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Re: [classicrv] Lets talk about overheating problems

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  • Bill Miller
    Rob; I had a similar situation on a Cat 3208 Diesel. It would overheat like crazy on any steep hill. I did all the normal stuff, as you have, and then I had an
    Message 1 of 17 , Feb 13, 2013
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      Rob;
      I had a similar situation on a Cat 3208 Diesel. It would overheat like crazy on any steep hill. I did all the normal stuff, as you have, and then I had an electric fan installed in place of the regular factory fan. I had it wired so I could turn it on manually from the cab. Problem solved.

      I found out after I got rid of the truck, that the factory fan and radiator were to small for the application. That truck was meant to be a local delivery van or garbage truck; I had it hauling a 48'   flat bed trailer.



      You may need to look at a bigger radiator, bigger fan, or full time fan as opposed to clutch operated.

      mainiac bill




      ________________________________
      From: Sirrobyn0 <sirrobyn0@...>
      To: classicrv@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 2:27 AM
      Subject: [classicrv] Lets talk about overheating problems


       
      Ok, let me preface this by reminding the group that I have been a automobile technician for the last 20 plus years, so I know how engines are supposed to work, but this one on my old RV has me stumped.

      So the RV is a 1977 Dodge Flair Class C 22 foot with the Dodge 360 engine. It has had some moderate engine overheating problems, usually most noticeable in 80+ weather, more prone to happen on hills, but I have always been able to control the engine temperature by turning on the cab heat. Not much fun in hot weather but better than the side of the road.

      Next heat related issue. When we first got the motorhome 12 years ago it would vapor lock in 70+ degree weather. 70 degree is not all that hot, I added a pusher pump back at the fuel tank, and insulated the lines in the engine compartment which has helped some, now it only vapor locks when the weather is 85 or hotter.

      Second to last heat related issue, percolation. Anytime it is over about 70 degrees outside, stop for fuel or a rest stop, after a few minites of the engine being turned off you'll smell fuel and have to floor it to get it to restart. What is really funny is sometimes it will percolate, then a few moments after starting, it will vapor lock... Actually it's not a bit funny. I open the hood first thing every time we stop the motorhome to help counter act the heat, which again helps.

      Final issue I suspect is heat related, and this can happen in almost any weather. Going up a long steep hill, that requires a lot of throttle this smell will come up. It reminds me of hot metal, this is more likely to occur in cooler weather, because in hotter weather I have to drive slower on the hills to keep the engine temps down. I suspect that under the load of a long hill the exhaust manifolds are getting very hot, possibly glowing hot. I just had to replace both of the exhaust manifolds because they had cracked, also the gaskets were burned to a crisp.

      I have done all the usual stuff to fix overheating.
      Radiator rodded out.
      Thermostat replaced.
      Fan clutch replaced.
      Hoses and belts replaced.
      I'm sure I have tried more that I can't remember at the moment.

      And yes the original OE. fan shroud is in place and in good shape.
      The heat riser was removed from the exhaust manifold sometime back, and there exhaust is free from restriction.

      Though the motorhome runs great otherwise, I suspect this is being caused by retarded ignition timing or to lean of a carburetor. I cannot see the timing marks on the harmonic balancer, with a light due to the location of the power steering pump and air pump on the block. There isn't a mark on the flywheel, although there is a hole present in the bell housing, for that setup, but the transmission was replaced just before we bought it, and the torque converter was replaced at that time.

      I have access to a 4 gas analyzer at work, and was thinking of hooking it up to see how rich or lean the carburetor actually is.

      So you guys out there that know these Dodge 360 better that I do, what do you think is causing all these heat issues?
      Any good ideas on how to set the timing other than doing it by ear?


