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Re: [climatechangedebate] Arctic ice

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  • bobmagi@att.net
    Ian, Do the Inuit claim 1940s were as warm as now? Were their villages melting? Ice can be measured from space because it floats higher. I m posting this
    Message 1 of 30 , Jul 1, 2008
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      Ian,

      Do the Inuit claim 1940s were as warm as now? Were their villages melting?

      Ice can be measured from space because it floats higher.

      I'm posting this message from my boat 16 miles offshore at midnight, West of the Olympic Penninsula, while traveling North at 5.5 knots. Info Tech just keeps getting better, but energy tech is still lagging.

      The arctic ice area is reducing about the same as the antarctic is increasing:

      http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/IMAGES/current.365.jpg

      Bob
      -------------- Original message ----------------------
      From: "Ian L. McQueen" <imcqueen@...>
      >
      > What I have read tells me that it was "warmer" in the arctic in the 40s
      > (maybe 30s) than it is now. Several boats have traversed the Northwest
      > Passage over the years. I doubt that it was wide open, but boats did get
      > through. Maybe googling "St. Roch" will find something, otherwise "northwest
      > passage" is sure to bring something up.
      > As for the ice thickness this year, a couple of British wags said that
      > the only way to determine it was to go up there and measure it. I believe
      > that they mentioned transporting a radar on a sled.
      >
      > Ian
      >
    • Kevin Hall
      Bob, I suppose that 6 months from now, you ll be telling us that Antarctic ice is decreasing as Arctic ice is increasing. Enjoy the ocean. Regards, Kevin ...
      Message 2 of 30 , Jul 1, 2008
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        Bob, I suppose that 6 months from now, you'll be telling us that Antarctic ice is decreasing as Arctic ice is increasing. Enjoy the ocean.
        Regards, Kevin


        --- On Tue, 7/1/08, bobmagi@... <bobmagi@...> wrote:
        From: bobmagi@... <bobmagi@...>
        Subject: Re: [climatechangedebate] Arctic ice
        To: climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008, 8:05 AM


        Ian,

        Do the Inuit claim 1940s were as warm as now? Were their villages melting?

        Ice can be measured from space because it floats higher.

        I'm posting this message from my boat 16 miles offshore at midnight, West of the Olympic Penninsula, while traveling North at 5.5 knots. Info Tech just keeps getting better, but energy tech is still lagging.

        The arctic ice area is reducing about the same as the antarctic is increasing:

        http://arctic. atmos.uiuc. edu/cryosphere/ IMAGES/current. 365.jpg

        Bob
        ------------ -- Original message ------------ --------- -
        From: "Ian L. McQueen" <imcqueen@nbnet. nb.ca>
        >
        > What I have read tells me that it was "warmer" in the arctic in the 40s
        > (maybe 30s) than it is now. Several boats have traversed the Northwest
        > Passage over the years. I doubt that it was wide open, but boats did get
        > through. Maybe googling "St. Roch" will find something, otherwise "northwest
        > passage" is sure to bring something up.
        > As for the ice thickness this year, a couple of British wags said that
        > the only way to determine it was to go up there and measure it. I believe
        > that they mentioned transporting a radar on a sled.
        >
        > Ian
        >

      • Ian L. McQueen
        Bob- Nice life! Enjoy your aquatic ventures. We ll worry about Arctic ice after your voyage. Lots of time to see what happens. Do we have any reports about ice
        Message 3 of 30 , Jul 1, 2008
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          Bob-

          Nice life! Enjoy your aquatic ventures. We'll worry about Arctic ice
          after your voyage. Lots of time to see what happens.

          Do we have any reports about ice actually melting and disappearing drop
          by drop, or are the events always large-scale crashes and then drifiting
          away with the wind and current? The latter have been considered
          important.....

          Ian

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: <bobmagi@...>
          To: <climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 4:05 AM
          Subject: Re: [climatechangedebate] Arctic ice



          Ian,

          Do the Inuit claim 1940s were as warm as now? Were their villages melting?

          Ice can be measured from space because it floats higher.

          I'm posting this message from my boat 16 miles offshore at midnight, West of
          the Olympic Penninsula, while traveling North at 5.5 knots. Info Tech just
          keeps getting better, but energy tech is still lagging.

          The arctic ice area is reducing about the same as the antarctic is
          increasing:

          http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/IMAGES/current.365.jpg

          Bob
          -------------- Original message ----------------------
          From: "Ian L. McQueen" <imcqueen@...>
          >
          > What I have read tells me that it was "warmer" in the arctic in the
          > 40s
          > (maybe 30s) than it is now. Several boats have traversed the Northwest
          > Passage over the years. I doubt that it was wide open, but boats did get
          > through. Maybe googling "St. Roch" will find something, otherwise
          > "northwest
          > passage" is sure to bring something up.
          > As for the ice thickness this year, a couple of British wags said that
          > the only way to determine it was to go up there and measure it. I believe
          > that they mentioned transporting a radar on a sled.
          >
          > Ian
          >






          ------------------------------------

          Yahoo! Groups Links
        • Albert Masetti
          One of the ships that traversed the Northwest Passage was an armored (with an ice breaker hull) oil tanker, the Manhattan. Quite successful at operating
          Message 4 of 30 , Jul 1, 2008
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            One of the ships that traversed the Northwest Passage was an "armored"
            (with an "ice breaker" hull) oil tanker, the Manhattan. Quite
            successful at operating with the ice and etc.

            Later on, the Manhattan was sold and renamed.

            The new name for the Manhattan was the Exxon Valdez.

            - Al


            On Jun 30, 2008, at 3:39 PM, Ian L. McQueen wrote:

            > What I have read tells me that it was "warmer" in the arctic in the
            > 40s
            > (maybe 30s) than it is now. Several boats have traversed the Northwest
            > Passage over the years. I doubt that it was wide open, but boats did
            > get
            > through. Maybe googling "St. Roch" will find something, otherwise
            > "northwest
            > passage" is sure to bring something up.
            > As for the ice thickness this year, a couple of British wags said that
            > the only way to determine it was to go up there and measure it. I
            > believe
            > that they mentioned transporting a radar on a sled.
            >
            > Ian
            >
            >
          • bobmagi@att.net
            Al, Can you provide some reference other than from your fertile imagination that The new name for the Manhattan was the Exxon Valdez ? Also provide reference
            Message 5 of 30 , Jul 1, 2008
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              Al,

              Can you provide some reference other than from your fertile imagination that "The new name for the Manhattan was the Exxon Valdez"?

              Also provide reference that "Quite successful at operating with the ice and etc."

              "The Manhattan returned to New York on 10.30.69. She resumed regular service until 1987. She was driven aground at Yosu, South Korea on 07.15.87 during the passage of typhoon "Thelma", refloated on 07.27.87 and sold to Hong Kong interests "as lies". Re-sold to Chinese breakers. Left Yosu in tow 09.01.87 and arrived at breakers yard prior to 09.06.87. (Information courtesy of; Fred Eckley (Army Corp. of Eng) and visseraa.topcities.com) Page update: 07.12.05"
              http://sunshiporg.homestead.com/manhattan.html

              Bob






              -------------- Original message ----------------------
              From: Albert Masetti <almase43@...>
              >
              > One of the ships that traversed the Northwest Passage was an "armored"
              > (with an "ice breaker" hull) oil tanker, the Manhattan. Quite
              > successful at operating with the ice and etc.
              >
              > Later on, the Manhattan was sold and renamed.
              >
              > The new name for the Manhattan was the Exxon Valdez.
              >
              > - Al
              >
              >
              > On Jun 30, 2008, at 3:39 PM, Ian L. McQueen wrote:
              >
              > > What I have read tells me that it was "warmer" in the arctic in the
              > > 40s
              > > (maybe 30s) than it is now. Several boats have traversed the Northwest
              > > Passage over the years. I doubt that it was wide open, but boats did
              > > get
              > > through. Maybe googling "St. Roch" will find something, otherwise
              > > "northwest
              > > passage" is sure to bring something up.
              > > As for the ice thickness this year, a couple of British wags said that
              > > the only way to determine it was to go up there and measure it. I
              > > believe
              > > that they mentioned transporting a radar on a sled.
              > >
              > > Ian
              > >
              > >
              >
            • Bruce Richardson
              Hello Bob, I hope that you are enjoying your trip. I was curious about the Exxon Valdez and did a little search. She was delivered in 1986. After the spill,
              Message 6 of 30 , Jul 1, 2008
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                Hello Bob, I hope that you are enjoying your trip. I was
                curious about the Exxon Valdez and did a little search. She
                was delivered in 1986. After the spill, she was repaired and
                renamed Sea River Mediterranean and later just
                Mediterranean. Al probably just had Mediterranean and
                Manhattan mixed.

                I remember the news about the Manhattan at the time. They
                finally made the passage but found that it really wasn't a
                practical route as I recall.

                Best regards,

                Bruce Richardson
                Houston, Texas
                ________________________________

                From: climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com
                [mailto:climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                bobmagi@...
                Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 12:18 AM
                To: climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [climatechangedebate] Arctic ice




                Al,

                Can you provide some reference other than from your fertile
                imagination that "The new name for the Manhattan was the
                Exxon Valdez"?

                Also provide reference that "Quite successful at operating
                with the ice and etc."

                "The Manhattan returned to New York on 10.30.69. She resumed
                regular service until 1987. She was driven aground at Yosu,
                South Korea on 07.15.87 during the passage of typhoon
                "Thelma", refloated on 07.27.87 and sold to Hong Kong
                interests "as lies". Re-sold to Chinese breakers. Left Yosu
                in tow 09.01.87 and arrived at breakers yard prior to
                09.06.87. (Information courtesy of; Fred Eckley (Army Corp.
                of Eng) and visseraa.topcities.com) Page update: 07.12.05"
                http://sunshiporg.homestead.com/manhattan.html
                <http://sunshiporg.homestead.com/manhattan.html>

                Bob

                -------------- Original message ----------------------
                From: Albert Masetti <almase43@...
                <mailto:almase43%40verizon.net> >
                >
                > One of the ships that traversed the Northwest Passage was
                an "armored"
                > (with an "ice breaker" hull) oil tanker, the Manhattan.
                Quite
                > successful at operating with the ice and etc.
                >
                > Later on, the Manhattan was sold and renamed.
                >
                > The new name for the Manhattan was the Exxon Valdez.
                >
                > - Al
                >
                >
                > On Jun 30, 2008, at 3:39 PM, Ian L. McQueen wrote:
                >
                > > What I have read tells me that it was "warmer" in the
                arctic in the
                > > 40s
                > > (maybe 30s) than it is now. Several boats have traversed
                the Northwest
                > > Passage over the years. I doubt that it was wide open,
                but boats did
                > > get
                > > through. Maybe googling "St. Roch" will find something,
                otherwise
                > > "northwest
                > > passage" is sure to bring something up.
                > > As for the ice thickness this year, a couple of British
                wags said that
                > > the only way to determine it was to go up there and
                measure it. I
                > > believe
                > > that they mentioned transporting a radar on a sled.
                > >
                > > Ian
                > >
                > >
                >
              • Ian L. McQueen
                IIRC, the Manhattan Exxon Valdez story has been circulating for months in an internet Would you believe? type of posting. Ian ... From: Bruce Richardson
                Message 7 of 30 , Jul 2, 2008
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                  IIRC, the Manhattan > Exxon Valdez story has been circulating for months
                  in an internet "Would you believe?" type of posting.

                  Ian

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Bruce Richardson" <cbrtxus@...>
                  To: <climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 2:59 AM
                  Subject: RE: [climatechangedebate] Arctic ice



                  Hello Bob, I hope that you are enjoying your trip. I was
                  curious about the Exxon Valdez and did a little search. She
                  was delivered in 1986. After the spill, she was repaired and
                  renamed Sea River Mediterranean and later just
                  Mediterranean. Al probably just had Mediterranean and
                  Manhattan mixed.

                  I remember the news about the Manhattan at the time. They
                  finally made the passage but found that it really wasn't a
                  practical route as I recall.

