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Quarterly Surveys...Here, Here!

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  • Chris McDowell
    Here, Here! You know, I recall a time when we used to have routine surveys, at least quarterly, over drinks at Uncle T s place - Casa Sanchez - the best
    Message 1 of 14 , Jun 28, 2010
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      Here, Here!

      You know, I recall a time when we used to have routine surveys, at least quarterly, over drinks at Uncle T's place - Casa Sanchez - the best possible place to commune and share our feelings and thoughts on all matters UWHockey, etc.  There's no agenda or talking points, so we always talked away until around 11 PM or so...or until Richard from upstairs "blew a gasket" (no pun) for the 3rd time or so...and then we'd send Sparky out to calm him down.

      I say it's high time for a quarterly meeting.  Those favoring a more rigid application of parliamentary procedure need not attend.  And...I hereby volunteer to be your BBQ Master at the next Un-Official Quarterly Survey at Uncle T's Place (assuming I'm in town), and the only question left is when the next Quarterly Survey will be???

      --C. Clavin



       Perhaps even a quarterly survey is a good idea.  We do want to hear from people, because no matter what clubs the committee members come from, we serve all.
       
      --Terry

    • Chris McDowell
      All, Jose... Can you share some examples of the general feeling of the West Coast being under-represented? Maybe I m not paying attention, but I haven t felt
      Message 2 of 14 , Jun 28, 2010
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        All, Jose...

        Can you share some examples of the general feeling of the West Coast being under-represented?  Maybe I'm not paying attention, but I haven't felt that way.  Please do share as we value your opinion...

        --C. Clavin




        From: José H. Espinosa <jhespinosa@...>
        To: Uncle Terry <uncleterry@...>
        Cc: Sean Avent <seanavent@...>; San Francisco Underwater Hockey google group <sfuwh@...>; clubpuck@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Mon, June 28, 2010 10:00:33 AM
        Subject: Re: [sfuwh] Re: [clubpuck] Fwd: Important Announcement

         

        Hey all,


        I have talk about this with other San Francisco hockey players and we have the general felling that the west coast is underrepresented on the Governing Committee.  It is not my intention to stack the Governing Committee with people of just one region, and I would definitely not be running if there were another person from the west coast on the GC.

        I do believe that having geographical diversity on the Governing Committee is crucial for achieving it's goals.  Each of the region and clubs have something valuable to contribute to hockey.  For example, San Francisco has a Kid's hockey practice that I will like to see replicated in other parts of the country.

        Jose

        On Jun 27, 2010, at 3:01 PM, Uncle Terry wrote:

        Sean,
         
        Whether we agree or disagree on specific points, this has been a good discussion.  One small inaccuracy on your part is that last year voters were asked not to vote for more than *2* people from a given region.  But you are correct that the western region encompasses people from the 8 clubs mentioned (plus Bellingham & Chico and any other clubs in the west), and relative proportions may be off, especially since only one person was elected from this region.  And some may consider it more desirable than others that more representatives come from their region.  Each is entitled to his own opinion.  And when we first created the bylaws & governing committee, we knew it was a start; an imperfect one, but one we could grow from.
         
        I didn't mean to sound discouraging about voting.  Even if I think voting as a bloc is not ideal, at least people will be voting, and the will of the people should prevail.
         
        I will say that communcations from the governing committee have not been perfect, and for that I apologize.  It's something we're actively working on (anyone interested in volunteering to help with the website?).  You suggestion of a survey is a very good one, and something I'll discuss with the committee right away-  we may even be able to combine it with the upcoming elections.  Perhaps even a quarterly survey is a good idea.  We do want to hear from people, because no matter what clubs the committee members come from, we serve all.
         
        --Terry
        I'll try to answer with quick responses, this time inserting my opinions:

        On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 3:32 PM, Uncle Terry <uncleterry@usa. net> wrote:
        Sean,
         
        I appreciate your keeping personal opinion out of it, and I shall try to do the same.
         
        What is the purpose of having "a representative number of votes on the board".  The only way that a club could have a "representative" number of votes on the committee would be if that club had exactly 1/7 of the players in the country.  And what does it mean for a club 
        to "have votes"?  This isn't Congress, where the elected representative spend their time sending pork to their own districts.  I can't think of a single decision made the the Governing Committee that could be interpreted as favoring one club over another. 
         
        Sparky: I think the club wanted a more representative ratio.  I think they feel that the number of players and clubs on the West coast are currently under-represented - not just the SF club. I'm glad to hear that the board is not favoring clubs (and I don't think at this stage in Hockey that it's very possible). Part of that feeling I think is because most of the local players have no idea who the other people are. I also think that even though the board is doing a great job and representing all uwh players well, the board members, even those who come from a players own region. are greatly unknown to SF players. 
         
        The reason that geographical diversification was emphasized last time was to minimize the likelihood that no part of the country would feel left out, because no one knew of their teams or playing situations, etc.  For instance, if no one was on the committee from the midwest, then the committee might not be well informed of how things are done at the various midwestern tournaments, or who the key people were from various teams, etc.  Club Puck & San Francisco could vote for 7 people from the bay area, and no other region would be heard from.  The USOA board at one time wanted us to have specific regional members (i.e., exactly one committee member from each region), but most people thought that wasn't a good way to do it.

        Sparky: I may be wrong but I think the limit was that was understood was that we could vote for only one person from SF, Club Puck, Sacramento, San Diego, LA, Santa Rosa, Oregon and Seattle. And the club, in general, thought that one person on the board under represented that entire population. Personally, I can't be sure, because I'm not sure exactly how many players are in the West vs in other parts/regions of the country (i.e., that the players west of the rockies comprise more or less than 1/7 or 2/7th of the US uwh population. 
         
         
        Last year's election resulted in the committee having people from 7 different areas.  There are 3 who are techincally "from the midwest", but none of these three live within 300 miles of each other.  So we get information from all parts of the country.
         
        Last year 6 of the 15 people running for the committee were from the bay area.  And, yes, this may caused some people from getting votes that they may gave gotten if others from the bay area weren't running (assuming people voted for candidates from their own club, rather than choosing the best qualified candidates).  But would the committee have been better for hockey if there were 3 people from the bay area on it?  And as the person from the west who has "no current active connection with the clubs", would I do a better job on the committee if I went to more Club Puck or SF practices?

        Sparky: In my opinion, the best people that are qualified for the job should be on the board as a whole, but not entirely regardless of region. This does include an entire board knowledge of as many clubs and players as possible. Personally, I think the current board member hailing from the west is one of the best qualified individuals, even if unknown by his 'constituents' . 
         
        Everyone on the committee represents all players in US Hockey, not just the players in their own club.  There are people of different experience levels, people with different focuses (e.g., instructional, Worlds teams, rec level play, junior play) and from different regions.  To me the differences that are most important are the differences in experience and focus (this one is my opinion).  The only thing I've seen related to committee members being from different regions is that it makes having a conference call harder to schedule. :-)
         
        Sparky: Fully agreed
         
        There are also regional development directors, whose focus *is* specific to their region, rather than to US hockey as a whole.  This is a position where your location matters, because much of what is done is location specific. 

        Sparky: Somewhat agreed.  Although development directors are regional, there is no voting power, no allocation of funds, no consequences to their actions or decisions. Development directors are almost only facilitators.  
         
        In saying all this, I'm not trying to discourage Jose from running.  I think he should run if he's interested and he believes he can help US Hockey, as should anyone.  I don't think he should run with the goal of specifically getting something for SF Hockey (I don't quite know what there is to get). 
         
        I'm guess I'm just concerned about the idea of people voting as a bloc, as if there's something that the club will get if a member of their club is elected.  I'm also a bit disappointed that people from SF Hockey feel that their views weren't represented on the governing committee.  I don't recall emails being received by any of the committee members from SF Hockey players with requests that were ignored.

        Sparky: We all know that one of the hardest things to do is to get hockey players to make their views known.  Everyone want to play hockey and have it their way, but only a few will state their opinions or disapproval in an official manner (if there was an official manner). The most prolific manner in which the average hockey player will let 'management' know what's on their mind is to talk randomly over a beer, although if coerced, I can see them stating more.  How about an annual survey to try to get people to speak up? Or maybe we just take it that people are happy until they squeal, then grease that wheel if needed.
         
        Sean
         
        --Terry
         
        I'm keeping my personal opinion out of this one and am just trying to act as a clarifying agent... 

        Is trying to get one person on the board from a club or region considered "as many as possible"?

        The basic thought (correct me if I'm wrong Tom) is that the club wants to have a representative number of votes on the board.  
        the last vote ended with one person on the board representative for all lands, clubs, and players west of the Rockies. And that person really has no current active connection with the clubs. I think that was seen as not being truly representative for the numbers of players so that west coast interests will be viewed.

        Sparky


        On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 10:49 AM, Uncle Terry <uncleterry@usa. net> wrote:
        Tom,
         
        I'm a bit confused by the objective here.  You talk about "splitting our vote" and such.  Is there some reason that everyone from a club is supposed to be voting for the same person?  Isn't the objective to get the best governing committee that we can?  Not to try to stack it with as many people from our club as possible.
         
        --Terry
        BTW José Espinosa is already nominated and I expect SF players will vote for him. He is very involved with the kids practice, is reliable help for our adult tournaments ("hey can you do the food?" and it is there with receipts) and is always one of the first people to take care of business. Reliable + good ideas + easy to work with... but not well know outside SF.

        Are there many other people from the area on the ballot this year? It felt like we split our vote too many ways last year.

        I had a late change in plans and will be at nationals. See you there.



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        Visit our website at http://sfuwh. org/
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        To post to this group, send email to sfuwh@googlegroups. com
        To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sfuwh-unsubscribe@ googlegroups. com
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        -- 
        ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ----
        Visit our website at http://sfuwh. org/
        ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ----
        To post to this group, send email to sfuwh@googlegroups. com
        To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sfuwh-unsubscribe@ googlegroups. com
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      • José H. Espinosa
        Hey Chris, The under-representation feeling is due the fact that there are just one member for all the clubs on the West Coast. Jose
        Message 3 of 14 , Jun 29, 2010
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          Hey Chris,

          The under-representation feeling is due the fact that there are just
          one member for all the clubs on the West Coast.

          Jose

          On Jun 28, 2010, at 5:47 PM, Chris McDowell wrote:

          >
          >
          > All, Jose...
          >
          > Can you share some examples of the general feeling of the West
          > Coast being under-represented? Maybe I'm not paying attention, but
          > I haven't felt that way. Please do share as we value your opinion...
          >
          > --C. Clavin
          >
          >
          >
          > From: José H. Espinosa <jhespinosa@...>
          > To: Uncle Terry <uncleterry@...>
          > Cc: Sean Avent <seanavent@...>; San Francisco Underwater
          > Hockey google group <sfuwh@...>; clubpuck@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Mon, June 28, 2010 10:00:33 AM
          > Subject: Re: [sfuwh] Re: [clubpuck] Fwd: Important Announcement
          >
          >
          > Hey all,
          >
          >
          > I have talk about this with other San Francisco hockey players and
          > we have the general felling that the west coast is underrepresented
          > on the Governing Committee. It is not my intention to stack the
          > Governing Committee with people of just one region, and I would
          > definitely not be running if there were another person from the
          > west coast on the GC.
          >
          > I do believe that having geographical diversity on the Governing
          > Committee is crucial for achieving it's goals. Each of the region
          > and clubs have something valuable to contribute to hockey. For
          > example, San Francisco has a Kid's hockey practice that I will like
          > to see replicated in other parts of the country.
          >
          > Jose
          >
          > On Jun 27, 2010, at 3:01 PM, Uncle Terry wrote:
          >
          >> Sean,
          >>
          >> Whether we agree or disagree on specific points, this has been a
          >> good discussion. One small inaccuracy on your part is that last
          >> year voters were asked not to vote for more than *2* people from a
          >> given region. But you are correct that the western region
          >> encompasses people from the 8 clubs mentioned (plus Bellingham &
          >> Chico and any other clubs in the west), and relative proportions
          >> may be off, especially since only one person was elected from this
          >> region. And some may consider it more desirable than others that
          >> more representatives come from their region. Each is entitled to
          >> his own opinion. And when we first created the bylaws & governing
          >> committee, we knew it was a start; an imperfect one, but one we
          >> could grow from.
          >>
          >> I didn't mean to sound discouraging about voting. Even if I think
          >> voting as a bloc is not ideal, at least people will be voting, and
          >> the will of the people should prevail.
          >>
          >> I will say that communcations from the governing committee have
          >> not been perfect, and for that I apologize. It's something we're
          >> actively working on (anyone interested in volunteering to help
          >> with the website?). You suggestion of a survey is a very good
          >> one, and something I'll discuss with the committee right away- we
          >> may even be able to combine it with the upcoming elections.
          >> Perhaps even a quarterly survey is a good idea. We do want to
          >> hear from people, because no matter what clubs the committee
          >> members come from, we serve all.
          >>
          >> --Terry
          >> I'll try to answer with quick responses, this time inserting my
          >> opinions:
          >>
          >> On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 3:32 PM, Uncle Terry <uncleterry@usa. net>
          >> wrote:
          >> Sean,
          >>
          >> I appreciate your keeping personal opinion out of it, and I shall
          >> try to do the same.
          >>
          >> What is the purpose of having "a representative number of votes on
          >> the board". The only way that a club could have a
          >> "representative" number of votes on the committee would be if that
          >> club had exactly 1/7 of the players in the country. And what does
          >> it mean for a club
          >> to "have votes"? This isn't Congress, where the elected
          >> representative spend their time sending pork to their own
          >> districts. I can't think of a single decision made the the
          >> Governing Committee that could be interpreted as favoring one club
          >> over another.
          >>
          >> Sparky: I think the club wanted a more representative ratio. I
          >> think they feel that the number of players and clubs on the West
          >> coast are currently under-represented - not just the SF club. I'm
          >> glad to hear that the board is not favoring clubs (and I don't
          >> think at this stage in Hockey that it's very possible). Part of
          >> that feeling I think is because most of the local players have no
          >> idea who the other people are. I also think that even though the
          >> board is doing a great job and representing all uwh players well,
          >> the board members, even those who come from a players own region.
          >> are greatly unknown to SF players.
          >>
          >> The reason that geographical diversification was emphasized last
          >> time was to minimize the likelihood that no part of the country
          >> would feel left out, because no one knew of their teams or playing
          >> situations, etc. For instance, if no one was on the committee
          >> from the midwest, then the committee might not be well informed of
          >> how things are done at the various midwestern tournaments, or who
          >> the key people were from various teams, etc. Club Puck & San
          >> Francisco could vote for 7 people from the bay area, and no other
          >> region would be heard from. The USOA board at one time wanted us
          >> to have specific regional members (i.e., exactly one committee
          >> member from each region), but most people thought that wasn't a
          >> good way to do it.
          >>
          >> Sparky: I may be wrong but I think the limit was that was
          >> understood was that we could vote for only one person from SF,
          >> Club Puck, Sacramento, San Diego, LA, Santa Rosa, Oregon and
          >> Seattle. And the club, in general, thought that one person on the
          >> board under represented that entire population. Personally, I
          >> can't be sure, because I'm not sure exactly how many players are
          >> in the West vs in other parts/regions of the country (i.e., that
          >> the players west of the rockies comprise more or less than 1/7 or
          >> 2/7th of the US uwh population.
          >>
          >>
          >> Last year's election resulted in the committee having people from
          >> 7 different areas. There are 3 who are techincally "from the
          >> midwest", but none of these three live within 300 miles of each
          >> other. So we get information from all parts of the country.
          >>
          >> Last year 6 of the 15 people running for the committee were from
          >> the bay area. And, yes, this may caused some people from getting
          >> votes that they may gave gotten if others from the bay area
          >> weren't running (assuming people voted for candidates from their
          >> own club, rather than choosing the best qualified candidates).
          >> But would the committee have been better for hockey if there were
          >> 3 people from the bay area on it? And as the person from the west
          >> who has "no current active connection with the clubs", would I do
          >> a better job on the committee if I went to more Club Puck or SF
          >> practices?
          >>
          >> Sparky: In my opinion, the best people that are qualified for the
          >> job should be on the board as a whole, but not entirely regardless
          >> of region. This does include an entire board knowledge of as many
          >> clubs and players as possible. Personally, I think the current
          >> board member hailing from the west is one of the best qualified
          >> individuals, even if unknown by his 'constituents' .
          >>
          >> Everyone on the committee represents all players in US Hockey, not
          >> just the players in their own club. There are people of different
          >> experience levels, people with different focuses (e.g.,
          >> instructional, Worlds teams, rec level play, junior play) and from
          >> different regions. To me the differences that are most important
          >> are the differences in experience and focus (this one is my
          >> opinion). The only thing I've seen related to committee members
          >> being from different regions is that it makes having a conference
          >> call harder to schedule. :-)
          >>
          >> Sparky: Fully agreed
          >>
          >> There are also regional development directors, whose focus *is*
          >> specific to their region, rather than to US hockey as a whole.
          >> This is a position where your location matters, because much of
          >> what is done is location specific.
          >>
          >> Sparky: Somewhat agreed. Although development directors are
          >> regional, there is no voting power, no allocation of funds, no
          >> consequences to their actions or decisions. Development directors
          >> are almost only facilitators.
          >>
          >> In saying all this, I'm not trying to discourage Jose from
          >> running. I think he should run if he's interested and he believes
          >> he can help US Hockey, as should anyone. I don't think he should
          >> run with the goal of specifically getting something for SF Hockey
          >> (I don't quite know what there is to get).
          >>
          >> I'm guess I'm just concerned about the idea of people voting as a
          >> bloc, as if there's something that the club will get if a member
          >> of their club is elected. I'm also a bit disappointed that people
          >> from SF Hockey feel that their views weren't represented on the
          >> governing committee. I don't recall emails being received by any
          >> of the committee members from SF Hockey players with requests that
          >> were ignored.
          >>
          >> Sparky: We all know that one of the hardest things to do is to get
          >> hockey players to make their views known. Everyone want to play
          >> hockey and have it their way, but only a few will state their
          >> opinions or disapproval in an official manner (if there was an
          >> official manner). The most prolific manner in which the average
          >> hockey player will let 'management' know what's on their mind is
          >> to talk randomly over a beer, although if coerced, I can see them
          >> stating more. How about an annual survey to try to get people to
          >> speak up? Or maybe we just take it that people are happy until
          >> they squeal, then grease that wheel if needed.
          >>
          >> Sean
          >>
          >> --Terry
          >>
          >> I'm keeping my personal opinion out of this one and am just trying
          >> to act as a clarifying agent...
          >>
          >> Is trying to get one person on the board from a club or region
          >> considered "as many as possible"?
          >>
          >> The basic thought (correct me if I'm wrong Tom) is that the club
          >> wants to have a representative number of votes on the board.
          >> the last vote ended with one person on the board representative
          >> for all lands, clubs, and players west of the Rockies. And that
          >> person really has no current active connection with the clubs. I
          >> think that was seen as not being truly representative for the
          >> numbers of players so that west coast interests will be viewed.
          >>
          >> Sparky
          >>
          >>
          >> On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 10:49 AM, Uncle Terry <uncleterry@usa.
          >> net> wrote:
          >> Tom,
          >>
          >> I'm a bit confused by the objective here. You talk about
          >> "splitting our vote" and such. Is there some reason that everyone
          >> from a club is supposed to be voting for the same person? Isn't
          >> the objective to get the best governing committee that we can?
          >> Not to try to stack it with as many people from our club as possible.
          >>
          >> --Terry
          >> BTW José Espinosa is already nominated and I expect SF players
          >> will vote for him. He is very involved with the kids practice, is
          >> reliable help for our adult tournaments ("hey can you do the
          >> food?" and it is there with receipts) and is always one of the
          >> first people to take care of business. Reliable + good ideas +
          >> easy to work with... but not well know outside SF.
          >>
          >> Are there many other people from the area on the ballot this year?
          >> It felt like we split our vote too many ways last year.
          >>
          >> I had a late change in plans and will be at nationals. See you there.
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> --
          >> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
          >> --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ----
          >> Visit our website at http://sfuwh. org/
          >> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
          >> --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ----
          >> To post to this group, send email to sfuwh@googlegroups. com
          >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sfuwh-unsubscribe@
          >> googlegroups. com
          >> For more options, visit this group at http://groups. google.com/
          >> group/sfuwh
          >> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
          >> --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ----
          >>
          >>
          >> --
          >> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
          >> --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ----
          >> Visit our website at http://sfuwh. org/
          >> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
          >> --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ----
          >> To post to this group, send email to sfuwh@googlegroups. com
          >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sfuwh-unsubscribe@
          >> googlegroups. com
          >> For more options, visit this group at http://groups. google.com/
          >> group/sfuwh
          >> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
          >> --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ----
          >>
          >>
          >> --
          >> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
          >> --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ----
          >> Visit our website at http://sfuwh. org/
          >> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
          >> --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ----
          >> To post to this group, send email to sfuwh@googlegroups. com
          >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sfuwh-unsubscribe@
          >> googlegroups. com
          >> For more options, visit this group at http://groups. google.com/
          >> group/sfuwh
          >> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
          >> --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ----
          >
          >
          >
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        • Gregory Appling
          Why would the west coast need more representation? What is the board doing wrong that puts the west coast at a disadvantage to others based on the make up of
          Message 4 of 14 , Jun 29, 2010
          • 0 Attachment
            Why would the west coast need more representation? What is the board doing wrong that puts the west coast at a disadvantage to others based on the make up of the board?

            Funny you should say that since for years Underwater Hockey in America was mostly run by the the west coast payers and I never heard anyone from other parts of the country say they were "under represented".

            If you feel that the board isn't doing something you should take that to the board. The idea that we should stack the board with west coast players to me is not very smart and could lead to divisiveness in the underwater hockey community.

            I don't want to make light of your view that the west coast is under represented but if you have something please post it up so people can look at it and discuss.

            gregory



            Gregory Appling
            147 Springdale Way
            Emerald Hills, CA 94062
            home: 650-260-2093
            cell: 415-637-0784

            --- On Tue, 6/29/10, José H. Espinosa <jhespinosa@...> wrote:

            From: José H. Espinosa <jhespinosa@...>
            Subject: Re: [clubpuck] RE: West Coast Under-Represented...
            To: clubpuck@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Tuesday, June 29, 2010, 1:40 AM

            Hey Chris,

            The under-representation feeling is due the fact that there are just 
            one member for all the clubs on the West Coast.

            Jose

            On Jun 28, 2010, at 5:47 PM, Chris McDowell wrote:

            >
            >
            > All, Jose...
            >
            > Can you share some examples of the general feeling of the West 
            > Coast being under-represented?  Maybe I'm not paying attention, but 
            > I haven't felt that way.  Please do share as we value your opinion...
            >
            > --C. Clavin
            >
            >
            >
            > From: José H. Espinosa <jhespinosa@...>
            > To: Uncle Terry <uncleterry@...>
            > Cc: Sean Avent <seanavent@...>; San Francisco Underwater 
            > Hockey google group <sfuwh@...>; clubpuck@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Mon, June 28, 2010 10:00:33 AM
            > Subject: Re: [sfuwh] Re: [clubpuck] Fwd: Important Announcement
            >
            >
            > Hey all,
            >
            >
            > I have talk about this with other San Francisco hockey players and 
            > we have the general felling that the west coast is underrepresented 
            > on the Governing Committee.  It is not my intention to stack the 
            > Governing Committee with people of just one region, and I would 
            > definitely not be running if there were another person from the 
            > west coast on the GC.
            >
            > I do believe that having geographical diversity on the Governing 
            > Committee is crucial for achieving it's goals.  Each of the region 
            > and clubs have something valuable to contribute to hockey.  For 
            > example, San Francisco has a Kid's hockey practice that I will like 
            > to see replicated in other parts of the country.
            >
            > Jose
            >
            > On Jun 27, 2010, at 3:01 PM, Uncle Terry wrote:
            >
            >> Sean,
            >>
            >> Whether we agree or disagree on specific points, this has been a 
            >> good discussion.  One small inaccuracy on your part is that last 
            >> year voters were asked not to vote for more than *2* people from a 
            >> given region.  But you are correct that the western region 
            >> encompasses people from the 8 clubs mentioned (plus Bellingham & 
            >> Chico and any other clubs in the west), and relative proportions 
            >> may be off, especially since only one person was elected from this 
            >> region.  And some may consider it more desirable than others that 
            >> more representatives come from their region.  Each is entitled to 
            >> his own opinion.  And when we first created the bylaws & governing 
            >> committee, we knew it was a start; an imperfect one, but one we 
            >> could grow from.
            >>
            >> I didn't mean to sound discouraging about voting.  Even if I think 
            >> voting as a bloc is not ideal, at least people will be voting, and 
            >> the will of the people should prevail.
            >>
            >> I will say that communcations from the governing committee have 
            >> not been perfect, and for that I apologize.  It's something we're 
            >> actively working on (anyone interested in volunteering to help 
            >> with the website?).  You suggestion of a survey is a very good 
            >> one, and something I'll discuss with the committee right away-  we 
            >> may even be able to combine it with the upcoming elections.   
            >> Perhaps even a quarterly survey is a good idea.  We do want to 
            >> hear from people, because no matter what clubs the committee 
            >> members come from, we serve all.
            >>
            >> --Terry
            >> I'll try to answer with quick responses, this time inserting my 
            >> opinions:
            >>
            >> On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 3:32 PM, Uncle Terry <uncleterry@usa. net> 
            >> wrote:
            >> Sean,
            >>
            >> I appreciate your keeping personal opinion out of it, and I shall 
            >> try to do the same.
            >>
            >> What is the purpose of having "a representative number of votes on 
            >> the board".  The only way that a club could have a 
            >> "representative" number of votes on the committee would be if that 
            >> club had exactly 1/7 of the players in the country.  And what does 
            >> it mean for a club
            >> to "have votes"?  This isn't Congress, where the elected 
            >> representative spend their time sending pork to their own 
            >> districts.  I can't think of a single decision made the the 
            >> Governing Committee that could be interpreted as favoring one club 
            >> over another.
            >>
            >> Sparky: I think the club wanted a more representative ratio.  I 
            >> think they feel that the number of players and clubs on the West 
            >> coast are currently under-represented - not just the SF club. I'm 
            >> glad to hear that the board is not favoring clubs (and I don't 
            >> think at this stage in Hockey that it's very possible). Part of 
            >> that feeling I think is because most of the local players have no 
            >> idea who the other people are. I also think that even though the 
            >> board is doing a great job and representing all uwh players well, 
            >> the board members, even those who come from a players own region. 
            >> are greatly unknown to SF players.
            >>
            >> The reason that geographical diversification was emphasized last 
            >> time was to minimize the likelihood that no part of the country 
            >> would feel left out, because no one knew of their teams or playing 
            >> situations, etc.  For instance, if no one was on the committee 
            >> from the midwest, then the committee might not be well informed of 
            >> how things are done at the various midwestern tournaments, or who 
            >> the key people were from various teams, etc.  Club Puck & San 
            >> Francisco could vote for 7 people from the bay area, and no other 
            >> region would be heard from.  The USOA board at one time wanted us 
            >> to have specific regional members (i.e., exactly one committee 
            >> member from each region), but most people thought that wasn't a 
            >> good way to do it.
            >>
            >> Sparky: I may be wrong but I think the limit was that was 
            >> understood was that we could vote for only one person from SF, 
            >> Club Puck, Sacramento, San Diego, LA, Santa Rosa, Oregon and 
            >> Seattle. And the club, in general, thought that one person on the 
            >> board under represented that entire population. Personally, I 
            >> can't be sure, because I'm not sure exactly how many players are 
            >> in the West vs in other parts/regions of the country (i.e., that 
            >> the players west of the rockies comprise more or less than 1/7 or 
            >> 2/7th of the US uwh population.
            >>
            >>
            >> Last year's election resulted in the committee having people from 
            >> 7 different areas.  There are 3 who are techincally "from the 
            >> midwest", but none of these three live within 300 miles of each 
            >> other.  So we get information from all parts of the country.
            >>
            >> Last year 6 of the 15 people running for the committee were from 
            >> the bay area.  And, yes, this may caused some people from getting 
            >> votes that they may gave gotten if others from the bay area 
            >> weren't running (assuming people voted for candidates from their 
            >> own club, rather than choosing the best qualified candidates).   
            >> But would the committee have been better for hockey if there were 
            >> 3 people from the bay area on it?  And as the person from the west 
            >> who has "no current active connection with the clubs", would I do 
            >> a better job on the committee if I went to more Club Puck or SF 
            >> practices?
            >>
            >> Sparky: In my opinion, the best people that are qualified for the 
            >> job should be on the board as a whole, but not entirely regardless 
            >> of region. This does include an entire board knowledge of as many 
            >> clubs and players as possible. Personally, I think the current 
            >> board member hailing from the west is one of the best qualified 
            >> individuals, even if unknown by his 'constituents' .
            >>
            >> Everyone on the committee represents all players in US Hockey, not 
            >> just the players in their own club.  There are people of different 
            >> experience levels, people with different focuses (e.g., 
            >> instructional, Worlds teams, rec level play, junior play) and from 
            >> different regions.  To me the differences that are most important 
            >> are the differences in experience and focus (this one is my 
            >> opinion).  The only thing I've seen related to committee members 
            >> being from different regions is that it makes having a conference 
            >> call harder to schedule. :-)
            >>
            >> Sparky: Fully agreed
            >>
            >> There are also regional development directors, whose focus *is* 
            >> specific to their region, rather than to US hockey as a whole.   
            >> This is a position where your location matters, because much of 
            >> what is done is location specific.
            >>
            >> Sparky: Somewhat agreed.  Although development directors are 
            >> regional, there is no voting power, no allocation of funds, no 
            >> consequences to their actions or decisions. Development directors 
            >> are almost only facilitators.
            >>
            >> In saying all this, I'm not trying to discourage Jose from 
            >> running.  I think he should run if he's interested and he believes 
            >> he can help US Hockey, as should anyone.  I don't think he should 
            >> run with the goal of specifically getting something for SF Hockey 
            >> (I don't quite know what there is to get).
            >>
            >> I'm guess I'm just concerned about the idea of people voting as a 
            >> bloc, as if there's something that the club will get if a member 
            >> of their club is elected.  I'm also a bit disappointed that people 
            >> from SF Hockey feel that their views weren't represented on the 
            >> governing committee.  I don't recall emails being received by any 
            >> of the committee members from SF Hockey players with requests that 
            >> were ignored.
            >>
            >> Sparky: We all know that one of the hardest things to do is to get 
            >> hockey players to make their views known.  Everyone want to play 
            >> hockey and have it their way, but only a few will state their 
            >> opinions or disapproval in an official manner (if there was an 
            >> official manner). The most prolific manner in which the average 
            >> hockey player will let 'management' know what's on their mind is 
            >> to talk randomly over a beer, although if coerced, I can see them 
            >> stating more.  How about an annual survey to try to get people to 
            >> speak up? Or maybe we just take it that people are happy until 
            >> they squeal, then grease that wheel if needed.
            >>
            >> Sean
            >>
            >> --Terry
            >>
            >> I'm keeping my personal opinion out of this one and am just trying 
            >> to act as a clarifying agent...
            >>
            >> Is trying to get one person on the board from a club or region 
            >> considered "as many as possible"?
            >>
            >> The basic thought (correct me if I'm wrong Tom) is that the club 
            >> wants to have a representative number of votes on the board.
            >> the last vote ended with one person on the board representative 
            >> for all lands, clubs, and players west of the Rockies. And that 
            >> person really has no current active connection with the clubs. I 
            >> think that was seen as not being truly representative for the 
            >> numbers of players so that west coast interests will be viewed.
            >>
            >> Sparky
            >>
            >>
            >> On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 10:49 AM, Uncle Terry <uncleterry@usa. 
            >> net> wrote:
            >> Tom,
            >>
            >> I'm a bit confused by the objective here.  You talk about 
            >> "splitting our vote" and such.  Is there some reason that everyone 
            >> from a club is supposed to be voting for the same person?  Isn't 
            >> the objective to get the best governing committee that we can?   
            >> Not to try to stack it with as many people from our club as possible.
            >>
            >> --Terry
            >> BTW José Espinosa is already nominated and I expect SF players 
            >> will vote for him. He is very involved with the kids practice, is 
            >> reliable help for our adult tournaments ("hey can you do the 
            >> food?" and it is there with receipts) and is always one of the 
            >> first people to take care of business. Reliable + good ideas + 
            >> easy to work with... but not well know outside SF.
            >>
            >> Are there many other people from the area on the ballot this year? 
            >> It felt like we split our vote too many ways last year.
            >>
            >> I had a late change in plans and will be at nationals. See you there.
            >>
            >>
            >>
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            >
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          • José H. Espinosa
            Greg, I compleatly agree that stacking the board with players of just one region will be bad for the Hockey community, and I think this is the general
            Message 5 of 14 , Jun 29, 2010
            • 0 Attachment
              Greg,

