMI for other than name brand recognition, and
                        > TSP/PSP may be useful to  improved performance, it would not be a
                        > pre-requisite for sincere interest.
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > *From:* Orhan Kalayci <orhan.kalayci@...>
                        > *To:* cmmi_process_improvement@yahoogroups.com
                        > *Cc:* <cmmi_process_improvement@yahoogroups.com><cmmi_process_improvement@yahoogroups.com%3E>
                        > *Sent:* Wednesday, September 30, 2009 8:54 AM
                        > *Subject:* Re: [CMMi Process Improvement] Sincerity in process
                        > improvement?
                        >
                        >
                        > Ed,
                        >
                        > Do you think you got my point? :))
                        >
                        > Peace,
                        > Orhan
                        > Toronto
                        >
                        >
                        > Sent from my iPhone
                        >
                        > On 2009-09-30, at 10:53, "EDWARD F WELLER III" <edwardfwelleriii@<edwardfwelleriii@...>

                        > msn.com> wrote:
                        >
                        >    
                        >  Orhan
                        >
                        > THere are no CMMI certified organizations.
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > *From:* Orhan KALAYCI <orhan.kalayci@...>
                        > *To:* cmmi_process_improvement@yahoogroups.com
                        > *Sent:* Tuesday, September 29, 2009 7:27 PM
                        > *Subject:* [CMMi Process Improvement] Sincerity in process improvement?
                        >
                        >   Hi there,
                        >
                        > Does anybody have a figure for what percentage of CMMI certified
                        > organizations have also certified in People-CMM and/or using PSP, TSP?  By
                        > this percentage I assume to have an idea of sincere interest in process
                        > improvement, not in certification only.
                        >
                        > Thanks very much,
                        > Orhan
                        > Toronto
                        >


                      • Boris Mutafelija
                        Since debate is about CMMI - why not ask ourselves - what about ISO 9001, ISO 20000, ISO 15504, etc. as well as many other audits performed around the world
                        Message 11 of 22 , Oct 9, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Since debate is about CMMI - why not ask ourselves - what about ISO 9001, ISO 20000, ISO 15504, etc. as well as many other audits performed around the world (aerospace, automobile industry, food, pharmaceuticals, etc.) ..
                           
                          Are they all useless? Don't they add value? Are they all based on "insincere" ideas? Is the management throwing money for nothing?
                           
                          Just a bit more "food for thought" ...
                           

                           

                          To: cmmi_process_improvement@yahoogroups.com
                          From: orhan.kalayci@...
                          Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 19:28:51 -0400
                          Subject: Re: [CMMi Process Improvement] Sincerity in process improvement?

                           
                          Oh my god, you are right CMMI-based process improvements too require culture change then I should be mistaken in saying that CMMI-Dev is different from People-CMM, TSP, PSP however the truth is they all require cultural change.  Furthermore,  according to some Gartner reports (as said in my original message), It also necessary follows that CMMI-based process improvements should also fail by a rate of 75% as well.  It is certainly a false statement.  What a shame, I need to stop posting immediately. It is not fair to let me mislead people any more :)

                          Wait a minute, may be I am not too mistaken: Having an official CMMI maturity level may not mean success in process improvement.  Then if it is true, although most of the organizations fail in CMMI-based improvement they somehow manage to get official maturity levels :)) Oh yes, most certainly, that must be the explanation. An official CMMI maturity level may not necessarily  mean a success in process improvement, oh good god, it is a real relief. :))))  

                          But you are right in the sense that my statement, to be correct, it should look like this:  CMMI-Dev is different from the other models (unlike TSP, PSP) because it provides organizations with tools that help them to be seem as if they are successful in process improvemen t.  Although People-CMM does provide similar tools, having a maturity level in People-CMM is right now not very much appreciated by prospective clients and does not help an IT Dept in passing internal audits such as cobit, etc.  And it certainly does not help IT managers who managed to achieve a maturity level in people-cmm to get promoted.  

                          You are also so right that I still did not define what I mean by "sincerity in process improvement" Without my definition how I can assume people to understand sincerity means organization (senior management) is interested in real increase in productivity, efficiency and effectiveness not in getting a piece of paper saying that the organization successfully  demonstrated  enough evidence  that it is operating at a certain CMMI maturity level and continue to operate at that level of maturity for three more years.  How fool I am to assume that it is such an obvious thing :)

                          Finally, does an official CMMI  maturity level really bring an immediate cash flow into an organization?  Or an immediate sign of success for internal IT departments?  Oops, another false assumption of mine, I should immediately stop posting, please do not encourage me any further, I am dangerous :)))))

                          It is good to see the group getting a more fun place every day. :)

                          Peace,
                          Orhan
                          Toronto



                          2009/10/9 <harvey.stromberg@ comcast.net>
                           


                          I've told myself that I shouldn't be an enabler or encourage further postings, but I can't help but make some observations:
                           
                          1. You still haven't defined 'sincerity in process improvement'.
                          2. Your assertion about cash flow is unsupported by data.
                          3. You imply that unlike the other frameworks, CMMI-based process improvement doesn't require culture change.
                          4. Your conclusion about the motivation for CMMI investment is unrelated to the preceding assertions.



                          ____________ _________ _______
                          Harvey Stromberg
                           


                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Orhan KALAYCI" <orhan.kalayci@ gmail.com>
                          To: "cmmi process improvement" <cmmi_process_ improvement@ yahoogroups. com>
                          Sent: Thursday, October 8, 2009 11:24:57 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
                          Subject: Re: [CMMi Process Improvement] Sincerity in process improvement?

                          To understand why I listed these models, let us, look at the question:Which
                          one of the following models is totally different from others from the eye of
                          a senior manager:
                          1.  CMMI-Dev
                          2.  People-CMM
                          3.  TSP
                          4.  PSP
                          5.  No difference, they are all the same, from point of view of a senior
                          manager.

                          Answer:  CMMI-Dev is totally different from others because it
                          will generate an immediate positive cash flow (or immediate promotion or
                          demotion) whereas others promise a long term ROI if they really are
                          successfully implemented which is an extremely risky endeavor as it requires
                          a cultural change that the failure ratio of such initiatives (process
                          improvement or cultural change) is more than 75% according to some Gartner
                          reports  - So I believe most of the companies invest in CMMI not because
                          they really believe in process improvement but because their clients or
                          higher management (some audit reports) push for it.

                          Next question is "so what?" - "why is it (sincerity in process improvement
                          is) important?"