                  Best regards,

                  Bruce Richardson
                  Houston, Texas
                  ________________________________

                  From: climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com
                  [mailto:climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                  bobmagi@...
                  Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 12:18 AM
                  To: climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [climatechangedebate] Arctic ice




                  Al,

                  Can you provide some reference other than from your fertile
                  imagination that "The new name for the Manhattan was the
                  Exxon Valdez"?

                  Also provide reference that "Quite successful at operating
                  with the ice and etc."

                  "The Manhattan returned to New York on 10.30.69. She resumed
                  regular service until 1987. She was driven aground at Yosu,
                  South Korea on 07.15.87 during the passage of typhoon
                  "Thelma", refloated on 07.27.87 and sold to Hong Kong
                  interests "as lies". Re-sold to Chinese breakers. Left Yosu
                  in tow 09.01.87 and arrived at breakers yard prior to
                  09.06.87. (Information courtesy of; Fred Eckley (Army Corp.
                  of Eng) and visseraa.topcities.com) Page update: 07.12.05"
                  http://sunshiporg.homestead.com/manhattan.html
                  <http://sunshiporg.homestead.com/manhattan.html>

                  Bob

                  -------------- Original message ----------------------
                  From: Albert Masetti <almase43@...
                  <mailto:almase43%40verizon.net> >
                  >
                  > One of the ships that traversed the Northwest Passage was
                  an "armored"
                  > (with an "ice breaker" hull) oil tanker, the Manhattan.
                  Quite
                  > successful at operating with the ice and etc.
                  >
                  > Later on, the Manhattan was sold and renamed.
                  >
                  > The new name for the Manhattan was the Exxon Valdez.
                  >
                  > - Al
                  >
                  >
                  > On Jun 30, 2008, at 3:39 PM, Ian L. McQueen wrote:
                  >
                  > > What I have read tells me that it was "warmer" in the
                  arctic in the
                  > > 40s
                  > > (maybe 30s) than it is now. Several boats have traversed
                  the Northwest
                  > > Passage over the years. I doubt that it was wide open,
                  but boats did
                  > > get
                  > > through. Maybe googling "St. Roch" will find something,
                  otherwise
                  > > "northwest
                  > > passage" is sure to bring something up.
                  > > As for the ice thickness this year, a couple of British
                  wags said that
                  > > the only way to determine it was to go up there and
                  measure it. I
                  > > believe
                  > > that they mentioned transporting a radar on a sled.
                  > >
                  > > Ian
                  > >
                  > >
                  >



                  ------------------------------------

                  Yahoo! Groups Links
                • Bruce Richardson
                  Ian, That would explain it then. Now that you mentioned it, I think that I might have seen that one come through. Most of such hoaxes have a similar Please
                  Message 8 of 30 , Jul 2, 2008
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                    Ian, That would explain it then. Now that you mentioned it,
                    I think that I might have seen that one come through. Most
                    of such hoaxes have a similar "Please forward" message so I
                    probably saw that and deleted it. Thanks.

                    Best regards,

                    Bruce Richardson
                    Houston, Texas

                    ________________________________

                    From: climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com
                    [mailto:climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                    Ian L. McQueen
                    Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 6:50 AM
                    To: climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [climatechangedebate] Arctic ice



                    IIRC, the Manhattan > Exxon Valdez story has been
                    circulating for months
                    in an internet "Would you believe?" type of posting.

                    Ian

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Bruce Richardson" <cbrtxus@...
                    <mailto:cbrtxus%40yahoo.com> >
                    To: <climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com
                    <mailto:climatechangedebate%40yahoogroups.com> >
                    Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 2:59 AM
                    Subject: RE: [climatechangedebate] Arctic ice

                    Hello Bob, I hope that you are enjoying your trip. I was
                    curious about the Exxon Valdez and did a little search. She
                    was delivered in 1986. After the spill, she was repaired and
                    renamed Sea River Mediterranean and later just
                    Mediterranean. Al probably just had Mediterranean and
                    Manhattan mixed.

                    I remember the news about the Manhattan at the time. They
                    finally made the passage but found that it really wasn't a
                    practical route as I recall.

                    Best regards,

                    Bruce Richardson
                    Houston, Texas
                    ________________________________

                    From: climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com
                    <mailto:climatechangedebate%40yahoogroups.com>
                    [mailto:climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com
                    <mailto:climatechangedebate%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf
                    Of
                    bobmagi@... <mailto:bobmagi%40att.net>
                    Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 12:18 AM
                    To: climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com
                    <mailto:climatechangedebate%40yahoogroups.com>
                    Subject: Re: [climatechangedebate] Arctic ice

                    Al,

                    Can you provide some reference other than from your fertile
                    imagination that "The new name for the Manhattan was the
                    Exxon Valdez"?

                    Also provide reference that "Quite successful at operating
                    with the ice and etc."

                    "The Manhattan returned to New York on 10.30.69. She resumed
                    regular service until 1987. She was driven aground at Yosu,
                    South Korea on 07.15.87 during the passage of typhoon
                    "Thelma", refloated on 07.27.87 and sold to Hong Kong
                    interests "as lies". Re-sold to Chinese breakers. Left Yosu
                    in tow 09.01.87 and arrived at breakers yard prior to
                    09.06.87. (Information courtesy of; Fred Eckley (Army Corp.
                    of Eng) and visseraa.topcities.com) Page update: 07.12.05"
                    http://sunshiporg.homestead.com/manhattan.html
                    <http://sunshiporg.homestead.com/manhattan.html>
                    <http://sunshiporg.homestead.com/manhattan.html
                    <http://sunshiporg.homestead.com/manhattan.html> >

                    Bob

                    -------------- Original message ----------------------
                    From: Albert Masetti <almase43@...
                    <mailto:almase43%40verizon.net>
                    <mailto:almase43%40verizon.net> >
                    >
                    > One of the ships that traversed the Northwest Passage was
                    an "armored"
                    > (with an "ice breaker" hull) oil tanker, the Manhattan.
                    Quite
                    > successful at operating with the ice and etc.
                    >
                    > Later on, the Manhattan was sold and renamed.
                    >
                    > The new name for the Manhattan was the Exxon Valdez.
                    >
                    > - Al
                    >
                    >
                    > On Jun 30, 2008, at 3:39 PM, Ian L. McQueen wrote:
                    >
                    > > What I have read tells me that it was "warmer" in the
                    arctic in the
                    > > 40s
                    > > (maybe 30s) than it is now. Several boats have traversed
                    the Northwest
                    > > Passage over the years. I doubt that it was wide open,
                    but boats did
                    > > get
                    > > through. Maybe googling "St. Roch" will find something,
                    otherwise
                    > > "northwest
                    > > passage" is sure to bring something up.
                    > > As for the ice thickness this year, a couple of British
                    wags said that
                    > > the only way to determine it was to go up there and
                    measure it. I
                    > > believe
                    > > that they mentioned transporting a radar on a sled.
                    > >
                    > > Ian
                    > >
                    > >
                    >

                    ------------------------------------

                    Yahoo! Groups Links
                  • Ian L. McQueen
                    Hi Bob- If you have the time I think that you would find the article and comments here of interest:
                    Message 9 of 30 , Feb 9, 2010
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                      Hi Bob-

                      If you have the time I think that you would find the article and
                      comments here of interest:
                      http://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/02/09/prediction-arctic-ice-will-continue-to-recover-this-summer/#more-16248

                      Ian
                    • Ian L. McQueen
                      The amount of arctic ice is a little more than in 2007. That year, a lot of arctic ice was simply blown out of the arctic and down through the Fram Strait. Do
                      Message 10 of 30 , Sep 6, 2011
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                        The amount of arctic ice is a little more than in 2007. That year, a lot
                        of arctic ice was simply blown out of the arctic and down through the Fram
                        Strait. Do we know if wind blowing ice was as much a factor this year?

                        Ian
                      • Robert Maginnis
                        Ian,   Do you suppose the wind blows harder down Fram Strait each year?       http://tamino.wordpress.com/2011/09/01/arctic-sea-ice-death-spiral-continues/
                        Message 11 of 30 , Sep 6, 2011
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                          Ian,
                           
                          Do you suppose the wind blows harder down Fram Strait each year?
                           
                           

                           
                          http://tamino.wordpress.com/2011/09/01/arctic-sea-ice-death-spiral-continues/
                           
                          bob


                          --- On Tue, 9/6/11, Ian L. McQueen <imcqueen@...> wrote:

                          > From: Ian L. McQueen <imcqueen@...>
                          > Subject: [climatechangedebate] Arctic ice
                          > To: "CCD CLIMATE CHANGE DEBATE" <climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com>, climatesceptics@yahoogroups.com
                          > Date: Tuesday, September 6, 2011, 7:28 PM
                          >     The amount of arctic
                          > ice is a little more than in 2007. That year, a lot
                          > of arctic ice was simply blown out of the arctic and down
                          > through the Fram
                          > Strait. Do we know if wind blowing ice was as much a factor
                          > this year?
                          >
                          >         Ian
                          >
                          >
                        • Ian L. McQueen
                          Bob- Yes, it quite possible that the wind has become stronger by the year. It is a known fact that wind directions have changed, varying between Rossby
                          Message 12 of 30 , Sep 6, 2011
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                            Bob-

                            Yes, it <is> quite possible that the wind has become stronger by the
                            year. It is a known fact that wind directions have changed, varying between
                            Rossby waves and circumpolar. I would not rule out stronger winds of the
                            wrong direction, combined with "warmer" water flowing into the Arctic ocean.
                            How much do we really know about what is going on up there.

                            Ian


                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Robert Maginnis" <bobmagi@...>
                            To: <climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2011 12:22 AM
                            Subject: Re: [climatechangedebate] Arctic ice


                            Ian,

                            Do you suppose the wind blows harder down Fram Strait each year?








                            http://tamino.wordpress.com/2011/09/01/arctic-sea-ice-death-spiral-continues/

                            bob


                            --- On Tue, 9/6/11, Ian L. McQueen <imcqueen@...> wrote:

                            > From: Ian L. McQueen <imcqueen@...>
                            > Subject: [climatechangedebate] Arctic ice
                            > To: "CCD CLIMATE CHANGE DEBATE" <climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com>,
                            > climatesceptics@yahoogroups.com
                            > Date: Tuesday, September 6, 2011, 7:28 PM
                            > The amount of arctic
                            > ice is a little more than in 2007. That year, a lot
                            > of arctic ice was simply blown out of the arctic and down
                            > through the Fram
                            > Strait. Do we know if wind blowing ice was as much a factor
                            > this year?
                            >
                            > Ian
                            >
                            >


                            --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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                            15:44:00
                          • Dick Kahle
                            An interesting observation is that this low ice extent/area is happening after the US has had two colder than normal winters. Dick
                            Message 13 of 30 , Sep 6, 2011
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                              An interesting observation is that this low ice extent/area is happening after the US has had two colder than normal winters.

                              Dick

                              On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 10:39 PM, Ian L. McQueen <imcqueen@...> wrote:
                               

                              Bob-

                              Yes, it <is> quite possible that the wind has become stronger by the
                              year. It is a known fact that wind directions have changed, varying between
                              Rossby waves and circumpolar. I would not rule out stronger winds of the
                              wrong direction, combined with "warmer" water flowing into the Arctic ocean.
                              How much do we really know about what is going on up there.

                              Ian



                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "Robert Maginnis" <bobmagi@...>
                              To: <climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2011 12:22 AM
                              Subject: Re: [climatechangedebate] Arctic ice

                              Ian,

                              Do you suppose the wind blows harder down Fram Strait each year?