      Thanks for the advice,
      Rob




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • GeorgeG
      My idea for lots of the overheating is the crap gas. You can bring the vehicle back to new spec with a new rad, pater pump, belts and it still runs 20+ deg
      Message 2 of 17 , Feb 13, 2013
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        My idea for lots of the overheating is the crap gas. You can bring the vehicle back to new spec with a new rad, pater pump, belts and it still runs 20+ deg warmer than it did in the 70's. Additive helps my "house".
        Lots of motor home chassis have a hole and marks in the top of the bell to set the timeing. Take a look.
        I do a lot with the Dodge A-100 and we find getting hot air out of the engine box is a big help. You can't get air in the rad if you can't get rid of the hot air behind it. Look for a place behind the engine in both corners and put a piece of 3" or 4" plastic pipe up along side the engine about half way up the engine area. bring it down and put fittings on it to bring it out the side of the truck. Some guys even install small fans in the pipe.

        --- In classicrv@yahoogroups.com, "Sirrobyn0" wrote:
        >
        > Ok, let me preface this by reminding the group that I have been a automobile technician for the last 20 plus years, so I know how engines are supposed to work, but this one on my old RV has me stumped.
        >
        > So the RV is a 1977 Dodge Flair Class C 22 foot with the Dodge 360 engine. It has had some moderate engine overheating problems, usually most noticeable in 80+ weather, more prone to happen on hills, but I have always been able to control the engine temperature by turning on the cab heat. Not much fun in hot weather but better than the side of the road.
        >
        > Next heat related issue. When we first got the motorhome 12 years ago it would vapor lock in 70+ degree weather. 70 degree is not all that hot, I added a pusher pump back at the fuel tank, and insulated the lines in the engine compartment which has helped some, now it only vapor locks when the weather is 85 or hotter.
        >
        > Second to last heat related issue, percolation. Anytime it is over about 70 degrees outside, stop for fuel or a rest stop, after a few minites of the engine being turned off you'll smell fuel and have to floor it to get it to restart. What is really funny is sometimes it will percolate, then a few moments after starting, it will vapor lock... Actually it's not a bit funny. I open the hood first thing every time we stop the motorhome to help counter act the heat, which again helps.
        >
        > Final issue I suspect is heat related, and this can happen in almost any weather. Going up a long steep hill, that requires a lot of throttle this smell will come up. It reminds me of hot metal, this is more likely to occur in cooler weather, because in hotter weather I have to drive slower on the hills to keep the engine temps down. I suspect that under the load of a long hill the exhaust manifolds are getting very hot, possibly glowing hot. I just had to replace both of the exhaust manifolds because they had cracked, also the gaskets were burned to a crisp.
        >
        > I have done all the usual stuff to fix overheating.
        > Radiator rodded out.
        > Thermostat replaced.
        > Fan clutch replaced.
        > Hoses and belts replaced.
        > I'm sure I have tried more that I can't remember at the moment.
        >
        > And yes the original OE. fan shroud is in place and in good shape.
        > The heat riser was removed from the exhaust manifold sometime back, and there exhaust is free from restriction.
        >
        > Though the motorhome runs great otherwise, I suspect this is being caused by retarded ignition timing or to lean of a carburetor. I cannot see the timing marks on the harmonic balancer, with a light due to the location of the power steering pump and air pump on the block. There isn't a mark on the flywheel, although there is a hole present in the bell housing, for that setup, but the transmission was replaced just before we bought it, and the torque converter was replaced at that time.
        >
        > I have access to a 4 gas analyzer at work, and was thinking of hooking it up to see how rich or lean the carburetor actually is.
        >
        > So you guys out there that know these Dodge 360 better that I do, what do you think is causing all these heat issues?
        > Any good ideas on how to set the timing other than doing it by ear?
        >
        >
        > Thanks for the advice,
        > Rob
        >
      • ezzinger
        There are many excellent suggestions which cover the practical problem in your case. You have already done your homework. I discovered in my experiences with a
        Message 3 of 17 , Feb 13, 2013
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          There are many excellent suggestions which cover the practical problem in your case. You have already done your homework. I discovered in my experiences with a large block mopar, that I was loosing intake vacuum with higher rpm, which was leaning the fuel mixture. Maybe driving with sensitivity to maintaining as much vacuum possible could alleviate your troubles. Also I presume you have already verified distributor and advance functions. A monitor gauge is an inexpensive reference. A road run with a portable exhaust mixture analyzer may give you additional information.
          Eric

