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More on batteries

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  • Ron Mitchell
    I checked the RV s charging system over the weekend. My converter puts out 3.75 amps to the batteries, when on shore power. That s a little more than a trickle
    Message 1 of 21 , Jun 29, 2010
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      I checked the RV's charging system over the weekend. My converter
      puts out 3.75 amps to the batteries, when on shore power. That's a
      little more than a trickle charge (usually around 2 amps), but it
      shouldn't be enough to boil the batteries. I'll check again, since I
      didn't think about it at the time, but I don't think it tapers off,
      since the current is so low. A good charger will taper down to 1-2
      amps, when the battery is fully charged.

      I think the best course of action is to check the electrolyte level
      every spring and fall and top it off with distilled water. Make sure
      the batteries are fully charged, before going into storage for the
      winter. I bought an inexpensive "battery maintainer", which puts out
      about 1 amp, to keep the batteries in a fully charged state. I'll use
      that over the winter to keep them up.

      Ron
      76 Coachmen
    • mcolie
      Ron, Coachman has made many different models. You do not say which yours is and a description would help - too. Any charge current greater than the internal
      Message 2 of 21 , Jun 29, 2010
      • 0 Attachment
        Ron,

        Coachman has made many different models. You do not say which yours is and a description would help - too.

        Any charge current greater than the internal leakage will cause the batteries to outgas (boil). There need not be any heat notable. And Yes. 3.75amps is probably too much, unless it has been modified to carry an 8D.

        The best bet is to shop for a good converter that does a three or four stage charge. Progressive Dynamics and Iota are two that come to mind. Get one and install it and keep your batteries in good shape for a very long time.

        Matt

        --- In classicrv@yahoogroups.com, Ron Mitchell <rmitchel@...> wrote:
        >
        > I checked the RV's charging system over the weekend. My converter
        > puts out 3.75 amps to the batteries, when on shore power. That's a
        > little more than a trickle charge (usually around 2 amps), but it
        > shouldn't be enough to boil the batteries. I'll check again, since I
        > didn't think about it at the time, but I don't think it tapers off,
        > since the current is so low. A good charger will taper down to 1-2
        > amps, when the battery is fully charged.
        >
        > I think the best course of action is to check the electrolyte level
        > every spring and fall and top it off with distilled water. Make sure
        > the batteries are fully charged, before going into storage for the
        > winter. I bought an inexpensive "battery maintainer", which puts out
        > about 1 amp, to keep the batteries in a fully charged state. I'll use
        > that over the winter to keep them up.
        >
        > Ron
        > 76 Coachmen
        >
      • james kendall
        The other thing that will boil your battery is if the diodes aren t doing the job and you are getting too much AC or ripple in the current. You need a cheap
        Message 3 of 21 , Jun 29, 2010
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          The other thing that will boil your battery is if the diodes aren't doing the job and you are getting too much AC or ripple in the current.

          You need a cheap Oscilloscope to check this.

          Perhaps a good meter with an AC scale, but you might kill the rectifier in it.

          Jim


          --- On Tue, 6/29/10, mcolie <mattcolie@...> wrote:

          From: mcolie <mattcolie@...>
          Subject: [classicrv] Re: More on batteries
          To: classicrv@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Tuesday, June 29, 2010, 1:09 PM







           









          Ron,



          Coachman has made many different models. You do not say which yours is and a description would help - too.



          Any charge current greater than the internal leakage will cause the batteries to outgas (boil). There need not be any heat notable. And Yes. 3.75amps is probably too much, unless it has been modified to carry an 8D.



          The best bet is to shop for a good converter that does a three or four stage charge. Progressive Dynamics and Iota are two that come to mind. Get one and install it and keep your batteries in good shape for a very long time.



          Matt



          --- In classicrv@yahoogroups.com, Ron Mitchell <rmitchel@...> wrote:

          >

          > I checked the RV's charging system over the weekend. My converter

          > puts out 3.75 amps to the batteries, when on shore power. That's a

          > little more than a trickle charge (usually around 2 amps), but it

          > shouldn't be enough to boil the batteries. I'll check again, since I

          > didn't think about it at the time, but I don't think it tapers off,

          > since the current is so low. A good charger will taper down to 1-2

          > amps, when the battery is fully charged.

          >

          > I think the best course of action is to check the electrolyte level

          > every spring and fall and top it off with distilled water. Make sure

          > the batteries are fully charged, before going into storage for the

          > winter. I bought an inexpensive "battery maintainer", which puts out

          > about 1 amp, to keep the batteries in a fully charged state. I'll use

          > that over the winter to keep them up.

          >

          > Ron

          > 76 Coachmen

          >

























          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Ron Mitchell
          Well, what I have is a 1976 Coachmen 24 President Class A on a late 1975 Dodge M-500 chassis. I have a couple of pictures posted, if you want to take a look.
          Message 4 of 21 , Jun 29, 2010
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            Well, what I have is a 1976 Coachmen 24'
            President Class A on a late 1975 Dodge M-500
            chassis. I have a couple of pictures posted, if
            you want to take a look. It's as big as I can fit
            up the driveway. Any longer and it wouldn't make
            the transition from the street to the driveway.
            The street goes down, the driveway goes up. The tailpipe just clears, barely.

            The converter is a Phillips PC-401-A-1 Power
            Converter/Battery Charger. I don't know if it's
            original, but it could be. Input is 120vac/7A,
            output is 12.7vdc@40A, but that output is to the
            main coach circuits. It didn't specify output of the charger.

            I re-checked today and had it wrong. It puts out
            2.75 amps and does trickle down to around 1 amp,
            if fully charged. I have one good and one weak
            battery in there now. I replaced one last year,
            but held off on the other. I probably should have
            done both at the same time. They're both Marine
            Group-29 size 675CCA, pretty big. The new one is
            holding a charge just fine, but the old one is
            weak. I'll charge it overnight, then see what it
            does. Maybe time to replace it, too.

            I actually do have an old oscilloscope. I may try
            to see what is coming out of the charger. I'll
            put that on the list of things to do.