                              http://tamino.wordpress.com/2011/09/01/arctic-sea-ice-death-spiral-continues/

                              bob

                              --- On Tue, 9/6/11, Ian L. McQueen <imcqueen@...> wrote:

                              > From: Ian L. McQueen <imcqueen@...>
                              > Subject: [climatechangedebate] Arctic ice
                              > To: "CCD CLIMATE CHANGE DEBATE" <climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com>,
                              > climatesceptics@yahoogroups.com
                              > Date: Tuesday, September 6, 2011, 7:28 PM
                              > The amount of arctic
                              > ice is a little more than in 2007. That year, a lot
                              > of arctic ice was simply blown out of the arctic and down
                              > through the Fram
                              > Strait. Do we know if wind blowing ice was as much a factor
                              > this year?
                              >
                              > Ian
                              >
                              >

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                            • Robert Maginnis
                              This article seems to sum up the latest controversey: Andrew Dessler s New Paper Debunks Both Roy Spencer And Richard Lindzen Posted on 6 September 2011 by Rob
                              Message 14 of 30 , Sep 7, 2011
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                                This article seems to sum up the latest controversey:

                                Andrew Dessler's New Paper Debunks Both Roy Spencer And Richard Lindzen

                                Posted on 6 September 2011 by Rob Painting & dana1981

                                Andrew Dessler, a climate scientist at Texas A&M University, has released a scientific paper (Dessler 2011) that looks at the the claims made by two of a small group of "skeptic" climate scientists who regular SkS readers will be familiar with: Roy Spencer and Richard Lindzen.  Both were co-authors on peer-reviewed papers released this year (Spencer & Braswell [2011] & Lindzen & Choi [2011]) which, once again, sought to overturn the orthodox view of climate.  Dessler (2011) finds that the conclusions of these two papers are unsupported by observational data. 

                                Spencer & Lindzen: Tipping reality on its head

                                The Spencer/Braswell and Lindzen/Choi papers have an unusual take on global warming: rather than warming causing a change in cloud cover (i.e. acting as a feedback to either increase or reduce warming), both papers claim that it's the other way around - changes in cloud cover cause changes in the surface temperature (in the present case, warming).

                                Spencer/Braswell and Lindzen/Choi look at the relationship between changes in ocean heat, cloud cover (directly affecting the amount of heat lost to space), and global surface temperature over recent decades. The idea is, if the change in surface temperature over that period is affected by changes in cloud cover, but changes of the surface temperature associated with the ocean warming are small, then changes in cloud cover must be driving the present global warming.

                                Dessler: Putting reality back on its feet  

                                Putting aside the problems with their energy budget equation, Dessler looks at the values Spencer/Braswell and Lindzen/Choi use for their calculations.  Rather than examine the data for two of the terms in their equation (heating of the climate by the ocean & change in cloud cover allowing heat to escape to space), Lindzen and Spencer approximate them from other observations, and their results rely heavily on assumptions about the size of these values.

                                Rather than rely on assumptions, Dessler uses other observational data (such as surface temperature measurements and ARGO ocean temperature) to estimate and corroborate these values.  Dessler finds that, in contrast to Spencer/Braswell and Lindzen/Choi, the change in cloud cover is far too small to explain the short-term changes in surface temperature, explaining only a few percent of surface temperature change.  In fact, the heating of the climate system through ocean heat transport is approximately 20 times larger than the change in top of the atmosphere (TOA) energy flux due to cloud cover changes.  Lindzen and Choi assumed the ratio was close to 2, while Spencer and Braswell assumed it was close to 0.5.

                                Dessler finds that the short-term changes in surface temperature are related to exchanges of heat to and from the ocean - which tallies well with what we know about El Niño and La Niña, and their atmospheric warming/cooling cycles.

                                Spencer & Braswell: A classic example of cherrypicking

                                In order to claim that the climate models differ from observations when comparing the surface temperature and energy leaving the Earth at TOA with the lead-lag between them, Spencer/Braswell cherrypick  observational data and model results that show the greatest mismatch (Figure 1)...................................snip

                                http://www.skepticalscience.com/Dessler-2011-Debunks-Roy-Spencer-And-Richard-Lindzen.html

                                 

                                 

                                Bob

                              • C. Bruce Richardson Jr.
                                Dick, the UK has had the coolest summer in 18 years. http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/31/uk-summer-coolest-18-years I wish that we could export some of
                                Message 15 of 30 , Sep 7, 2011
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                                  Dick, the UK has had the coolest summer in 18 years. 

                                  http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/31/uk-summer-coolest-18-years


                                  I wish that we could export some of our Texas heat. However, the last several days have been pleasant in Houston . This morning was in the high 50’s. I suspect that we can thank Lee (tropical storm) for this early taste of Autumn. We sure do need rain though. We have water restrictions in Houston right now. I have been using my well to keep seven of my neighboring yards alive.  The restrictions don’t apply to wells of course.     

                                  Bruce

                                   


                                  From: climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com [mailto:climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dick Kahle
                                  Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 10:47 PM
                                  To: climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [climatechangedebate] Arctic ice

                                   

                                   

                                  An interesting observation is that this low ice extent/area is happening after the US has had two colder than normal winters.

                                  Dick

                                  On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 10:39 PM, Ian L. McQueen <imcqueen@...> wrote:

                                   

                                  Bob-

                                  Yes, it <is> quite possible that the wind has become stronger by the
                                  year. It is a known fact that wind directions have changed, varying between
                                  Rossby waves and circumpolar. I would not rule out stronger winds of the
                                  wrong direction, combined with "warmer" water flowing into the Arctic ocean .
                                  How much do we really know about what is going on up there.

                                  Ian



                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: "Robert Maginnis" <bobmagi@...>
                                  To: <climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2011 12:22 AM
                                  Subject: Re: [climatechangedebate] Arctic ice

                                  Ian,

                                  Do you suppose the wind blows harder down Fram Strait each year?

                                  http://tamino.wordpress.com/2011/09/01/arctic-sea-ice-death-spiral-continues/

                                  bob

                                  --- On Tue, 9/6/11, Ian L. McQueen <imcqueen@...> wrote:

                                  > From: Ian L. McQueen <imcqueen@...>
                                  > Subject: [climatechangedebate] Arctic ice
                                  > To: "CCD CLIMATE CHANGE DEBATE" <climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com>,
                                  > climatesceptics@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Date: Tuesday, September 6, 2011, 7:28 PM
                                  > The amount of arctic
                                  > ice is a little more than in 2007. That year, a lot
                                  > of arctic ice was simply blown out of the arctic and down
                                  > through the Fram
                                  > Strait. Do we know if wind blowing ice was as much a factor
                                  > this year?
                                  >
                                  > Ian
                                  >
                                  >

                                  ----------------------------------------------------------

                                  No virus found in this incoming message.
                                  Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                  Version: 9.0.901 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3881 - Release Date: 09/06/11
                                  15:44:00

                                   

                                • Adrian Godfrey
                                  I suggest you read this as well in addition to everything on WWUT.
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Sep 7, 2011
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                                    I suggest you read this as well in addition to everything on WWUT.

                                    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100103350/obscure-editor-resigns-from-minor-journal-why-you-should-care/

                                    Remember Climategate:
                                    --cut here----

                                    That's Kevin Trenberth as in the hardcore Alarmist scientist who starred in this infamous Climategate email:

                                    I can't see either of these papers being in the next IPPC report. Kevin and I will keep them out somehow—even if we have to redefine what the peer-review literature is!
                                    ---cut here---

                                    Adrian



                                    Wednesday, September 7, 2011, 4:34:46 PM, you wrote:

                                    > This article seems to sum up the latest controversey:
                                    > Andrew Dessler's New Paper Debunks Both Roy Spencer And Richard Lindzen
                                    > Posted on 6 September 2011 by Rob Painting & dana1981
                                    > Andrew Dessler, a climate scientist at Texas A&M University, has
                                    > released a scientific paper (Dessler 2011) that looks at the the
                                    > claims made by two of a small group of "skeptic" climate scientists
                                    > who regular SkS readers will be familiar with: Roy Spencer and
                                    > Richard Lindzen. Both were co-authors on peer-reviewed papers
                                    > released this year (Spencer & Braswell [2011] & Lindzen & Choi
                                    > [2011]) which, once again, sought to overturn the orthodox view of
                                    > climate. Dessler (2011) finds that the conclusions of these two
                                    > papers are unsupported by observational data.
                                    > Spencer & Lindzen: Tipping reality on its head
                                    > The Spencer/Braswell and Lindzen/Choi papers have an unusual take
                                    > on global warming: rather than warming causing a change in cloud
                                    > cover (i.e. acting as a feedback to either increase or reduce
                                    > warming), both papers claim that it's the other way around - changes
                                    > in cloud cover cause changes in the surface temperature (in the present case, warming).
                                    > Spencer/Braswell and Lindzen/Choi look at the relationship between
                                    > changes in ocean heat, cloud cover (directly affecting the amount of
                                    > heat lost to space), and global surface temperature over recent
                                    > decades. The idea is, if the change in surface temperature over that
                                    > period is affected by changes in cloud cover, but changes of the
                                    > surface temperature associated with the ocean warming are small,
                                    > then changes in cloud cover must be driving the present global warming.
                                    > Dessler: Putting reality back on its feet
                                    > Putting aside the problems with their energy budget equation,
                                    > Dessler looks at the values Spencer/Braswell and Lindzen/Choi use
                                    > for their calculations. Rather than examine the data for two of the
                                    > terms in their equation (heating of the climate by the ocean &
                                    > change in cloud cover allowing heat to escape to space), Lindzen and
                                    > Spencer approximate them from other observations, and their results
                                    > rely heavily on assumptions about the size of these values.
                                    > Rather than rely on assumptions, Dessler uses other observational
                                    > data (such as surface temperature measurements and ARGO ocean
                                    > temperature) to estimate and corroborate these values. Dessler
                                    > finds that, in contrast to Spencer/Braswell and Lindzen/Choi, the
                                    > change in cloud cover is far too small to explain the short-term
                                    > changes in surface temperature, explaining only a few percent of
                                    > surface temperature change. In fact, the heating of the climate
                                    > system through ocean heat transport is approximately 20 times larger
                                    > than the change in top of the atmosphere (TOA) energy flux due to
                                    > cloud cover changes. Lindzen and Choi assumed the ratio was close
                                    > to 2, while Spencer and Braswell assumed it was close to 0.5.
                                    > Dessler finds that the short-term changes in surface temperature
                                    > are related to exchanges of heat to and from the ocean - which
                                    > tallies well with what we know about El Niño and La Niña, and their
                                    > atmospheric warming/cooling cycles.
                                    > Spencer & Braswell: A classic example of cherrypicking
                                    > In order to claim that the climate models differ from observations
                                    > when comparing the surface temperature and energy leaving the Earth
                                    > at TOA with the lead-lag between them, Spencer/Braswell cherrypick
                                    > observational data and model results that show the greatest mismatch
                                    > (Figure 1)...................................snip
                                    > http://www.skepticalscience.com/Dessler-2011-Debunks-Roy-Spencer-And-Richard-Lindzen.html
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Bob



                                    --
                                    Best regards,
                                    Adrian mailto:lists@...
                                  • Calvin Wolff
                                    It seems to me that cloud cover would have little effect on infrared properties of atmosphere… water as vapor or water as liquid … IR absorption should be
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Sep 7, 2011
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                                      It seems to me that cloud cover would have little effect on infrared properties of atmosphere… water as vapor or water as liquid … IR absorption should be nearly the same.

                                       

                                      As discussed with the CLOUD/CERN experiments, cloud cover does have an effect on earth albedo, the more clouds, the colder the surface temperature.

                                       

                                      Due to the Tyndall effect and Rayleigh scattering, where scattering of light is inversely proportional to the fourth power of wavelength, clouds have little albedo/scattering effect in the infrared.

                                       

                                      Calvin.

