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AQWF

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  • dgsc@iprimus.com.au
    A last thought on AQWF. Meg quoted Kipling in her discussion on so it might be appropriate to see what he thought of WW 1. His only son
    Message 1 of 10 , Dec 2, 2006
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      A last thought on AQWF. Meg quoted Kipling in her discussion on < Heart of
      Darkness >so it might be appropriate to see what he thought of WW 1. His
      only son John was rejected for enlistment on health grounds so Kipling pulled
      strings and got him accepted into the Irish Guards. John was killed at Loos
      in 1915 and his body was never found. He was 17.

      Epitaphs of War 1914-18

      A DEAD STATESMAN
      I could not dig: I dared not rob:
      Therefore I lied to please the mob.
      Now all my lies are proved untrue
      And I must face the men I slew.
      What tale shall serve me here among
      Mine angry and defrauded young?

      Rudyard Kipling
    • blueeyesmeg
      ... Heart of ... 1. His ... Kipling pulled ... at Loos ... War 1914-18 ... Thanks for this epitaph, Kipling at least changed his views on war. This a very sad
      Message 2 of 10 , Dec 2, 2006
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        --- In classicsreadinggroup@yahoogroups.com, dgsc@... wrote:
        >
        > A last thought on AQWF. Meg quoted Kipling in her discussion on <
        Heart of
        > Darkness >so it might be appropriate to see what he thought of WW
        1. His
        > only son John was rejected for enlistment on health grounds so
        Kipling pulled
        > strings and got him accepted into the Irish Guards. John was killed
        at Loos
        > in 1915 and his body was never found. He was 17.
        >
        > Epitaphs of
        War 1914-18
        >
        > A DEAD STATESMAN
        > I could not dig: I dared not rob:
        > Therefore I lied to please the mob.
        > Now all my lies are proved untrue
        > And I must face the men I slew.
        > What tale shall serve me here among
        > Mine angry and defrauded young?
        >
        > Rudyard Kipling

        Thanks for this epitaph, Kipling at least changed his views on war.
        This a very sad poem, no doubt Kipling was full of regret.

        Meg
      • Frank T
        I found the book excellent. The young men go out to fight and die while the old men back home talk about the glories of war and dying for the Fatherland. How
        Message 3 of 10 , Dec 3, 2006
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          I found the book excellent.
          The young men go out to fight and die while the old men back home talk
          about the glories of war and dying for the Fatherland. How often this
          is repeated in modern history, where the leaders of the country are
          safe at home and the young go out to fight their battles.
          One of my favorite scenes is where they are discussing why the war is
          being fought. One says that war starts when one country insults
          another, and another asks how can that be. Can a mountain in Germany
          insult a river in France?
          The only reason that they can come up with for the war is because every
          emperor needs to have one to cement his legacy and go down in history.
          What a depressing thought.
          FrankT
        • Renee
          Hi Frank--- good to have you back---real life can be a spot of bother , can t it???? Anyway,this new discussion of motives for war, ensuing regret,yearning
          Message 4 of 10 , Dec 3, 2006
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            Hi Frank---
            good to have you back---real life can be a 'spot of bother' , can't
            it????

            Anyway,this new discussion of motives for war, ensuing
            regret,yearning to leave a legacy----is quite appropriate today in
            the US---With the current administrations hoopla to rush into Iraq,
            the resulting chaos & loss of life, & GW Bush's recent remarks of his
            intention to build a $500,000,000 that's five HUNDRED MILLION dollar
            GW Bush Presidential Library.
            If History repeats itself----why don't we ever learn the lessons?
            Renee

            --- In classicsreadinggroup@yahoogroups.com, "Frank T" <XTONTOX@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > I found the book excellent.
            > The young men go out to fight and die while the old men back home
            talk
            > about the glories of war and dying for the Fatherland. How often
            this
            > is repeated in modern history, where the leaders of the country are
            > safe at home and the young go out to fight their battles.
            > One of my favorite scenes is where they are discussing why the war
            is
            > being fought. One says that war starts when one country insults
            > another, and another asks how can that be. Can a mountain in
            Germany
            > insult a river in France?
            > The only reason that they can come up with for the war is because
            every
            > emperor needs to have one to cement his legacy and go down in
            history.
            > What a depressing thought.
            > FrankT
            >
          • tom j.
            Just joined and have not read the book yet, but I can t help thinking of the Fog of War film with McNamara reflecting on the chaos, bad judgments, and how
            Message 5 of 10 , Dec 3, 2006
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              Just joined and have not read the book yet, but I can't help thinking of the "Fog of War" film with McNamara reflecting on the chaos, bad judgments, and how decisions are made with bad interpretations of data. Also how we can draw conclusions because our complete framework is wrong. We so often seem unaware of the thousand years of history leading into a conflict or war and how that has such great impact. Tom

              Renee <r_mouilso@...> wrote: Hi Frank---
              good to have you back---real life can be a 'spot of bother' , can't
              it????