            Ron
            76 Coachmen

            P.S. In looking around for more info on the
            Phillips (which I didn't find), I ran across this
            site for RV Electrical Supplies. I don't know how
            their prices compare, but they have a ton of RV
            electrical stuff. http://www.bestconverter.com/index.html

            At 01:09 PM 06/29/2010, you wrote:
            >
            >
            >Ron,
            >
            >Coachman has made many different models. You do
            >not say which yours is and a description would help - too.
            >
            >Any charge current greater than the internal
            >leakage will cause the batteries to outgas
            >(boil). There need not be any heat notable. And
            >Yes. 3.75amps is probably too much, unless it
            >has been modified to carry an 8D.
            >
            >The best bet is to shop for a good converter
            >that does a three or four stage charge.
            >Progressive Dynamics and Iota are two that come
            >to mind. Get one and install it and keep your
            >batteries in good shape for a very long time.
            >
            >Matt
            >
            >--- In
            ><mailto:classicrv%40yahoogroups.com>classicrv@yahoogroups.com,
            >Ron Mitchell <rmitchel@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > I checked the RV's charging system over the weekend. My converter
            > > puts out 3.75 amps to the batteries, when on shore power. That's a
            > > little more than a trickle charge (usually around 2 amps), but it
            > > shouldn't be enough to boil the batteries. I'll check again, since I
            > > didn't think about it at the time, but I don't think it tapers off,
            > > since the current is so low. A good charger will taper down to 1-2
            > > amps, when the battery is fully charged.
            > >
            > > I think the best course of action is to check the electrolyte level
            > > every spring and fall and top it off with distilled water. Make sure
            > > the batteries are fully charged, before going into storage for the
            > > winter. I bought an inexpensive "battery maintainer", which puts out
            > > about 1 amp, to keep the batteries in a fully charged state. I'll use
            > > that over the winter to keep them up.
            > >
            > > Ron
            > > 76 Coachmen
            > >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • JerryK
            Ron, are the batteries connected together (parallel) or are they on a selector switch where you choose which battery to use and charge?  In any event one
            Message 5 of 21 , Jun 29, 2010
            • 0 Attachment
              Ron, are the batteries connected together (parallel) or are they on a selector switch where you choose which battery to use and charge?  In any event one should not connect (parallel) a good battery to a not so good battery.  The bad battery will drain the good battery and reduce the good battery's lifespan.
              JerryK




              ________________________________
              From: Ron Mitchell <rmitchel@...>
              To: classicrv@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tue, June 29, 2010 6:34:40 PM
              Subject: Re: [classicrv] Re: More on batteries

               
              Well, what I have is a 1976 Coachmen 24'
              President Class A on a late 1975 Dodge M-500
              chassis. I have a couple of pictures posted, if
              you want to take a look. It's as big as I can fit
              up the driveway. Any longer and it wouldn't make
              the transition from the street to the driveway.
              The street goes down, the driveway goes up. The tailpipe just clears, barely.

              The converter is a Phillips PC-401-A-1 Power
              Converter/Battery Charger. I don't know if it's
              original, but it could be. Input is 120vac/7A,
              output is 12.7vdc@40A, but that output is to the
              main coach circuits. It didn't specify output of the charger.

              I re-checked today and had it wrong. It puts out
              2.75 amps and does trickle down to around 1 amp,
              if fully charged. I have one good and one weak
              battery in there now. I replaced one last year,
              but held off on the other. I probably should have
              done both at the same time. They're both Marine
              Group-29 size 675CCA, pretty big. The new one is
              holding a charge just fine, but the old one is
              weak. I'll charge it overnight, then see what it
              does. Maybe time to replace it, too.

              I actually do have an old oscilloscope. I may try
              to see what is coming out of the charger. I'll
              put that on the list of things to do.

              Ron
              76 Coachmen

              P.S. In looking around for more info on the
              Phillips (which I didn't find), I ran across this
              site for RV Electrical Supplies. I don't know how
              their prices compare, but they have a ton of RV
              electrical stuff. http://www.bestconverter.com/index.html

              At 01:09 PM 06/29/2010, you wrote:
              >
              >
              >Ron,
              >
              >Coachman has made many different models. You do
              >not say which yours is and a description would help - too.
              >
              >Any charge current greater than the internal
              >leakage will cause the batteries to outgas
              >(boil). There need not be any heat notable. And
              >Yes. 3.75amps is probably too much, unless it
              >has been modified to carry an 8D.
              >
              >The best bet is to shop for a good converter
              >that does a three or four stage charge.
              >Progressive Dynamics and Iota are two that come
              >to mind. Get one and install it and keep your
              >batteries in good shape for a very long time.
              >
              >Matt
              >
              >--- In
              ><mailto:classicrv%40yahoogroups.com>classicrv@yahoogroups.com,
              >Ron Mitchell <rmitchel@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > I checked the RV's charging system over the weekend. My converter
              > > puts out 3.75 amps to the batteries, when on shore power. That's a
              > > little more than a trickle charge (usually around 2 amps), but it
              > > shouldn't be enough to boil the batteries. I'll check again, since I
              > > didn't think about it at the time, but I don't think it tapers off,
              > > since the current is so low. A good charger will taper down to 1-2
              > > amps, when the battery is fully charged.
              > >
              > > I think the best course of action is to check the electrolyte level
              > > every spring and fall and top it off with distilled water. Make sure
              > > the batteries are fully charged, before going into storage for the
              > > winter. I bought an inexpensive "battery maintainer", which puts out
              > > about 1 amp, to keep the batteries in a fully charged state. I'll use
              > > that over the winter to keep them up.
              > >
              > > Ron
              > > 76 Coachmen
              > >
              >
              >

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Ron Mitchell
              Jerry, I have a manual switch to isolate the Chassis and Coach batteries. It s either separate (off) or both. I only switch it on when the charger is on or the
              Message 6 of 21 , Jun 29, 2010
              • 0 Attachment
                Jerry,
                I have a manual switch to isolate the Chassis
                and Coach batteries. It's either separate (off)
                or both. I only switch it on when the charger is
                on or the coach is running, then it's off. That's
                part of the camping check list: #1 - Set selector
                switch to OFF. I had to get a jump start once
                because I didn't do that. Lesson learned.

                It needs to be on to charge both batteries. I
                think it's the Coach battery that is weak, but I
                haven't really tested that part. Unfortunately,
                there's no way to direct the charger to one
                battery or the other (also on my to-do list).
                What I really need to do is crawl under there and
                trace the cables (that's on the list, too). Then
                I'll know which is which. Then I could rig up a
                heavy-duty toggle switch to go one way or the
                other for the charger. With that and the main
                selector switch, I could charge either or both.

                I do know about the good battery, bad battery
                thing. I killed a battery some years back by not
                heeding that advice. It only lasted 6 months,
                before biting the dust. I then had to replace
                both, that's why I think I should have replaced
                both last year. But, since I keep the switch off, the new one is fine.

                I've spent so much time and effort on the
                mechanicals and getting it all sealed up that the
                electrical and interior has been mostly ignored.
                If it wasn't broke, I didn't fix it. It basically
                works, if you follow some simple rules. Hey, what
                do expect for a 35 year old beast? What's that in RV years??