                                       

                                      From: climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com [mailto:climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Robert Maginnis
                                      Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2011 9:35 AM
                                      To: climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: [climatechangedebate] New Paper Debunks Both Roy Spencer And Richard Lindzen

                                       

                                       

                                      This article seems to sum up the latest controversey:

                                      Andrew Dessler's New Paper Debunks Both Roy Spencer And Richard Lindzen

                                      Posted on 6 September 2011 by Rob Painting & dana1981

                                      Andrew Dessler, a climate scientist at Texas A&M University, has released a scientific paper (Dessler 2011) that looks at the the claims made by two of a small group of "skeptic" climate scientists who regular SkS readers will be familiar with: Roy Spencer and Richard Lindzen.  Both were co-authors on peer-reviewed papers released this year (Spencer & Braswell [2011] & Lindzen & Choi [2011]) which, once again, sought to overturn the orthodox view of climate.  Dessler (2011) finds that the conclusions of these two papers are unsupported by observational data. 

                                      Spencer & Lindzen: Tipping reality on its head

                                      The Spencer/Braswell and Lindzen/Choi papers have an unusual take on global warming: rather than warming causing a change in cloud cover (i.e. acting as a feedback to either increase or reduce warming), both papers claim that it's the other way around - changes in cloud cover cause changes in the surface temperature (in the present case, warming).

                                      Spencer/Braswell and Lindzen/Choi look at the relationship between changes in ocean heat, cloud cover (directly affecting the amount of heat lost to space), and global surface temperature over recent decades. The idea is, if the change in surface temperature over that period is affected by changes in cloud cover, but changes of the surface temperature associated with the ocean warming are small, then changes in cloud cover must be driving the present global warming.

                                      Dessler: Putting reality back on its feet  

                                      Putting aside the problems with their energy budget equation, Dessler looks at the values Spencer/Braswell and Lindzen/Choi use for their calculations.  Rather than examine the data for two of the terms in their equation (heating of the climate by the ocean & change in cloud cover allowing heat to escape to space), Lindzen and Spencer approximate them from other observations, and their results rely heavily on assumptions about the size of these values.

                                      Rather than rely on assumptions, Dessler uses other observational data (such as surface temperature measurements and ARGO ocean temperature) to estimate and corroborate these values.  Dessler finds that, in contrast to Spencer/Braswell and Lindzen/Choi, the change in cloud cover is far too small to explain the short-term changes in surface temperature, explaining only a few percent of surface temperature change.  In fact, the heating of the climate system through ocean heat transport is approximately 20 times larger than the change in top of the atmosphere (TOA) energy flux due to cloud cover changes.  Lindzen and Choi assumed the ratio was close to 2, while Spencer and Braswell assumed it was close to 0.5.

                                      Dessler finds that the short-term changes in surface temperature are related to exchanges of heat to and from the ocean - which tallies well with what we know about El Niño and La Niña, and their atmospheric warming/cooling cycles.

                                      Spencer & Braswell: A classic example of cherrypicking

                                      In order to claim that the climate models differ from observations when comparing the surface temperature and energy leaving the Earth at TOA with the lead-lag between them, Spencer/Braswell cherrypick  observational data and model results that show the greatest mismatch (Figure 1)...................................snip

                                      http://www.skepticalscience.com/Dessler-2011-Debunks-Roy-Spencer-And-Richard-Lindzen.html

                                       

                                       

                                      Bob

                                    • Dick Kahle
                                      Bob, I showed you how to find the three papers so we could actually discuss the papers. At that point you cut that thread and started a new thread with
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Sep 7, 2011
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                                        Bob,

                                        I showed you how to find the three papers so we could actually discuss the papers. At that point you cut that thread and started a new thread with virtually the same title but with your favorite summary of the papers. This is worse than responding to a post and snipping parts of the post.

                                        I had expected better from you Bob.

                                        Dick

                                        On Sep 7, 2011 9:34 AM, "Robert Maginnis" <bobmagi@...> wrote:
                                        > This article seems to sum up the latest controversey:
                                        > Andrew Dessler's New Paper Debunks Both Roy Spencer And Richard Lindzen
                                        > Posted on 6 September 2011 by Rob Painting & dana1981
                                        > Andrew Dessler, a climate scientist at Texas A&M University, has released a scientific paper (Dessler 2011) that looks at the the claims made by two of a small group of "skeptic" climate scientists who regular SkS readers will be familiar with: Roy Spencer and Richard Lindzen.  Both were co-authors on peer-reviewed papers released this year (Spencer & Braswell [2011] & Lindzen & Choi [2011]) which, once again, sought to overturn the orthodox view of climate.  Dessler (2011) finds that the conclusions of these two papers are unsupported by observational data. 
                                        > Spencer & Lindzen: Tipping reality on its head
                                        > The Spencer/Braswell and Lindzen/Choi papers have an unusual take on global warming: rather than warming causing a change in cloud cover (i.e. acting as a feedback to either increase or reduce warming), both papers claim that it's the other way around - changes in cloud cover cause changes in the surface temperature (in the present case, warming).
                                        > Spencer/Braswell and Lindzen/Choi look at the relationship between changes in ocean heat, cloud cover (directly affecting the amount of heat lost to space), and global surface temperature over recent decades. The idea is, if the change in surface temperature over that period is affected by changes in cloud cover, but changes of the surface temperature associated with the ocean warming are small, then changes in cloud cover must be driving the present global warming.
                                        > Dessler: Putting reality back on its feet  
                                        > Putting aside the problems with their energy budget equation, Dessler looks at the values Spencer/Braswell and Lindzen/Choi use for their calculations.  Rather than examine the data for two of the terms in their equation (heating of the climate by the ocean & change in cloud cover allowing heat to escape to space), Lindzen and Spencer approximate them from other observations, and their results rely heavily on assumptions about the size of these values.
                                        > Rather than rely on assumptions, Dessler uses other observational data (such as surface temperature measurements and ARGO ocean temperature) to estimate and corroborate these values.  Dessler finds that, in contrast to Spencer/Braswell and Lindzen/Choi, the change in cloud cover is far too small to explain the short-term changes in surface temperature, explaining only a few percent of surface temperature change.  In fact, the heating of the climate system through ocean heat transport is approximately 20 times larger than the change in top of the atmosphere (TOA) energy flux due to cloud cover changes.  Lindzen and Choi assumed the ratio was close to 2, while Spencer and Braswell assumed it was close to 0.5.
                                        > Dessler finds that the short-term changes in surface temperature are related to exchanges of heat to and from the ocean - which tallies well with what we know about El Niño and La Niña, and their atmospheric warming/cooling cycles.
                                        > Spencer & Braswell: A classic example of cherrypicking
                                        > In order to claim that the climate models differ from observations when comparing the surface temperature and energy leaving the Earth at TOA with the lead-lag between them, Spencer/Braswell cherrypick  observational data and model results that show the greatest mismatch (Figure 1)...................................snip
                                        > http://www.skepticalscience.com/Dessler-2011-Debunks-Roy-Spencer-And-Richard-Lindzen.html
                                        >  
                                        >  
                                        > Bob
                                      • Robert Maginnis
                                        Dick wrote:   Bob, I showed you how to find the three papers so we could actually discuss the papers. At that point you cut that thread and started a new
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Sep 7, 2011
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                                          Dick wrote:
                                           
                                          Bob,
                                          I showed you how to find the three papers so we could actually discuss the papers. At that point you cut that thread and started a new thread with virtually the same title but with your favorite summary of the papers.
                                           
                                          Dick, no, I didn't cut the thread, but responded to another subject title created by Ian, which was:
                                           
                                          Does new Paper Debunk Both Roy Spencer
                                           
                                          My response to that, below and I might add that neither you nor Ian has done anything other than direct me to read something at some link, rather than offer relevant quotes like I did
                                           
                                          My previous:
                                           
                                           
                                           
                                          Dick,
                                           
                                          The quote and link I offered had the reason why Dressler disagrees with Spencer.  Niether you nor Ian nor the WUWT link or the first link at WUWT had any discussion of science, just complaints.
                                           
                                          Bob

                                          --- On Wed, 9/7/11, Dick Kahle <dkahle@...> wrote:

                                          From: Dick Kahle <dkahle@...>
                                          Subject: Re: [climatechangedebate] Does new Paper Debunk Both Roy Spencer And Richard Lindzen?
                                          To: climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com
                                          Date: Wednesday, September 7, 2011, 11:08 AM

                                           
                                          Bob,
                                          If you look hard enough you can find the SB & LC papers and a preprint of the Dressler paper. I have read the SB & LC papers. You surely didn't expect the SkS review to be neutral? I can tell you that SkS didn't accurately represent the papers. So what about science do you learn when you won't read peer reviewed papers.
                                          Dick
                                          On Sep 7, 2011 11:40 AM, "Robert Maginnis" <bobmagi@...> wrote:
                                          > Ian,
                                          > I go to wuwt often, and this time there was no science re Dressler, just links.  I clicked on the first link
                                          >  
                                          > http://pielkeclimatesci.wordpress.com/2011/09/06/comments-on-the-dessler-2011-grl-paper-cloud-variations-and-the-earths-energy-budget/
                                          >  
                                          > and found no science either, just complaints that Dressler's paper was published to quickly.  The story I linked has a good explanation which I posted some of.
                                          >  
                                          > BTW, I certainly won't download 6 megabytes of attachments (Ocean acidification)  that you haven't even read.  I chose to offer links, some with brief explanations.
                                          >  
                                          > Bob
                                          >  
                                          >
                                          > --- On Wed, 9/7/11, Ian L. McQueen <imcqueen@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > From: Ian L. McQueen <imcqueen@...>
                                          > Subject: [climatechangedebate] Does new Paper Debunk Both Roy Spencer And Richard Lindzen?
                                          > To: climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Date: Wednesday, September 7, 2011, 9:11 AM
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >  
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Bob-
                                          >
                                          > May I suggest that you get your hands dirty (from your POV) and venture
                                          > into http://wattsupwiththat.com/? The first three articles deal
                                          > specifically with Dessler, et al.
                                          >
                                          > Ian
                                          >
                                          > ----- Original Message -----
                                          > From: "Robert Maginnis" <bobmagi@...>
                                          > To: <climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com>
                                          > Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2011 11:34 AM


                                          --- On Wed, 9/7/11, Dick Kahle <dkahle@...> wrote:

                                          From: Dick Kahle <dkahle@...>
                                          Subject: Re: [climatechangedebate] New Paper Debunks Both Roy Spencer And Richard Lindzen
                                          To: climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com
                                          Date: Wednesday, September 7, 2011, 1:55 PM