                          Peace,
                          Orhan
                          Toronto

                          2009/10/1 Rebecca Coplon <rmcoplon@hotmail. com>

                          >
                          >
                          > Orhan, are you theorizing that there's a necessary correlation between
                          > number of credentials (CMMI, People CMM, PSP, etc.) and a
                          > subjective perception of "sincerity in process improvement"?
                          >
                          > In this case, how would you define "sincerity in process improvement"?  I
                          > think that will help us to be able to see if multiple credentials is an
                          > effective measure.  At the moment, the concept of sincerity is too abstract
                          > to be able to tell.
                          >
                          > Orhan, you also tend to lead us down a trail over multiple messages.  I
                          > wonder if you could pull your thoughts together and send as close to a
                          > single email (with followup for clarifications) to share your thought,
                          > instead of sending it over time in bite-sized pieces.  I think that would
                          > make it easier on the rest of us to understand your points and respond
                          > usefully.
                          >
                          > -Rebecca
                          >
                          > ------------ --------- ---------
                          > To: cmmi_process_ improvement@ yahoogroups. com
                          > From: orhan.kalayci@ gmail.com
                          > Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 05:05:32 -0400
                          >
                          > Subject: Re: [CMMi Process Improvement] Sincerity in process improvement?
                          >
                          >
                          >  Ed,
                          >
                          > I don't think you got my point. Actually, you can't because I didn't make
                          > it clear yet.
                          >
                          > Did you see how I helped Jerry to make his point clear? I kept asking "what
                          > is your point?" and "so what?" at the end we've reached a win win situation
                          > where he made his point and we understand it.
                          >
                          > If you really want to help me, you may do it by askings questions like:
                          > "Orhan, what is your point? Suppose we have found 77.39% organizations are
                          > using CMMI but not People CMM or TSP nor PSP. Will you think these
                          > organizations aren't sincere in process improvement and even if so, so what?
                          > What is your point?"
                          >
                          > I think that would be a more helpful and constructive approach.
                          >
                          > Thanks,
                          > Orhan
                          > Toronto
                          >
                          >
                          > Sent from my iPhone
                          >
                          > On 2009-09-30, at 13:28, "EDWARD F WELLER III" <edwardfwelleriii@ msn.com>
                          > wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > 
                          >  Orhan
                          >
                          > I got your point, but one of the problems with many organizations is that
                          > they view the appraisal process as a certification and fall into the trap of
                          > 1) preparing for a certification type situation, 2) fail to understand what
                          > CMMI based improvement is about, 3) start looking at every subpractice and
                          > work product as a requirement, and I could go in
                          >
                          > I feel it is the duty of those of us that understand the model to
                          > speak/write as correctly as possible and not lead the people new to the CMMI
                          > into misunderstandings.
                          >
                          > As for People CMMI it does not appear these results are published by the
                          > SEI. While use of the People CMMI for other than name brand recognition, and
                          > TSP/PSP may be useful to  improved performance, it would not be a
                          > pre-requisite for sincere interest.
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > *From:* Orhan Kalayci <orhan.kalayci@ gmail.com>
                          > *To:* cmmi_process_ improvement@ yahoogroups. com
                          > *Cc:* <cmmi_process_ improvement@ yahoogroups. com><cmmi_process_ improvement@ yahoogroups. com%3E>
                          > *Sent:* Wednesday, September 30, 2009 8:54 AM
                          > *Subject:* Re: [CMMi Process Improvement] Sincerity in process
                          > improvement?
                          >
                          >
                          > Ed,
                          >
                          > Do you think you got my point? :))
                          >
                          > Peace,
                          > Orhan
                          > Toronto
                          >
                          >
                          > Sent from my iPhone
                          >
                          > On 2009-09-30, at 10:53, "EDWARD F WELLER III" <edwardfwelleriii@<edwardfwelleriii@ msn.com>

                          > msn.com> wrote:
                          >
                          >    
                          >  Orhan
                          >
                          > THere are no CMMI certified organizations.
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > *From:* Orhan KALAYCI <orhan.kalayci@ gmail.com>
                          > *To:* cmmi_process_ improvement@ yahoogroups. com
                          > *Sent:* Tuesday, September 29, 2009 7:27 PM
                          > *Subject:* [CMMi Process Improvement] Sincerity in process improvement?
                          >
                          >   Hi there,
                          >
                          > Does anybody have a figure for what percentage of CMMI certified
                          > organizations have also certified in People-CMM and/or using PSP, TSP?  By
                          > this percentage I assume to have an idea of sincere interest in process
                          > improvement, not in certification only.
                          >
                          > Thanks very much,
                          > Orhan
                          > Toronto
                          >





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                        • Orhan Kalayci
                          Hi Boris, That s a very good point. One should be extremely naive to assume that management throws out money for nothing. Any experienced, non naive
                          Message 12 of 22 , Oct 9, 2009
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hi Boris,

                            That's a very good point. One should be extremely naive to assume that management throws out money for nothing. Any experienced, non naive professional knows management never put money into something unless they expect more money in return. There even is a term for this - ROI - return of investment.

                            What I am saying is management puts money for these audits because they know they will get more money in return by using them in their marketing efforts to create new clients or more business with existence clients. So they are mostly linked to marketing efforts or in other words increasing market share, mostly not linked to real process improvement.

                            Internal departments have similar but a different story which I may explain only if it really is requested so badly :)))

                            Thanks,
                            Orhan
                            Toronto


                            Sent from my iPhone

                            On 2009-10-09, at 22:14, Boris Mutafelija <boris_mirta@...> wrote:

                             

                            Since debate is about CMMI - why not ask ourselves - what about ISO 9001, ISO 20000, ISO 15504, etc. as well as many other audits performed around the world (aerospace, automobile industry, food, pharmaceuticals, etc.) ..
                             
                            Are they all useless? Don't they add value? Are they all based on "insincere" ideas? Is the management throwing money for nothing?
                             
                            Just a bit more "food for thought" ...
                             

                             


                            To: cmmi_process_ improvement@ yahoogroups. com
                            From: orhan.kalayci@gmail.com
                            Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 19:28:51 -0400
                            Subject: Re: [CMMi Process Improvement] Sincerity in process improvement?

                             
                            Oh my god, you are right CMMI-based process improvements too require culture change then I should be mistaken in saying that CMMI-Dev is different from People-CMM, TSP, PSP however the truth is they all require cultural change.  Furthermore,  according to some Gartner reports (as said in my original message), It also necessary follows that CMMI-based process improvements should also fail by a rate of 75% as well.  It is certainly a false statement.  What a shame, I need to stop posting immediately. It is not fair to let me mislead people any more :)

                            Wait a minute, may be I am not too mistaken: Having an official CMMI maturity level may not mean success in process improvement.  Then if it is true, although most of the organizations fail in CMMI-based improvement they somehow manage to get official maturity levels :)) Oh yes, most certainly, that must be the explanation. An official CMMI maturity level may not necessarily  mean a success in process improvement, oh good god, it is a real relief. :))))  

                            But you are right in the sense that my statement, to be correct, it should look like this:  CMMI-Dev is different from the other models (unlike TSP, PSP) because it provides organizations with tools that help them to be seem as if they are successful in process improvemen t.  Although People-CMM does provide similar tools, having a maturity level in People-CMM is right now not very much appreciated by prospective clients and does not help an IT Dept in passing internal audits such as cobit, etc.  And it certainly does not help IT managers who managed to achieve a maturity level in people-cmm to get promoted.  