                Thanks for the tips. As always this site is a
                wealth of information and insights.

                Ron
                76 Coachmen

                At 08:15 PM 06/29/2010, you wrote:
                >
                >
                >Ron, are the batteries connected together
                >(parallel) or are they on a selector switch
                >where you choose which battery to use and
                >charge? In any event one should not connect
                >(parallel) a good battery to a not so good
                >battery. The bad battery will drain the good
                >battery and reduce the good battery's lifespan.
                >JerryK
                >
                >________________________________
                >From: Ron Mitchell <<mailto:rmitchel%40fred.net>rmitchel@...>
                >To: <mailto:classicrv%40yahoogroups.com>classicrv@yahoogroups.com
                >Sent: Tue, June 29, 2010 6:34:40 PM
                >Subject: Re: [classicrv] Re: More on batteries
                >

                >Well, what I have is a 1976 Coachmen 24'
                >President Class A on a late 1975 Dodge M-500
                >chassis. I have a couple of pictures posted, if
                >you want to take a look. It's as big as I can fit
                >up the driveway. Any longer and it wouldn't make
                >the transition from the street to the driveway.
                >The street goes down, the driveway goes up. The tailpipe just clears, barely.
                >
                >The converter is a Phillips PC-401-A-1 Power
                >Converter/Battery Charger. I don't know if it's
                >original, but it could be. Input is 120vac/7A,
                >output is 12.7vdc@40A, but that output is to the
                >main coach circuits. It didn't specify output of the charger.
                >
                >I re-checked today and had it wrong. It puts out
                >2.75 amps and does trickle down to around 1 amp,
                >if fully charged. I have one good and one weak
                >battery in there now. I replaced one last year,
                >but held off on the other. I probably should have
                >done both at the same time. They're both Marine
                >Group-29 size 675CCA, pretty big. The new one is
                >holding a charge just fine, but the old one is
                >weak. I'll charge it overnight, then see what it
                >does. Maybe time to replace it, too.
                >
                >I actually do have an old oscilloscope. I may try
                >to see what is coming out of the charger. I'll
                >put that on the list of things to do.
                >
                >Ron
                >76 Coachmen
                >
                >P.S. In looking around for more info on the
                >Phillips (which I didn't find), I ran across this
                >site for RV Electrical Supplies. I don't know how
                >their prices compare, but they have a ton of RV
                >electrical stuff.
                ><http://www.bestconverter.com/index.html>http://www.bestconverter.com/index.html
                >
                >At 01:09 PM 06/29/2010, you wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > >Ron,
                > >
                > >Coachman has made many different models. You do
                > >not say which yours is and a description would help - too.
                > >
                > >Any charge current greater than the internal
                > >leakage will cause the batteries to outgas
                > >(boil). There need not be any heat notable. And
                > >Yes. 3.75amps is probably too much, unless it
                > >has been modified to carry an 8D.
                > >
                > >The best bet is to shop for a good converter
                > >that does a three or four stage charge.
                > >Progressive Dynamics and Iota are two that come
                > >to mind. Get one and install it and keep your
                > >batteries in good shape for a very long time.
                > >
                > >Matt
                > >
                > >--- In
                > ><mailto:classicrv%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:cla
                > ssicrv%40yahoogroups.com>classicrv@yahoogroups.com,
                > >Ron Mitchell <rmitchel@...> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > I checked the RV's charging system over the weekend. My converter
                > > > puts out 3.75 amps to the batteries, when on shore power. That's a
                > > > little more than a trickle charge (usually around 2 amps), but it
                > > > shouldn't be enough to boil the batteries. I'll check again, since I
                > > > didn't think about it at the time, but I don't think it tapers off,
                > > > since the current is so low. A good charger will taper down to 1-2
                > > > amps, when the battery is fully charged.
                > > >
                > > > I think the best course of action is to check the electrolyte level
                > > > every spring and fall and top it off with distilled water. Make sure
                > > > the batteries are fully charged, before going into storage for the
                > > > winter. I bought an inexpensive "battery maintainer", which puts out
                > > > about 1 amp, to keep the batteries in a fully charged state. I'll use
                > > > that over the winter to keep them up.
                > > >
                > > > Ron
                > > > 76 Coachmen
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • JerryK
                Ron, I m not basing this on any facts but my guess is your converter is charging your house battery and your alternator is charging your coach battery. 
                Message 7 of 21 , Jun 29, 2010
                • 0 Attachment
                  Ron,
                  I'm not basing this on any facts but my guess is your converter is charging your house battery and your alternator is charging your coach battery.  Unless you have them switched together, then "whatever" is charging both batteries.
                  JerryK




                  ________________________________
                  From: Ron Mitchell <rmitchel@...>
                  To: classicrv@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Tue, June 29, 2010 9:54:45 PM
                  Subject: Re: [classicrv] Re: More on batteries

                   
                  Jerry,
                  I have a manual switch to isolate the Chassis
                  and Coach batteries. It's either separate (off)
                  or both. I only switch it on when the charger is
                  on or the coach is running, then it's off. That's
                  part of the camping check list: #1 - Set selector
                  switch to OFF. I had to get a jump start once
                  because I didn't do that. Lesson learned.

                  It needs to be on to charge both batteries. I
                  think it's the Coach battery that is weak, but I
                  haven't really tested that part. Unfortunately,
                  there's no way to direct the charger to one
                  battery or the other (also on my to-do list).
                  What I really need to do is crawl under there and
                  trace the cables (that's on the list, too). Then
                  I'll know which is which. Then I could rig up a
                  heavy-duty toggle switch to go one way or the
                  other for the charger. With that and the main
                  selector switch, I could charge either or both.

                  I do know about the good battery, bad battery
                  thing. I killed a battery some years back by not
                  heeding that advice. It only lasted 6 months,
                  before biting the dust. I then had to replace
                  both, that's why I think I should have replaced
                  both last year. But, since I keep the switch off, the new one is fine.

                  I've spent so much time and effort on the
                  mechanicals and getting it all sealed up that the
                  electrical and interior has been mostly ignored.
                  If it wasn't broke, I didn't fix it. It basically
                  works, if you follow some simple rules. Hey, what
                  do expect for a 35 year old beast? What's that in RV years??

                  Thanks for the tips. As always this site is a
                  wealth of information and insights.