                                           
                                          Bob,
                                          I showed you how to find the three papers so we could actually discuss the papers. At that point you cut that thread and started a new thread with virtually the same title but with your favorite summary of the papers. This is worse than responding to a post and snipping parts of the post.
                                          I had expected better from you Bob.
                                          Dick
                                          On Sep 7, 2011 9:34 AM, "Robert Maginnis" <bobmagi@...> wrote:
                                          > This article seems to sum up the latest controversey:
                                          > Andrew Dessler's New Paper Debunks Both Roy Spencer And Richard Lindzen
                                          > Posted on 6 September 2011 by Rob Painting & dana1981
                                          > Andrew Dessler, a climate scientist at Texas A&M University, has released a scientific paper (Dessler 2011) that looks at the the claims made by two of a small group of "skeptic" climate scientists who regular SkS readers will be familiar with: Roy Spencer and Richard Lindzen.  Both were co-authors on peer-reviewed papers released this year (Spencer & Braswell [2011] & Lindzen & Choi [2011]) which, once again, sought to overturn the orthodox view of climate.  Dessler (2011) finds that the conclusions of these two papers are unsupported by observational data. 
                                          > Spencer & Lindzen: Tipping reality on its head
                                          > The Spencer/Braswell and Lindzen/Choi papers have an unusual take on global warming: rather than warming causing a change in cloud cover (i.e. acting as a feedback to either increase or reduce warming), both papers claim that it's the other way around - changes in cloud cover cause changes in the surface temperature (in the present case, warming).
                                          > Spencer/Braswell and Lindzen/Choi look at the relationship between changes in ocean heat, cloud cover (directly affecting the amount of heat lost to space), and global surface temperature over recent decades. The idea is, if the change in surface temperature over that period is affected by changes in cloud cover, but changes of the surface temperature associated with the ocean warming are small, then changes in cloud cover must be driving the present global warming.
                                          > Dessler: Putting reality back on its feet  
                                          > Putting aside the problems with their energy budget equation, Dessler looks at the values Spencer/Braswell and Lindzen/Choi use for their calculations.  Rather than examine the data for two of the terms in their equation (heating of the climate by the ocean & change in cloud cover allowing heat to escape to space), Lindzen and Spencer approximate them from other observations, and their results rely heavily on assumptions about the size of these values.
                                          > Rather than rely on assumptions, Dessler uses other observational data (such as surface temperature measurements and ARGO ocean temperature) to estimate and corroborate these values.  Dessler finds that, in contrast to Spencer/Braswell and Lindzen/Choi, the change in cloud cover is far too small to explain the short-term changes in surface temperature, explaining only a few percent of surface temperature change.  In fact, the heating of the climate system through ocean heat transport is approximately 20 times larger than the change in top of the atmosphere (TOA) energy flux due to cloud cover changes.  Lindzen and Choi assumed the ratio was close to 2, while Spencer and Braswell assumed it was close to 0.5.
                                          > Dessler finds that the short-term changes in surface temperature are related to exchanges of heat to and from the ocean - which tallies well with what we know about El Niño and La Niña, and their atmospheric warming/cooling cycles.
                                          > Spencer & Braswell: A classic example of cherrypicking
                                          > In order to claim that the climate models differ from observations when comparing the surface temperature and energy leaving the Earth at TOA with the lead-lag between them, Spencer/Braswell cherrypick  observational data and model results that show the greatest mismatch (Figure 1)...................................snip
                                          > http://www.skepticalscience.com/Dessler-2011-Debunks-Roy-Spencer-And-Richard-Lindzen.html
                                          >  
                                          >  
                                          > Bob
                                        • Adrian Godfrey
                                          The relevant quote is this one from a ClimateGate email: I can t see either of these papers being in the next IPPC report. Kevin and I will keep them out
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Sep 7, 2011
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                                            The "relevant quote" is this one from a ClimateGate email:

                                            I can't see either of these papers being in the next IPPC report. Kevin and I will keep them out somehow—even if we have to redefine what the peer-review literature is!



                                            Adrian

                                            Wednesday, September 7, 2011, 11:14:58 PM, you wrote:

                                            > Dick wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Bob,
                                            > I showed you how to find the three papers so we could actually
                                            > discuss the papers. At that point you cut that thread and started a
                                            > new thread with virtually the same title but with your favorite summary of the papers.
                                            >
                                            > Dick, no, I didn't cut the thread, but responded to another subject title created by Ian, which was:
                                            >
                                            > Does new Paper Debunk Both Roy Spencer
                                            >
                                            > My response to that, below and I might add that neither you nor Ian
                                            > has done anything other than direct me to read something at some
                                            > link, rather than offer relevant quotes like I did
                                            >
                                            > My previous:
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Dick,
                                            >
                                            > The quote and link I offered had the reason why Dressler disagrees
                                            > with Spencer. Niether you nor Ian nor the WUWT link or the first
                                            > link at WUWT had any discussion of science, just complaints.
                                            >
                                            > Bob

                                            > --- On Wed, 9/7/11, Dick Kahle <dkahle@...> wrote:


                                            > From: Dick Kahle <dkahle@...>
                                            > Subject: Re: [climatechangedebate] Does new Paper Debunk Both Roy Spencer And Richard Lindzen?
                                            > To: climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com
                                            > Date: Wednesday, September 7, 2011, 11:08 AM


                                            >


                                            > Bob,
                                            > If you look hard enough you can find the SB & LC papers and a
                                            > preprint of the Dressler paper. I have read the SB & LC papers. You
                                            > surely didn't expect the SkS review to be neutral? I can tell you
                                            > that SkS didn't accurately represent the papers. So what about
                                            > science do you learn when you won't read peer reviewed papers.
                                            > Dick
                                            > On Sep 7, 2011 11:40 AM, "Robert Maginnis" <bobmagi@...> wrote:
                                            >> Ian,
                                            >> I go to wuwt often, and this time there was no science re Dressler, just links. I clicked on the first link
                                            >>
                                            >> http://pielkeclimatesci.wordpress.com/2011/09/06/comments-on-the-dessler-2011-grl-paper-cloud-variations-and-the-earths-energy-budget/
                                            >>
                                            >> and found no science either, just complaints that Dressler's paper was published to quickly. The story I linked has a good explanation which I posted some of.
                                            >>
                                            >> BTW, I certainly won't download 6 megabytes of attachments (Ocean acidification) that you haven't even read. I chose to offer links, some with brief explanations.
                                            >>
                                            >> Bob
                                            >>

                                            >> --- On Wed, 9/7/11, Ian L. McQueen <imcqueen@...> wrote:


                                            >> From: Ian L. McQueen <imcqueen@...>
                                            >> Subject: [climatechangedebate] Does new Paper Debunk Both Roy Spencer And Richard Lindzen?
                                            >> To: climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com
                                            >> Date: Wednesday, September 7, 2011, 9:11 AM


                                            >>



                                            >> Bob-

                                            >> May I suggest that you get your hands dirty (from your POV) and venture
                                            >> into http://wattsupwiththat.com/? The first three articles deal
                                            >> specifically with Dessler, et al.

                                            >> Ian

                                            >> ----- Original Message -----
                                            >> From: "Robert Maginnis" <bobmagi@...>
                                            >> To: <climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com>
                                            >> Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2011 11:34 AM


                                            > --- On Wed, 9/7/11, Dick Kahle <dkahle@...> wrote:


                                            > From: Dick Kahle <dkahle@...>
                                            > Subject: Re: [climatechangedebate] New Paper Debunks Both Roy Spencer And Richard Lindzen
                                            > To: climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com
                                            > Date: Wednesday, September 7, 2011, 1:55 PM


                                            >




                                            > Bob,
                                            > I showed you how to find the three papers so we could actually
                                            > discuss the papers. At that point you cut that thread and started a
                                            > new thread with virtually the same title but with your favorite
                                            > summary of the papers. This is worse than responding to a post and snipping parts of the post.
                                            > I had expected better from you Bob.
                                            > Dick
                                            > On Sep 7, 2011 9:34 AM, "Robert Maginnis" <bobmagi@...> wrote:
                                            >> This article seems to sum up the latest controversey:
                                            >> Andrew Dessler's New Paper Debunks Both Roy Spencer And Richard Lindzen
                                            >> Posted on 6 September 2011 by Rob Painting & dana1981
                                            >> Andrew Dessler, a climate scientist at Texas A&M University, has released a scientific paper (Dessler 2011) that looks at the the claims made by two of a small group of "skeptic" climate scientists who regular SkS readers will be familiar with: Roy Spencer and Richard Lindzen. Both were co-authors on peer-reviewed papers released this year (Spencer & Braswell [2011] & Lindzen & Choi [2011]) which, once again, sought to overturn the orthodox view of climate. Dessler (2011) finds that the conclusions of these two papers are unsupported by observational data.
                                            >> Spencer & Lindzen: Tipping reality on its head
                                            >> The Spencer/Braswell and Lindzen/Choi papers have an unusual take on global warming: rather than warming causing a change in cloud cover (i.e. acting as a feedback to either increase or reduce warming), both papers claim that it's the other way around - changes in cloud cover cause changes in the surface temperature (in the present case, warming).
                                            >> Spencer/Braswell and Lindzen/Choi look at the relationship between changes in ocean heat, cloud cover (directly affecting the amount of heat lost to space), and global surface temperature over recent decades. The idea is, if the change in surface temperature over that period is affected by changes in cloud cover, but changes of the surface temperature associated with the ocean warming are small, then changes in cloud cover must be driving the present global warming.
                                            >> Dessler: Putting reality back on its feet
                                            >> Putting aside the problems with their energy budget equation, Dessler looks at the values Spencer/Braswell and Lindzen/Choi use for their calculations. Rather than examine the data for two of the terms in their equation (heating of the climate by the ocean & change in cloud cover allowing heat to escape to space), Lindzen and Spencer approximate them from other observations, and their results rely heavily on assumptions about the size of these values.
                                            >> Rather than rely on assumptions, Dessler uses other observational data (such as surface temperature measurements and ARGO ocean temperature) to estimate and corroborate these values. Dessler finds that, in contrast to Spencer/Braswell and Lindzen/Choi, the change in cloud cover is far too small to explain the short-term changes in surface temperature, explaining only a few percent of surface temperature change. In fact, the heating of the climate system through ocean heat transport is approximately 20 times larger than the change in top of the atmosphere (TOA) energy flux due to cloud cover changes. Lindzen and Choi assumed the ratio was close to 2, while Spencer and Braswell assumed it was close to 0.5.
                                            >> Dessler finds that the short-term changes in surface temperature are related to exchanges of heat to and from the ocean - which tallies well with what we know about El Niño and La Niña, and their atmospheric warming/cooling cycles.
                                            >> Spencer & Braswell: A classic example of cherrypicking
                                            >> In order to claim that the climate models differ from observations when comparing the surface temperature and energy leaving the Earth at TOA with the lead-lag between them, Spencer/Braswell cherrypick observational data and model results that show the greatest mismatch (Figure 1)...................................snip
                                            >> http://www.skepticalscience.com/Dessler-2011-Debunks-Roy-Spencer-And-Richard-Lindzen.html
                                            >>
                                            >>
                                            >> Bob








                                            --
                                            Best regards,
                                            Adrian mailto:lists@...
                                          • famstaff@hal-pc.org
                                            Speaking of the arctic (and adding the antarctic), Fox has this on their website.
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Sep 8, 2011
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                                              Speaking of the arctic (and adding the antarctic), Fox has this on
                                              their website.
                                              http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011/09/08/giant-king-crabs-threatening-antarctica-scientists-warn/

                                              I guess warmers are right - Faux news. (Especialy the global warming
                                              story link at the bottom of the article.)

                                              Greg



                                              Quoting "C. Bruce Richardson Jr. " <cbrtxus@...>:

                                              > Dick, the UK has had the coolest summer in 18 years.
                                              >
                                              > http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/31/uk-summer-coolest-18-years
                                              >
                                              > I wish that we could export some of our Texas heat. However, the last
                                              > several days have been pleasant in Houston. This morning was in the high
                                              > 50's. I suspect that we can thank Lee (tropical storm) for this early taste
                                              > of Autumn. We sure do need rain though. We have water restrictions in
                                              > Houston right now. I have been using my well to keep seven of my neighboring
                                              > yards alive. The restrictions don't apply to wells of course.
                                              >
                                              > Bruce
                                              >
                                              > _____
                                              >
                                              > From: climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com
                                              > [mailto:climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dick Kahle
                                              > Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 10:47 PM
                                              > To: climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com
                                              > Subject: Re: [climatechangedebate] Arctic ice
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > An interesting observation is that this low ice extent/area is happening
                                              > after the US has had two colder than normal winters.
                                              >
                                              > Dick
                                              > On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 10:39 PM, Ian L. McQueen <imcqueen@...>
                                              > wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Bob-
                                              >
                                              > Yes, it <is> quite possible that the wind has become stronger by the
                                              > year. It is a known fact that wind directions have changed, varying between
                                              > Rossby waves and circumpolar. I would not rule out stronger winds of the
                                              > wrong direction, combined with "warmer" water flowing into the Arctic ocean.
                                              >
                                              > How much do we really know about what is going on up there.
                                              >
                                              > Ian
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > ----- Original Message -----
                                              > From: "Robert Maginnis" <bobmagi@... <mailto:bobmagi%40att.net> >
                                              > To: <climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com
                                              > <mailto:climatechangedebate%40yahoogroups.com> >
                                              > Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2011 12:22 AM
                                              > Subject: Re: [climatechangedebate] Arctic ice
                                              >
                                              > Ian,
                                              >
                                              > Do you suppose the wind blows harder down Fram Strait each year?
                                              >
                                              > http://tamino.wordpress.com/2011/09/01/arctic-sea-ice-death-spiral-continues
                                              > /
                                              >
                                              > bob
                                              >
                                              > --- On Tue, 9/6/11, Ian L. McQueen <imcqueen@...
                                              > <mailto:imcqueen%40nbnet.nb.ca> > wrote:
                                              >
                                              >> From: Ian L. McQueen <imcqueen@... <mailto:imcqueen%40nbnet.nb.ca>
                                              >>
                                              >> Subject: [climatechangedebate] Arctic ice
                                              >> To: "CCD CLIMATE CHANGE DEBATE" <climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com
                                              > <mailto:climatechangedebate%40yahoogroups.com> >,
                                              >> climatesceptics@yahoogroups.com <mailto:climatesceptics%40yahoogroups.com>
                                              >
                                              >> Date: Tuesday, September 6, 2011, 7:28 PM
                                              >> The amount of arctic
                                              >> ice is a little more than in 2007. That year, a lot
                                              >> of arctic ice was simply blown out of the arctic and down
                                              >> through the Fram
                                              >> Strait. Do we know if wind blowing ice was as much a factor
                                              >> this year?
                                              >>
                                              >> Ian
                                              >>
                                              >>
                                              > ----------------------------------------------------------
                                              >
                                              > No virus found in this incoming message.
                                              > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                              > Version: 9.0.901 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3881 - Release Date: 09/06/11
                                              > 15:44:00
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >



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                                            • Albert Masetti
                                              Dick, The data are all still within a narrow range. When folks talk abut low extent, they make it sound like it s all gone. Or that it flatlined at a level
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Sep 8, 2011
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                                                Dick,


                                                The data are all still within a narrow range.   When folks talk abut low extent, they make it sound like it's all gone.  Or that it flatlined at a level of two.