              Anyway,this new discussion of motives for war, ensuing
              regret,yearning to leave a legacy----is quite appropriate today in
              the US---With the current administrations hoopla to rush into Iraq,
              the resulting chaos & loss of life, & GW Bush's recent remarks of his
              intention to build a $500,000,000 that's five HUNDRED MILLION dollar
              GW Bush Presidential Library.
              If History repeats itself----why don't we ever learn the lessons?
              Renee

              --- In classicsreadinggroup@yahoogroups.com, "Frank T" <XTONTOX@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > I found the book excellent.
              > The young men go out to fight and die while the old men back home
              talk
              > about the glories of war and dying for the Fatherland. How often
              this
              > is repeated in modern history, where the leaders of the country are
              > safe at home and the young go out to fight their battles.
              > One of my favorite scenes is where they are discussing why the war
              is
              > being fought. One says that war starts when one country insults
              > another, and another asks how can that be. Can a mountain in
              Germany
              > insult a river in France?
              > The only reason that they can come up with for the war is because
              every
              > emperor needs to have one to cement his legacy and go down in
              history.
              > What a depressing thought.
              > FrankT
              >






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            • blueeyesmeg
              ... I don t know why we keep going to war, lives are lost and it effects so many innocent people for no worthwhile purpose at all. Greed I think is the
              Message 6 of 10 , Dec 3, 2006
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                --- In classicsreadinggroup@yahoogroups.com, "Renee" <r_mouilso@...>
                wrote:
                > If History repeats itself----why don't we ever learn the lessons?
                > Renee

                I don't know why we keep going to war, lives are lost and it effects so
                many innocent people for no worthwhile purpose at all. Greed I think
                is the predominant motive for Governments.
                Ernst tries to understand your question also in The Road Back, he
                says: Because none can ever wholly feel what another suffers - is that
                the reason why wars perpetually recur?

                Meg
              • MsTigerHawk
                That s why history repeats itself. Because we don t learn the lessons. War is usually about power and greed and taking the land that belongs to others, or else
                Message 7 of 10 , Dec 3, 2006
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                  That's why history repeats itself. Because we don't learn the lessons. War is usually about power and greed and taking the land that belongs to others, or else it's about religion.

                  Colleen


                  blueeyesmeg <broughtonmargaret@...> wrote:
                  --- In classicsreadinggroup@yahoogroups.com, "Renee" <r_mouilso@...>
                  wrote:
                  > If History repeats itself----why don't we ever learn the lessons?
                  > Renee

                  I don't know why we keep going to war, lives are lost and it effects so
                  many innocent people for no worthwhile purpose at all. Greed I think
                  is the predominant motive for Governments.
                  Ernst tries to understand your question also in The Road Back, he
                  says: Because none can ever wholly feel what another suffers - is that
                  the reason why wars perpetually recur?

                  Meg






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                • blueeyesmeg
                  Hi Tom and welcome. I haven t seen Fog of War but we do often read that bad judgements were made in war. I think Mr Rumsfeld even admits now that he has made
                  Message 8 of 10 , Dec 3, 2006
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                    Hi Tom and welcome. I haven't seen Fog of War but we do often read that
                    bad judgements were made in war. I think Mr Rumsfeld even admits now
                    that he has made some mistakes in Iraq!

                    Meg

                    --- In classicsreadinggroup@yahoogroups.com, "tom j." <kerokeman@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > Just joined and have not read the book yet, but I can't help thinking
                    of the "Fog of War" film with McNamara reflecting on the chaos, bad
                    judgments, and how decisions are made with bad interpretations of
                    data. Also how we can draw conclusions because our complete framework
                    is wrong. We so often seem unaware of the thousand years of history
                    leading into a conflict or war and how that has such great impact. Tom
                  • Karen Glass
                    ... -- Exactly. It s simplistic to say that wars have no worthwhile purpose except greed. If we always avoided war on the principle that war itself is an
                    Message 9 of 10 , Dec 3, 2006
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                      On Dec 3, 2006, at 6:37 PM, tom j. wrote:

                      > We so often seem unaware of the thousand years of history leading into
                      > a conflict or war and how that has such great impact.
                      --