          --- In classicrv@yahoogroups.com, "Sirrobyn0" wrote:
          >
          > Ok, let me preface this by reminding the group that I have been a automobile technician for the last 20 plus years, so I know how engines are supposed to work, but this one on my old RV has me stumped.
          >
        • Ted Kroll
          If I may suggest for the timing. Turn it over by hand until ur marks line up on #1 plug pos in dist. then make 2 marks of ur own that U can see with chalk or
          Message 4 of 17 , Feb 13, 2013
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            If I may suggest for the timing. Turn it over by hand until ur marks line up on #1 plug pos in dist. then make 2 marks of ur own that U can see with chalk or white paint, but the paint should dry that's why I use chalk the after it done I redo with paint.
            Ted
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: JerryK
            To: classicrv@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 5:30 AM
            Subject: Re: [classicrv] Lets talk about overheating problems



            Two thoughts.
            1. Since a vacuum lowers the boiling point of gasoline. You could just go with the pusher fuel pump and bypass the engine fuel pump.
            2. Could you hook up a small, cheap, corded camera to your computer (hopefully it's a laptop) and use it to set your timing?

            JerryK

            ________________________________
            From: Sirrobyn0 sirrobyn0@...>
            To: classicrv@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 2:27 AM
            Subject: [classicrv] Lets talk about overheating problems



            Ok, let me preface this by reminding the group that I have been a automobile technician for the last 20 plus years, so I know how engines are supposed to work, but this one on my old RV has me stumped.

            So the RV is a 1977 Dodge Flair Class C 22 foot with the Dodge 360 engine. It has had some moderate engine overheating problems, usually most noticeable in 80+ weather, more prone to happen on hills, but I have always been able to control the engine temperature by turning on the cab heat. Not much fun in hot weather but better than the side of the road.

            Next heat related issue. When we first got the motorhome 12 years ago it would vapor lock in 70+ degree weather. 70 degree is not all that hot, I added a pusher pump back at the fuel tank, and insulated the lines in the engine compartment which has helped some, now it only vapor locks when the weather is 85 or hotter.

            Second to last heat related issue, percolation. Anytime it is over about 70 degrees outside, stop for fuel or a rest stop, after a few minites of the engine being turned off you'll smell fuel and have to floor it to get it to restart. What is really funny is sometimes it will percolate, then a few moments after starting, it will vapor lock... Actually it's not a bit funny. I open the hood first thing every time we stop the motorhome to help counter act the heat, which again helps.

            Final issue I suspect is heat related, and this can happen in almost any weather. Going up a long steep hill, that requires a lot of throttle this smell will come up. It reminds me of hot metal, this is more likely to occur in cooler weather, because in hotter weather I have to drive slower on the hills to keep the engine temps down. I suspect that under the load of a long hill the exhaust manifolds are getting very hot, possibly glowing hot. I just had to replace both of the exhaust manifolds because they had cracked, also the gaskets were burned to a crisp.

            I have done all the usual stuff to fix overheating.
            Radiator rodded out.
            Thermostat replaced.
            Fan clutch replaced.
            Hoses and belts replaced.
            I'm sure I have tried more that I can't remember at the moment.

            And yes the original OE. fan shroud is in place and in good shape.
            The heat riser was removed from the exhaust manifold sometime back, and there exhaust is free from restriction.

            Though the motorhome runs great otherwise, I suspect this is being caused by retarded ignition timing or to lean of a carburetor. I cannot see the timing marks on the harmonic balancer, with a light due to the location of the power steering pump and air pump on the block. There isn't a mark on the flywheel, although there is a hole present in the bell housing, for that setup, but the transmission was replaced just before we bought it, and the torque converter was replaced at that time.

            I have access to a 4 gas analyzer at work, and was thinking of hooking it up to see how rich or lean the carburetor actually is.

            So you guys out there that know these Dodge 360 better that I do, what do you think is causing all these heat issues?
            Any good ideas on how to set the timing other than doing it by ear?