                            You are also so right that I still did not define what I mean by "sincerity in process improvement" Without my definition how I can assume people to understand sincerity means organization (senior management) is interested in real increase in productivity, efficiency and effectiveness not in getting a piece of paper saying that the organization successfully  demonstrated  enough evidence  that it is operating at a certain CMMI maturity level and continue to operate at that level of maturity for three more years.  How fool I am to assume that it is such an obvious thing :)

                            Finally, does an official CMMI  maturity level really bring an immediate cash flow into an organization?  Or an immediate sign of success for internal IT departments?  Oops, another false assumption of mine, I should immediately stop posting, please do not encourage me any further, I am dangerous :)))))

                            It is good to see the group getting a more fun place every day. :)

                            Peace,
                            Orhan
                            Toronto



                            2009/10/9 <harvey.stromberg@ comcast.net>
                             


                            I've told myself that I shouldn't be an enabler or encourage further postings, but I can't help but make some observations:
                             
                            1. You still haven't defined 'sincerity in process improvement' .
                            2. Your assertion about cash flow is unsupported by data.
                            3. You imply that unlike the other frameworks, CMMI-based process improvement doesn't require culture change.
                            4. Your conclusion about the motivation for CMMI investment is unrelated to the preceding assertions.



                            ____________ _________ _______
                            Harvey Stromberg
                             


                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Orhan KALAYCI" <orhan.kalayci@ gmail.com>
                            To: "cmmi process improvement" <cmmi_process_ improvement@ yahoogroups. com>
                            Sent: Thursday, October 8, 2009 11:24:57 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
                            Subject: Re: [CMMi Process Improvement] Sincerity in process improvement?

                            To understand why I listed these models, let us, look at the question:Which
                            one of the following models is totally different from others from the eye of
                            a senior manager:
                            1.  CMMI-Dev
                            2.  People-CMM
                            3.  TSP
                            4.  PSP
                            5.  No difference, they are all the same, from point of view of a senior
                            manager.

                            Answer:  CMMI-Dev is totally different from others because it
                            will generate an immediate positive cash flow (or immediate promotion or
                            demotion) whereas others promise a long term ROI if they really are
                            successfully implemented which is an extremely risky endeavor as it requires
                            a cultural change that the failure ratio of such initiatives (process
                            improvement or cultural change) is more than 75% according to some Gartner
                            reports  - So I believe most of the companies invest in CMMI not because
                            they really believe in process improvement but because their clients or
                            higher management (some audit reports) push for it.

                            Next question is "so what?" - "why is it (sincerity in process improvement
                            is) important?"

                            Peace,
                            Orhan
                            Toronto

                            2009/10/1 Rebecca Coplon <rmcoplon@hotmail. com>

                            >
                            >
                            > Orhan, are you theorizing that there's a necessary correlation between
                            > number of credentials (CMMI, People CMM, PSP, etc.) and a
                            > subjective perception of "sincerity in process improvement" ?
                            >
                            > In this case, how would you define "sincerity in process improvement" ?  I
                            > think that will help us to be able to see if multiple credentials is an
                            > effective measure.  At the moment, the concept of sincerity is too abstract
                            > to be able to tell.
                            >
                            > Orhan, you also tend to lead us down a trail over multiple messages.  I
                            > wonder if you could pull your thoughts together and send as close to a
                            > single email (with followup for clarifications) to share your thought,
                            > instead of sending it over time in bite-sized pieces.  I think that would
                            > make it easier on the rest of us to understand your points and respond
                            > usefully.
                            >
                            > -Rebecca
                            >
                            > ------------ --------- ---------
                            > To: cmmi_process_ improvement@ yahoogroups. com
                            > From: orhan.kalayci@ gmail.com
                            > Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 05:05:32 -0400
                            >
                            > Subject: Re: [CMMi Process Improvement] Sincerity in process improvement?
                            >
                            >
                            >  Ed,
                            >
                            > I don't think you got my point. Actually, you can't because I didn't make
                            > it clear yet.
                            >
                            > Did you see how I helped Jerry to make his point clear? I kept asking "what
                            > is your point?" and "so what?" at the end we've reached a win win situation
                            > where he made his point and we understand it.
                            >
                            > If you really want to help me, you may do it by askings questions like:
                            > "Orhan, what is your point? Suppose we have found 77.39% organizations are
                            > using CMMI but not People CMM or TSP nor PSP. Will you think these
                            > organizations aren't sincere in process improvement and even if so, so what?
                            > What is your point?"
                            >
                            > I think that would be a more helpful and constructive approach.
                            >
                            > Thanks,
                            > Orhan
                            > Toronto
                            >
                            >
                            > Sent from my iPhone
                            >
                            > On 2009-09-30, at 13:28, "EDWARD F WELLER III" <edwardfwelleriii@ msn.com>
                            > wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > 
                            >  Orhan
                            >
                            > I got your point, but one of the problems with many organizations is that
                            > they view the appraisal process as a certification and fall into the trap of
                            > 1) preparing for a certification type situation, 2) fail to understand what
                            > CMMI based improvement is about, 3) start looking at every subpractice and
                            > work product as a requirement, and I could go in
                            >
                            > I feel it is the duty of those of us that understand the model to
                            > speak/write as correctly as possible and not lead the people new to the CMMI
                            > into misunderstandings.
                            >
                            > As for People CMMI it does not appear these results are published by the
                            > SEI. While use of the People CMMI for other than name brand recognition, and
                            > TSP/PSP may be useful to  improved performance, it would not be a
                            > pre-requisite for sincere interest.
                            >
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > *From:* Orhan Kalayci <orhan.kalayci@ gmail.com>
                            > *To:* cmmi_process_ improvement@ yahoogroups. com
                            > *Cc:* <cmmi_process_ improvement@ yahoogroups. com><cmmi_process_ improvement@ yahoogroups. com%3E>
                            > *Sent:* Wednesday, September 30, 2009 8:54 AM
                            > *Subject:* Re: [CMMi Process Improvement] Sincerity in process
                            > improvement?
                            >
                            >
                            > Ed,
                            >
                            > Do you think you got my point? :))
                            >
                            > Peace,
                            > Orhan
                            > Toronto
                            >
                            >
                            > Sent from my iPhone
                            >
                            > On 2009-09-30, at 10:53, "EDWARD F WELLER III" <edwardfwelleriii@<edwardfwelleriii@ msn.com>

                            > msn.com> wrote:
                            >
                            >    
                            >  Orhan
                            >
                            > THere are no CMMI certified organizations.
                            >
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > *From:* Orhan KALAYCI <orhan.kalayci@ gmail.com>
                            > *To:* cmmi_process_ improvement@ yahoogroups. com
                            > *Sent:* Tuesday, September 29, 2009 7:27 PM
                            > *Subject:* [CMMi Process Improvement] Sincerity in process improvement?
                            >
                            >   Hi there,
                            >
                            > Does anybody have a figure for what percentage of CMMI certified
                            > organizations have also certified in People-CMM and/or using PSP, TSP?  By
                            > this percentage I assume to have an idea of sincere interest in process
                            > improvement, not in certification only.
                            >
                            > Thanks very much,
                            > Orhan
                            > Toronto
                            >





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                            Sent from my iPhone
                          • Larry
                            Please do not feed the bafoons Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ... From: Boris Mutafelija Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 22:14:53 To:
                            Message 13 of 22 , Oct 9, 2009
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Please do not feed the bafoons

                              Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry


                              From: Boris Mutafelija <boris_mirta@...>
                              Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 22:14:53 -0400
                              To: SPI groups<cmmi_process_improvement@yahoogroups.com>
                              Subject: RE: [CMMi Process Improvement] Sincerity in process improvement?