              I compleatly agree that stacking the board with players of just one region will be bad for the Hockey community, and I think this is the general agreement among all the players.  Some of us, including me, think that just one member for all the west coast is not the right geographically diversity.  This is the main reason why I decide to run for member of the board.

              None of these comments shall be interpreted as a criticism of the charter or the work of the board -- I have the highest appreciation for the all the people that invest their own free time to make hockey better to all of us.

              Jose

              On Jun 29, 2010, at 7:03 AM, Gregory Appling wrote:

               

              Why would the west coast need more representation? What is the board doing wrong that puts the west coast at a disadvantage to others based on the make up of the board?

              Funny you should say that since for years Underwater Hockey in America was mostly run by the the west coast payers and I never heard anyone from other parts of the country say they were "under represented" .

              If you feel that the board isn't doing something you should take that to the board. The idea that we should stack the board with west coast players to me is not very smart and could lead to divisiveness in the underwater hockey community.

              I don't want to make light of your view that the west coast is under represented but if you have something please post it up so people can look at it and discuss.

              gregory



              Gregory Appling
              147 Springdale Way
              Emerald Hills, CA 94062
              home: 650-260-2093
              cell: 415-637-0784

              --- On Tue, 6/29/10, José H. Espinosa <jhespinosa@gmail. com> wrote:

              From: José H. Espinosa <jhespinosa@gmail. com>
              Subject: Re: [clubpuck] RE: West Coast Under-Represented. ..
              To: clubpuck@yahoogroup s.com
              Date: Tuesday, June 29, 2010, 1:40 AM

              Hey Chris,

              The under-representatio n feeling is due the fact that there are just 
              one member for all the clubs on the West Coast.

              Jose

              On Jun 28, 2010, at 5:47 PM, Chris McDowell wrote:

              >
              >
              > All, Jose...
              >
              > Can you share some examples of the general feeling of the West 
              > Coast being under-represented?  Maybe I'm not paying attention, but 
              > I haven't felt that way.  Please do share as we value your opinion...
              >
              > --C. Clavin
              >
              >
              >
              > From: José H. Espinosa <jhespinosa@gmail. com>
              > To: Uncle Terry <uncleterry@usa. net>
              > Cc: Sean Avent <seanavent@gmail. com>; San Francisco Underwater 
              > Hockey google group <sfuwh@googlegroups. com>; clubpuck@yahoogroup s.com
              > Sent: Mon, June 28, 2010 10:00:33 AM
              > Subject: Re: [sfuwh] Re: [clubpuck] Fwd: Important Announcement
              >
              >
              > Hey all,
              >
              >
              > I have talk about this with other San Francisco hockey players and 
              > we have the general felling that the west coast is underrepresented 
              > on the Governing Committee.  It is not my intention to stack the 
              > Governing Committee with people of just one region, and I would 
              > definitely not be running if there were another person from the 
              > west coast on the GC.
              >
              > I do believe that having geographical diversity on the Governing 
              > Committee is crucial for achieving it's goals.  Each of the region 
              > and clubs have something valuable to contribute to hockey.  For 
              > example, San Francisco has a Kid's hockey practice that I will like 
              > to see replicated in other parts of the country.
              >
              > Jose
              >
              > On Jun 27, 2010, at 3:01 PM, Uncle Terry wrote:
              >
              >> Sean,
              >>
              >> Whether we agree or disagree on specific points, this has been a 
              >> good discussion.  One small inaccuracy on your part is that last 
              >> year voters were asked not to vote for more than *2* people from a 
              >> given region.  But you are correct that the western region 
              >> encompasses people from the 8 clubs mentioned (plus Bellingham & 
              >> Chico and any other clubs in the west), and relative proportions 
              >> may be off, especially since only one person was elected from this 
              >> region.  And some may consider it more desirable than others that 
              >> more representatives come from their region.  Each is entitled to 
              >> his own opinion.  And when we first created the bylaws & governing 
              >> committee, we knew it was a start; an imperfect one, but one we 
              >> could grow from.
              >>
              >> I didn't mean to sound discouraging about voting.  Even if I think 
              >> voting as a bloc is not ideal, at least people will be voting, and 
              >> the will of the people should prevail.
              >>
              >> I will say that communcations from the governing committee have 
              >> not been perfect, and for that I apologize.  It's something we're 
              >> actively working on (anyone interested in volunteering to help 
              >> with the website?).  You suggestion of a survey is a very good 
              >> one, and something I'll discuss with the committee right away-  we 
              >> may even be able to combine it with the upcoming elections.   
              >> Perhaps even a quarterly survey is a good idea.  We do want to 
              >> hear from people, because no matter what clubs the committee 
              >> members come from, we serve all.
              >>
              >> --Terry
              >> I'll try to answer with quick responses, this time inserting my 
              >> opinions:
              >>
              >> On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 3:32 PM, Uncle Terry <uncleterry@usa. net> 
              >> wrote:
              >> Sean,
              >>
              >> I appreciate your keeping personal opinion out of it, and I shall 
              >> try to do the same.
              >>
              >> What is the purpose of having "a representative number of votes on 
              >> the board".  The only way that a club could have a 
              >> "representative" number of votes on the committee would be if that 
              >> club had exactly 1/7 of the players in the country.  And what does 
              >> it mean for a club
              >> to "have votes"?  This isn't Congress, where the elected 
              >> representative spend their time sending pork to their own 
              >> districts.  I can't think of a single decision made the the 
              >> Governing Committee that could be interpreted as favoring one club 
              >> over another.
              >>
              >> Sparky: I think the club wanted a more representative ratio.  I 
              >> think they feel that the number of players and clubs on the West 
              >> coast are currently under-represented - not just the SF club. I'm 
              >> glad to hear that the board is not favoring clubs (and I don't 
              >> think at this stage in Hockey that it's very possible). Part of 
              >> that feeling I think is because most of the local players have no 
              >> idea who the other people are. I also think that even though the 
              >> board is doing a great job and representing all uwh players well, 
              >> the board members, even those who come from a players own region. 
              >> are greatly unknown to SF players.
              >>
              >> The reason that geographical diversification was emphasized last 
              >> time was to minimize the likelihood that no part of the country 
              >> would feel left out, because no one knew of their teams or playing 
              >> situations, etc.  For instance, if no one was on the committee 
              >> from the midwest, then the committee might not be well informed of 
              >> how things are done at the various midwestern tournaments, or who 
              >> the key people were from various teams, etc.  Club Puck & San 
              >> Francisco could vote for 7 people from the bay area, and no other 
              >> region would be heard from.  The USOA board at one time wanted us 
              >> to have specific regional members (i.e., exactly one committee 
              >> member from each region), but most people thought that wasn't a 
              >> good way to do it.
              >>
              >> Sparky: I may be wrong but I think the limit was that was 
              >> understood was that we could vote for only one person from SF, 
              >> Club Puck, Sacramento, San Diego, LA, Santa Rosa, Oregon and 
              >> Seattle. And the club, in general, thought that one person on the 
              >> board under represented that entire population. Personally, I 
              >> can't be sure, because I'm not sure exactly how many players are 
              >> in the West vs in other parts/regions of the country (i.e., that 
              >> the players west of the rockies comprise more or less than 1/7 or 
              >> 2/7th of the US uwh population.
              >>
              >>
              >> Last year's election resulted in the committee having people from 
              >> 7 different areas.  There are 3 who are techincally "from the 
              >> midwest", but none of these three live within 300 miles of each 
              >> other.  So we get information from all parts of the country.
              >>
              >> Last year 6 of the 15 people running for the committee were from 
              >> the bay area.  And, yes, this may caused some people from getting 
              >> votes that they may gave gotten if others from the bay area 
              >> weren't running (assuming people voted for candidates from their 
              >> own club, rather than choosing the best qualified candidates).   
              >> But would the committee have been better for hockey if there were 
              >> 3 people from the bay area on it?  And as the person from the west 
              >> who has "no current active connection with the clubs", would I do 
              >> a better job on the committee if I went to more Club Puck or SF 
              >> practices?
              >>
              >> Sparky: In my opinion, the best people that are qualified for the 
              >> job should be on the board as a whole, but not entirely regardless 
              >> of region. This does include an entire board knowledge of as many 
              >> clubs and players as possible. Personally, I think the current 
              >> board member hailing from the west is one of the best qualified 
              >> individuals, even if unknown by his 'constituents' .
              >>
              >> Everyone on the committee represents all players in US Hockey, not 
              >> just the players in their own club.  There are people of different 
              >> experience levels, people with different focuses (e.g., 
              >> instructional, Worlds teams, rec level play, junior play) and from 
              >> different regions.  To me the differences that are most important 
              >> are the differences in experience and focus (this one is my 
              >> opinion).  The only thing I've seen related to committee members 
              >> being from different regions is that it makes having a conference 
              >> call harder to schedule. :-)
              >>
              >> Sparky: Fully agreed
              >>
              >> There are also regional development directors, whose focus *is* 
              >> specific to their region, rather than to US hockey as a whole.   
              >> This is a position where your location matters, because much of 
              >> what is done is location specific.
              >>
              >> Sparky: Somewhat agreed.  Although development directors are 
              >> regional, there is no voting power, no allocation of funds, no 
              >> consequences to their actions or decisions. Development directors 
              >> are almost only facilitators.
              >>
              >> In saying all this, I'm not trying to discourage Jose from 
              >> running.  I think he should run if he's interested and he believes 
              >> he can help US Hockey, as should anyone.  I don't think he should 
              >> run with the goal of specifically getting something for SF Hockey 
              >> (I don't quite know what there is to get).
              >>
              >> I'm guess I'm just concerned about the idea of people voting as a 
              >> bloc, as if there's something that the club will get if a member 
              >> of their club is elected.  I'm also a bit disappointed that people 
              >> from SF Hockey feel that their views weren't represented on the 
              >> governing committee.  I don't recall emails being received by any 
              >> of the committee members from SF Hockey players with requests that 
              >> were ignored.
              >>
              >> Sparky: We all know that one of the hardest things to do is to get 
              >> hockey players to make their views known.  Everyone want to play 
              >> hockey and have it their way, but only a few will state their 
              >> opinions or disapproval in an official manner (if there was an 
              >> official manner). The most prolific manner in which the average 
              >> hockey player will let 'management' know what's on their mind is 
              >> to talk randomly over a beer, although if coerced, I can see them 
              >> stating more.  How about an annual survey to try to get people to 
              >> speak up? Or maybe we just take it that people are happy until 
              >> they squeal, then grease that wheel if needed.
              >>
              >> Sean
              >>
              >> --Terry
              >>
              >> I'm keeping my personal opinion out of this one and am just trying 
              >> to act as a clarifying agent...
              >>
              >> Is trying to get one person on the board from a club or region 
              >> considered "as many as possible"?
              >>
              >> The basic thought (correct me if I'm wrong Tom) is that the club 
              >> wants to have a representative number of votes on the board.
              >> the last vote ended with one person on the board representative 
              >> for all lands, clubs, and players west of the Rockies. And that 
              >> person really has no current active connection with the clubs. I 
              >> think that was seen as not being truly representative for the 
              >> numbers of players so that west coast interests will be viewed.
              >>
              >> Sparky
              >>
              >>
              >> On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 10:49 AM, Uncle Terry <uncleterry@usa. 
              >> net> wrote:
              >> Tom,
              >>
              >> I'm a bit confused by the objective here.  You talk about 
              >> "splitting our vote" and such.  Is there some reason that everyone 
              >> from a club is supposed to be voting for the same person?  Isn't 
              >> the objective to get the best governing committee that we can?   
              >> Not to try to stack it with as many people from our club as possible.
              >>
              >> --Terry
              >> BTW José Espinosa is already nominated and I expect SF players 
              >> will vote for him. He is very involved with the kids practice, is 
              >> reliable help for our adult tournaments ("hey can you do the 
              >> food?" and it is there with receipts) and is always one of the 
              >> first people to take care of business. Reliable + good ideas + 
              >> easy to work with... but not well know outside SF.
              >>
              >> Are there many other people from the area on the ballot this year? 
              >> It felt like we split our vote too many ways last year.
              >>
              >> I had a late change in plans and will be at nationals. See you there.
              >>
              >>
              >>
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            • Terry Sutton
              Jose, That s the thinking that I have been objecting to. There is not just one member for all the clubs on the West Coast . There are 7 committee members
              Message 6 of 14 , Jun 29, 2010
              • 0 Attachment
                Jose,

                That's the thinking that I have been objecting to. There is not "just one
                member for all the clubs on the West Coast". There are 7 committee members
                for all the clubs on the West Coast.