                  Ron
                  76 Coachmen

                  At 08:15 PM 06/29/2010, you wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >Ron, are the batteries connected together
                  >(parallel) or are they on a selector switch
                  >where you choose which battery to use and
                  >charge? In any event one should not connect
                  >(parallel) a good battery to a not so good
                  >battery. The bad battery will drain the good
                  >battery and reduce the good battery's lifespan.
                  >JerryK
                  >
                  >________________________________
                  >From: Ron Mitchell <<mailto:rmitchel%40fred.net>rmitchel@...>
                  >To: <mailto:classicrv%40yahoogroups.com>classicrv@yahoogroups.com
                  >Sent: Tue, June 29, 2010 6:34:40 PM
                  >Subject: Re: [classicrv] Re: More on batteries
                  >

                  >Well, what I have is a 1976 Coachmen 24'
                  >President Class A on a late 1975 Dodge M-500
                  >chassis. I have a couple of pictures posted, if
                  >you want to take a look. It's as big as I can fit
                  >up the driveway. Any longer and it wouldn't make
                  >the transition from the street to the driveway.
                  >The street goes down, the driveway goes up. The tailpipe just clears, barely.
                  >
                  >The converter is a Phillips PC-401-A-1 Power
                  >Converter/Battery Charger. I don't know if it's
                  >original, but it could be. Input is 120vac/7A,
                  >output is 12.7vdc@40A, but that output is to the
                  >main coach circuits. It didn't specify output of the charger.
                  >
                  >I re-checked today and had it wrong. It puts out
                  >2.75 amps and does trickle down to around 1 amp,
                  >if fully charged. I have one good and one weak
                  >battery in there now. I replaced one last year,
                  >but held off on the other. I probably should have
                  >done both at the same time. They're both Marine
                  >Group-29 size 675CCA, pretty big. The new one is
                  >holding a charge just fine, but the old one is
                  >weak. I'll charge it overnight, then see what it
                  >does. Maybe time to replace it, too.
                  >
                  >I actually do have an old oscilloscope. I may try
                  >to see what is coming out of the charger. I'll
                  >put that on the list of things to do.
                  >
                  >Ron
                  >76 Coachmen
                  >
                  >P.S. In looking around for more info on the
                  >Phillips (which I didn't find), I ran across this
                  >site for RV Electrical Supplies. I don't know how
                  >their prices compare, but they have a ton of RV
                  >electrical stuff.
                  ><http://www.bestconverter.com/index.html>http://www.bestconverter.com/index.html
                  >
                  >At 01:09 PM 06/29/2010, you wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >Ron,
                  > >
                  > >Coachman has made many different models. You do
                  > >not say which yours is and a description would help - too.
                  > >
                  > >Any charge current greater than the internal
                  > >leakage will cause the batteries to outgas
                  > >(boil). There need not be any heat notable. And
                  > >Yes. 3.75amps is probably too much, unless it
                  > >has been modified to carry an 8D.
                  > >
                  > >The best bet is to shop for a good converter
                  > >that does a three or four stage charge.
                  > >Progressive Dynamics and Iota are two that come
                  > >to mind. Get one and install it and keep your
                  > >batteries in good shape for a very long time.
                  > >
                  > >Matt
                  > >
                  > >--- In
                  > ><mailto:classicrv%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:cla
                  > ssicrv%40yahoogroups.com>classicrv@yahoogroups.com,
                  > >Ron Mitchell <rmitchel@...> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > I checked the RV's charging system over the weekend. My converter
                  > > > puts out 3.75 amps to the batteries, when on shore power. That's a
                  > > > little more than a trickle charge (usually around 2 amps), but it
                  > > > shouldn't be enough to boil the batteries. I'll check again, since I
                  > > > didn't think about it at the time, but I don't think it tapers off,
                  > > > since the current is so low. A good charger will taper down to 1-2
                  > > > amps, when the battery is fully charged.
                  > > >
                  > > > I think the best course of action is to check the electrolyte level
                  > > > every spring and fall and top it off with distilled water. Make sure
                  > > > the batteries are fully charged, before going into storage for the
                  > > > winter. I bought an inexpensive "battery maintainer", which puts out
                  > > > about 1 amp, to keep the batteries in a fully charged state. I'll use
                  > > > that over the winter to keep them up.
                  > > >
                  > > > Ron
                  > > > 76 Coachmen
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Ron Mitchell
                  Jerry, I believe that is correct. Ron 76 Coachmen ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  Message 8 of 21 , Jun 30, 2010
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Jerry,
                    I believe that is correct.

                    Ron
                    76 Coachmen

                    At 11:00 PM 06/29/2010, you wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >Ron,
                    >I'm not basing this on any facts but my guess is
                    >your converter is charging your house battery
                    >and your alternator is charging your coach
                    >battery. Unless you have them switched
                    >together, then "whatever" is charging both batteries.
                    >JerryK
                    >
                    >________________________________
                    >From: Ron Mitchell <<mailto:rmitchel%40fred.net>rmitchel@...>
                    >To: <mailto:classicrv%40yahoogroups.com>classicrv@yahoogroups.com
                    >Sent: Tue, June 29, 2010 9:54:45 PM
                    >Subject: Re: [classicrv] Re: More on batteries
                    >