                                                Not so.

                                                Even worse, there are only a dozen years of comparable data.

                                                So, it's all normal.

                                                - Al


                                                On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 11:46 PM, Dick Kahle <dkahle@...> wrote:
                                                 

                                                An interesting observation is that this low ice extent/area is happening after the US has had two colder than normal winters.

                                                Dick



                                                On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 10:39 PM, Ian L. McQueen <imcqueen@...> wrote:
                                                 

                                                Bob-

                                                Yes, it <is> quite possible that the wind has become stronger by the
                                                year. It is a known fact that wind directions have changed, varying between
                                                Rossby waves and circumpolar. I would not rule out stronger winds of the
                                                wrong direction, combined with "warmer" water flowing into the Arctic ocean.
                                                How much do we really know about what is going on up there.

                                                Ian



                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                From: "Robert Maginnis" <bobmagi@...>
                                                To: <climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com>
                                                Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2011 12:22 AM
                                                Subject: Re: [climatechangedebate] Arctic ice

                                                Ian,

                                                Do you suppose the wind blows harder down Fram Strait each year?

                                                http://tamino.wordpress.com/2011/09/01/arctic-sea-ice-death-spiral-continues/

                                                bob

                                                --- On Tue, 9/6/11, Ian L. McQueen <imcqueen@...> wrote:

                                                > From: Ian L. McQueen <imcqueen@...>
                                                > Subject: [climatechangedebate] Arctic ice
                                                > To: "CCD CLIMATE CHANGE DEBATE" <climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com>,
                                                > climatesceptics@yahoogroups.com
                                                > Date: Tuesday, September 6, 2011, 7:28 PM
                                                > The amount of arctic
                                                > ice is a little more than in 2007. That year, a lot
                                                > of arctic ice was simply blown out of the arctic and down
                                                > through the Fram
                                                > Strait. Do we know if wind blowing ice was as much a factor
                                                > this year?
                                                >
                                                > Ian
                                                >
                                                >

                                                ----------------------------------------------------------

                                                No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                Version: 9.0.901 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3881 - Release Date: 09/06/11
                                                15:44:00



                                              • Robert Maginnis
                                                Al,   Almost 3 dozen years:   Figure 3. Monthly August ice extent for 1979 to 2011 shows a decline of 9.3% per decade. This chart is probably accutate to
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Sep 8, 2011
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                                                  Al,
                                                   
                                                  Almost 3 dozen years:
                                                   
                                                  monthly average data graph Figure 3. Monthly August ice extent for 1979 to 2011 shows a decline of 9.3% per decade.

                                                  This chart is probably accutate to only 60 years back:
                                                   
                                                   
                                                  but shows losses starting about 1950.
                                                   
                                                  Bob


                                                  --- On Thu, 9/8/11, Albert Masetti <almasetti@...> wrote:

                                                  From: Albert Masetti <almasetti@...>
                                                  Subject: Re: [climatechangedebate] Arctic ice
                                                  To: climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Date: Thursday, September 8, 2011, 6:27 PM

                                                   
                                                  Dick,


                                                  The data are all still within a narrow range.   When folks talk abut low extent, they make it sound like it's all gone.  Or that it flatlined at a level of two.

                                                  Not so.

                                                  Even worse, there are only a dozen years of comparable data.

                                                  So, it's all normal.

                                                  - Al


                                                  On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 11:46 PM, Dick Kahle <dkahle@...> wrote:
                                                   
                                                  An interesting observation is that this low ice extent/area is happening after the US has had two colder than normal winters.

                                                  Dick


                                                  On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 10:39 PM, Ian L. McQueen <imcqueen@...> wrote:
                                                   
                                                  Bob-

                                                  Yes, it <is> quite possible that the wind has become stronger by the
                                                  year. It is a known fact that wind directions have changed, varying between
                                                  Rossby waves and circumpolar. I would not rule out stronger winds of the
                                                  wrong direction, combined with "warmer" water flowing into the Arctic ocean.
                                                  How much do we really know about what is going on up there.

                                                  Ian


                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                  From: "Robert Maginnis" <bobmagi@...>
                                                  To: <climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com>
                                                  Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2011 12:22 AM
                                                  Subject: Re: [climatechangedebate] Arctic ice

                                                  Ian,

                                                  Do you suppose the wind blows harder down Fram Strait each year?

                                                  http://tamino.wordpress.com/2011/09/01/arctic-sea-ice-death-spiral-continues/

                                                  bob

                                                  --- On Tue, 9/6/11, Ian L. McQueen <imcqueen@...> wrote:

                                                  > From: Ian L. McQueen <imcqueen@...>
                                                  > Subject: [climatechangedebate] Arctic ice
                                                  > To: "CCD CLIMATE CHANGE DEBATE" <climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com>,
                                                  > climatesceptics@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > Date: Tuesday, September 6, 2011, 7:28 PM
                                                  > The amount of arctic
                                                  > ice is a little more than in 2007. That year, a lot
                                                  > of arctic ice was simply blown out of the arctic and down
                                                  > through the Fram
                                                  > Strait. Do we know if wind blowing ice was as much a factor
                                                  > this year?
                                                  >
                                                  > Ian
                                                  >
                                                  >

                                                  ----------------------------------------------------------

                                                  No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                  Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                  Version: 9.0.901 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3881 - Release Date: 09/06/11
                                                  15:44:00



                                                • Dick Kahle
                                                  Al, My point was not about the level relative, which I am well aware of, but to get people to think about the fact that maybe there is more warming in the
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Sep 8, 2011
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                                                    Al,

                                                    My point was not about the level relative, which I am well aware of, but to get people to think about the fact that maybe there is more warming in the Arctic in partially due to the fact that the colder air moved further south due to meridional circulation and can return to the Arctic just as easily.

                                                    Dick

                                                    On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 8:27 PM, Albert Masetti <almasetti@...> wrote:
                                                     

                                                    Dick,



                                                    The data are all still within a narrow range.   When folks talk abut low extent, they make it sound like it's all gone.  Or that it flatlined at a level of two.

                                                    Not so.

                                                    Even worse, there are only a dozen years of comparable data.

                                                    So, it's all normal.

                                                    - Al


                                                    On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 11:46 PM, Dick Kahle <dkahle@...> wrote:
                                                     

                                                    An interesting observation is that this low ice extent/area is happening after the US has had two colder than normal winters.

                                                    Dick



                                                    On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 10:39 PM, Ian L. McQueen <imcqueen@...> wrote:
                                                     

                                                    Bob-

                                                    Yes, it <is> quite possible that the wind has become stronger by the
                                                    year. It is a known fact that wind directions have changed, varying between
                                                    Rossby waves and circumpolar. I would not rule out stronger winds of the
                                                    wrong direction, combined with "warmer" water flowing into the Arctic ocean.
                                                    How much do we really know about what is going on up there.

                                                    Ian



                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                    From: "Robert Maginnis" <bobmagi@...>
                                                    To: <climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com>
                                                    Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2011 12:22 AM
                                                    Subject: Re: [climatechangedebate] Arctic ice

                                                    Ian,

                                                    Do you suppose the wind blows harder down Fram Strait each year?

                                                    http://tamino.wordpress.com/2011/09/01/arctic-sea-ice-death-spiral-continues/

                                                    bob

                                                    --- On Tue, 9/6/11, Ian L. McQueen <imcqueen@...> wrote:

                                                    > From: Ian L. McQueen <imcqueen@...>
                                                    > Subject: [climatechangedebate] Arctic ice
                                                    > To: "CCD CLIMATE CHANGE DEBATE" <climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com>,
                                                    > climatesceptics@yahoogroups.com
                                                    > Date: Tuesday, September 6, 2011, 7:28 PM
                                                    > The amount of arctic
                                                    > ice is a little more than in 2007. That year, a lot
                                                    > of arctic ice was simply blown out of the arctic and down
                                                    > through the Fram
                                                    > Strait. Do we know if wind blowing ice was as much a factor
                                                    > this year?
                                                    >
                                                    > Ian
                                                    >
                                                    >

                                                    ----------------------------------------------------------

                                                    No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                    Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                    Version: 9.0.901 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3881 - Release Date: 09/06/11
                                                    15:44:00




                                                  • Calvin Wolff
                                                    Good point Dick. Is what you re saying similar to more southward movement of the Jet Stream? Calvin. From: climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Sep 8, 2011
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                                                      Good point Dick.  Is what you’re saying similar to more southward movement of the Jet Stream?

                                                       

                                                      Calvin.

                                                       

                                                      From: climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com [mailto:climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dick Kahle
                                                      Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2011 10:46 PM
                                                      To: climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com
                                                      Subject: Re: [climatechangedebate] Arctic ice

                                                       

                                                       

                                                      Al,

                                                      My point was not about the level relative, which I am well aware of, but to get people to think about the fact that maybe there is more warming in the Arctic in partially due to the fact that the colder air moved further south due to meridional circulation and can return to the Arctic just as easily.

                                                      Dick

                                                      On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 8:27 PM, Albert Masetti <almasetti@...> wrote:

                                                       

                                                      Dick,

                                                       

                                                       

                                                      The data are all still within a narrow range.   When folks talk abut low extent, they make it sound like it's all gone.  Or that it flatlined at a level of two.

                                                       

                                                      Not so.

                                                       

                                                      Even worse, there are only a dozen years of comparable data.

                                                       

                                                      So, it's all normal.

                                                      - Al

                                                       

                                                       

                                                      On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 11:46 PM, Dick Kahle <dkahle@...> wrote:

                                                       

                                                      An interesting observation is that this low ice extent/area is happening after the US has had two colder than normal winters.

                                                      Dick

                                                       

                                                      On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 10:39 PM, Ian L. McQueen <imcqueen@...> wrote:

                                                       

                                                      Bob-

                                                      Yes, it <is> quite possible that the wind has become stronger by the
                                                      year. It is a known fact that wind directions have changed, varying between
                                                      Rossby waves and circumpolar. I would not rule out stronger winds of the
                                                      wrong direction, combined with "warmer" water flowing into the Arctic ocean.
                                                      How much do we really know about what is going on up there.

                                                      Ian



                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                      From: "Robert Maginnis" <bobmagi@...>
                                                      To: <climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com>
                                                      Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2011 12:22 AM
                                                      Subject: Re: [climatechangedebate] Arctic ice

                                                      Ian,

                                                      Do you suppose the wind blows harder down Fram Strait each year?