                Here's an example of how where a person comes from is irrelevant. A couple
                months ago the governing committee appointed a Competitions Director, a
                position we've never officially had in the US. The CD (Jen Gall) is tasked
                with helping coordinate tournaments, assisting people with what they need to
                run tournaments, cajoling people to have tournaments, etc. She's just
                announced that this year's PCCs will be held in San Diego the first week of
                October. This is meaningful, because no one else had gotten this organized.
                PCCs is generally handled quite well by west coast teams, but the ball got
                dropped this year (or no one wanted to host it). And it's one of the most
                popular touraments around for players.

                But Jen, who started playing in Champaign, and now lives in DC, persisted
                and got the tournament scheduled. She did it because her position is to
                serve US Underwater Hockey, not just the club she comes from.

                --Terry

                ----- Original Message -----

                Hey Chris,

                The under-representation feeling is due the fact that there are just
                one member for all the clubs on the West Coast.

                Jose

                On Jun 28, 2010, at 5:47 PM, Chris McDowell wrote:

                >
                >
                > All, Jose...
                >
                > Can you share some examples of the general feeling of the West
                > Coast being under-represented? Maybe I'm not paying attention, but
                > I haven't felt that way. Please do share as we value your opinion...
                >
                > --C. Clavin
                >
                >
                >
                > From: José H. Espinosa <jhespinosa@...>
                > To: Uncle Terry <uncleterry@...>
                > Cc: Sean Avent <seanavent@...>; San Francisco Underwater
                > Hockey google group <sfuwh@...>; clubpuck@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Mon, June 28, 2010 10:00:33 AM
                > Subject: Re: [sfuwh] Re: [clubpuck] Fwd: Important Announcement
                >
                >
                > Hey all,
                >
                >
                > I have talk about this with other San Francisco hockey players and
                > we have the general felling that the west coast is underrepresented
                > on the Governing Committee. It is not my intention to stack the
                > Governing Committee with people of just one region, and I would
                > definitely not be running if there were another person from the
                > west coast on the GC.
                >
                > I do believe that having geographical diversity on the Governing
                > Committee is crucial for achieving it's goals. Each of the region
                > and clubs have something valuable to contribute to hockey. For
                > example, San Francisco has a Kid's hockey practice that I will like
                > to see replicated in other parts of the country.
                >
                > Jose
                >
                > On Jun 27, 2010, at 3:01 PM, Uncle Terry wrote:
                >
                >> Sean,
                >>
                >> Whether we agree or disagree on specific points, this has been a
                >> good discussion. One small inaccuracy on your part is that last
                >> year voters were asked not to vote for more than *2* people from a
                >> given region. But you are correct that the western region
                >> encompasses people from the 8 clubs mentioned (plus Bellingham &
                >> Chico and any other clubs in the west), and relative proportions
                >> may be off, especially since only one person was elected from this
                >> region. And some may consider it more desirable than others that
                >> more representatives come from their region. Each is entitled to
                >> his own opinion. And when we first created the bylaws & governing
                >> committee, we knew it was a start; an imperfect one, but one we
                >> could grow from.
                >>
                >> I didn't mean to sound discouraging about voting. Even if I think
                >> voting as a bloc is not ideal, at least people will be voting, and
                >> the will of the people should prevail.
                >>
                >> I will say that communcations from the governing committee have
                >> not been perfect, and for that I apologize. It's something we're
                >> actively working on (anyone interested in volunteering to help
                >> with the website?). You suggestion of a survey is a very good
                >> one, and something I'll discuss with the committee right away- we
                >> may even be able to combine it with the upcoming elections.
                >> Perhaps even a quarterly survey is a good idea. We do want to
                >> hear from people, because no matter what clubs the committee
                >> members come from, we serve all.
                >>
                >> --Terry
                >> I'll try to answer with quick responses, this time inserting my
                >> opinions:
                >>
                >> On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 3:32 PM, Uncle Terry <uncleterry@usa. net>
                >> wrote:
                >> Sean,
                >>
                >> I appreciate your keeping personal opinion out of it, and I shall
                >> try to do the same.
                >>
                >> What is the purpose of having "a representative number of votes on
                >> the board". The only way that a club could have a
                >> "representative" number of votes on the committee would be if that
                >> club had exactly 1/7 of the players in the country. And what does
                >> it mean for a club
                >> to "have votes"? This isn't Congress, where the elected
                >> representative spend their time sending pork to their own
                >> districts. I can't think of a single decision made the the
                >> Governing Committee that could be interpreted as favoring one club
                >> over another.
                >>
                >> Sparky: I think the club wanted a more representative ratio. I
                >> think they feel that the number of players and clubs on the West
                >> coast are currently under-represented - not just the SF club. I'm
                >> glad to hear that the board is not favoring clubs (and I don't
                >> think at this stage in Hockey that it's very possible). Part of
                >> that feeling I think is because most of the local players have no
                >> idea who the other people are. I also think that even though the
                >> board is doing a great job and representing all uwh players well,
                >> the board members, even those who come from a players own region.
                >> are greatly unknown to SF players.
                >>
                >> The reason that geographical diversification was emphasized last
                >> time was to minimize the likelihood that no part of the country
                >> would feel left out, because no one knew of their teams or playing
                >> situations, etc. For instance, if no one was on the committee
                >> from the midwest, then the committee might not be well informed of
                >> how things are done at the various midwestern tournaments, or who
                >> the key people were from various teams, etc. Club Puck & San
                >> Francisco could vote for 7 people from the bay area, and no other
                >> region would be heard from. The USOA board at one time wanted us
                >> to have specific regional members (i.e., exactly one committee
                >> member from each region), but most people thought that wasn't a
                >> good way to do it.
                >>
                >> Sparky: I may be wrong but I think the limit was that was
                >> understood was that we could vote for only one person from SF,
                >> Club Puck, Sacramento, San Diego, LA, Santa Rosa, Oregon and
                >> Seattle. And the club, in general, thought that one person on the
                >> board under represented that entire population. Personally, I
                >> can't be sure, because I'm not sure exactly how many players are
                >> in the West vs in other parts/regions of the country (i.e., that
                >> the players west of the rockies comprise more or less than 1/7 or
                >> 2/7th of the US uwh population.
                >>
                >>
                >> Last year's election resulted in the committee having people from
                >> 7 different areas. There are 3 who are techincally "from the
                >> midwest", but none of these three live within 300 miles of each
                >> other. So we get information from all parts of the country.
                >>
                >> Last year 6 of the 15 people running for the committee were from
                >> the bay area. And, yes, this may caused some people from getting
                >> votes that they may gave gotten if others from the bay area
                >> weren't running (assuming people voted for candidates from their
                >> own club, rather than choosing the best qualified candidates).
                >> But would the committee have been better for hockey if there were
                >> 3 people from the bay area on it? And as the person from the west
                >> who has "no current active connection with the clubs", would I do
                >> a better job on the committee if I went to more Club Puck or SF
                >> practices?
                >>
                >> Sparky: In my opinion, the best people that are qualified for the
                >> job should be on the board as a whole, but not entirely regardless
                >> of region. This does include an entire board knowledge of as many
                >> clubs and players as possible. Personally, I think the current
                >> board member hailing from the west is one of the best qualified
                >> individuals, even if unknown by his 'constituents' .
                >>
                >> Everyone on the committee represents all players in US Hockey, not
                >> just the players in their own club. There are people of different
                >> experience levels, people with different focuses (e.g.,
                >> instructional, Worlds teams, rec level play, junior play) and from
                >> different regions. To me the differences that are most important
                >> are the differences in experience and focus (this one is my
                >> opinion). The only thing I've seen related to committee members
                >> being from different regions is that it makes having a conference
                >> call harder to schedule. :-)
                >>
                >> Sparky: Fully agreed
                >>
                >> There are also regional development directors, whose focus *is*
                >> specific to their region, rather than to US hockey as a whole.
                >> This is a position where your location matters, because much of
                >> what is done is location specific.
                >>
                >> Sparky: Somewhat agreed. Although development directors are
                >> regional, there is no voting power, no allocation of funds, no
                >> consequences to their actions or decisions. Development directors
                >> are almost only facilitators.
                >>
                >> In saying all this, I'm not trying to discourage Jose from
                >> running. I think he should run if he's interested and he believes
                >> he can help US Hockey, as should anyone. I don't think he should
                >> run with the goal of specifically getting something for SF Hockey
                >> (I don't quite know what there is to get).
                >>
                >> I'm guess I'm just concerned about the idea of people voting as a
                >> bloc, as if there's something that the club will get if a member
                >> of their club is elected. I'm also a bit disappointed that people
                >> from SF Hockey feel that their views weren't represented on the
                >> governing committee. I don't recall emails being received by any
                >> of the committee members from SF Hockey players with requests that
                >> were ignored.
                >>
                >> Sparky: We all know that one of the hardest things to do is to get
                >> hockey players to make their views known. Everyone want to play
                >> hockey and have it their way, but only a few will state their
                >> opinions or disapproval in an official manner (if there was an
                >> official manner). The most prolific manner in which the average
                >> hockey player will let 'management' know what's on their mind is
                >> to talk randomly over a beer, although if coerced, I can see them
                >> stating more. How about an annual survey to try to get people to
                >> speak up? Or maybe we just take it that people are happy until
                >> they squeal, then grease that wheel if needed.
                >>
                >> Sean
                >>
                >> --Terry
                >>
                >> I'm keeping my personal opinion out of this one and am just trying
                >> to act as a clarifying agent...
                >>
                >> Is trying to get one person on the board from a club or region
                >> considered "as many as possible"?
                >>
                >> The basic thought (correct me if I'm wrong Tom) is that the club
                >> wants to have a representative number of votes on the board.
                >> the last vote ended with one person on the board representative
                >> for all lands, clubs, and players west of the Rockies. And that
                >> person really has no current active connection with the clubs. I
                >> think that was seen as not being truly representative for the
                >> numbers of players so that west coast interests will be viewed.
                >>
                >> Sparky
                >>
                >>
                >> On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 10:49 AM, Uncle Terry <uncleterry@usa.
                >> net> wrote:
                >> Tom,
                >>
                >> I'm a bit confused by the objective here. You talk about
                >> "splitting our vote" and such. Is there some reason that everyone
                >> from a club is supposed to be voting for the same person? Isn't
                >> the objective to get the best governing committee that we can?
                >> Not to try to stack it with as many people from our club as possible.
                >>
                >> --Terry
                >> BTW José Espinosa is already nominated and I expect SF players
                >> will vote for him. He is very involved with the kids practice, is
                >> reliable help for our adult tournaments ("hey can you do the
                >> food?" and it is there with receipts) and is always one of the
                >> first people to take care of business. Reliable + good ideas +
                >> easy to work with... but not well know outside SF.
                >>
                >> Are there many other people from the area on the ballot this year?
                >> It felt like we split our vote too many ways last year.
                >>
                >> I had a late change in plans and will be at nationals. See you there.
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >> --
                >> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
                >> --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ----
                >> Visit our website at http://sfuwh. org/
                >> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
                >> --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ----
                >> To post to this group, send email to sfuwh@googlegroups. com
                >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sfuwh-unsubscribe@
                >> googlegroups. com
                >> For more options, visit this group at http://groups. google.com/
                >> group/sfuwh
                >> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
                >> --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ----
                >>
                >>
                >> --
                >> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
                >> --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ----
                >> Visit our website at http://sfuwh. org/
                >> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
                >> --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ----
                >> To post to this group, send email to sfuwh@googlegroups. com
                >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sfuwh-unsubscribe@
                >> googlegroups. com
                >> For more options, visit this group at http://groups. google.com/
                >> group/sfuwh
                >> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
                >> --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ----
                >>
                >>
                >> --
                >> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
                >> --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ----
                >> Visit our website at http://sfuwh. org/
                >> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
                >> --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ----
                >> To post to this group, send email to sfuwh@googlegroups. com
                >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sfuwh-unsubscribe@
                >> googlegroups. com
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                >> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
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                >
                >
                >
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              • Doug Roth
                Sadly those of us only on the Club Puck list will only see Club Puck list responses. But given that, I have to agree with T s evaluation of the board as reps
                Message 7 of 14 , Jun 29, 2010
                • 0 Attachment
                  Sadly those of us only on the Club
                  Puck list will only see Club Puck list responses. But given that, I
                  have to agree with T's evaluation of the board as reps for clubs
                  across the country. They are for all of us and have all our interests
                  in mind. Perhaps had you made the effort to get to Nationals you would
                  have seen that. And while there you could have made yourself and your
                  ideas known to players from around the country so that when it came
                  time to vote you had a larger pool of supporters.

                  We do have one regional rep in Sean Avent that is specific for the
                  West Coast. And the other regions have the same set up, so I don't see
                  the imbalance. But Jose, if you really feel that we have only one for
                  all the west coast teams, you might want to run the numbers and see if
                  that is a fact or only a misperception. And would having two reps from
                  the west coast skew it to the over-represented side of the equation?

                  Duck


                  Sent directly from my brain


                  On Jun 29, 2010, at 12:04 PM, "Terry Sutton" <terrysutton@...>
                  wrote:

                  > Jose,
                  >
                  > That's the thinking that I have been objecting to. There is not
                  > "just one
                  > member for all the clubs on the West Coast". There are 7 committee
                  > members
                  > for all the clubs on the West Coast.
                  >
                  > Here's an example of how where a person comes from is irrelevant. A
                  > couple
                  > months ago the governing committee appointed a Competitions
                  > Director, a
                  > position we've never officially had in the US. The CD (Jen Gall) is
                  > tasked
                  > with helping coordinate tournaments, assisting people with what they
                  > need to
                  > run tournaments, cajoling people to have tournaments, etc. She's just
                  > announced that this year's PCCs will be held in San Diego the first
                  > week of
                  > October. This is meaningful, because no one else had gotten this
                  > organized.
                  > PCCs is generally handled quite well by west coast teams, but the
                  > ball got
                  > dropped this year (or no one wanted to host it). And it's one of
                  > the most
                  > popular touraments around for players.
                  >
                  > But Jen, who started playing in Champaign, and now lives in DC,
                  > persisted
                  > and got the tournament scheduled. She did it because her position
                  > is to
                  > serve US Underwater Hockey, not just the club she comes from.
                  >
                  > --Terry
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  >
                  > Hey Chris,
                  >
                  > The under-representation feeling is due the fact that there are just
                  > one member for all the clubs on the West Coast.
                  >
                  > Jose
                  >
                  > On Jun 28, 2010, at 5:47 PM, Chris McDowell wrote:
                  >
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> All, Jose...
                  >>
                  >> Can you share some examples of the general feeling of the West
                  >> Coast being under-represented? Maybe I'm not paying attention, but
                  >> I haven't felt that way. Please do share as we value your opinion...
                  >>
                  >> --C. Clavin
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> From: José H. Espinosa <jhespinosa@...>
                  >> To: Uncle Terry <uncleterry@...>
                  >> Cc: Sean Avent <seanavent@...>; San Francisco Underwater
                  >> Hockey google group <sfuwh@...>;
                  >> clubpuck@yahoogroups.com
                  >> Sent: Mon, June 28, 2010 10:00:33 AM
                  >> Subject: Re: [sfuwh] Re: [clubpuck] Fwd: Important Announcement
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> Hey all,
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> I have talk about this with other San Francisco hockey players and
                  >> we have the general felling that the west coast is underrepresented
                  >> on the Governing Committee. It is not my intention to stack the
                  >> Governing Committee with people of just one region, and I would
                  >> definitely not be running if there were another person from the
                  >> west coast on the GC.
                  >>
                  >> I do believe that having geographical diversity on the Governing
                  >> Committee is crucial for achieving it's goals. Each of the region
                  >> and clubs have something valuable to contribute to hockey. For
                  >> example, San Francisco has a Kid's hockey practice that I will like
                  >> to see replicated in other parts of the country.
                  >>
                  >> Jose
                  >>
                  >> On Jun 27, 2010, at 3:01 PM, Uncle Terry wrote:
                  >>
                  >>> Sean,
                  >>>
                  >>> Whether we agree or disagree on specific points, this has been a
                  >>> good discussion. One small inaccuracy on your part is that last
                  >>> year voters were asked not to vote for more than *2* people from a
                  >>> given region. But you are correct that the western region
                  >>> encompasses people from the 8 clubs mentioned (plus Bellingham &
                  >>> Chico and any other clubs in the west), and relative proportions
                  >>> may be off, especially since only one person was elected from this
                  >>> region. And some may consider it more desirable than others that
                  >>> more representatives come from their region. Each is entitled to
                  >>> his own opinion. And when we first created the bylaws & governing
                  >>> committee, we knew it was a start; an imperfect one, but one we
                  >>> could grow from.
                  >>>
                  >>> I didn't mean to sound discouraging about voting. Even if I think
                  >>> voting as a bloc is not ideal, at least people will be voting, and
                  >>> the will of the people should prevail.
                  >>>
                  >>> I will say that communcations from the governing committee have
                  >>> not been perfect, and for that I apologize. It's something we're
                  >>> actively working on (anyone interested in volunteering to help
                  >>> with the website?). You suggestion of a survey is a very good
                  >>> one, and something I'll discuss with the committee right away- we
                  >>> may even be able to combine it with the upcoming elections.
                  >>> Perhaps even a quarterly survey is a good idea. We do want to
                  >>> hear from people, because no matter what clubs the committee
                  >>> members come from, we serve all.
                  >>>
                  >>> --Terry
                  >>> I'll try to answer with quick responses, this time inserting my
                  >>> opinions:
                  >>>
                  >>> On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 3:32 PM, Uncle Terry <uncleterry@usa. net>
                  >>> wrote:
                  >>> Sean,
                  >>>
                  >>> I appreciate your keeping personal opinion out of it, and I shall
                  >>> try to do the same.
                  >>>
                  >>> What is the purpose of having "a representative number of votes on
                  >>> the board". The only way that a club could have a
                  >>> "representative" number of votes on the committee would be if that
                  >>> club had exactly 1/7 of the players in the country. And what does
                  >>> it mean for a club
                  >>> to "have votes"? This isn't Congress, where the elected
                  >>> representative spend their time sending pork to their own
                  >>> districts. I can't think of a single decision made the the
                  >>> Governing Committee that could be interpreted as favoring one club
                  >>> over another.
                  >>>
                  >>> Sparky: I think the club wanted a more representative ratio. I
                  >>> think they feel that the number of players and clubs on the West
                  >>> coast are currently under-represented - not just the SF club. I'm
                  >>> glad to hear that the board is not favoring clubs (and I don't
                  >>> think at this stage in Hockey that it's very possible). Part of
                  >>> that feeling I think is because most of the local players have no
                  >>> idea who the other people are. I also think that even though the
                  >>> board is doing a great job and representing all uwh players well,
                  >>> the board members, even those who come from a players own region.
                  >>> are greatly unknown to SF players.
                  >>>
                  >>> The reason that geographical diversification was emphasized last
                  >>> time was to minimize the likelihood that no part of the country
                  >>> would feel left out, because no one knew of their teams or playing
                  >>> situations, etc. For instance, if no one was on the committee
                  >>> from the midwest, then the committee might not be well informed of
                  >>> how things are done at the various midwestern tournaments, or who
                  >>> the key people were from various teams, etc. Club Puck & San
                  >>> Francisco could vote for 7 people from the bay area, and no other
                  >>> region would be heard from. The USOA board at one time wanted us
                  >>> to have specific regional members (i.e., exactly one committee
                  >>> member from each region), but most people thought that wasn't a
                  >>> good way to do it.
                  >>>
                  >>> Sparky: I may be wrong but I think the limit was that was
                  >>> understood was that we could vote for only one person from SF,
                  >>> Club Puck, Sacramento, San Diego, LA, Santa Rosa, Oregon and
                  >>> Seattle. And the club, in general, thought that one person on the
                  >>> board under represented that entire population. Personally, I
                  >>> can't be sure, because I'm not sure exactly how many players are
                  >>> in the West vs in other parts/regions of the country (i.e., that
                  >>> the players west of the rockies comprise more or less than 1/7 or
                  >>> 2/7th of the US uwh population.
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>> Last year's election resulted in the committee having people from
                  >>> 7 different areas. There are 3 who are techincally "from the
                  >>> midwest", but none of these three live within 300 miles of each
                  >>> other. So we get information from all parts of the country.
                  >>>
                  >>> Last year 6 of the 15 people running for the committee were from
                  >>> the bay area. And, yes, this may caused some people from getting
                  >>> votes that they may gave gotten if others from the bay area
                  >>> weren't running (assuming people voted for candidates from their
                  >>> own club, rather than choosing the best qualified candidates).
                  >>> But would the committee have been better for hockey if there were
                  >>> 3 people from the bay area on it? And as the person from the west
                  >>> who has "no current active connection with the clubs", would I do
                  >>> a better job on the committee if I went to more Club Puck or SF
                  >>> practices?
                  >>>
                  >>> Sparky: In my opinion, the best people that are qualified for the
                  >>> job should be on the board as a whole, but not entirely regardless
                  >>> of region. This does include an entire board knowledge of as many
                  >>> clubs and players as possible. Personally, I think the current
                  >>> board member hailing from the west is one of the best qualified
                  >>> individuals, even if unknown by his 'constituents' .
                  >>>
                  >>> Everyone on the committee represents all players in US Hockey, not
                  >>> just the players in their own club. There are people of different
                  >>> experience levels, people with different focuses (e.g.,
                  >>> instructional, Worlds teams, rec level play, junior play) and from
                  >>> different regions. To me the differences that are most important
                  >>> are the differences in experience and focus (this one is my
                  >>> opinion). The only thing I've seen related to committee members
                  >>> being from different regions is that it makes having a conference
                  >>> call harder to schedule. :-)
                  >>>
                  >>> Sparky: Fully agreed
                  >>>
                  >>> There are also regional development directors, whose focus *is*
                  >>> specific to their region, rather than to US hockey as a whole.
                  >>> This is a position where your location matters, because much of
                  >>> what is done is location specific.
                  >>>
                  >>> Sparky: Somewhat agreed. Although development directors are
                  >>> regional, there is no voting power, no allocation of funds, no
                  >>> consequences to their actions or decisions. Development directors
                  >>> are almost only facilitators.
                  >>>
                  >>> In saying all this, I'm not trying to discourage Jose from
                  >>> running. I think he should run if he's interested and he believes
                  >>> he can help US Hockey, as should anyone. I don't think he should
                  >>> run with the goal of specifically getting something for SF Hockey
                  >>> (I don't quite know what there is to get).
                  >>>
                  >>> I'm guess I'm just concerned about the idea of people voting as a
                  >>> bloc, as if there's something that the club will get if a member
                  >>> of their club is elected. I'm also a bit disappointed that people
                  >>> from SF Hockey feel that their views weren't represented on the
                  >>> governing committee. I don't recall emails being received by any
                  >>> of the committee members from SF Hockey players with requests that
                  >>> were ignored.
                  >>>
                  >>> Sparky: We all know that one of the hardest things to do is to get
                  >>> hockey players to make their views known. Everyone want to play
                  >>> hockey and have it their way, but only a few will state their
                  >>> opinions or disapproval in an official manner (if there was an
                  >>> official manner). The most prolific manner in which the average
                  >>> hockey player will let 'management' know what's on their mind is
                  >>> to talk randomly over a beer, although if coerced, I can see them
                  >>> stating more. How about an annual survey to try to get people to
                  >>> speak up? Or maybe we just take it that people are happy until
                  >>> they squeal, then grease that wheel if needed.
                  >>>
                  >>> Sean
                  >>>
                  >>> --Terry
                  >>>
                  >>> I'm keeping my personal opinion out of this one and am just trying
                  >>> to act as a clarifying agent...
                  >>>
                  >>> Is trying to get one person on the board from a club or region
                  >>> considered "as many as possible"?
                  >>>
                  >>> The basic thought (correct me if I'm wrong Tom) is that the club
                  >>> wants to have a representative number of votes on the board.
                  >>> the last vote ended with one person on the board representative
                  >>> for all lands, clubs, and players west of the Rockies. And that
                  >>> person really has no current active connection with the clubs. I
                  >>> think that was seen as not being truly representative for the
                  >>> numbers of players so that west coast interests will be viewed.
                  >>>
                  >>> Sparky
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>> On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 10:49 AM, Uncle Terry <uncleterry@usa.
                  >>> net> wrote:
                  >>> Tom,
                  >>>
                  >>> I'm a bit confused by the objective here. You talk about
                  >>> "splitting our vote" and such. Is there some reason that everyone
                  >>> from a club is supposed to be voting for the same person? Isn't
                  >>> the objective to get the best governing committee that we can?
                  >>> Not to try to stack it with as many people from our club as
                  >>> possible.
                  >>>
                  >>> --Terry
                  >>> BTW José Espinosa is already nominated and I expect SF players
                  >>> will vote for him. He is very involved with the kids practice, is
                  >>> reliable help for our adult tournaments ("hey can you do the
                  >>> food?" and it is there with receipts) and is always one of the
                  >>> first people to take care of business. Reliable + good ideas +
                  >>> easy to work with... but not well know outside SF.
                  >>>
                  >>> Are there many other people from the area on the ballot this year?
                  >>> It felt like we split our vote too many ways last year.
                  >>>
                  >>> I had a late change in plans and will be at nationals. See you
                  >>> there.
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>> --
                  >>> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
                  >>> --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ----
                  >>> Visit our website at http://sfuwh. org/
                  >>> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
                  >>> --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ----
                  >>> To post to this group, send email to sfuwh@googlegroups. com
                  >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sfuwh-unsubscribe@
                  >>> googlegroups. com
                  >>> For more options, visit this group at http://groups. google.com/
                  >>> group/sfuwh
                  >>> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
                  >>> --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ----
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>> --
                  >>> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
                  >>> --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ----
                  >>> Visit our website at http://sfuwh. org/
                  >>> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
                  >>> --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ----
                  >>> To post to this group, send email to sfuwh@googlegroups. com
                  >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sfuwh-unsubscribe@
                  >>> googlegroups. com
                  >>> For more options, visit this group at http://groups. google.com/
                  >>> group/sfuwh
                  >>> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
                  >>> --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ----
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>> --
                  >>> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
                  >>> --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ----
                  >>> Visit our website at http://sfuwh. org/
                  >>> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
                  >>> --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ----
                  >>> To post to this group, send email to sfuwh@googlegroups. com
                  >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sfuwh-unsubscribe@
                  >>> googlegroups. com
                  >>> For more options, visit this group at http://groups. google.com/
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                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
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                • Chris McDowell
                  Jose, Ah, I thought you meant under-represented as many people s views not being heard at the board...not that there is only one member. (BTW - Our current
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jun 29, 2010
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Jose,

                    Ah, I thought you meant under-represented as many people's views not being heard at the board...not that there is only one member.  (BTW - Our current representative has been doing a stellar job, in my view.)


                    Questions for you:

                    1.  Is it your belief that more people should be on the board for a larger, more populated area?  If so, how will more people improve our representation for the West Coast at the Board?  One person is all that's needed, we just need to talk to that person for our needs to be known. 

                    2.  If elected, what particular areas would you address that aren't currently covered?

                    3.  Does your feeling of representation have anything to do with ethnic diversity in UW Hockey in any respect?


                    I sincerely want to know your thoughts, especially so that you do always feel included and represented as an UWHockey player.  Please be as candid as possible in response.

                    Thanks!

                    --Chris




                    From: José H. Espinosa <jhespinosa@...>
                    To: clubpuck@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Tue, June 29, 2010 1:40:32 AM
                    Subject: Re: [clubpuck] RE: West Coast Under-Represented...

                    Hey Chris,

                    The under-representation feeling is due the fact that there are just 
                    one member for all the clubs on the West Coast.

                    Jose

                    On Jun 28, 2010, at 5:47 PM, Chris McDowell wrote:



                  • Gustavo Pesce
                    Hey guys - There are two parallel thread on this same topic, I am below pasting a response I sent to the SF list. - I will add Duck that giving crap to people
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jun 29, 2010
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Re: [clubpuck] RE: West Coast Under-Represented...
                      Hey guys - There are two parallel thread on this same topic, I am below pasting a response I sent to the SF list. -

                      I will add Duck that giving crap to people for "not making the effort to go to Nationals" is ridiculous. It is not that you can make an effort to print money in your basement.

                      Hi there - To do its job the board needs competent people and credibility and voting in bloc is good for both.

                      A hard-to-beat way to judge the competence of people for this job is to have direct interactions with them when we organize tournaments, practices, clinics, beginner programs, recruiting and advertising, etc. Second-hand information, gossip, hearsay and written statements are not nearly as good. There are a number of competent people in the bay area that we would like to recommend, but if we don't first chose one here none of them will be selected, in detriment of having the board composed of the most competent people around.

                      Credibility depends on the GB members being representative of the membership. If all the most competent people lived in one location or two they would quite likely end up not being heard or followed in their lead, out of rapport with the constituency. Whatever the GB decides in controversial issues would be seen by many as driven by the members' local interest. Voting in bloc helps get the regions be represented in the board, and helps the board being more credible, and thus more effective.

                      I myself would rather have a regional voting system, and maybe we will have it if others agree, as Terry says we have a system that works, it was a great step, and now we can make it grow or change through members participation. Let's all think our vote carefully and vote for the person or persons we think will the best addition to the US Underwater Hockey GB, for everyone to benefit.

                      See you in the bottom,

                      Gus

                       
                      Sadly those of us only on the Club
                      Puck list will only see Club Puck list responses. But given that, I
                      have to agree with T's evaluation of the board as reps for clubs
                      across the country. They are for all of us and have all our interests
                      in mind. Perhaps had you made the effort to get to Nationals you would
                      have seen that. And while there you could have made yourself and your
                      ideas known to players from around the country so that when it came
                      time to vote you had a larger pool of supporters.

                      We do have one regional rep in Sean Avent that is specific for the
                      West Coast. And the other regions have the same set up, so I don't see
                      the imbalance. But Jose, if you really feel that we have only one for
                      all the west coast teams, you might want to run the numbers and see if
                      that is a fact or only a misperception. And would having two reps from
                      the west coast skew it to the over-represented side of the equation?