                               

                              Since debate is about CMMI - why not ask ourselves - what about ISO 9001, ISO 20000, ISO 15504, etc. as well as many other audits performed around the world (aerospace, automobile industry, food, pharmaceuticals, etc.) ..
                               
                              Are they all useless? Don't they add value? Are they all based on "insincere" ideas? Is the management throwing money for nothing?
                               
                              Just a bit more "food for thought" ...
                               

                               


                              To: cmmi_process_ improvement@ yahoogroups. com
                              From: orhan.kalayci@ gmail.com
                              Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 19:28:51 -0400
                              Subject: Re: [CMMi Process Improvement] Sincerity in process improvement?

                               
                              Oh my god, you are right CMMI-based process improvements too require culture change then I should be mistaken in saying that CMMI-Dev is different from People-CMM, TSP, PSP however the truth is they all require cultural change.  Furthermore,  according to some Gartner reports (as said in my original message), It also necessary follows that CMMI-based process improvements should also fail by a rate of 75% as well.  It is certainly a false statement.  What a shame, I need to stop posting immediately. It is not fair to let me mislead people any more :)

                              Wait a minute, may be I am not too mistaken: Having an official CMMI maturity level may not mean success in process improvement.  Then if it is true, although most of the organizations fail in CMMI-based improvement they somehow manage to get official maturity levels :)) Oh yes, most certainly, that must be the explanation. An official CMMI maturity level may not necessarily  mean a success in process improvement, oh good god, it is a real relief. :))))  

                              But you are right in the sense that my statement, to be correct, it should look like this:  CMMI-Dev is different from the other models (unlike TSP, PSP) because it provides organizations with tools that help them to be seem as if they are successful in process improvemen t.  Although People-CMM does provide similar tools, having a maturity level in People-CMM is right now not very much appreciated by prospective clients and does not help an IT Dept in passing internal audits such as cobit, etc.  And it certainly does not help IT managers who managed to achieve a maturity level in people-cmm to get promoted.  

                              You are also so right that I still did not define what I mean by "sincerity in process improvement" Without my definition how I can assume people to understand sincerity means organization (senior management) is interested in real increase in productivity, efficiency and effectiveness not in getting a piece of paper saying that the organization successfully  demonstrated  enough evidence  that it is operating at a certain CMMI maturity level and continue to operate at that level of maturity for three more years.  How fool I am to assume that it is such an obvious thing :)

                              Finally, does an official CMMI  maturity level really bring an immediate cash flow into an organization?  Or an immediate sign of success for internal IT departments?  Oops, another false assumption of mine, I should immediately stop posting, please do not encourage me any further, I am dangerous :)))))

                              It is good to see the group getting a more fun place every day. :)

                              Peace,
                              Orhan
                              Toronto



                              2009/10/9 <harvey.stromberg@ comcast.net>
                               


                              I've told myself that I shouldn't be an enabler or encourage further postings, but I can't help but make some observations:
                               
                              1. You still haven't defined 'sincerity in process improvement' .
                              2. Your assertion about cash flow is unsupported by data.
                              3. You imply that unlike the other frameworks, CMMI-based process improvement doesn't require culture change.
                              4. Your conclusion about the motivation for CMMI investment is unrelated to the preceding assertions.



                              ____________ _________ _______
                              Harvey Stromberg
                               


                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "Orhan KALAYCI" <orhan.kalayci@ gmail.com>
                              To: "cmmi process improvement" <cmmi_process_ improvement@ yahoogroups. com>
                              Sent: Thursday, October 8, 2009 11:24:57 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
                              Subject: Re: [CMMi Process Improvement] Sincerity in process improvement?

                              To understand why I listed these models, let us, look at the question:Which
                              one of the following models is totally different from others from the eye of
                              a senior manager:
                              1.  CMMI-Dev
                              2.  People-CMM
                              3.  TSP
                              4.  PSP
                              5.  No difference, they are all the same, from point of view of a senior
                              manager.

                              Answer:  CMMI-Dev is totally different from others because it
                              will generate an immediate positive cash flow (or immediate promotion or
                              demotion) whereas others promise a long term ROI if they really are
                              successfully implemented which is an extremely risky endeavor as it requires
                              a cultural change that the failure ratio of such initiatives (process
                              improvement or cultural change) is more than 75% according to some Gartner
                              reports  - So I believe most of the companies invest in CMMI not because
                              they really believe in process improvement but because their clients or
                              higher management (some audit reports) push for it.

                              Next question is "so what?" - "why is it (sincerity in process improvement
                              is) important?"