                    >Jerry,
                    >I have a manual switch to isolate the Chassis
                    >and Coach batteries. It's either separate (off)
                    >or both. I only switch it on when the charger is
                    >on or the coach is running, then it's off. That's
                    >part of the camping check list: #1 - Set selector
                    >switch to OFF. I had to get a jump start once
                    >because I didn't do that. Lesson learned.
                    >
                    >It needs to be on to charge both batteries. I
                    >think it's the Coach battery that is weak, but I
                    >haven't really tested that part. Unfortunately,
                    >there's no way to direct the charger to one
                    >battery or the other (also on my to-do list).
                    >What I really need to do is crawl under there and
                    >trace the cables (that's on the list, too). Then
                    >I'll know which is which. Then I could rig up a
                    >heavy-duty toggle switch to go one way or the
                    >other for the charger. With that and the main
                    >selector switch, I could charge either or both.
                    >
                    >I do know about the good battery, bad battery
                    >thing. I killed a battery some years back by not
                    >heeding that advice. It only lasted 6 months,
                    >before biting the dust. I then had to replace
                    >both, that's why I think I should have replaced
                    >both last year. But, since I keep the switch off, the new one is fine.
                    >
                    >I've spent so much time and effort on the
                    >mechanicals and getting it all sealed up that the
                    >electrical and interior has been mostly ignored.
                    >If it wasn't broke, I didn't fix it. It basically
                    >works, if you follow some simple rules. Hey, what
                    >do expect for a 35 year old beast? What's that in RV years??
                    >
                    >Thanks for the tips. As always this site is a
                    >wealth of information and insights.
                    >
                    >Ron
                    >76 Coachmen
                    >
                    >At 08:15 PM 06/29/2010, you wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >Ron, are the batteries connected together
                    > >(parallel) or are they on a selector switch
                    > >where you choose which battery to use and
                    > >charge? In any event one should not connect
                    > >(parallel) a good battery to a not so good
                    > >battery. The bad battery will drain the good
                    > >battery and reduce the good battery's lifespan.
                    > >JerryK
                    > >
                    > >________________________________
                    > >From: Ron Mitchell
                    > <<mailto:rmitchel%40fred.net><mailto:rmitchel%40fred.net>rmitchel@...>
                    > >To:
                    > <mailto:classicrv%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:classicrv%40yahoogroups.com>classicrv@yahoogroups.com
                    > >Sent: Tue, June 29, 2010 6:34:40 PM
                    > >Subject: Re: [classicrv] Re: More on batteries
                    > >
                    > >Â
                    > >Well, what I have is a 1976 Coachmen 24'
                    > >President Class A on a late 1975 Dodge M-500
                    > >chassis. I have a couple of pictures posted, if
                    > >you want to take a look. It's as big as I can fit
                    > >up the driveway. Any longer and it wouldn't make
                    > >the transition from the street to the driveway.
                    > >The street goes down, the driveway goes up.
                    > The tailpipe just clears, barely.
                    > >
                    > >The converter is a Phillips PC-401-A-1 Power
                    > >Converter/Battery Charger. I don't know if it's
                    > >original, but it could be. Input is 120vac/7A,
                    > >output is 12.7vdc@40A, but that output is to the
                    > >main coach circuits. It didn't specify output of the charger.
                    > >
                    > >I re-checked today and had it wrong. It puts out
                    > >2.75 amps and does trickle down to around 1 amp,
                    > >if fully charged. I have one good and one weak
                    > >battery in there now. I replaced one last year,
                    > >but held off on the other. I probably should have
                    > >done both at the same time. They're both Marine
                    > >Group-29 size 675CCA, pretty big. The new one is
                    > >holding a charge just fine, but the old one is
                    > >weak. I'll charge it overnight, then see what it
                    > >does. Maybe time to replace it, too.
                    > >
                    > >I actually do have an old oscilloscope. I may try
                    > >to see what is coming out of the charger. I'll
                    > >put that on the list of things to do.
                    > >
                    > >Ron
                    > >76 Coachmen
                    > >
                    > >P.S. In looking around for more info on the
                    > >Phillips (which I didn't find), I ran across this
                    > >site for RV Electrical Supplies. I don't know how
                    > >their prices compare, but they have a ton of RV
                    > >electrical stuff.
                    > ><<http://www.bestconverter.com/index.html>http:
                    > //www.bestconverter.com/index.html>http://www.bestconverter.com/index.html
                    > >
                    > >At 01:09 PM 06/29/2010, you wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >Ron,
                    > > >
                    > > >Coachman has made many different models. You do
                    > > >not say which yours is and a description would help - too.
                    > > >
                    > > >Any charge current greater than the internal
                    > > >leakage will cause the batteries to outgas
                    > > >(boil). There need not be any heat notable. And
                    > > >Yes. 3.75amps is probably too much, unless it
                    > > >has been modified to carry an 8D.
                    > > >
                    > > >The best bet is to shop for a good converter
                    > > >that does a three or four stage charge.
                    > > >Progressive Dynamics and Iota are two that come
                    > > >to mind. Get one and install it and keep your
                    > > >batteries in good shape for a very long time.
                    > > >
                    > > >Matt
                    > > >
                    > > >--- In
                    > > ><mailto:classicrv%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:cla
                    > >
                    > ssicrv%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:classicrv%40yahoogroups.com>classicrv@yahoogroups.com,
                    > > >Ron Mitchell <rmitchel@...> wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I checked the RV's charging system over the weekend. My converter
                    > > > > puts out 3.75 amps to the batteries, when on shore power. That's a
                    > > > > little more than a trickle charge (usually around 2 amps), but it
                    > > > > shouldn't be enough to boil the batteries. I'll check again, since I
                    > > > > didn't think about it at the time, but I don't think it tapers off,
                    > > > > since the current is so low. A good charger will taper down to 1-2
                    > > > > amps, when the battery is fully charged.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I think the best course of action is to check the electrolyte level
                    > > > > every spring and fall and top it off with distilled water. Make sure
                    > > > > the batteries are fully charged, before going into storage for the
                    > > > > winter. I bought an inexpensive "battery maintainer", which puts out
                    > > > > about 1 amp, to keep the batteries in a fully charged state. I'll use
                    > > > > that over the winter to keep them up.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Ron
                    > > > > 76 Coachmen
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • kevinkeef
                    Topping a battery off with water eventually you have more water then acid in the battery, I would suggest buying a 1-2gal box of battery acid to top off
                    Message 9 of 21 , Jun 30, 2010
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                      Topping a battery off with water"" eventually you have more water then acid in the battery, I would suggest buying a 1-2gal box of battery acid to top off your batteries, it would prolong the life of the battery, as always be safe while handling the acid, wear long sleaves, rubber gloves, and eye protection.

                      Kevin



                      --- In classicrv@yahoogroups.com, Ron Mitchell <rmitchel@...> wrote:

                      >
                      > I think the best course of action is to check the electrolyte level
                      > every spring and fall and top it off with distilled water. Make sure
                      > the batteries are fully charged, before going into storage for the
                      > winter. I bought an inexpensive "battery maintainer", which puts out
                      > about 1 amp, to keep the batteries in a fully charged state. I'll use
                      > that over the winter to keep them up.
                      >
                      > Ron
                      > 76 Coachmen
                      >
                    • ez zinger
                      Kevin, You comments are contradictory to those of battery manufacturers. Here is a Battery FAQ that will explain everything you need to know about all types
                      Message 10 of 21 , Jun 30, 2010
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                        Kevin, You comments are contradictory to those of battery manufacturers.
                        Here is a Battery FAQ that will explain everything you need to know about all types of batteries and their applications.
                        http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm

                        hope this helps
                        Eric

                        --- On Wed, 6/30/10, kevinkeef <kevinkeef@...> wrote:

                        > From: kevinkeef <kevinkeef@...>
                        > Subject: [classicrv] Re: More on batteries
                        > To: classicrv@yahoogroups.com
                        > Date: Wednesday, June 30, 2010, 9:17 PM
                        > Topping a battery off with water""
                        > eventually you have more water then  acid in the
                        > battery, I would suggest buying a 1-2gal box of battery acid
                        > to top off your batteries, it would prolong the life of the
                        > battery, as always be safe while handling the acid, wear
                        > long sleaves, rubber gloves, and eye protection.
                        >
                        > Kevin
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In classicrv@yahoogroups.com,
                        > Ron Mitchell <rmitchel@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > >
                        > > I think the best course of action is to check the
                        > electrolyte level
                        > > every spring and fall and top it off with distilled
                        > water. Make sure
                        > > the batteries are fully charged, before going into
                        > storage for the
                        > > winter. I bought an inexpensive "battery maintainer",
                        > which puts out
                        > > about 1 amp, to keep the batteries in a fully charged
                        > state. I'll use
                        > > that over the winter to keep them up.
                        > >
                        > > Ron
                        > > 76 Coachmen
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >     classicrv-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • Jerry Noone
                        The site offered by ez zinger is an excellent source of battery info that I have not only used many times for reference, but many things on the site that I
                        Message 11 of 21 , Jul 1, 2010
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                          The site offered by "ez zinger" is an excellent source of battery info that I have not only used many times for reference, but many things on the site that I had doubts about were confirmed when I contacted other sources. Seems the folks at windsun pretty much know their stuff.




                          ________________________________
                          From: ez zinger <ezzinger@...>
                          To: classicrv@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Wed, June 30, 2010 11:48:15 PM
                          Subject: Re: [classicrv] Re: More on batteries


                          Kevin, You comments are contradictory to those of battery manufacturers.
                          Here is a Battery FAQ that will explain everything you need to know about all types of batteries and their applications.
                          http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm




                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • GeorgeG
                          Keven , The acid does not evorapate , just the water so adding just water is all you need to do. Is it like a distilling process. If you start adding battery
                          Message 12 of 21 , Jul 1, 2010
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                            Keven ,
                            The acid does not evorapate , just the water so adding just water is all you need to do. Is it like a distilling process. If you start adding battery electrolite you will have too astrong a mix and it will begin to destroy the plates.
                            GEORGE!!

                            --- In classicrv@yahoogroups.com, "kevinkeef" <kevinkeef@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Topping a battery off with water"" eventually you have more water then acid in the battery, I would suggest buying a 1-2gal box of battery acid to top off your batteries, it would prolong the life of the battery, as always be safe while handling the acid, wear long sleaves, rubber gloves, and eye protection.
                            >
                            > Kevin
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In classicrv@yahoogroups.com, Ron Mitchell <rmitchel@> wrote:
                            >
                            > >
                            > > I think the best course of action is to check the electrolyte level
                            > > every spring and fall and top it off with distilled water. Make sure
                            > > the batteries are fully charged, before going into storage for the
                            > > winter. I bought an inexpensive "battery maintainer", which puts out
                            > > about 1 amp, to keep the batteries in a fully charged state. I'll use
                            > > that over the winter to keep them up.
                            > >
                            > > Ron
                            > > 76 Coachmen
                            > >
                            >
                          • kevinkeef
                            Thanks for pointing this out Eric, your saying that what I said is in contrary to what the manufacturers say, and they are in the business of selling
                            Message 13 of 21 , Jul 1, 2010
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                              Thanks for pointing this out Eric, your saying that what I said is in contrary to what the manufacturers say, and they are in the business of selling batteries, the more they sell,,,,,

                              I dont want to sound like I am on a rant here but in this day and age batteries are not cheap, and the longer you can keep one in tip top performance,,,

                              Look on the site that you sent allmost at the bottom of the page under the heading of "Battery Charging Voltages and Currants", 3rd paragraph, Never Add Acid to a battery except to replace spilled liquid. Distilled or dionized water should be used ect. Then further down the page it says under "Mini Factoid" 2nd para. that Batteries should be watered after charging unless plates are exposed,,,,

                              If the water level is so low that the plates are exposed it is the same as if you have spilled liquid from the battery,,,refill it with acid,,,if the liquid level is down only minimaly then go ahead and use water.

                              Above mini factoid is "Battery Aging" it says:

                              As batteries age, their maintenance requirements change. This means longer charging time and/or higher finish rate (higher amperage at the end of the charge). Usually older batteries need to be watered more often. And, their capacity decreases.

                              Why do you think there capacity decreases, could it have something to do with the fact that by the time they are 2-3yrs old 60-70 percent of the acid has been replaced with water. They want you to only use water so that the batteries wear out faster so that you have to buy more batteries, so that they can manufacture more of them to sell, that is why they came out with these closed cell batteries so that you can not maintain them, they are only good for a few yrs then ppfft you have to buy a new one, heck some of them only last 1 yr.

                              Im not saying that you should carry a box of acid around in your RV with you, while you are on the road then use the water.

                              Another point about battery life that some may not know,,,Never set a battery down on concrete for a long length of time,(a few minutes will not hurt), it will kill the charge and eventually kill the battery itself, set it on a piece of wood, a 1x will do for short term, but use a 2x for longer term.

                              Kevin





                              --- In classicrv@yahoogroups.com, ez zinger <ezzinger@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Kevin, You comments are contradictory to those of battery manufacturers.
                              > Here is a Battery FAQ that will explain everything you need to know about all types of batteries and their applications.
                              > http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm
                              >
                              > hope this helps
                              > Eric
                              >
                              > --- On Wed, 6/30/10, kevinkeef <kevinkeef@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > > From: kevinkeef <kevinkeef@...>
                              > > Subject: [classicrv] Re: More on batteries
                              > > To: classicrv@yahoogroups.com
                              > > Date: Wednesday, June 30, 2010, 9:17 PM
                              > > Topping a battery off with water""
                              > > eventually you have more water then  acid in the
                              > > battery, I would suggest buying a 1-2gal box of battery acid
                              > > to top off your batteries, it would prolong the life of the
                              > > battery, as always be safe while handling the acid, wear
                              > > long sleaves, rubber gloves, and eye protection.
                              > >
                              > > Kevin
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > --- In classicrv@yahoogroups.com,
                              > > Ron Mitchell <rmitchel@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > >
                              > > > I think the best course of action is to check the
                              > > electrolyte level
                              > > > every spring and fall and top it off with distilled
                              > > water. Make sure
                              > > > the batteries are fully charged, before going into
                              > > storage for the
                              > > > winter. I bought an inexpensive "battery maintainer",
                              > > which puts out
                              > > > about 1 amp, to keep the batteries in a fully charged
                              > > state. I'll use
                              > > > that over the winter to keep them up.
                              > > >
                              > > > Ron
                              > > > 76 Coachmen
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > ------------------------------------
                              > >
                              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >     classicrv-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                            • Jabba Truck
                              This held true for batteries years ago, but has become a myth since battery construction switched to plastic cases.
                              Message 14 of 21 , Jul 2, 2010
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                                This held true for batteries years ago, but has become a myth since battery
                                construction switched to plastic cases.