                      Duck

                      Sent directly from my brain

                      On Jun 29, 2010, at 12:04 PM, "Terry Sutton" <terrysutton@...>
                      wrote:

                      > Jose,
                      >
                      > That's the thinking that I have been objecting to. There is not
                      > "just one
                      > member for all the clubs on the West Coast". There are 7 committee
                      > members
                      > for all the clubs on the West Coast.
                      >
                      > Here's an example of how where a person comes from is irrelevant. A
                      > couple
                      > months ago the governing committee appointed a Competitions
                      > Director, a
                      > position we've never officially had in the US. The CD (Jen Gall) is
                      > tasked
                      > with helping coordinate tournaments, assisting people with what they
                      > need to
                      > run tournaments, cajoling people to have tournaments, etc. She's just
                      > announced that this year's PCCs will be held in San Diego the first
                      > week of
                      > October. This is meaningful, because no one else had gotten this
                      > organized.
                      > PCCs is generally handled quite well by west coast teams, but the
                      > ball got
                      > dropped this year (or no one wanted to host it). And it's one of
                      > the most
                      > popular touraments around for players.
                      >
                      > But Jen, who started playing in Champaign, and now lives in DC,
                      > persisted
                      > and got the tournament scheduled. She did it because her position
                      > is to
                      > serve US Underwater Hockey, not just the club she comes from.
                      >
                      > --Terry
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      >
                      > Hey Chris,
                      >
                      > The under-representation feeling is due the fact that there are just
                      > one member for all the clubs on the West Coast.
                      >
                      > Jose
                      >
                      > On Jun 28, 2010, at 5:47 PM, Chris McDowell wrote:
                      >
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> All, Jose...
                      >>
                      >> Can you share some examples of the general feeling of the West
                      >> Coast being under-represented? Maybe I'm not paying attention, but
                      >> I haven't felt that way. Please do share as we value your opinion...
                      >>
                      >> --C. Clavin
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> From: José H. Espinosa <jhespinosa@...>
                      >> To: Uncle Terry <uncleterry@...>
                      >> Cc: Sean Avent <seanavent@...>; San Francisco Underwater
                      >> Hockey google group <sfuwh@...>;
                      >> clubpuck@yahoogroups.com
                      >> Sent: Mon, June 28, 2010 10:00:33 AM
                      >> Subject: Re: [sfuwh] Re: [clubpuck] Fwd: Important Announcement
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> Hey all,
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> I have talk about this with other San Francisco hockey players and
                      >> we have the general felling that the west coast is underrepresented
                      >> on the Governing Committee. It is not my intention to stack the
                      >> Governing Committee with people of just one region, and I would
                      >> definitely not be running if there were another person from the
                      >> west coast on the GC.
                      >>
                      >> I do believe that having geographical diversity on the Governing
                      >> Committee is crucial for achieving it's goals. Each of the region
                      >> and clubs have something valuable to contribute to hockey. For
                      >> example, San Francisco has a Kid's hockey practice that I will like
                      >> to see replicated in other parts of the country.
                      >>
                      >> Jose
                      >>
                      >> On Jun 27, 2010, at 3:01 PM, Uncle Terry wrote:
                      >>
                      >>> Sean,
                      >>>
                      >>> Whether we agree or disagree on specific points, this has been a
                      >>> good discussion. One small inaccuracy on your part is that last
                      >>> year voters were asked not to vote for more than *2* people from a
                      >>> given region. But you are correct that the western region
                      >>> encompasses people from the 8 clubs mentioned (plus Bellingham &
                      >>> Chico and any other clubs in the west), and relative proportions
                      >>> may be off, especially since only one person was elected from this
                      >>> region. And some may consider it more desirable than others that
                      >>> more representatives come from their region. Each is entitled to
                      >>> his own opinion. And when we first created the bylaws & governing
                      >>> committee, we knew it was a start; an imperfect one, but one we
                      >>> could grow from.
                      >>>
                      >>> I didn't mean to sound discouraging about voting. Even if I think
                      >>> voting as a bloc is not ideal, at least people will be voting, and
                      >>> the will of the people should prevail.
                      >>>
                      >>> I will say that communcations from the governing committee have
                      >>> not been perfect, and for that I apologize. It's something we're
                      >>> actively working on (anyone interested in volunteering to help
                      >>> with the website?). You suggestion of a survey is a very good
                      >>> one, and something I'll discuss with the committee right away- we
                      >>> may even be able to combine it with the upcoming elections.
                      >>> Perhaps even a quarterly survey is a good idea. We do want to
                      >>> hear from people, because no matter what clubs the committee
                      >>> members come from, we serve all.
                      >>>
                      >>> --Terry
                      >>> I'll try to answer with quick responses, this time inserting my
                      >>> opinions:
                      >>>
                      >>> On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 3:32 PM, Uncle Terry <uncleterry@usa. net>
                      >>> wrote:
                      >>> Sean,
                      >>>
                      >>> I appreciate your keeping personal opinion out of it, and I shall
                      >>> try to do the same.
                      >>>
                      >>> What is the purpose of having "a representative number of votes on
                      >>> the board". The only way that a club could have a
                      >>> "representative" number of votes on the committee would be if that
                      >>> club had exactly 1/7 of the players in the country. And what does
                      >>> it mean for a club
                      >>> to "have votes"? This isn't Congress, where the elected
                      >>> representative spend their time sending pork to their own
                      >>> districts. I can't think of a single decision made the the
                      >>> Governing Committee that could be interpreted as favoring one club
                      >>> over another.
                      >>>
                      >>> Sparky: I think the club wanted a more representative ratio. I
                      >>> think they feel that the number of players and clubs on the West
                      >>> coast are currently under-represented - not just the SF club. I'm
                      >>> glad to hear that the board is not favoring clubs (and I don't
                      >>> think at this stage in Hockey that it's very possible). Part of
                      >>> that feeling I think is because most of the local players have no
                      >>> idea who the other people are. I also think that even though the
                      >>> board is doing a great job and representing all uwh players well,
                      >>> the board members, even those who come from a players own region.
                      >>> are greatly unknown to SF players.
                      >>>
                      >>> The reason that geographical diversification was emphasized last
                      >>> time was to minimize the likelihood that no part of the country
                      >>> would feel left out, because no one knew of their teams or playing
                      >>> situations, etc. For instance, if no one was on the committee
                      >>> from the midwest, then the committee might not be well informed of
                      >>> how things are done at the various midwestern tournaments, or who
                      >>> the key people were from various teams, etc. Club Puck & San
                      >>> Francisco could vote for 7 people from the bay area, and no other
                      >>> region would be heard from. The USOA board at one time wanted us
                      >>> to have specific regional members (i.e., exactly one committee
                      >>> member from each region), but most people thought that wasn't a
                      >>> good way to do it.
                      >>>
                      >>> Sparky: I may be wrong but I think the limit was that was
                      >>> understood was that we could vote for only one person from SF,
                      >>> Club Puck, Sacramento, San Diego, LA, Santa Rosa, Oregon and
                      >>> Seattle. And the club, in general, thought that one person on the
                      >>> board under represented that entire population. Personally, I
                      >>> can't be sure, because I'm not sure exactly how many players are
                      >>> in the West vs in other parts/regions of the country (i.e., that
                      >>> the players west of the rockies comprise more or less than 1/7 or
                      >>> 2/7th of the US uwh population.
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>> Last year's election resulted in the committee having people from
                      >>> 7 different areas. There are 3 who are techincally "from the
                      >>> midwest", but none of these three live within 300 miles of each
                      >>> other. So we get information from all parts of the country.
                      >>>
                      >>> Last year 6 of the 15 people running for the committee were from
                      >>> the bay area. And, yes, this may caused some people from getting
                      >>> votes that they may gave gotten if others from the bay area
                      >>> weren't running (assuming people voted for candidates from their
                      >>> own club, rather than choosing the best qualified candidates).
                      >>> But would the committee have been better for hockey if there were
                      >>> 3 people from the bay area on it? And as the person from the west
                      >>> who has "no current active connection with the clubs", would I do
                      >>> a better job on the committee if I went to more Club Puck or SF
                      >>> practices?
                      >>>
                      >>> Sparky: In my opinion, the best people that are qualified for the
                      >>> job should be on the board as a whole, but not entirely regardless
                      >>> of region. This does include an entire board knowledge of as many
                      >>> clubs and players as possible. Personally, I think the current
                      >>> board member hailing from the west is one of the best qualified
                      >>> individuals, even if unknown by his 'constituents' .
                      >>>
                      >>> Everyone on the committee represents all players in US Hockey, not
                      >>> just the players in their own club. There are people of different
                      >>> experience levels, people with different focuses (e.g.,
                      >>> instructional, Worlds teams, rec level play, junior play) and from
                      >>> different regions. To me the differences that are most important
                      >>> are the differences in experience and focus (this one is my
                      >>> opinion). The only thing I've seen related to committee members
                      >>> being from different regions is that it makes having a conference
                      >>> call harder to schedule. :-)
                      >>>
                      >>> Sparky: Fully agreed
                      >>>
                      >>> There are also regional development directors, whose focus *is*
                      >>> specific to their region, rather than to US hockey as a whole.
                      >>> This is a position where your location matters, because much of
                      >>> what is done is location specific.
                      >>>
                      >>> Sparky: Somewhat agreed. Although development directors are
                      >>> regional, there is no voting power, no allocation of funds, no
                      >>> consequences to their actions or decisions. Development directors
                      >>> are almost only facilitators.
                      >>>
                      >>> In saying all this, I'm not trying to discourage Jose from
                      >>> running. I think he should run if he's interested and he believes
                      >>> he can help US Hockey, as should anyone. I don't think he should
                      >>> run with the goal of specifically getting something for SF Hockey
                      >>> (I don't quite know what there is to get).
                      >>>
                      >>> I'm guess I'm just concerned about the idea of people voting as a
                      >>> bloc, as if there's something that the club will get if a member
                      >>> of their club is elected. I'm also a bit disappointed that people
                      >>> from SF Hockey feel that their views weren't represented on the
                      >>> governing committee. I don't recall emails being received by any
                      >>> of the committee members from SF Hockey players with requests that
                      >>> were ignored.
                      >>>
                      >>> Sparky: We all know that one of the hardest things to do is to get
                      >>> hockey players to make their views known. Everyone want to play
                      >>> hockey and have it their way, but only a few will state their
                      >>> opinions or disapproval in an official manner (if there was an
                      >>> official manner). The most prolific manner in which the average
                      >>> hockey player will let 'management' know what's on their mind is
                      >>> to talk randomly over a beer, although if coerced, I can see them
                      >>> stating more. How about an annual survey to try to get people to
                      >>> speak up? Or maybe we just take it that people are happy until
                      >>> they squeal, then grease that wheel if needed.
                      >>>
                      >>> Sean
                      >>>
                      >>> --Terry
                      >>>
                      >>> I'm keeping my personal opinion out of this one and am just trying
                      >>> to act as a clarifying agent...
                      >>>
                      >>> Is trying to get one person on the board from a club or region
                      >>> considered "as many as possible"?
                      >>>
                      >>> The basic thought (correct me if I'm wrong Tom) is that the club
                      >>> wants to have a representative number of votes on the board.
                      >>> the last vote ended with one person on the board representative
                      >>> for all lands, clubs, and players west of the Rockies. And that
                      >>> person really has no current active connection with the clubs. I
                      >>> think that was seen as not being truly representative for the
                      >>> numbers of players so that west coast interests will be viewed.
                      >>>
                      >>> Sparky
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>> On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 10:49 AM, Uncle Terry <uncleterry@usa.
                      >>> net> wrote:
                      >>> Tom,
                      >>>
                      >>> I'm a bit confused by the objective here. You talk about
                      >>> "splitting our vote" and such. Is there some reason that everyone
                      >>> from a club is supposed to be voting for the same person? Isn't
                      >>> the objective to get the best governing committee that we can?
                      >>> Not to try to stack it with as many people from our club as
                      >>> possible.
                      >>>
                      >>> --Terry
                      >>> BTW José Espinosa is already nominated and I expect SF players
                      >>> will vote for him. He is very involved with the kids practice, is
                      >>> reliable help for our adult tournaments ("hey can you do the
                      >>> food?" and it is there with receipts) and is always one of the
                      >>> first people to take care of business. Reliable + good ideas +
                      >>> easy to work with... but not well know outside SF.
                      >>>
                      >>> Are there many other people from the area on the ballot this year?
                      >>> It felt like we split our vote too many ways last year.
                      >>>
                      >>> I had a late change in plans and will be at nationals. See you
                      >>> there.
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>> --
                      >>> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
                      >>> --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ----
                      >>> Visit our website at http://sfuwh. org/
                      >>> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
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                      >>> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
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                      >>> --
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                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
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                      >> important; } -->
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                    • Gregory Appling
                      Gus, Dougs point was valid. If people truly feel strongly about the GB then they need to meet people around the country and have them vote for them. Another
                      Message 10 of 14 , Jun 29, 2010
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Gus,

                        Dougs point was valid. If people truly feel strongly about the GB then they need to meet people around the country and have them vote for them. Another reason for going to nationals if you are interest in being on the GB is to meet those that are on the GB and talk to them about what is going on.

                        It's a volunteer position. Many like Terry, Sean, Doug, Kendall, Carol, Wendy and others paid their way to make things happen for hockey. Many of us traveled on our own dime to make Hockey what it is today. If you aren't willing to do that then what do you expect others to do.

                        I hope we never get into voting in bloc's. I'm lucky as I personally know everyone on the GB and find them all more the qualified to run hockey. I also know that they have the best interest for hockey across America.

                        If their are people in the bay area that want to run for positions on the GB then they should. But if they don't get their names out to people across the country then they won't be known well enough for people to vote for them (ie Nationals would have been good and if your club feels strongly about it then pool your money and send them).

                        You talk about credibility and competence. Trust me the best minds in hockey don't all live in the Bay Area. Their are great minds across our country and I think we all should take the time to meet them and get to know them before we dismiss them.

                        You do know that the Chairman of the Board is from San Francisco right?

                        I find it funny that as soon as we went from having the people in charge based in the Bay Area that people started complaining about not having someone in charge. That will speak volumes to the rest of the country.

                        gregory

                        Gregory Appling
                        147 Springdale Way
                        Emerald Hills, CA 94062
                        home: 650-260-2093
                        cell: 415-637-0784

                        --- On Tue, 6/29/10, Gustavo Pesce <gpesce@...> wrote:

                        From: Gustavo Pesce <gpesce@...>
                        Subject: Re: [clubpuck] RE: West Coast Under-Represented...
                        To: clubpuck@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Tuesday, June 29, 2010, 12:24 PM

                         

                        Hey guys - There are two parallel thread on this same topic, I am below pasting a response I sent to the SF list. -

                        I will add Duck that giving crap to people for "not making the effort to go to Nationals" is ridiculous. It is not that you can make an effort to print money in your basement.

                        Hi there - To do its job the board needs competent people and credibility and voting in bloc is good for both.

                        A hard-to-beat way to judge the competence of people for this job is to have direct interactions with them when we organize tournaments, practices, clinics, beginner programs, recruiting and advertising, etc. Second-hand information, gossip, hearsay and written statements are not nearly as good. There are a number of competent people in the bay area that we would like to recommend, but if we don't first chose one here none of them will be selected, in detriment of having the board composed of the most competent people around.

                        Credibility depends on the GB members being representative of the membership. If all the most competent people lived in one location or two they would quite likely end up not being heard or followed in their lead, out of rapport with the constituency. Whatever the GB decides in controversial issues would be seen by many as driven by the members' local interest. Voting in bloc helps get the regions be represented in the board, and helps the board being more credible, and thus more effective.