            Thanks for the advice,
            Rob

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Rich
            I kinda agree with the tank vent and a small hose splice of old tubing somewhere clogging up. I also had a perplexing problem in that I could not go over 55mph
            Message 5 of 17 , Feb 13, 2013
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              I kinda agree with the tank vent and a small hose splice of old tubing somewhere clogging up.
              I also had a perplexing problem in that I could not go over 55mph without detonating and everything was new except the transmission oil cooler. Turned out it was fastened in such a way as to pivot in the wind and deflect the air off of the radiator. Once I fixed that it ran beautifully. You might also change the manual fuel pump and put a fuel gauge on so you can monitor the pressure. Chevy carbed 454's had pressure problems.

              --- In classicrv@yahoogroups.com, "Sirrobyn0" wrote:
              >
              > Ok, let me preface this by reminding the group that I have been a automobile technician for the last 20 plus years, so I know how engines are supposed to work, but this one on my old RV has me stumped.
              >
              > So the RV is a 1977 Dodge Flair Class C 22 foot with the Dodge 360 engine. It has had some moderate engine overheating problems, usually most noticeable in 80+ weather, more prone to happen on hills, but I have always been able to control the engine temperature by turning on the cab heat. Not much fun in hot weather but better than the side of the road.
              >
              > Next heat related issue. When we first got the motorhome 12 years ago it would vapor lock in 70+ degree weather. 70 degree is not all that hot, I added a pusher pump back at the fuel tank, and insulated the lines in the engine compartment which has helped some, now it only vapor locks when the weather is 85 or hotter.
              >
              > Second to last heat related issue, percolation. Anytime it is over about 70 degrees outside, stop for fuel or a rest stop, after a few minites of the engine being turned off you'll smell fuel and have to floor it to get it to restart. What is really funny is sometimes it will percolate, then a few moments after starting, it will vapor lock... Actually it's not a bit funny. I open the hood first thing every time we stop the motorhome to help counter act the heat, which again helps.
              >
              > Final issue I suspect is heat related, and this can happen in almost any weather. Going up a long steep hill, that requires a lot of throttle this smell will come up. It reminds me of hot metal, this is more likely to occur in cooler weather, because in hotter weather I have to drive slower on the hills to keep the engine temps down. I suspect that under the load of a long hill the exhaust manifolds are getting very hot, possibly glowing hot. I just had to replace both of the exhaust manifolds because they had cracked, also the gaskets were burned to a crisp.
              >
              > I have done all the usual stuff to fix overheating.
              > Radiator rodded out.
              > Thermostat replaced.
              > Fan clutch replaced.
              > Hoses and belts replaced.
              > I'm sure I have tried more that I can't remember at the moment.
              >
              > And yes the original OE. fan shroud is in place and in good shape.
              > The heat riser was removed from the exhaust manifold sometime back, and there exhaust is free from restriction.
              >
              > Though the motorhome runs great otherwise, I suspect this is being caused by retarded ignition timing or to lean of a carburetor. I cannot see the timing marks on the harmonic balancer, with a light due to the location of the power steering pump and air pump on the block. There isn't a mark on the flywheel, although there is a hole present in the bell housing, for that setup, but the transmission was replaced just before we bought it, and the torque converter was replaced at that time.
              >
              > I have access to a 4 gas analyzer at work, and was thinking of hooking it up to see how rich or lean the carburetor actually is.
              >
              > So you guys out there that know these Dodge 360 better that I do, what do you think is causing all these heat issues?
              > Any good ideas on how to set the timing other than doing it by ear?
              >
              >
              > Thanks for the advice,
              > Rob
              >
            • RM
              I use white-out pens for that sort thing. They re great for marking the distributor cap and all sorts of stuff. The pen tip is small enough that it s easy to
              Message 6 of 17 , Feb 13, 2013
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                I use white-out pens for that sort thing. They're great for marking the distributor cap and all sorts of stuff. The pen tip is small enough that it's easy to use to write with and the marks last almost forever. My husband loved the idea when I showed it to him.
                --RoseMarie

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Ted Kroll

                If I may suggest for the timing. Turn it over by hand until ur marks line up on #1 plug pos in dist. then make 2 marks of ur own that U can see with chalk or white paint, but the paint should dry that's why I use chalk the after it done I redo with paint.
                Ted