                                http://www.thebatteryterminal.com/TechTalk_Batteries_on_Concrete.htm
                                http://www.jgdarden.com/batteryfaq/carfaq14.htm#concrete
                                http://www.usatoday.com/tech/columnist/aprilholladay/2004-05-13-wonderquest_x.htm

                                http://www.cartalk.com/content/columns/Archive/1999/November/06.html

                                Of course, it doesn't hurt anything to use the wood spacers if you want to
                                continue doing things the old way.



                                ________________________________
                                From: kevinkeef <kevinkeef@...>
                                To: classicrv@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Fri, July 2, 2010 1:38:15 AM
                                Subject: [classicrv] Re: More on batteries

                                Another point about battery life that some may not know,,,Never set a battery
                                down on concrete for a long length of time,(a few minutes will not hurt), it
                                will kill the charge and eventually kill the battery itself, set it on a piece
                                of wood, a 1x will do for short term, but use a 2x for longer term.

                                Kevin

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Ted Kroll
                                Kevin, Why does setting a battery on concrete hurt it when they sit on steel in the vehicles battery box? How is that ok? Ted ... From:
                                Message 15 of 21 , Jul 2, 2010
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Kevin, Why does setting a battery on concrete hurt it when they sit on steel
                                  in the vehicles battery box? How is that ok?
                                  Ted
                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: classicrv@yahoogroups.com [mailto:classicrv@yahoogroups.com]On
                                  Behalf Of kevinkeef
                                  Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 1:38 AM
                                  To: classicrv@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: [classicrv] Re: More on batteries



                                  Thanks for pointing this out Eric, your saying that what I said is in
                                  contrary to what the manufacturers say, and they are in the business of
                                  selling batteries, the more they sell,,,,,

                                  I dont want to sound like I am on a rant here but in this day and age
                                  batteries are not cheap, and the longer you can keep one in tip top
                                  performance,,,

                                  Look on the site that you sent allmost at the bottom of the page under the
                                  heading of "Battery Charging Voltages and Currants", 3rd paragraph, Never
                                  Add Acid to a battery except to replace spilled liquid. Distilled or
                                  dionized water should be used ect. Then further down the page it says under
                                  "Mini Factoid" 2nd para. that Batteries should be watered after charging
                                  unless plates are exposed,,,,

                                  If the water level is so low that the plates are exposed it is the same as
                                  if you have spilled liquid from the battery,,,refill it with acid,,,if the
                                  liquid level is down only minimaly then go ahead and use water.

                                  Above mini factoid is "Battery Aging" it says:

                                  As batteries age, their maintenance requirements change. This means longer
                                  charging time and/or higher finish rate (higher amperage at the end of the
                                  charge). Usually older batteries need to be watered more often. And, their
                                  capacity decreases.

                                  Why do you think there capacity decreases, could it have something to do
                                  with the fact that by the time they are 2-3yrs old 60-70 percent of the acid
                                  has been replaced with water. They want you to only use water so that the
                                  batteries wear out faster so that you have to buy more batteries, so that
                                  they can manufacture more of them to sell, that is why they came out with
                                  these closed cell batteries so that you can not maintain them, they are only
                                  good for a few yrs then ppfft you have to buy a new one, heck some of them
                                  only last 1 yr.

                                  Im not saying that you should carry a box of acid around in your RV with
                                  you, while you are on the road then use the water.

                                  Another point about battery life that some may not know,,,Never set a
                                  battery down on concrete for a long length of time,(a few minutes will not
                                  hurt), it will kill the charge and eventually kill the battery itself, set
                                  it on a piece of wood, a 1x will do for short term, but use a 2x for longer
                                  term.

                                  Kevin

                                  --- In classicrv@yahoogroups.com, ez zinger <ezzinger@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Kevin, You comments are contradictory to those of battery manufacturers.
                                  > Here is a Battery FAQ that will explain everything you need to know
                                  about all types of batteries and their applications.
                                  > http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm
                                  >
                                  > hope this helps
                                  > Eric
                                  >
                                  > --- On Wed, 6/30/10, kevinkeef <kevinkeef@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > From: kevinkeef <kevinkeef@...>
                                  > > Subject: [classicrv] Re: More on batteries
                                  > > To: classicrv@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > Date: Wednesday, June 30, 2010, 9:17 PM
                                  > > Topping a battery off with water""
                                  > > eventually you have more water then acid in the
                                  > > battery, I would suggest buying a 1-2gal box of battery acid
                                  > > to top off your batteries, it would prolong the life of the
                                  > > battery, as always be safe while handling the acid, wear
                                  > > long sleaves, rubber gloves, and eye protection.
                                  > >
                                  > > Kevin
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In classicrv@yahoogroups.com,
                                  > > Ron Mitchell <rmitchel@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I think the best course of action is to check the
                                  > > electrolyte level
                                  > > > every spring and fall and top it off with distilled
                                  > > water. Make sure
                                  > > > the batteries are fully charged, before going into
                                  > > storage for the
                                  > > > winter. I bought an inexpensive "battery maintainer",
                                  > > which puts out
                                  > > > about 1 amp, to keep the batteries in a fully charged
                                  > > state. I'll use
                                  > > > that over the winter to keep them up.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Ron
                                  > > > 76 Coachmen
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > ------------------------------------
                                  > >
                                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > classicrv-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  >






                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • redwing
                                  many many many years ago batteries had a different case, that old case would bleed juice through it to concrete and at the same rsate as sitting in a car on
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Jul 2, 2010
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                                    many many many years ago batteries had a different case, that old case would bleed juice through it to concrete and at the same rsate as sitting in a car on the steel frame, with todays cases and those made since 1978 it just doesn't happen and like with any battery if neglected by not keeping a maintenance charge on it, it will go dead wether it is on wood or installed in a vehicle on steel, or held with a sky hook. it will just go dead for lack of maintenance caused by the chemical reaction of acid on the lead plates, otherwards sulfation.

                                    heat and vibration can kill a battery no matter where it is stored.