                        I myself would rather have a regional voting system, and maybe we will have it if others agree, as Terry says we have a system that works, it was a great step, and now we can make it grow or change through members participation. Let's all think our vote carefully and vote for the person or persons we think will the best addition to the US Underwater Hockey GB, for everyone to benefit.

                        See you in the bottom,

                        Gus

                         
                        Sadly those of us only on the Club
                        Puck list will only see Club Puck list responses. But given that, I
                        have to agree with T's evaluation of the board as reps for clubs
                        across the country. They are for all of us and have all our interests
                        in mind. Perhaps had you made the effort to get to Nationals you would
                        have seen that. And while there you could have made yourself and your
                        ideas known to players from around the country so that when it came
                        time to vote you had a larger pool of supporters.

                        We do have one regional rep in Sean Avent that is specific for the
                        West Coast. And the other regions have the same set up, so I don't see
                        the imbalance. But Jose, if you really feel that we have only one for
                        all the west coast teams, you might want to run the numbers and see if
                        that is a fact or only a misperception. And would having two reps from
                        the west coast skew it to the over-represented side of the equation?

                        Duck

                        Sent directly from my brain

                        On Jun 29, 2010, at 12:04 PM, "Terry Sutton" <terrysutton@ usa.net>
                        wrote:

                        > Jose,
                        >
                        > That's the thinking that I have been objecting to. There is not
                        > "just one
                        > member for all the clubs on the West Coast". There are 7 committee
                        > members
                        > for all the clubs on the West Coast.
                        >
                        > Here's an example of how where a person comes from is irrelevant. A
                        > couple
                        > months ago the governing committee appointed a Competitions
                        > Director, a
                        > position we've never officially had in the US. The CD (Jen Gall) is
                        > tasked
                        > with helping coordinate tournaments, assisting people with what they
                        > need to
                        > run tournaments, cajoling people to have tournaments, etc. She's just
                        > announced that this year's PCCs will be held in San Diego the first
                        > week of
                        > October. This is meaningful, because no one else had gotten this
                        > organized.
                        > PCCs is generally handled quite well by west coast teams, but the
                        > ball got
                        > dropped this year (or no one wanted to host it). And it's one of
                        > the most
                        > popular touraments around for players.
                        >
                        > But Jen, who started playing in Champaign, and now lives in DC,
                        > persisted
                        > and got the tournament scheduled. She did it because her position
                        > is to
                        > serve US Underwater Hockey, not just the club she comes from.
                        >
                        > --Terry
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        >
                        > Hey Chris,
                        >
                        > The under-representatio n feeling is due the fact that there are just
                        > one member for all the clubs on the West Coast.
                        >
                        > Jose
                        >
                        > On Jun 28, 2010, at 5:47 PM, Chris McDowell wrote:
                        >
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> All, Jose...
                        >>
                        >> Can you share some examples of the general feeling of the West
                        >> Coast being under-represented? Maybe I'm not paying attention, but
                        >> I haven't felt that way. Please do share as we value your opinion...
                        >>
                        >> --C. Clavin
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> From: José H. Espinosa <jhespinosa@gmail. com>
                        >> To: Uncle Terry <uncleterry@usa. net>
                        >> Cc: Sean Avent <seanavent@gmail. com>; San Francisco Underwater
                        >> Hockey google group <sfuwh@googlegroups. com>;
                        >> clubpuck@yahoogroup s.com
                        >> Sent: Mon, June 28, 2010 10:00:33 AM
                        >> Subject: Re: [sfuwh] Re: [clubpuck] Fwd: Important Announcement
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> Hey all,
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> I have talk about this with other San Francisco hockey players and
                        >> we have the general felling that the west coast is underrepresented
                        >> on the Governing Committee. It is not my intention to stack the
                        >> Governing Committee with people of just one region, and I would
                        >> definitely not be running if there were another person from the
                        >> west coast on the GC.
                        >>
                        >> I do believe that having geographical diversity on the Governing
                        >> Committee is crucial for achieving it's goals. Each of the region
                        >> and clubs have something valuable to contribute to hockey. For
                        >> example, San Francisco has a Kid's hockey practice that I will like
                        >> to see replicated in other parts of the country.
                        >>
                        >> Jose
                        >>
                        >> On Jun 27, 2010, at 3:01 PM, Uncle Terry wrote:
                        >>
                        >>> Sean,
                        >>>
                        >>> Whether we agree or disagree on specific points, this has been a
                        >>> good discussion. One small inaccuracy on your part is that last
                        >>> year voters were asked not to vote for more than *2* people from a
                        >>> given region. But you are correct that the western region
                        >>> encompasses people from the 8 clubs mentioned (plus Bellingham &
                        >>> Chico and any other clubs in the west), and relative proportions
                        >>> may be off, especially since only one person was elected from this
                        >>> region. And some may consider it more desirable than others that
                        >>> more representatives come from their region. Each is entitled to
                        >>> his own opinion. And when we first created the bylaws & governing
                        >>> committee, we knew it was a start; an imperfect one, but one we
                        >>> could grow from.
                        >>>
                        >>> I didn't mean to sound discouraging about voting. Even if I think
                        >>> voting as a bloc is not ideal, at least people will be voting, and
                        >>> the will of the people should prevail.
                        >>>
                        >>> I will say that communcations from the governing committee have
                        >>> not been perfect, and for that I apologize. It's something we're
                        >>> actively working on (anyone interested in volunteering to help
                        >>> with the website?). You suggestion of a survey is a very good
                        >>> one, and something I'll discuss with the committee right away- we
                        >>> may even be able to combine it with the upcoming elections.
                        >>> Perhaps even a quarterly survey is a good idea. We do want to
                        >>> hear from people, because no matter what clubs the committee
                        >>> members come from, we serve all.
                        >>>
                        >>> --Terry
                        >>> I'll try to answer with quick responses, this time inserting my
                        >>> opinions:
                        >>>
                        >>> On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 3:32 PM, Uncle Terry <uncleterry@usa. net>
                        >>> wrote:
                        >>> Sean,
                        >>>
                        >>> I appreciate your keeping personal opinion out of it, and I shall
                        >>> try to do the same.
                        >>>
                        >>> What is the purpose of having "a representative number of votes on
                        >>> the board". The only way that a club could have a
                        >>> "representative" number of votes on the committee would be if that
                        >>> club had exactly 1/7 of the players in the country. And what does
                        >>> it mean for a club
                        >>> to "have votes"? This isn't Congress, where the elected
                        >>> representative spend their time sending pork to their own
                        >>> districts. I can't think of a single decision made the the
                        >>> Governing Committee that could be interpreted as favoring one club
                        >>> over another.
                        >>>
                        >>> Sparky: I think the club wanted a more representative ratio. I
                        >>> think they feel that the number of players and clubs on the West
                        >>> coast are currently under-represented - not just the SF club. I'm
                        >>> glad to hear that the board is not favoring clubs (and I don't
                        >>> think at this stage in Hockey that it's very possible). Part of
                        >>> that feeling I think is because most of the local players have no
                        >>> idea who the other people are. I also think that even though the
                        >>> board is doing a great job and representing all uwh players well,
                        >>> the board members, even those who come from a players own region.
                        >>> are greatly unknown to SF players.
                        >>>
                        >>> The reason that geographical diversification was emphasized last
                        >>> time was to minimize the likelihood that no part of the country
                        >>> would feel left out, because no one knew of their teams or playing
                        >>> situations, etc. For instance, if no one was on the committee
                        >>> from the midwest, then the committee might not be well informed of
                        >>> how things are done at the various midwestern tournaments, or who
                        >>> the key people were from various teams, etc. Club Puck & San
                        >>> Francisco could vote for 7 people from the bay area, and no other
                        >>> region would be heard from. The USOA board at one time wanted us
                        >>> to have specific regional members (i.e., exactly one committee
                        >>> member from each region), but most people thought that wasn't a
                        >>> good way to do it.
                        >>>
                        >>> Sparky: I may be wrong but I think the limit was that was
                        >>> understood was that we could vote for only one person from SF,
                        >>> Club Puck, Sacramento, San Diego, LA, Santa Rosa, Oregon and
                        >>> Seattle. And the club, in general, thought that one person on the
                        >>> board under represented that entire population. Personally, I
                        >>> can't be sure, because I'm not sure exactly how many players are
                        >>> in the West vs in other parts/regions of the country (i.e., that
                        >>> the players west of the rockies comprise more or less than 1/7 or
                        >>> 2/7th of the US uwh population.
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>> Last year's election resulted in the committee having people from
                        >>> 7 different areas. There are 3 who are techincally "from the
                        >>> midwest", but none of these three live within 300 miles of each
                        >>> other. So we get information from all parts of the country.
                        >>>
                        >>> Last year 6 of the 15 people running for the committee were from
                        >>> the bay area. And, yes, this may caused some people from getting
                        >>> votes that they may gave gotten if others from the bay area
                        >>> weren't running (assuming people voted for candidates from their
                        >>> own club, rather than choosing the best qualified candidates).
                        >>> But would the committee have been better for hockey if there were
                        >>> 3 people from the bay area on it? And as the person from the west
                        >>> who has "no current active connection with the clubs", would I do
                        >>> a better job on the committee if I went to more Club Puck or SF
                        >>> practices?
                        >>>
                        >>> Sparky: In my opinion, the best people that are qualified for the
                        >>> job should be on the board as a whole, but not entirely regardless
                        >>> of region. This does include an entire board knowledge of as many
                        >>> clubs and players as possible. Personally, I think the current
                        >>> board member hailing from the west is one of the best qualified
                        >>> individuals, even if unknown by his 'constituents' .
                        >>>
                        >>> Everyone on the committee represents all players in US Hockey, not
                        >>> just the players in their own club. There are people of different
                        >>> experience levels, people with different focuses (e.g.,
                        >>> instructional, Worlds teams, rec level play, junior play) and from
                        >>> different regions. To me the differences that are most important
                        >>> are the differences in experience and focus (this one is my
                        >>> opinion). The only thing I've seen related to committee members
                        >>> being from different regions is that it makes having a conference
                        >>> call harder to schedule. :-)
                        >>>
                        >>> Sparky: Fully agreed
                        >>>
                        >>> There are also regional development directors, whose focus *is*
                        >>> specific to their region, rather than to US hockey as a whole.
                        >>> This is a position where your location matters, because much of
                        >>> what is done is location specific.
                        >>>
                        >>> Sparky: Somewhat agreed. Although development directors are
                        >>> regional, there is no voting power, no allocation of funds, no
                        >>> consequences to their actions or decisions. Development directors
                        >>> are almost only facilitators.
                        >>>
                        >>> In saying all this, I'm not trying to discourage Jose from
                        >>> running. I think he should run if he's interested and he believes
                        >>> he can help US Hockey, as should anyone. I don't think he should
                        >>> run with the goal of specifically getting something for SF Hockey
                        >>> (I don't quite know what there is to get).
                        >>>
                        >>> I'm guess I'm just concerned about the idea of people voting as a
                        >>> bloc, as if there's something that the club will get if a member
                        >>> of their club is elected. I'm also a bit disappointed that people
                        >>> from SF Hockey feel that their views weren't represented on the
                        >>> governing committee. I don't recall emails being received by any
                        >>> of the committee members from SF Hockey players with requests that
                        >>> were ignored.
                        >>>
                        >>> Sparky: We all know that one of the hardest things to do is to get
                        >>> hockey players to make their views known. Everyone want to play
                        >>> hockey and have it their way, but only a few will state their
                        >>> opinions or disapproval in an official manner (if there was an
                        >>> official manner). The most prolific manner in which the average
                        >>> hockey player will let 'management' know what's on their mind is
                        >>> to talk randomly over a beer, although if coerced, I can see them
                        >>> stating more. How about an annual survey to try to get people to
                        >>> speak up? Or maybe we just take it that people are happy until
                        >>> they squeal, then grease that wheel if needed.
                        >>>
                        >>> Sean
                        >>>
                        >>> --Terry
                        >>>
                        >>> I'm keeping my personal opinion out of this one and am just trying
                        >>> to act as a clarifying agent...
                        >>>
                        >>> Is trying to get one person on the board from a club or region
                        >>> considered "as many as possible"?
                        >>>
                        >>> The basic thought (correct me if I'm wrong Tom) is that the club
                        >>> wants to have a representative number of votes on the board.
                        >>> the last vote ended with one person on the board representative
                        >>> for all lands, clubs, and players west of the Rockies. And that
                        >>> person really has no current active connection with the clubs. I
                        >>> think that was seen as not being truly representative for the
                        >>> numbers of players so that west coast interests will be viewed.
                        >>>
                        >>> Sparky
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>> On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 10:49 AM, Uncle Terry <uncleterry@usa.
                        >>> net> wrote:
                        >>> Tom,
                        >>>
                        >>> I'm a bit confused by the objective here. You talk about
                        >>> "splitting our vote" and such. Is there some reason that everyone
                        >>> from a club is supposed to be voting for the same person? Isn't
                        >>> the objective to get the best governing committee that we can?
                        >>> Not to try to stack it with as many people from our club as
                        >>> possible.
                        >>>
                        >>> --Terry
                        >>> BTW José Espinosa is already nominated and I expect SF players
                        >>> will vote for him. He is very involved with the kids practice, is
                        >>> reliable help for our adult tournaments ("hey can you do the
                        >>> food?" and it is there with receipts) and is always one of the
                        >>> first people to take care of business. Reliable + good ideas +
                        >>> easy to work with... but not well know outside SF.
                        >>>
                        >>> Are there many other people from the area on the ballot this year?
                        >>> It felt like we split our vote too many ways last year.
                        >>>
                        >>> I had a late change in plans and will be at nationals. See you
                        >>> there.
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>> --
                        >>> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
                        >>> --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ----
                        >>> Visit our website at http://sfuwh. org/
                        >>> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
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                        >>> group/sfuwh
                        >>> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
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                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>> --
                        >>> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
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                        >>> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
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                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>> --
                        >>> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
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                        >>> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
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                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
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                      • Sean Avent
                        Duck and others - I just want to make sure that what you are saying is that all hockey players are encouraged to take part in our organization rather than just
                        Message 11 of 14 , Jun 29, 2010
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Duck and others -
                           
                          I just want to make sure that what you are saying is that all hockey players are encouraged to take part in our organization rather than just those who can attend Nationals, right? But attending Nationals, although expensive for some, allows a person to more actively connect with those players from other parts of the country.
                          As far as regional representation goes, we only have development directors, who do not attend board meetings, nor have a vote at those meetings. The development director's roles are curently largely undefined, except to promote hockey in the region.  Hmmmmm.......
                          So given that, I will say that I, as the Regional Director of the Northwest (I assume that covers the Bay Area?) and as an unofficial stand-in for the Southwest, will try to actively connect with hockey players on the west coast to find out what they want. Given that hockey these days is limited for me and atttendance at tournaments or visits to other clubs is rare, I'll try to do an internet survey.
                           
                          Does anyone want me to include particular questiosn that they'd like to see asked?
                           
                          Sean
                              
                          On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 9:58 AM, Doug Roth <coachduck@...> wrote:
                           

                          Sadly those of us only on the Club
                          Puck list will only see Club Puck list responses. But given that, I
                          have to agree with T's evaluation of the board as reps for clubs
                          across the country. They are for all of us and have all our interests
                          in mind. Perhaps had you made the effort to get to Nationals you would
                          have seen that. And while there you could have made yourself and your
                          ideas known to players from around the country so that when it came
                          time to vote you had a larger pool of supporters.