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • randy lee
                As I remember the fan was an odd size, not very common now. I have seen too small of fan on these models, but if it original fan that can t be the problem.
                Message 7 of 17 , Feb 13, 2013
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                  As I remember the fan was an odd size, not very common now. I have seen too small of fan on these models, but if it original fan that can't be the problem. You could try a direct drive (no clutch) fan. With a direct drive fan, you need to get the fan close to the Radiator. Too large of space between the fan and the radiator make for overheating.
                   Often heat is transferred to the Carb from the intake manifold, you could try a plastic carb riser to block the heat from transferring (see summit or Jegs). I agree with the Transmission cooler, that always a good idea on a motor home.The 360 is a solid engine, and unless you have a HUGE motor home, the 360 should be fine. I think overheating is a bigger problem with the 440 anyway. 
                  Good Luck!

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Ted Kroll
                  Good idea Rose. Ted ... From: RM To: classicrv@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 12:47 PM Subject: Re: [classicrv] Lets talk about overheating
                  Message 8 of 17 , Feb 13, 2013
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                    Good idea Rose.
                    Ted
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: RM
                    To: classicrv@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 12:47 PM
                    Subject: Re: [classicrv] Lets talk about overheating problems



                    I use white-out pens for that sort thing. They're great for marking the distributor cap and all sorts of stuff. The pen tip is small enough that it's easy to use to write with and the marks last almost forever. My husband loved the idea when I showed it to him.
                    --RoseMarie

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Ted Kroll

                    If I may suggest for the timing. Turn it over by hand until ur marks line up on #1 plug pos in dist. then make 2 marks of ur own that U can see with chalk or white paint, but the paint should dry that's why I use chalk the after it done I redo with paint.
                    Ted

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Sirrobyn0
                    First I want to thank everyone for their thoughts I will try to address everyone here at once. While a diesel engine conversion would be great it is way out of
                    Message 9 of 17 , Feb 13, 2013
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                      First I want to thank everyone for their thoughts I will try to address everyone here at once.

                      While a diesel engine conversion would be great it is way out of the budget right now. If I could afford that kind of conversion I'd likely just by a motorhome with a diesel already in it. It be a lot of work to do the conversion.

                      About eliminating the engine fuel pump. I could do that and just go with the pusher pump however it would only mask the problem which I believe is to much heat. Either the engine producing to much heat or not enough heat leaving the engine. I may eliminate the engine pump if I don't find a better solve however.

                      I don't really think it is a clogged vent or a bad fuel line, though I will think about that some, and I may replace rubber lines just to see but this is definitely heat related as it is fine in the winter and never presents the vapor lock, perculate or overheating in the cooler winter temps.

                      However, some time ago in the past the metal line from the fuel pump to the carburetor was replaced with a rubber line. Not sure if rubber might absorb heat more than the original metal line.

                      The transmission has a large external cooler that was installed when the transmission was rebuilt. It is in good shape and has been checked, and is located in front of the a/c condenser.

                      It has the original radiator fan and shroud I have measured both of them and they are correct.

                      There is a hole in the bell housing that would have been to set the timing, but when the transmission was rebuilt the torque converter was replaced and the new one doesn't have any markings on it. I might try to make my own marks as someone suggested. I have not tested the advance curve on the distributor but I am thinking that I should.

                      I have thought about going to a direct fan, but have been concerned about the constant fan rpm at high speed and how it might affect the water pump bearings. I would love more input on going to a direct drive fan. That would be one way to move more air in the engine compartment. I'm not keen on going to an electric fan just because the alternators on these dogs aren't that big to begin with.

                      Also just for reference these problems have cropped up in the last few years. I'd like to stay away from modifying it to heavily if possible as this seems more like a wear, or adjustment problem, rather than a design issue.

                      Thank you all for you input, I look forward to anymore discussion.