                              Peace,
                              Orhan
                              Toronto

                              2009/10/1 Rebecca Coplon <rmcoplon@hotmail. com>

                              >
                              >
                              > Orhan, are you theorizing that there's a necessary correlation between
                              > number of credentials (CMMI, People CMM, PSP, etc.) and a
                              > subjective perception of "sincerity in process improvement" ?
                              >
                              > In this case, how would you define "sincerity in process improvement" ?  I
                              > think that will help us to be able to see if multiple credentials is an
                              > effective measure.  At the moment, the concept of sincerity is too abstract
                              > to be able to tell.
                              >
                              > Orhan, you also tend to lead us down a trail over multiple messages.  I
                              > wonder if you could pull your thoughts together and send as close to a
                              > single email (with followup for clarifications) to share your thought,
                              > instead of sending it over time in bite-sized pieces.  I think that would
                              > make it easier on the rest of us to understand your points and respond
                              > usefully.
                              >
                              > -Rebecca
                              >
                              > ------------ --------- ---------
                              > To: cmmi_process_ improvement@ yahoogroups. com
                              > From: orhan.kalayci@ gmail.com
                              > Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 05:05:32 -0400
                              >
                              > Subject: Re: [CMMi Process Improvement] Sincerity in process improvement?
                              >
                              >
                              >  Ed,
                              >
                              > I don't think you got my point. Actually, you can't because I didn't make
                              > it clear yet.
                              >
                              > Did you see how I helped Jerry to make his point clear? I kept asking "what
                              > is your point?" and "so what?" at the end we've reached a win win situation
                              > where he made his point and we understand it.
                              >
                              > If you really want to help me, you may do it by askings questions like:
                              > "Orhan, what is your point? Suppose we have found 77.39% organizations are
                              > using CMMI but not People CMM or TSP nor PSP. Will you think these
                              > organizations aren't sincere in process improvement and even if so, so what?
                              > What is your point?"
                              >
                              > I think that would be a more helpful and constructive approach.
                              >
                              > Thanks,
                              > Orhan
                              > Toronto
                              >
                              >
                              > Sent from my iPhone
                              >
                              > On 2009-09-30, at 13:28, "EDWARD F WELLER III" <edwardfwelleriii@ msn.com>
                              > wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > 
                              >  Orhan
                              >
                              > I got your point, but one of the problems with many organizations is that
                              > they view the appraisal process as a certification and fall into the trap of
                              > 1) preparing for a certification type situation, 2) fail to understand what
                              > CMMI based improvement is about, 3) start looking at every subpractice and
                              > work product as a requirement, and I could go in
                              >
                              > I feel it is the duty of those of us that understand the model to
                              > speak/write as correctly as possible and not lead the people new to the CMMI
                              > into misunderstandings.
                              >
                              > As for People CMMI it does not appear these results are published by the
                              > SEI. While use of the People CMMI for other than name brand recognition, and
                              > TSP/PSP may be useful to  improved performance, it would not be a
                              > pre-requisite for sincere interest.
                              >
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > *From:* Orhan Kalayci <orhan.kalayci@ gmail.com>
                              > *To:* cmmi_process_ improvement@ yahoogroups. com
                              > *Cc:* <cmmi_process_ improvement@ yahoogroups. com><cmmi_process_ improvement@ yahoogroups. com%3E>
                              > *Sent:* Wednesday, September 30, 2009 8:54 AM
                              > *Subject:* Re: [CMMi Process Improvement] Sincerity in process
                              > improvement?
                              >
                              >
                              > Ed,
                              >
                              > Do you think you got my point? :))
                              >
                              > Peace,
                              > Orhan
                              > Toronto
                              >
                              >
                              > Sent from my iPhone
                              >
                              > On 2009-09-30, at 10:53, "EDWARD F WELLER III" <edwardfwelleriii@<edwardfwelleriii@ msn.com>

                              > msn.com> wrote:
                              >
                              >    
                              >  Orhan
                              >
                              > THere are no CMMI certified organizations.
                              >
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > *From:* Orhan KALAYCI <orhan.kalayci@ gmail.com>
                              > *To:* cmmi_process_ improvement@ yahoogroups. com
                              > *Sent:* Tuesday, September 29, 2009 7:27 PM
                              > *Subject:* [CMMi Process Improvement] Sincerity in process improvement?
                              >
                              >   Hi there,
                              >
                              > Does anybody have a figure for what percentage of CMMI certified
                              > organizations have also certified in People-CMM and/or using PSP, TSP?  By
                              > this percentage I assume to have an idea of sincere interest in process
                              > improvement, not in certification only.
                              >
                              > Thanks very much,
                              > Orhan
                              > Toronto
                              >





                              Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now.
                            • Patrick OToole
                              Orhan, I think it s a bit naive, and more than a bit demeaning to imply that the only reason people would adopt ISO standards is for marketing purposes, which
                              Message 14 of 22 , Oct 10, 2009
                              • 0 Attachment
                                
                                 
                                Orhan,
                                 
                                I think it's a bit naive, and more than a bit demeaning to imply that the only reason people would adopt ISO standards is for marketing purposes, which also implies that CMMI is the only REAL improvement path that reasonable people should consider.
                                 
                                When all you have is a hammer...
                                 
                                Regards,
                                 
                                Pat
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 10:43 PM
                                Subject: Re: [CMMi Process Improvement] Sincerity in process improvement?

                                 

                                Hi Boris,

                                That's a very good point. One should be extremely naive to assume that management throws out money for nothing. Any experienced, non naive professional knows management never put money into something unless they expect more money in return. There even is a term for this - ROI - return of investment.

                                What I am saying is management puts money for these audits because they know they will get more money in return by using them in their marketing efforts to create new clients or more business with existence clients. So they are mostly linked to marketing efforts or in other words increasing market share, mostly not linked to real process improvement.

                                Internal departments have similar but a different story which I may explain only if it really is requested so badly :)))

                                Thanks,
                                Orhan
                                Toronto


                                Sent from my iPhone

                                On 2009-10-09, at 22:14, Boris Mutafelija <boris_mirta@ hotmail.com> wrote:

                                 

                                Since debate is about CMMI - why not ask ourselves - what about ISO 9001, ISO 20000, ISO 15504, etc. as well as many other audits performed around the world (aerospace, automobile industry, food, pharmaceuticals, etc.) ..
                                 
                                Are they all useless? Don't they add value? Are they all based on "insincere" ideas? Is the management throwing money for nothing?
                                 
                                Just a bit more "food for thought" ...
                                 

                                 


                                To: cmmi_process_ improvement@ yahoogroups. com
                                From: orhan.kalayci@gmail.com
                                Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 19:28:51 -0400
                                Subject: Re: [CMMi Process Improvement] Sincerity in process improvement?

                                 
                                Oh my god, you are right CMMI-based process improvements too require culture change then I should be mistaken in saying that CMMI-Dev is different from People-CMM, TSP, PSP however the truth is they all require cultural change.  Furthermore,  according to some Gartner reports (as said in my original message), It also necessary follows that CMMI-based process improvements should also fail by a rate of 75% as well.  It is certainly a false statement.  What a shame, I need to stop posting immediately. It is not fair to let me mislead people any more :)

                                Wait a minute, may be I am not too mistaken: Having an official CMMI maturity level may not mean success in process improvement.  Then if it is true, although most of the organizations fail in CMMI-based improvement they somehow manage to get official maturity levels :)) Oh yes, most certainly, that must be the explanation. An official CMMI maturity level may not necessarily  mean a success in process improvement, oh good god, it is a real relief. :))))  

                                But you are right in the sense that my statement, to be correct, it should look like this:  CMMI-Dev is different from the other models (unlike TSP, PSP) because it provides organizations with tools that help them to be seem as if they are successful in process improvemen t.  Although People-CMM does provide similar tools, having a maturity level in People-CMM is right now not very much appreciated by prospective clients and does not help an IT Dept in passing internal audits such as cobit, etc.  And it certainly does not help IT managers who managed to achieve a maturity level in people-cmm to get promoted.  

                                You are also so right that I still did not define what I mean by "sincerity in process improvement" Without my definition how I can assume people to understand sincerity means organization (senior management) is interested in real increase in productivity, efficiency and effectiveness not in getting a piece of paper saying that the organization successfully  demonstrated  enough evidence  that it is operating at a certain CMMI maturity level and continue to operate at that level of maturity for three more years.  How fool I am to assume that it is such an obvious thing :)

                                Finally, does an official CMMI  maturity level really bring an immediate cash flow into an organization?  Or an immediate sign of success for internal IT departments?  Oops, another false assumption of mine, I should immediately stop posting, please do not encourage me any further, I am dangerous :)))))

                                It is good to see the group getting a more fun place every day. :)

                                Peace,
                                Orhan
                                Toronto



                                2009/10/9 <harvey.stromberg@ comcast.net>
                                 


                                I've told myself that I shouldn't be an enabler or encourage further postings, but I can't help but make some observations:
                                 
                                1. You still haven't defined 'sincerity in process improvement' .
                                2. Your assertion about cash flow is unsupported by data.
                                3. You imply that unlike the other frameworks, CMMI-based process improvement doesn't require culture change.
                                4. Your conclusion about the motivation for CMMI investment is unrelated to the preceding assertions.