                          We do have one regional rep in Sean Avent that is specific for the
                          West Coast. And the other regions have the same set up, so I don't see
                          the imbalance. But Jose, if you really feel that we have only one for
                          all the west coast teams, you might want to run the numbers and see if
                          that is a fact or only a misperception. And would having two reps from
                          the west coast skew it to the over-represented side of the equation?

                          Duck

                          Sent directly from my brain

                          On Jun 29, 2010, at 12:04 PM, "Terry Sutton" <terrysutton@...>
                          wrote:



                          > Jose,
                          >
                          > That's the thinking that I have been objecting to. There is not
                          > "just one
                          > member for all the clubs on the West Coast". There are 7 committee
                          > members
                          > for all the clubs on the West Coast.
                          >
                          > Here's an example of how where a person comes from is irrelevant. A
                          > couple
                          > months ago the governing committee appointed a Competitions
                          > Director, a
                          > position we've never officially had in the US. The CD (Jen Gall) is
                          > tasked
                          > with helping coordinate tournaments, assisting people with what they
                          > need to
                          > run tournaments, cajoling people to have tournaments, etc. She's just
                          > announced that this year's PCCs will be held in San Diego the first
                          > week of
                          > October. This is meaningful, because no one else had gotten this
                          > organized.
                          > PCCs is generally handled quite well by west coast teams, but the
                          > ball got
                          > dropped this year (or no one wanted to host it). And it's one of
                          > the most
                          > popular touraments around for players.
                          >
                          > But Jen, who started playing in Champaign, and now lives in DC,
                          > persisted
                          > and got the tournament scheduled. She did it because her position
                          > is to
                          > serve US Underwater Hockey, not just the club she comes from.
                          >
                          > --Terry
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          >
                          > Hey Chris,
                          >
                          > The under-representation feeling is due the fact that there are just
                          > one member for all the clubs on the West Coast.
                          >
                          > Jose
                          >
                          > On Jun 28, 2010, at 5:47 PM, Chris McDowell wrote:
                          >
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> All, Jose...
                          >>
                          >> Can you share some examples of the general feeling of the West
                          >> Coast being under-represented? Maybe I'm not paying attention, but
                          >> I haven't felt that way. Please do share as we value your opinion...
                          >>
                          >> --C. Clavin
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> From: José H. Espinosa <jhespinosa@...>
                          >> To: Uncle Terry <uncleterry@...>
                          >> Cc: Sean Avent <seanavent@...>; San Francisco Underwater
                          >> Hockey google group <sfuwh@...>;
                          >> clubpuck@yahoogroups.com
                          >> Sent: Mon, June 28, 2010 10:00:33 AM
                          >> Subject: Re: [sfuwh] Re: [clubpuck] Fwd: Important Announcement
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> Hey all,
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> I have talk about this with other San Francisco hockey players and
                          >> we have the general felling that the west coast is underrepresented
                          >> on the Governing Committee. It is not my intention to stack the
                          >> Governing Committee with people of just one region, and I would
                          >> definitely not be running if there were another person from the
                          >> west coast on the GC.
                          >>
                          >> I do believe that having geographical diversity on the Governing
                          >> Committee is crucial for achieving it's goals. Each of the region
                          >> and clubs have something valuable to contribute to hockey. For
                          >> example, San Francisco has a Kid's hockey practice that I will like
                          >> to see replicated in other parts of the country.
                          >>
                          >> Jose
                          >>
                          >> On Jun 27, 2010, at 3:01 PM, Uncle Terry wrote:
                          >>
                          >>> Sean,
                          >>>
                          >>> Whether we agree or disagree on specific points, this has been a
                          >>> good discussion. One small inaccuracy on your part is that last
                          >>> year voters were asked not to vote for more than *2* people from a
                          >>> given region. But you are correct that the western region
                          >>> encompasses people from the 8 clubs mentioned (plus Bellingham &
                          >>> Chico and any other clubs in the west), and relative proportions
                          >>> may be off, especially since only one person was elected from this
                          >>> region. And some may consider it more desirable than others that
                          >>> more representatives come from their region. Each is entitled to
                          >>> his own opinion. And when we first created the bylaws & governing
                          >>> committee, we knew it was a start; an imperfect one, but one we
                          >>> could grow from.
                          >>>
                          >>> I didn't mean to sound discouraging about voting. Even if I think
                          >>> voting as a bloc is not ideal, at least people will be voting, and
                          >>> the will of the people should prevail.
                          >>>
                          >>> I will say that communcations from the governing committee have
                          >>> not been perfect, and for that I apologize. It's something we're
                          >>> actively working on (anyone interested in volunteering to help
                          >>> with the website?). You suggestion of a survey is a very good
                          >>> one, and something I'll discuss with the committee right away- we
                          >>> may even be able to combine it with the upcoming elections.
                          >>> Perhaps even a quarterly survey is a good idea. We do want to
                          >>> hear from people, because no matter what clubs the committee
                          >>> members come from, we serve all.
                          >>>
                          >>> --Terry
                          >>> I'll try to answer with quick responses, this time inserting my
                          >>> opinions:
                          >>>
                          >>> On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 3:32 PM, Uncle Terry <uncleterry@usa. net>
                          >>> wrote:
                          >>> Sean,
                          >>>
                          >>> I appreciate your keeping personal opinion out of it, and I shall
                          >>> try to do the same.
                          >>>
                          >>> What is the purpose of having "a representative number of votes on
                          >>> the board". The only way that a club could have a
                          >>> "representative" number of votes on the committee would be if that
                          >>> club had exactly 1/7 of the players in the country. And what does
                          >>> it mean for a club
                          >>> to "have votes"? This isn't Congress, where the elected
                          >>> representative spend their time sending pork to their own
                          >>> districts. I can't think of a single decision made the the
                          >>> Governing Committee that could be interpreted as favoring one club
                          >>> over another.
                          >>>
                          >>> Sparky: I think the club wanted a more representative ratio. I
                          >>> think they feel that the number of players and clubs on the West
                          >>> coast are currently under-represented - not just the SF club. I'm
                          >>> glad to hear that the board is not favoring clubs (and I don't
                          >>> think at this stage in Hockey that it's very possible). Part of
                          >>> that feeling I think is because most of the local players have no
                          >>> idea who the other people are. I also think that even though the
                          >>> board is doing a great job and representing all uwh players well,
                          >>> the board members, even those who come from a players own region.
                          >>> are greatly unknown to SF players.
                          >>>
                          >>> The reason that geographical diversification was emphasized last
                          >>> time was to minimize the likelihood that no part of the country
                          >>> would feel left out, because no one knew of their teams or playing
                          >>> situations, etc. For instance, if no one was on the committee
                          >>> from the midwest, then the committee might not be well informed of
                          >>> how things are done at the various midwestern tournaments, or who
                          >>> the key people were from various teams, etc. Club Puck & San
                          >>> Francisco could vote for 7 people from the bay area, and no other
                          >>> region would be heard from. The USOA board at one time wanted us
                          >>> to have specific regional members (i.e., exactly one committee
                          >>> member from each region), but most people thought that wasn't a
                          >>> good way to do it.
                          >>>
                          >>> Sparky: I may be wrong but I think the limit was that was
                          >>> understood was that we could vote for only one person from SF,
                          >>> Club Puck, Sacramento, San Diego, LA, Santa Rosa, Oregon and
                          >>> Seattle. And the club, in general, thought that one person on the
                          >>> board under represented that entire population. Personally, I
                          >>> can't be sure, because I'm not sure exactly how many players are
                          >>> in the West vs in other parts/regions of the country (i.e., that
                          >>> the players west of the rockies comprise more or less than 1/7 or
                          >>> 2/7th of the US uwh population.
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>> Last year's election resulted in the committee having people from
                          >>> 7 different areas. There are 3 who are techincally "from the
                          >>> midwest", but none of these three live within 300 miles of each
                          >>> other. So we get information from all parts of the country.
                          >>>
                          >>> Last year 6 of the 15 people running for the committee were from
                          >>> the bay area. And, yes, this may caused some people from getting
                          >>> votes that they may gave gotten if others from the bay area
                          >>> weren't running (assuming people voted for candidates from their
                          >>> own club, rather than choosing the best qualified candidates).
                          >>> But would the committee have been better for hockey if there were
                          >>> 3 people from the bay area on it? And as the person from the west
                          >>> who has "no current active connection with the clubs", would I do
                          >>> a better job on the committee if I went to more Club Puck or SF
                          >>> practices?
                          >>>
                          >>> Sparky: In my opinion, the best people that are qualified for the
                          >>> job should be on the board as a whole, but not entirely regardless
                          >>> of region. This does include an entire board knowledge of as many
                          >>> clubs and players as possible. Personally, I think the current
                          >>> board member hailing from the west is one of the best qualified
                          >>> individuals, even if unknown by his 'constituents' .
                          >>>
                          >>> Everyone on the committee represents all players in US Hockey, not
                          >>> just the players in their own club. There are people of different
                          >>> experience levels, people with different focuses (e.g.,
                          >>> instructional, Worlds teams, rec level play, junior play) and from
                          >>> different regions. To me the differences that are most important
                          >>> are the differences in experience and focus (this one is my
                          >>> opinion). The only thing I've seen related to committee members
                          >>> being from different regions is that it makes having a conference
                          >>> call harder to schedule. :-)
                          >>>
                          >>> Sparky: Fully agreed
                          >>>
                          >>> There are also regional development directors, whose focus *is*
                          >>> specific to their region, rather than to US hockey as a whole.
                          >>> This is a position where your location matters, because much of
                          >>> what is done is location specific.
                          >>>
                          >>> Sparky: Somewhat agreed. Although development directors are
                          >>> regional, there is no voting power, no allocation of funds, no
                          >>> consequences to their actions or decisions. Development directors
                          >>> are almost only facilitators.
                          >>>
                          >>> In saying all this, I'm not trying to discourage Jose from
                          >>> running. I think he should run if he's interested and he believes
                          >>> he can help US Hockey, as should anyone. I don't think he should
                          >>> run with the goal of specifically getting something for SF Hockey
                          >>> (I don't quite know what there is to get).
                          >>>
                          >>> I'm guess I'm just concerned about the idea of people voting as a
                          >>> bloc, as if there's something that the club will get if a member
                          >>> of their club is elected. I'm also a bit disappointed that people
                          >>> from SF Hockey feel that their views weren't represented on the
                          >>> governing committee. I don't recall emails being received by any
                          >>> of the committee members from SF Hockey players with requests that
                          >>> were ignored.
                          >>>
                          >>> Sparky: We all know that one of the hardest things to do is to get
                          >>> hockey players to make their views known. Everyone want to play
                          >>> hockey and have it their way, but only a few will state their
                          >>> opinions or disapproval in an official manner (if there was an
                          >>> official manner). The most prolific manner in which the average
                          >>> hockey player will let 'management' know what's on their mind is
                          >>> to talk randomly over a beer, although if coerced, I can see them
                          >>> stating more. How about an annual survey to try to get people to
                          >>> speak up? Or maybe we just take it that people are happy until
                          >>> they squeal, then grease that wheel if needed.
                          >>>
                          >>> Sean
                          >>>
                          >>> --Terry
                          >>>
                          >>> I'm keeping my personal opinion out of this one and am just trying
                          >>> to act as a clarifying agent...
                          >>>
                          >>> Is trying to get one person on the board from a club or region
                          >>> considered "as many as possible"?
                          >>>
                          >>> The basic thought (correct me if I'm wrong Tom) is that the club
                          >>> wants to have a representative number of votes on the board.
                          >>> the last vote ended with one person on the board representative
                          >>> for all lands, clubs, and players west of the Rockies. And that
                          >>> person really has no current active connection with the clubs. I
                          >>> think that was seen as not being truly representative for the
                          >>> numbers of players so that west coast interests will be viewed.
                          >>>
                          >>> Sparky
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>> On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 10:49 AM, Uncle Terry <uncleterry@usa.
                          >>> net> wrote:
                          >>> Tom,
                          >>>
                          >>> I'm a bit confused by the objective here. You talk about
                          >>> "splitting our vote" and such. Is there some reason that everyone
                          >>> from a club is supposed to be voting for the same person? Isn't
                          >>> the objective to get the best governing committee that we can?
                          >>> Not to try to stack it with as many people from our club as
                          >>> possible.
                          >>>
                          >>> --Terry
                          >>> BTW José Espinosa is already nominated and I expect SF players
                          >>> will vote for him. He is very involved with the kids practice, is
                          >>> reliable help for our adult tournaments ("hey can you do the
                          >>> food?" and it is there with receipts) and is always one of the
                          >>> first people to take care of business. Reliable + good ideas +
                          >>> easy to work with... but not well know outside SF.
                          >>>
                          >>> Are there many other people from the area on the ballot this year?
                          >>> It felt like we split our vote too many ways last year.
                          >>>
                          >>> I had a late change in plans and will be at nationals. See you
                          >>> there.
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>> --
                          >>> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
                          >>> --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ----
                          >>> Visit our website at http://sfuwh. org/
                          >>> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
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                          >>> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
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                          >>>
                          >>> --
                          >>> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
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                          >>> Visit our website at http://sfuwh. org/
                          >>> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
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                          >>>
                          >>> --
                          >>> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
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                          >>> Visit our website at http://sfuwh. org/
                          >>> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
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                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
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                        • cvdwl
                          As an expat underwater hockey player (yeah, I ve played in the last six months, why do you ask?), I demand representation!! I will hereby convene a
                          Message 12 of 14 , Jun 29, 2010
                          • 0 Attachment
                            As an expat underwater hockey player (yeah, I've played in the last six months, why do you ask?), I demand representation!!  I will hereby convene a constitutional convention... somewhere, in the bay, sometime in the first week of August.. or thereabouts.  Us expats, slaving away on foreign soil to protect the American way, don't get no respect!

                            CVL, lately of teams Munich, Zurich, and a team where the Belgians were the fun guys and the Italian food wasn't.  Go figure



                            From: Chris McDowell <McDowell_C@...>
                            To: clubpuck@yahoogroups.com; Sean Avent <seanavent@...>
                            Cc: José H. Espinosa <jhespinosa@...>; San Francisco Underwater Hockey google group <sfuwh@...>; clubpuck@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Tue, June 29, 2010 2:42:37 AM
                            Subject: [clubpuck] Quarterly Surveys...Here, Here!

                             

                            Here, Here!

                            You know, I recall a time when we used to have routine surveys, at least quarterly, over drinks at Uncle T's place - Casa Sanchez - the best possible place to commune and share our feelings and thoughts on all matters UWHockey, etc.  There's no agenda or talking points, so we always talked away until around 11 PM or so...or until Richard from upstairs "blew a gasket" (no pun) for the 3rd time or so...and then we'd send Sparky out to calm him down.

                            I say it's high time for a quarterly meeting.  Those favoring a more rigid application of parliamentary procedure need not attend.  And...I hereby volunteer to be your BBQ Master at the next Un-Official Quarterly Survey at Uncle T's Place (assuming I'm in town), and the only question left is when the next Quarterly Survey will be???

                            --C. Clavin



                             Perhaps even a quarterly survey is a good idea.  We do want to hear from people, because no matter what clubs the committee members come from, we serve all.
                             
                            --Terry


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