                      Thanks,
                      Rob


                      --- In classicrv@yahoogroups.com, "Ted Kroll" wrote:
                      >
                      > Good idea Rose.
                      > Ted
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: RM
                      > To: classicrv@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 12:47 PM
                      > Subject: Re: [classicrv] Lets talk about overheating problems
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > I use white-out pens for that sort thing. They're great for marking the distributor cap and all sorts of stuff. The pen tip is small enough that it's easy to use to write with and the marks last almost forever. My husband loved the idea when I showed it to him.
                      > --RoseMarie
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: Ted Kroll
                      >
                      > If I may suggest for the timing. Turn it over by hand until ur marks line up on #1 plug pos in dist. then make 2 marks of ur own that U can see with chalk or white paint, but the paint should dry that's why I use chalk the after it done I redo with paint.
                      > Ted
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                    • James Hamilton
                      Suggestions for overheating from experience because I previously had a 1972 Brougham Class C with a Dodge 440. Had all of the same problems with carb, cracked
                      Message 10 of 17 , Feb 14, 2013
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                        Suggestions for overheating from experience because I previously had a 1972
                        Brougham Class C with a Dodge 440. Had all of the same problems with carb,
                        cracked manifolds, overheating that you have mentioned. A junk-yard visit
                        yielded two metal electric fans from a Honda Civic that would fit behind the
                        grill and in front of AC condenser, oil cooler, and radiator. Used manual
                        on/off switch on the dash during summer heat. That solved most of the
                        overheat problem.



                        Also purchased an in-line "booster" air-blower from Home Depot. This was
                        designed to mount inside the 6 inch standard furnace duct to increase
                        air-flow to a distant heating register. Unit was powered by a transformer
                        that plugged into the wall and turned 115 volts AC to 12 volts DC. Hooked
                        this booster up to 12 volt motorhome system and mounted behind grill under
                        headlight to push more air into the engine compartment. Worked so well on
                        one side, I added another later so both manifolds received blast of fresh
                        air moving over them, even at low speed driving.



                        I remember also reversing the lid of the air cleaner to be upside down, with
                        ring of black vacuum line hose to make a seal between the paper air filter
                        and the metal lid. This improved the carb air flow because it could suck
                        air 360 degrees around rather than thru the 3 inch corrugated black tube
                        provided by Dodge.

                        Jim Hamilton





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Dick
                        I have a 1977 M-500 with a 440. Same overheating and X seals in thermoquad leaking causing flooding, also warped manifold. For the overheating, I removed the
                        Message 11 of 17 , Feb 14, 2013
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                          I have a 1977 M-500 with a 440. Same overheating and X seals in thermoquad leaking causing flooding, also warped manifold. For the overheating, I removed the air conditioning and used the condenser coils for a transmission cooler. Installed temp gauges in and out and installed a temperature settable switch to control a dual fan setup that was already installed. I drove from South Carolina to Central America, and I am sure that without this setup, I never would have made it! Not sure if this would be good for cold weather, though!

                          --- In classicrv@yahoogroups.com, "James Hamilton" wrote:
                          >
                          > Suggestions for overheating from experience because I previously had a 1972
                          > Brougham Class C with a Dodge 440. Had all of the same problems with carb,
                          > cracked manifolds, overheating that you have mentioned. A junk-yard visit
                          > yielded two metal electric fans from a Honda Civic that would fit behind the
                          > grill and in front of AC condenser, oil cooler, and radiator. Used manual
                          > on/off switch on the dash during summer heat. That solved most of the
                          > overheat problem.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Also purchased an in-line "booster" air-blower from Home Depot. This was
                          > designed to mount inside the 6 inch standard furnace duct to increase
                          > air-flow to a distant heating register. Unit was powered by a transformer
                          > that plugged into the wall and turned 115 volts AC to 12 volts DC. Hooked
                          > this booster up to 12 volt motorhome system and mounted behind grill under
                          > headlight to push more air into the engine compartment. Worked so well on
                          > one side, I added another later so both manifolds received blast of fresh
                          > air moving over them, even at low speed driving.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > I remember also reversing the lid of the air cleaner to be upside down, with
                          > ring of black vacuum line hose to make a seal between the paper air filter
                          > and the metal lid. This improved the carb air flow because it could suck
                          > air 360 degrees around rather than thru the 3 inch corrugated black tube
                          > provided by Dodge.
                          >
                          > Jim Hamilton
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
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