                                ____________ _________ _______
                                Harvey Stromberg
                                 


                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "Orhan KALAYCI" <orhan.kalayci@ gmail.com>
                                To: "cmmi process improvement" <cmmi_process_ improvement@ yahoogroups. com>
                                Sent: Thursday, October 8, 2009 11:24:57 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
                                Subject: Re: [CMMi Process Improvement] Sincerity in process improvement?

                                To understand why I listed these models, let us, look at the question:Which
                                one of the following models is totally different from others from the eye of
                                a senior manager:
                                1.  CMMI-Dev
                                2.  People-CMM
                                3.  TSP
                                4.  PSP
                                5.  No difference, they are all the same, from point of view of a senior
                                manager.

                                Answer:  CMMI-Dev is totally different from others because it
                                will generate an immediate positive cash flow (or immediate promotion or
                                demotion) whereas others promise a long term ROI if they really are
                                successfully implemented which is an extremely risky endeavor as it requires
                                a cultural change that the failure ratio of such initiatives (process
                                improvement or cultural change) is more than 75% according to some Gartner
                                reports  - So I believe most of the companies invest in CMMI not because
                                they really believe in process improvement but because their clients or
                                higher management (some audit reports) push for it.

                                Next question is "so what?" - "why is it (sincerity in process improvement
                                is) important?"

                                Peace,
                                Orhan
                                Toronto

                                2009/10/1 Rebecca Coplon <rmcoplon@hotmail. com>

                                >
                                >
                                > Orhan, are you theorizing that there's a necessary correlation between
                                > number of credentials (CMMI, People CMM, PSP, etc.) and a
                                > subjective perception of "sincerity in process improvement" ?
                                >
                                > In this case, how would you define "sincerity in process improvement" ?  I
                                > think that will help us to be able to see if multiple credentials is an
                                > effective measure.  At the moment, the concept of sincerity is too abstract
                                > to be able to tell.
                                >
                                > Orhan, you also tend to lead us down a trail over multiple messages.  I
                                > wonder if you could pull your thoughts together and send as close to a
                                > single email (with followup for clarifications) to share your thought,
                                > instead of sending it over time in bite-sized pieces.  I think that would
                                > make it easier on the rest of us to understand your points and respond
                                > usefully.
                                >
                                > -Rebecca
                                >
                                > ------------ --------- ---------
                                > To: cmmi_process_ improvement@ yahoogroups. com
                                > From: orhan.kalayci@ gmail.com
                                > Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 05:05:32 -0400
                                >
                                > Subject: Re: [CMMi Process Improvement] Sincerity in process improvement?
                                >
                                >
                                >  Ed,
                                >
                                > I don't think you got my point. Actually, you can't because I didn't make
                                > it clear yet.
                                >
                                > Did you see how I helped Jerry to make his point clear? I kept asking "what
                                > is your point?" and "so what?" at the end we've reached a win win situation
                                > where he made his point and we understand it.
                                >
                                > If you really want to help me, you may do it by askings questions like:
                                > "Orhan, what is your point? Suppose we have found 77.39% organizations are
                                > using CMMI but not People CMM or TSP nor PSP. Will you think these
                                > organizations aren't sincere in process improvement and even if so, so what?
                                > What is your point?"
                                >
                                > I think that would be a more helpful and constructive approach.
                                >
                                > Thanks,
                                > Orhan
                                > Toronto
                                >
                                >
                                > Sent from my iPhone
                                >
                                > On 2009-09-30, at 13:28, "EDWARD F WELLER III" <edwardfwelleriii@ msn.com>
                                > wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > 
                                >  Orhan
                                >
                                > I got your point, but one of the problems with many organizations is that
                                > they view the appraisal process as a certification and fall into the trap of
                                > 1) preparing for a certification type situation, 2) fail to understand what
                                > CMMI based improvement is about, 3) start looking at every subpractice and
                                > work product as a requirement, and I could go in
                                >
                                > I feel it is the duty of those of us that understand the model to
                                > speak/write as correctly as possible and not lead the people new to the CMMI
                                > into misunderstandings.
                                >
                                > As for People CMMI it does not appear these results are published by the
                                > SEI. While use of the People CMMI for other than name brand recognition, and
                                > TSP/PSP may be useful to  improved performance, it would not be a
                                > pre-requisite for sincere interest.
                                >
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > *From:* Orhan Kalayci <orhan.kalayci@ gmail.com>
                                > *To:* cmmi_process_ improvement@ yahoogroups. com
                                > *Cc:* <cmmi_process_ improvement@ yahoogroups. com><cmmi_process_ improvement@ yahoogroups. com%3E>
                                > *Sent:* Wednesday, September 30, 2009 8:54 AM
                                > *Subject:* Re: [CMMi Process Improvement] Sincerity in process
                                > improvement?
                                >
                                >
                                > Ed,
                                >
                                > Do you think you got my point? :))
                                >
                                > Peace,
                                > Orhan
                                > Toronto
                                >
                                >
                                > Sent from my iPhone
                                >
                                > On 2009-09-30, at 10:53, "EDWARD F WELLER III" <edwardfwelleriii@<edwardfwelleriii@ msn.com>

                                > msn.com> wrote:
                                >
                                >    
                                >  Orhan
                                >
                                > THere are no CMMI certified organizations.
                                >
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > *From:* Orhan KALAYCI <orhan.kalayci@ gmail.com>
                                > *To:* cmmi_process_ improvement@ yahoogroups. com
                                > *Sent:* Tuesday, September 29, 2009 7:27 PM
                                > *Subject:* [CMMi Process Improvement] Sincerity in process improvement?
                                >
                                >   Hi there,
                                >
                                > Does anybody have a figure for what percentage of CMMI certified
                                > organizations have also certified in People-CMM and/or using PSP, TSP?  By
                                > this percentage I assume to have an idea of sincere interest in process
                                > improvement, not in certification only.
                                >
                                > Thanks very much,
                                > Orhan
                                > Toronto
                                >





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                              • Jeffrey Dalton
                                From: Orhan Kalayci Subject: Re: [CMMi Process Improvement] Sincerity in process improvement? To: bob@robinson.net Cc:
                                Message 15 of 22 , Oct 10, 2009
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                                  From: Orhan Kalayci <orhan.kalayci@...>
                                  Subject: Re: [CMMi Process Improvement] Sincerity in process improvement?
                                  To: bob@...
                                  Cc: jeff@...
                                  Date: Saturday, October 10, 2009, 11:07 AM

                                  Bob,
                                  I want you not approve that message from Jeff for the general distribution at least for the sake of Jeff. :)
                                  Thanks,
                                  Orhan 

                                  Sent from my iPhone

                                  On 2009-10-10, at 11:03, Jeffrey Dalton <jeff@...> wrote:

                                  Orhan,
                                   
                                  Why are you not using the message board for messages and sending this dribble to our private email addresses?  Did I invite you to do that?  You are not welcomed to spam me.
                                   