                      Exactly. It's simplistic to say that wars have no worthwhile purpose
                      except greed. If we always avoided war on the principle that war
                      itself is an evil to be avoided (and nothing could be worse), Much or
                      all of Europe would be German-speaking today and instead of the EU we'd
                      have the Third Reich. In North America, we'd have both a USA and a CSA
                      (Confederate States of America), and who knows what kind of racial
                      conditions there would be in the CSA? Then again, if war were always
                      avoided as the greatest evil, there wouldn't be a USA at all, but maybe
                      a few little former British colonies along the east coast--smaller than
                      Canada, but independent, not united. The western USA would probably
                      belong to China or Japan, or possibly Mexico. There might still be
                      some large tracts of Native American land in the middle somewhere, but
                      not necessarily.

                      The problem is that if war itself is such a great evil it must be
                      avoided on principle alone, unprincipled people will still use it (like
                      guns) to impose their will on individuals, governments, and the world.
                      On a smaller scale, but to illustrate how ludicrous this looks in
                      practice....do you realize that in the UK it is illegal to defend
                      yourself? If you are a 120 pound woman being attacked by a 200 pound
                      man and you use pepper spray against him...you will be charged with a
                      crime. If you are alone and a gang jumps you, you will be guilty of a
                      crime if you use knowledge of karate to even the score. On a world
                      scale, if Hitler decides to invade your country, is war--fighting for
                      your life, rights, independence--really a crime?

                      I agree with anything anyone can say about how terrible and dreadful
                      war is. I'm just not sure it's the worst thing in the world.

                      -Karen
                    • chrcheryl@bellsouth.net
                      In the end, what it comes down to is whether the war is a necessary war, or just politics. Unfortunately, I believe the situation in Iraq right now is the
                      Message 10 of 10 , Dec 4, 2006
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                        In the end, what it comes down to is whether the war is a necessary war, or just "politics." Unfortunately, I believe the situation in Iraq right now is the latter. I think most people believe that a "just" war is acceptable ~ for example, when there is someone like Hitler bent on world domination that needs to be stopped. In a case like that, was IS necessary. But many wars are started,and many young men sent off to fight them, because of certain political agendas of various people "in charge." I see the question of whether war is right or wrong as a very "grey" area. I don't believe there is a black and white answer, right or wrong; each situation (war) is different.
                        >
                        > From: Karen Glass <karenglass@...>
                        > Date: 2006/12/04 Mon AM 02:06:58 EST
                        > To: classicsreadinggroup@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: Re: [CRG] Re: AQWF
                        >
                        >
                        > On Dec 3, 2006, at 6:37 PM, tom j. wrote:
                        >
                        > > We so often seem unaware of the thousand years of history leading into
                        > > a conflict or war and how that has such great impact.
                        > --
                        >
                        > Exactly. It's simplistic to say that wars have no worthwhile purpose
                        > except greed. If we always avoided war on the principle that war
                        > itself is an evil to be avoided (and nothing could be worse), Much or
                        > all of Europe would be German-speaking today and instead of the EU we'd
                        > have the Third Reich. In North America, we'd have both a USA and a CSA
                        > (Confederate States of America), and who knows what kind of racial
                        > conditions there would be in the CSA? Then again, if war were always
                        > avoided as the greatest evil, there wouldn't be a USA at all, but maybe
                        > a few little former British colonies along the east coast--smaller than
                        > Canada, but independent, not united. The western USA would probably
                        > belong to China or Japan, or possibly Mexico. There might still be
                        > some large tracts of Native American land in the middle somewhere, but
                        > not necessarily.
                        >
                        > The problem is that if war itself is such a great evil it must be
                        > avoided on principle alone, unprincipled people will still use it (like
                        > guns) to impose their will on individuals, governments, and the world.
                        > On a smaller scale, but to illustrate how ludicrous this looks in
                        > practice....do you realize that in the UK it is illegal to defend
                        > yourself? If you are a 120 pound woman being attacked by a 200 pound
                        > man and you use pepper spray against him...you will be charged with a
                        > crime. If you are alone and a gang jumps you, you will be guilty of a
                        > crime if you use knowledge of karate to even the score. On a world
                        > scale, if Hitler decides to invade your country, is war--fighting for
                        > your life, rights, independence--really a crime?
                        >
                        > I agree with anything anyone can say about how terrible and dreadful
                        > war is. I'm just not sure it's the worst thing in the world.
                        >
                        > -Karen
                        >
                        >
                        >
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