                                                      http://tamino.wordpress.com/2011/09/01/arctic-sea-ice-death-spiral-continues/

                                                      bob

                                                      --- On Tue, 9/6/11, Ian L. McQueen <imcqueen@...> wrote:

                                                      > From: Ian L. McQueen <imcqueen@...>
                                                      > Subject: [climatechangedebate] Arctic ice
                                                      > To: "CCD CLIMATE CHANGE DEBATE" <climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com>,
                                                      > climatesceptics@yahoogroups.com
                                                      > Date: Tuesday, September 6, 2011, 7:28 PM
                                                      > The amount of arctic
                                                      > ice is a little more than in 2007. That year, a lot
                                                      > of arctic ice was simply blown out of the arctic and down
                                                      > through the Fram
                                                      > Strait. Do we know if wind blowing ice was as much a factor
                                                      > this year?
                                                      >
                                                      > Ian
                                                      >
                                                      >

                                                      ----------------------------------------------------------

                                                      No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                      Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                      Version: 9.0.901 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3881 - Release Date: 09/06/11
                                                      15:44:00

                                                       

                                                       

                                                       

                                                    • Robert Maginnis
                                                      Calvin,   If there has been more meridional circulation, it should be easy to find from records, but a warming Arctic is predicted by AGW theory, and here
                                                      Message 26 of 30 , Sep 8, 2011
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                                                        Calvin,
                                                         
                                                        If there has been more 'meridional circulation,' it should be easy to find from records, but a warming Arctic is predicted by AGW theory, and here is more evidence, lowest ice volume yet:
                                                         
                                                        "The Polar Science Center at the University of Washington has updated its calculations of Arctic sea ice volume.  As usual, Neven has the best graphs of the PSC’s data at his Arctic Sea Ice Blog, a must-read for cryosphere-junkies.
                                                        Sea_ice_VOL_min_to_date
                                                        The PSC recently improved their PIOMAS model, which combines the best observational data with their own analysis.  They are publishing their findings in the Journal of Geophysical Research, “Uncertainty in Modeled Arctic Sea Ice Volume”:
                                                        … the 2010 September ice volume anomaly did in fact exceed the previous 2007 minimum by a large enough margin to establish a statistically significant new record.
                                                        And now that 2010 record is broken — and the melt season isn’t over yet.
                                                         
                                                        Al, do you think dropping from 16,000 km^3 to 4,000 agrees with your:  "...The data are all still within a narrow range."?
                                                         
                                                        Bob

                                                        --- On Thu, 9/8/11, Calvin Wolff <calvin@...> wrote:

                                                        From: Calvin Wolff <calvin@...>
                                                        Subject: RE: [climatechangedebate] Arctic ice
                                                        To: climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com
                                                        Date: Thursday, September 8, 2011, 10:35 PM

                                                         

                                                        Good point Dick.  Is what you’re saying similar to more southward movement of the Jet Stream?

                                                         

                                                        Calvin.

                                                         

                                                        From: climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com [mailto:climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dick Kahle
                                                        Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2011 10:46 PM
                                                        To: climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com
                                                        Subject: Re: [climatechangedebate] Arctic ice

                                                         

                                                         

                                                        Al,

                                                        My point was not about the level relative, which I am well aware of, but to get people to think about the fact that maybe there is more warming in the Arctic in partially due to the fact that the colder air moved further south due to meridional circulation and can return to the Arctic just as easily.

                                                        Dick

                                                        On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 8:27 PM, Albert Masetti <almasetti@...> wrote:

                                                         

                                                        Dick,

                                                         

                                                         

                                                        The data are all still within a narrow range.   When folks talk abut low extent, they make it sound like it's all gone.  Or that it flatlined at a level of two.

                                                         

                                                        Not so.

                                                         

                                                        Even worse, there are only a dozen years of comparable data.

                                                         

                                                        So, it's all normal.

                                                        - Al

                                                         

                                                         

                                                        On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 11:46 PM, Dick Kahle <dkahle@...> wrote:

                                                         

                                                        An interesting observation is that this low ice extent/area is happening after the US has had two colder than normal winters.

                                                        Dick

                                                         

                                                        On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 10:39 PM, Ian L. McQueen <imcqueen@...> wrote:

                                                         

                                                        Bob-

                                                        Yes, it <is> quite possible that the wind has become stronger by the
                                                        year. It is a known fact that wind directions have changed, varying between
                                                        Rossby waves and circumpolar. I would not rule out stronger winds of the
                                                        wrong direction, combined with "warmer" water flowing into the Arctic ocean.
                                                        How much do we really know about what is going on up there.

                                                        Ian



                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                        From: "Robert Maginnis" <bobmagi@...>
                                                        To: <climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com>
                                                        Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2011 12:22 AM
                                                        Subject: Re: [climatechangedebate] Arctic ice

                                                        Ian,

                                                        Do you suppose the wind blows harder down Fram Strait each year?

                                                        http://tamino.wordpress.com/2011/09/01/arctic-sea-ice-death-spiral-continues/

                                                        bob

                                                        --- On Tue, 9/6/11, Ian L. McQueen <imcqueen@...> wrote:

                                                        > From: Ian L. McQueen <imcqueen@...>
                                                        > Subject: [climatechangedebate] Arctic ice
                                                        > To: "CCD CLIMATE CHANGE DEBATE" <climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com>,
                                                        > climatesceptics@yahoogroups.com
                                                        > Date: Tuesday, September 6, 2011, 7:28 PM
                                                        > The amount of arctic
                                                        > ice is a little more than in 2007. That year, a lot
                                                        > of arctic ice was simply blown out of the arctic and down
                                                        > through the Fram
                                                        > Strait. Do we know if wind blowing ice was as much a factor
                                                        > this year?
                                                        >
                                                        > Ian
                                                        >
                                                        >

                                                        ----------------------------------------------------------

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                                                      • C. Bruce Richardson Jr.
                                                        Bob, is that chart the result of actual measurement? If so how was that done? How do you actually measure the volume of ice in the Arctic? In the text we have
                                                        Message 27 of 30 , Sep 9, 2011
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                                                          Bob, is that chart the result of actual measurement?  If so how was that done? How do you actually measure the volume of ice in the Arctic ? 

                                                          In the text we have [emphasis added]: 
                                                          The PSC recently improved their PIOMAS model, which combines the best observational data with their own analysis.” If the chart is based on modeled data, should it be titled “Min Arctic Sea Ice Volume” or should it be “Min Modeled Arctic Sea Ice Volume (estimated).” Shouldn’t it clearly state that it is based on modeled data that may very have been adjusted in some fashion? To average folks, that chart appears to be based on hard data.

                                                          That said, we are in an Arctic warm period which is probably similar to other arctic warm periods.  This one ought to be warmer because it follows a period of very high solar activity.  The previous arctic warm period that seems to have ended in the late 1950’s didn’t. 

                                                          Do you believe that this “Arctic Death Spiral” will continue so long as atmospheric CO2 continues to rise? In other words, do you believe that this “death spiral” was caused by increasing atmospheric CO2? If so, what was the cause of the previous Arctic warm period?  And what caused it to end?

                                                          If this Arctic warm period ends, as all previous Arctic warm periods have ended, while atmospheric CO2 continues to increase, will that suggest that this particular “Arctic death spiral” was not the result of increasing CO2?

                                                          Is it possible that the oscillation of the North Atlantic from a cool phase to a warm phase in the early 1970’s might have been a major factor in this Arctic warm period as well as the previous?




                                                          BTW, how is it possible to kill the Arctic ? Does ice go to heaven when it melts?

                                                          Was the Arctic Warm Period that permitted the Norse colonies in Greenland to thrive (for a while) the result of increasing atmospheric CO2? 

                                                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Greenland


                                                          “To investigate the possibility of climatic cooling, scientists drilled into the Greenland ice caps to obtain core samples. The oxygen isotopes from the ice caps suggested that the Medieval Warm Period had caused a relatively milder climate in Greenland , lasting from roughly 800 to 1200. However from 1300 or so the climate began to cool. By 1420, we know that the "Little Ice Age" had reached intense levels in Greenland . Excavations of midden or garbage heaps from the Viking farms in both Greenland and Iceland show the shift from the bones of cows and pigs to those of sheep and goats. As the winters lengthened, and the springs and summers shortened, there must have been less and less time for Greenlanders to grow hay. By the mid-14th century deposits from a chieftain’s farm showed a large number of cattle and caribou remains, whereas, a poorer farm only several kilometers away had no trace of domestic animal remains, only seal. Bone samples from Greenland Norse cemeteries confirm that the typical Greenlander diet had increased by this time from 20% sea animals to 80%.”

                                                          Is it possible that what nature has done before, nature might be doing again? 

                                                          Bruce

                                                          C. Bruce Richardson Jr.
                                                          Houston , Texas


                                                          From: climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com [mailto:climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Robert Maginnis
                                                          Sent: Friday, September 09, 2011 12:57 AM
                                                          To: climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com
                                                          Subject: RE: [climatechangedebate] Arctic ice

                                                           

                                                           

                                                          Calvin,

                                                           

                                                          If there has been more 'meridional circulation,' it should be easy to find from records, but a warming Arctic is predicted by AGW theory, and here is more evidence, lowest ice volume yet:

                                                           

                                                          "The Polar Science Center at the University of Washington has updated its calculations of Arctic sea ice volume.  As usual, Neven has the best graphs of the PSC’s data at his Arctic Sea Ice Blog, a must-read for cryosphere-junkies.

                                                          Sea_ice_VOL_min_to_date

                                                          The PSC recently improved their PIOMAS model, which combines the best observational data with their own analysis.  They are publishing their findings in the Journal of Geophysical Research, “Uncertainty in Modeled Arctic Sea Ice Volume”:

                                                          … the 2010 September ice volume anomaly did in fact exceed the previous 2007 minimum by a large enough margin to establish a statistically significant new record.

                                                          And now that 2010 record is broken — and the melt season isn’t over yet.

                                                           

                                                          Al, do you think dropping from 16,000 km^3 to 4,000 agrees with your:  "...The data are all still within a narrow range."?

                                                           

                                                          Bob


                                                          --- On Thu, 9/8/11, Calvin Wolff <calvin@...> wrote:


                                                          From: Calvin Wolff <calvin@...>
                                                          Subject: RE: [climatechangedebate] Arctic ice
                                                          To: climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com
                                                          Date: Thursday, September 8, 2011, 10:35 PM

                                                           

                                                          Good point Dick.  Is what you’re saying similar to more southward movement of the Jet Stream?

                                                           

                                                          Calvin.

                                                           

                                                          From: climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com [mailto:climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dick Kahle
                                                          Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2011 10:46 PM
                                                          To: climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com
                                                          Subject: Re: [climatechangedebate] Arctic ice

                                                           

                                                           

                                                          Al,

                                                          My point was not about the level relative, which I am well aware of, but to get people to think about the fact that maybe there is more warming in the Arctic in partially due to the fact that the colder air moved further south due to meridional circulation and can return to the Arctic just as easily.

                                                          Dick

                                                          On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 8:27 PM, Albert Masetti <almasetti@...> wrote:

                                                           

                                                          Dick,

                                                           

                                                           

                                                          The data are all still within a narrow range.   When folks talk abut low extent, they make it sound like it's all gone.  Or that it flatlined at a level of two.

                                                           

                                                          Not so.

                                                           

                                                          Even worse, there are only a dozen years of comparable data.

                                                           

                                                          So, it's all normal.

                                                          - Al

                                                           

                                                           

                                                          On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 11:46 PM, Dick Kahle <dkahle@...> wrote:

                                                           

                                                          An interesting observation is that this low ice extent/area is happening after the US has had two colder than normal winters.

                                                          Dick

                                                           

                                                          On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 10:39 PM, Ian L. McQueen <imcqueen@...> wrote:

                                                           

                                                          Bob-

                                                          Yes, it <is> quite possible that the wind has become stronger by the
                                                          year. It is a known fact that wind directions have changed, varying between
                                                          Rossby waves and circumpolar. I would not rule out stronger winds of the
                                                          wrong direction, combined with "warmer" water flowing into the Arctic ocean .
                                                          How much do we really know about what is going on up there.