                                  You have he right to post any nonsense you want....please do it on the message board and don't clutter my mail box with it.
                                   

                                  --- On Sat, 10/10/09, Orhan Kalayci <orhan.kalayci@...> wrote:

                                  From: Orhan Kalayci <orhan.kalayci@...>
                                  Subject: Fwd: [CMMi Process Improvement] Sincerity in process improvement?
                                  To: "larryf276@..." <larryf276@...>
                                  Cc: "boris_mirta@..." <boris_mirta@...>, "jeff@..." <jeff@...>, "EDWARD F WELLER III" <edwardfwelleriii@...>, "bob@..." <bob@...>
                                  Date: Saturday, October 10, 2009, 10:51 AM

                                  Larry,

                                  Do you think I do not deserve respect? Are you aware that I have a family I care and a professional reputation I need to maintain?

                                  Actually, I am a farther of one, having a six figure income living in Toronto. My wife is a lawyer. I work for a crown agency in government of Ontario.

                                  If you have a comment about my posts in cmmi yahoo group please feel free to make it so but do not just be disrespectful to me. Any individual deserves respect.

                                  Thanks,
                                  Orhan
                                  Toronto


                                  Sent from my iPhone

                                  Begin forwarded message:

                                  From: "Larry" <larryf276@...>
                                  Date: October 10, 2009 1:30:47 EDT
                                  To: "Boris Mutafelija" <boris_mirta@...>, "Cmmi_Process_Improvement" <cmmi_process_improvement@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Subject: Re: [CMMi Process Improvement] Sincerity in process improvement?
                                  Reply-To: cmmi_process_improvement@yahoogroups.com

                                   
                                  Please do not feed the bafoons
                                  Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

                                  From: Boris Mutafelija <boris_mirta@hotmail.com>
                                  Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 22:14:53 -0400
                                  To: SPI groups<cmmi_process_ improvement@ yahoogroups. com>
                                  Subject: RE: [CMMi Process Improvement] Sincerity in process improvement?

                                   
                                  Since debate is about CMMI - why not ask ourselves - what about ISO 9001, ISO 20000, ISO 15504, etc. as well as many other audits performed around the world (aerospace, automobile industry, food, pharmaceuticals, etc.) ..
                                   
                                  Are they all useless? Don't they add value? Are they all based on "insincere" ideas? Is the management throwing money for nothing?
                                   
                                  Just a bit more "food for thought" ...
                                   

                                   

                                  To: cmmi_process_ improvement@ yahoogroups. com
                                  From: orhan.kalayci@gmail.com
                                  Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 19:28:51 -0400
                                  Subject: Re: [CMMi Process Improvement] Sincerity in process improvement?

                                   
                                  Oh my god, you are right CMMI-based process improvements too require culture change then I should be mistaken in saying that CMMI-Dev is different from People-CMM, TSP, PSP however the truth is they all require cultural change.  Furthermore,  according to some Gartner reports (as said in my original message), It also necessary follows that CMMI-based process improvements should also fail by a rate of 75% as well.  It is certainly a false statement.  What a shame, I need to stop posting immediately. It is not fair to let me mislead people any more :)

                                  Wait a minute, may be I am not too mistaken: Having an official CMMI maturity level may not mean success in process improvement.  Then if it is true, although most of the organizations fail in CMMI-based improvement they somehow manage to get official maturity levels :)) Oh yes, most certainly, that must be the explanation. An official CMMI maturity level may not necessarily  mean a success in process improvement, oh good god, it is a real relief. :))))  

                                  But you are right in the sense that my statement, to be correct, it should look like this:  CMMI-Dev is different from the other models (unlike TSP, PSP) because it provides organizations with tools that help them to be seem as if they are successful in process improvemen t.  Although People-CMM does provide similar tools, having a maturity level in People-CMM is right now not very much appreciated by prospective clients and does not help an IT Dept in passing internal audits such as cobit, etc.  And it certainly does not help IT managers who managed to achieve a maturity level in people-cmm to get promoted.  

                                  You are also so right that I still did not define what I mean by "sincerity in process improvement" Without my definition how I can assume people to understand sincerity means organization (senior management) is interested in real increase in productivity, efficiency and effectiveness not in getting a piece of paper saying that the organization successfully  demonstrated  enough evidence  that it is operating at a certain CMMI maturity level and continue to operate at that level of maturity for three more years.  How fool I am to assume that it is such an obvious thing :)

                                  Finally, does an official CMMI  maturity level really bring an immediate cash flow into an organization?  Or an immediate sign of success for internal IT departments?  Oops, another false assumption of mine, I should immediately stop posting, please do not encourage me any further, I am dangerous :)))))

                                  It is good to see the group getting a more fun place every day. :)

                                  Peace,
                                  Orhan
                                  Toronto



                                  2009/10/9 <harvey.stromberg@ comcast.net>
                                   

                                  I've told myself that I shouldn't be an enabler or encourage further postings, but I can't help but make some observations:
                                   
                                  1. You still haven't defined 'sincerity in process improvement' .
                                  2. Your assertion about cash flow is unsupported by data.
                                  3. You imply that unlike the other frameworks, CMMI-based process improvement doesn't require culture change.
                                  4. Your conclusion about the motivation for CMMI investment is unrelated to the preceding assertions.



                                  ____________ _________ _______
                                  Harvey Stromberg
                                   


                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: "Orhan KALAYCI" <orhan.kalayci@ gmail.com>
                                  To: "cmmi process improvement" <cmmi_process_ improvement@ yahoogroups. com>
                                  Sent: Thursday, October 8, 2009 11:24:57 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
                                  Subject: Re: [CMMi Process Improvement] Sincerity in process improvement?

                                  To understand why I listed these models, let us, look at the question:Which
                                  one of the following models is totally different from others from the eye of
                                  a senior manager:
                                  1.  CMMI-Dev
                                  2.  People-CMM
                                  3.  TSP
                                  4.  PSP
                                  5.  No difference, they are all the same, from point of view of a senior
                                  manager.

                                  Answer:  CMMI-Dev is totally different from others because it
                                  will generate an immediate positive cash flow (or immediate promotion or
                                  demotion) whereas others promise a long term ROI if they really are
                                  successfully implemented which is an extremely risky endeavor as it requires
                                  a cultural change that the failure ratio of such initiatives (process
                                  improvement or cultural change) is more than 75% according to some Gartner
                                  reports  - So I believe most of the companies invest in CMMI not because
                                  they really believe in process improvement but because their clients or
                                  higher management (some audit reports) push for it.

                                  Next question is "so what?" - "why is it (sincerity in process improvement
                                  is) important?"

                                  Peace,
                                  Orhan
                                  Toronto

                                  2009/10/1 Rebecca Coplon <rmcoplon@hotmail. com>

                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Orhan, are you theorizing that there's a necessary correlation between
                                  > number of credentials (CMMI, People CMM, PSP, etc.) and a
                                  > subjective perception of "sincerity in process improvement" ?
                                  >
                                  > In this case, how would you define "sincerity in process improvement" ?  I
                                  > think that will help us to be able to see if multiple credentials is an
                                  > effective measure.  At the moment, the concept of sincerity is too abstract
                                  > to be able to tell.
                                  >
                                  > Orhan, you also tend to lead us down a trail over multiple messages.  I
                                  > wonder if you could pull your thoughts together and send as close to a
                                  > single email (with followup for clarifications) to share your thought,
                                  > instead of sending it over time in bite-sized pieces.  I think that would
                                  > make it easier on the rest of us to understand your points and respond
                                  > usefully.
                                  >
                                  > -Rebecca
                                  >
                                  > ------------ --------- ---------
                                  > To: cmmi_process_ improvement@ yahoogroups. com
                                  > From: orhan.kalayci@ gmail.com
                                  > Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 05:05:32 -0400
                                  >
                                  > Subject: Re: [CMMi Process Improvement] Sincerity in process improvement?
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >  Ed,
                                  >
                                  > I don't think you got my point. Actually, you can't because I didn't make
                                  > it clear yet.
                                  >
                                  > Did you see how I helped Jerry to make his point clear? I kept asking "what
                                  > is your point?" and "so what?" at the end we've reached a win win situation
                                  > where he made his point and we understand it.
                                  >
                                  > If you really want to help me, you may do it by askings questions like:
                                  > "Orhan, what is your point? Suppose we have found 77.39% organizations are
                                  > using CMMI but not People CMM or TSP nor PSP. Will you think these
                                  > organizations aren't sincere in process improvement and even if so, so what?
                                  > What is your point?"
                                  >
                                  > I think that would be a more helpful and constructive approach.
                                  >
                                  > Thanks,
                                  > Orhan
                                  > Toronto
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Sent from my iPhone
                                  >
                                  > On 2009-09-30, at 13:28, "EDWARD F WELLER III" <edwardfwelleriii@ msn.com>
                                  > wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > 
                                  >  Orhan
                                  >
                                  > I got your point, but one of the problems with many organizations is that
                                  > they view the appraisal process as a certification and fall into the trap of
                                  > 1) preparing for a certification type situation, 2) fail to understand what
                                  > CMMI based improvement is about, 3) start looking at every subpractice and
                                  > work product as a requirement, and I could go in
                                  >
                                  > I feel it is the duty of those of us that understand the model to
                                  > speak/write as correctly as possible and not lead the people new to the CMMI
                                  > into misunderstandings.
                                  >
                                  > As for People CMMI it does not appear these results are published by the
                                  > SEI. While use of the People CMMI for other than name brand recognition, and
                                  > TSP/PSP may be useful to  improved performance, it would not be a
                                  > pre-requisite for sincere interest.
                                  >
                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > *From:* Orhan Kalayci <orhan.kalayci@ gmail.com>
                                  > *To:* cmmi_process_ improvement@ yahoogroups. com
                                  > *Cc:* <cmmi_process_ improvement@ yahoogroups. com><cmmi_process_ improvement@ yahoogroups. com%3E>
                                  > *Sent:* Wednesday, September 30, 2009 8:54 AM
                                  > *Subject:* Re: [CMMi Process Improvement] Sincerity in process
                                  > improvement?
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Ed,
                                  >
                                  > Do you think you got my point? :))
                                  >
                                  > Peace,
                                  > Orhan
                                  > Toronto
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Sent from my iPhone
                                  >
                                  > On 2009-09-30, at 10:53, "EDWARD F WELLER III" <edwardfwelleriii@<edwardfwelleriii@ msn.com>

                                  > msn.com> wrote:
                                  >
                                  >    
                                  >  Orhan
                                  >
                                  > THere are no CMMI certified organizations.
                                  >
                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > *From:* Orhan KALAYCI <orhan.kalayci@ gmail.com>
                                  > *To:* cmmi_process_ improvement@ yahoogroups. com
                                  > *Sent:* Tuesday, September 29, 2009 7:27 PM
                                  > *Subject:* [CMMi Process Improvement] Sincerity in process improvement?
                                  >
                                  >   Hi there,
                                  >
                                  > Does anybody have a figure for what percentage of CMMI certified
                                  > organizations have also certified in People-CMM and/or using PSP, TSP?  By
                                  > this percentage I assume to have an idea of sincere interest in process
                                  > improvement, not in certification only.
                                  >
                                  > Thanks very much,
                                  > Orhan
                                  > Toronto
                                  >





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                                  Sent from my iPhone
                                • punemahesh
                                  Orhan, You can simply download the Appraisal Data from SEI website (it s free) and using MS excel you can find our required details. Mahesh Deswandikar
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Oct 27, 2009
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                                    Orhan,

                                    You can simply download the Appraisal Data from SEI website (it's free) and using MS excel you can find our required details.

                                    Mahesh Deswandikar

                                    --- In cmmi_process_improvement@yahoogroups.com, Orhan KALAYCI <orhan.kalayci@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Hi there,
                                    > Does anybody have a figure for what percentage of CMMI certified
                                    > organizations have also certified in People-CMM and/or using PSP, TSP? By
                                    > this percentage I assume to have an idea of sincere interest in process
                                    > improvement, not in certification only.
                                    >
                                    > Thanks very much,
                                    > Orhan
                                    > Toronto
                                    >
                                  • EDWARD F WELLER III
                                    Actually you cannot as not all appraisals end up being recorded in the PARS data - and People-CMM, PSP, and TSP are not included ... From:
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Oct 28, 2009
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                                      Actually you cannot as not all appraisals end up being recorded in the PARS data - and People-CMM, PSP, and TSP are not included
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 9:47 PM
                                      Subject: [CMMi Process Improvement] Re: Sincerity in process improvement?

                                       

                                      Orhan,

                                      You can simply download the Appraisal Data from SEI website (it's free) and using MS excel you can find our required details.

                                      Mahesh Deswandikar

                                      --- In cmmi_process_ improvement@ yahoogroups. com, Orhan KALAYCI <orhan.kalayci@ ...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Hi there,
                                      > Does anybody have a figure for what percentage of CMMI certified
                                      > organizations have also certified in People-CMM and/or using PSP, TSP? By
                                      > this percentage I assume to have an idea of sincere interest in process
                                      > improvement, not in certification only.
                                      >
                                      > Thanks very much,
                                      > Orhan
                                      > Toronto
                                      >

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