                                                          Ian



                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                          From: "Robert Maginnis" <bobmagi@...>
                                                          To: <climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com>
                                                          Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2011 12:22 AM
                                                          Subject: Re: [climatechangedebate] Arctic ice

                                                          Ian,

                                                          Do you suppose the wind blows harder down Fram Strait each year?

                                                          http://tamino.wordpress.com/2011/09/01/arctic-sea-ice-death-spiral-continues/

                                                          bob

                                                          --- On Tue, 9/6/11, Ian L. McQueen <imcqueen@...> wrote:

                                                          > From: Ian L. McQueen <imcqueen@...>
                                                          > Subject: [climatechangedebate] Arctic ice
                                                          > To: "CCD CLIMATE CHANGE DEBATE" <climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com>,
                                                          > climatesceptics@yahoogroups.com
                                                          > Date: Tuesday, September 6, 2011, 7:28 PM
                                                          > The amount of arctic
                                                          > ice is a little more than in 2007. That year, a lot
                                                          > of arctic ice was simply blown out of the arctic and down
                                                          > through the Fram
                                                          > Strait. Do we know if wind blowing ice was as much a factor
                                                          > this year?
                                                          >
                                                          > Ian
                                                          >
                                                          >

                                                          ----------------------------------------------------------

                                                          No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                          Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                          Version: 9.0.901 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3881 - Release Date: 09/06/11
                                                          15:44:00

                                                           

                                                           

                                                           

                                                        • Brian K
                                                          a warming Arctic is predicted by AGW theory   Oh.  So that must mean that AGW theory also predicts the end of the Little Ice Age.  All this time I ve been
                                                          Message 28 of 30 , Sep 9, 2011
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                                                            "a warming Arctic is predicted by AGW theory"
                                                             
                                                            Oh.  So that must mean that AGW theory also predicts the end of the Little Ice Age.  All this time I've been arguing against AGW!  :)
                                                             
                                                            Brian
                                                             
                                                            From: Robert Maginnis <bobmagi@...>
                                                            To: climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com
                                                            Sent: Thursday, September 8, 2011 10:57 PM
                                                            Subject: RE: [climatechangedebate] Arctic ice
                                                             
                                                            Calvin,
                                                             
                                                            If there has been more 'meridional circulation,' it should be easy to find from records, but a warming Arctic is predicted by AGW theory, and here is more evidence, lowest ice volume yet:
                                                             
                                                            "The Polar Science Center at the University of Washington has updated its calculations of Arctic sea ice volume.  As usual, Neven has the best graphs of the PSC’s data at his Arctic Sea Ice Blog, a must-read for cryosphere-junkies.
                                                            Sea_ice_VOL_min_to_date
                                                            The PSC recently improved their PIOMAS model, which combines the best observational data with their own analysis.  They are publishing their findings in the Journal of Geophysical Research, “Uncertainty in Modeled Arctic Sea Ice Volume”:
                                                            … the 2010 September ice volume anomaly did in fact exceed the previous 2007 minimum by a large enough margin to establish a statistically significant new record.
                                                            And now that 2010 record is broken — and the melt season isn’t over yet.
                                                             
                                                            Al, do you think dropping from 16,000 km^3 to 4,000 agrees with your:  "...The data are all still within a narrow range."?
                                                             
                                                            Bob
                                                            --- On Thu, 9/8/11, Calvin Wolff <calvin@...> wrote:

                                                            From: Calvin Wolff <calvin@...>
                                                            Subject: RE: [climatechangedebate] Arctic ice
                                                            To: climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com
                                                            Date: Thursday, September 8, 2011, 10:35 PM

                                                             
                                                            Good point Dick.  Is what you’re saying similar to more southward movement of the Jet Stream?
                                                             
                                                            Calvin.
                                                             
                                                            From: climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com [mailto:climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dick Kahle
                                                            Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2011 10:46 PM
                                                            To: climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com
                                                            Subject: Re: [climatechangedebate] Arctic ice
                                                             
                                                             
                                                            Al, My point was not about the level relative, which I am well aware of, but to get people to think about the fact that maybe there is more warming in the Arctic in partially due to the fact that the colder air moved further south due to meridional circulation and can return to the Arctic just as easily. Dick
                                                            On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 8:27 PM, Albert Masetti <almasetti@...> wrote:
                                                             
                                                            Dick,
                                                             
                                                             
                                                            The data are all still within a narrow range.   When folks talk abut low extent, they make it sound like it's all gone.  Or that it flatlined at a level of two.
                                                             
                                                            Not so.
                                                             
                                                            Even worse, there are only a dozen years of comparable data.
                                                             
                                                            So, it's all normal.
                                                            - Al
                                                             
                                                             
                                                            On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 11:46 PM, Dick Kahle <dkahle@...> wrote:
                                                             
                                                            An interesting observation is that this low ice extent/area is happening after the US has had two colder than normal winters.

                                                            Dick
                                                             
                                                            On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 10:39 PM, Ian L. McQueen <imcqueen@...> wrote:
                                                             
                                                            Bob-

                                                            Yes, it <is> quite possible that the wind has become stronger by the
                                                            year. It is a known fact that wind directions have changed, varying between
                                                            Rossby waves and circumpolar. I would not rule out stronger winds of the
                                                            wrong direction, combined with "warmer" water flowing into the Arctic ocean.
                                                            How much do we really know about what is going on up there.

                                                            Ian


                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                            From: "Robert Maginnis" <bobmagi@...>
                                                            To: <climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com>
                                                            Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2011 12:22 AM
                                                            Subject: Re: [climatechangedebate] Arctic ice

                                                            Ian,

                                                            Do you suppose the wind blows harder down Fram Strait each year?

                                                            http://tamino.wordpress.com/2011/09/01/arctic-sea-ice-death-spiral-continues/

                                                            bob

                                                            --- On Tue, 9/6/11, Ian L. McQueen <imcqueen@...> wrote:

                                                            > From: Ian L. McQueen <imcqueen@...>
                                                            > Subject: [climatechangedebate] Arctic ice
                                                            > To: "CCD CLIMATE CHANGE DEBATE" <climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com>,
                                                            > climatesceptics@yahoogroups.com
                                                            > Date: Tuesday, September 6, 2011, 7:28 PM
                                                            > The amount of arctic
                                                            > ice is a little more than in 2007. That year, a lot
                                                            > of arctic ice was simply blown out of the arctic and down
                                                            > through the Fram
                                                            > Strait. Do we know if wind blowing ice was as much a factor
                                                            > this year?
                                                            >
                                                            > Ian
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            ----------------------------------------------------------

                                                            No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                            Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                            Version: 9.0.901 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3881 - Release Date: 09/06/11
                                                            15:44:00
                                                             
                                                             
                                                             
                                                          • Dick Kahle
                                                            Calvin, Meridional circulation involves the jet stream moving further south, many times in a looping fashion. This has been associated with low solar activity
                                                            Message 29 of 30 , Sep 9, 2011
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                                                              Calvin,

                                                              Meridional circulation involves the jet stream moving further south, many times in a looping fashion. This has been associated with low solar activity and cold winters in Great Britain in peer reviewed studies. Judith Haigh has documented that there is more meridional circulation during periods of low solar activity than during high periods of solar activity. These jet stream loops were causal factors in the previous simultaneous dry, hot Russian summer and heavy Pakistani rains (the same loop was pushing warm dry air north on the Russian side and cool wet air south on the Pakistani side) and then in the severe US tornado breakout this spring, it was partly due to a cool spring in the east central us contrasted with a normal south. In that case, the cool air was part of the driver. There were also specific air circulation patterns that had nothing to due with warming that contributed to the Spring outbreak. After the cool air in the east central US moved north we had a relatively quiet tornado season after that.

                                                              When weathermen see specific conditions creating the weather patterns, conditions they have seen before, they are justifiable skeptical of the simplistic claims that it must be due to AGW.

                                                              Dick

                                                              On Sep 9, 2011 12:34 AM, "Calvin Wolff" <calvin@...> wrote:
                                                              > Good point Dick. Is what you're saying similar to more southward movement
                                                              > of the Jet Stream?
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              > Calvin.
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              > From: climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com
                                                              > [mailto:climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dick Kahle
                                                              > Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2011 10:46 PM
                                                              > To: climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com
                                                              > Subject: Re: [climatechangedebate] Arctic ice
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              > Al,
                                                              >
                                                              > My point was not about the level relative, which I am well aware of, but to
                                                              > get people to think about the fact that maybe there is more warming in the
                                                              > Arctic in partially due to the fact that the colder air moved further south
                                                              > due to meridional circulation and can return to the Arctic just as easily.
                                                              >
                                                              > Dick
                                                              >
                                                              > On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 8:27 PM, Albert Masetti <almasetti@...> wrote:
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              > Dick,
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              > The data are all still within a narrow range. When folks talk abut low
                                                              > extent, they make it sound like it's all gone. Or that it flatlined at a
                                                              > level of two.
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              > Not so.
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              > Even worse, there are only a dozen years of comparable data.
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              > So, it's all normal.
                                                              >
                                                              > - Al
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              > On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 11:46 PM, Dick Kahle <dkahle@...> wrote:
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              > An interesting observation is that this low ice extent/area is happening
                                                              > after the US has had two colder than normal winters.
                                                              >
                                                              > Dick
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              > On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 10:39 PM, Ian L. McQueen <imcqueen@...>
                                                              > wrote:
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              > Bob-
                                                              >
                                                              > Yes, it <is> quite possible that the wind has become stronger by the
                                                              > year. It is a known fact that wind directions have changed, varying between
                                                              > Rossby waves and circumpolar. I would not rule out stronger winds of the
                                                              > wrong direction, combined with "warmer" water flowing into the Arctic ocean.
                                                              >
                                                              > How much do we really know about what is going on up there.
                                                              >
                                                              > Ian
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              > ----- Original Message -----
                                                              > From: "Robert Maginnis" <bobmagi@... <mailto:bobmagi%40att.net> >
                                                              > To: <climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com
                                                              > <mailto:climatechangedebate%40yahoogroups.com> >
                                                              > Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2011 12:22 AM
                                                              > Subject: Re: [climatechangedebate] Arctic ice
                                                              >
                                                              > Ian,
                                                              >
                                                              > Do you suppose the wind blows harder down Fram Strait each year?
                                                              >
                                                              > http://tamino.wordpress.com/2011/09/01/arctic-sea-ice-death-spiral-continues
                                                              > /
                                                              >
                                                              > bob
                                                              >
                                                              > --- On Tue, 9/6/11, Ian L. McQueen <imcqueen@...
                                                              > <mailto:imcqueen%40nbnet.nb.ca> > wrote:
                                                              >
                                                              >> From: Ian L. McQueen <imcqueen@... <mailto:imcqueen%40nbnet.nb.ca>
                                                              >>
                                                              >> Subject: [climatechangedebate] Arctic ice
                                                              >> To: "CCD CLIMATE CHANGE DEBATE" <climatechangedebate@yahoogroups.com
                                                              > <mailto:climatechangedebate%40yahoogroups.com> >,
                                                              >> climatesceptics@yahoogroups.com <mailto:climatesceptics%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                              >
                                                              >> Date: Tuesday, September 6, 2011, 7:28 PM
                                                              >> The amount of arctic
                                                              >> ice is a little more than in 2007. That year, a lot
                                                              >> of arctic ice was simply blown out of the arctic and down
                                                              >> through the Fram
                                                              >> Strait. Do we know if wind blowing ice was as much a factor
                                                              >> this year?
                                                              >>
                                                              >> Ian
                                                              >>
                                                              >>
                                                              >
                                                              > ----------------------------------------------------------
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                                                              > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                              > Version: 9.0.901 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3881 - Release Date: 09/06/11
                                                              > 15:44:00
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