                                    one of the myths of adding water to batteries is that water does evaporate, acid does not, but acid can be boiled out of a battery caused by overcharging. once a year the electrolyte, should be checked using a tester

                                    http://www.machinemart.co.uk/images/library/product/small/01/010324294.jpg

                                    which is the only true way to test the fluid in a battery, this combined with a battery tester
                                    http://www.google.com/products/catalog?oe=UTF-8&q=battery+tester&hl=en&cid=17759109757325985521&ei=tu0tTMm6D5uS2ASW5f2pCA&sa=title&ved=0CAcQ8wIwADgA#p

                                    after chraging the battery will give you the true state of the battery. the plates and grids deterioate naturally in the acid solution in a battery, thats why the average battery only last around 5 years at most.

                                    the difference between car batteries and deep cycles is the plates are thicker on a deep cycle.

                                    the newer style gel batteries demand a new set of maintenace duties, for one they charge at a different rate than regular water acid batteries. in some applications requiring a different charger as well.

                                    heat and lack of maintenance are the #1 killers of batteries.

                                    many think that if they don't use a battery they can go back months later and it will start or run the vehilce or accessories. not so, many of todays vehicles have things that require power even when not being run. one is computers, next is clocks, next is radios. majority of vehicles made now or in the last 20 years may have one of the above that use power when sitting to maintain the channels on a radio, to maintain the settings in a computer, to run a clock and keep time. all can discharge a battery when no maintenance is done.add this to shorts that are not big and viola no power.




                                    --- In classicrv@yahoogroups.com, "Ted Kroll" <tedkroll@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Kevin, Why does setting a battery on concrete hurt it when they sit on steel
                                    > in the vehicles battery box? How is that ok?
                                    > Ted
                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                    > From: classicrv@yahoogroups.com [mailto:classicrv@yahoogroups.com]On
                                    > Behalf Of kevinkeef
                                    > Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 1:38 AM
                                    > To: classicrv@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Subject: [classicrv] Re: More on batteries
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Thanks for pointing this out Eric, your saying that what I said is in
                                    > contrary to what the manufacturers say, and they are in the business of
                                    > selling batteries, the more they sell,,,,,
                                    >
                                    > I dont want to sound like I am on a rant here but in this day and age
                                    > batteries are not cheap, and the longer you can keep one in tip top
                                    > performance,,,
                                    >
                                    > Look on the site that you sent allmost at the bottom of the page under the
                                    > heading of "Battery Charging Voltages and Currants", 3rd paragraph, Never
                                    > Add Acid to a battery except to replace spilled liquid. Distilled or
                                    > dionized water should be used ect. Then further down the page it says under
                                    > "Mini Factoid" 2nd para. that Batteries should be watered after charging
                                    > unless plates are exposed,,,,
                                    >
                                    > If the water level is so low that the plates are exposed it is the same as
                                    > if you have spilled liquid from the battery,,,refill it with acid,,,if the
                                    > liquid level is down only minimaly then go ahead and use water.
                                    >
                                    > Above mini factoid is "Battery Aging" it says:
                                    >
                                    > As batteries age, their maintenance requirements change. This means longer
                                    > charging time and/or higher finish rate (higher amperage at the end of the
                                    > charge). Usually older batteries need to be watered more often. And, their
                                    > capacity decreases.
                                    >
                                    > Why do you think there capacity decreases, could it have something to do
                                    > with the fact that by the time they are 2-3yrs old 60-70 percent of the acid
                                    > has been replaced with water. They want you to only use water so that the
                                    > batteries wear out faster so that you have to buy more batteries, so that
                                    > they can manufacture more of them to sell, that is why they came out with
                                    > these closed cell batteries so that you can not maintain them, they are only
                                    > good for a few yrs then ppfft you have to buy a new one, heck some of them
                                    > only last 1 yr.
                                    >
                                    > Im not saying that you should carry a box of acid around in your RV with
                                    > you, while you are on the road then use the water.
                                    >
                                    > Another point about battery life that some may not know,,,Never set a
                                    > battery down on concrete for a long length of time,(a few minutes will not
                                    > hurt), it will kill the charge and eventually kill the battery itself, set
                                    > it on a piece of wood, a 1x will do for short term, but use a 2x for longer
                                    > term.
                                    >
                                    > Kevin
                                    >
                                    > --- In classicrv@yahoogroups.com, ez zinger <ezzinger@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Kevin, You comments are contradictory to those of battery manufacturers.
                                    > > Here is a Battery FAQ that will explain everything you need to know
                                    > about all types of batteries and their applications.
                                    > > http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm
                                    > >
                                    > > hope this helps
                                    > > Eric
                                    > >
                                    > > --- On Wed, 6/30/10, kevinkeef <kevinkeef@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > > From: kevinkeef <kevinkeef@>
                                    > > > Subject: [classicrv] Re: More on batteries
                                    > > > To: classicrv@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > > Date: Wednesday, June 30, 2010, 9:17 PM
                                    > > > Topping a battery off with water""
                                    > > > eventually you have more water then acid in the
                                    > > > battery, I would suggest buying a 1-2gal box of battery acid
                                    > > > to top off your batteries, it would prolong the life of the
                                    > > > battery, as always be safe while handling the acid, wear
                                    > > > long sleaves, rubber gloves, and eye protection.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Kevin
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > --- In classicrv@yahoogroups.com,
                                    > > > Ron Mitchell <rmitchel@> wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > I think the best course of action is to check the
                                    > > > electrolyte level
                                    > > > > every spring and fall and top it off with distilled
                                    > > > water. Make sure
                                    > > > > the batteries are fully charged, before going into
                                    > > > storage for the
                                    > > > > winter. I bought an inexpensive "battery maintainer",
                                    > > > which puts out
                                    > > > > about 1 amp, to keep the batteries in a fully charged
                                    > > > state. I'll use
                                    > > > > that over the winter to keep them up.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Ron
                                    > > > > 76 Coachmen
                                    > > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > ------------------------------------
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > classicrv-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                  • redwing
                                    you are right never add acid to a battery unless you have a tester that says the acid level is low. and it takes some experience to know how much to add in the
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Jul 2, 2010
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      you are right never add acid to a battery unless you have a tester that says the acid level is low. and it takes some experience to know how much to add in the first place to stop the battery from erupting in your face during the time you add acid when needed. generally you would never have to add acid unless the battery was turned over and it spilled out or the battery was overcharged, and boiled out. plain clean water with no added minerals will restore the level in batteries. generally tho if you have boiled out a battery and exposed the plates to air, this can sometimes ruin a battery in the first place and no amount of acid or water will fix it.

                                      --- In classicrv@yahoogroups.com, ez zinger <ezzinger@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Kevin, You comments are contradictory to those of battery manufacturers.
                                      > Here is a Battery FAQ that will explain everything you need to know about all types of batteries and their applications.
                                      > http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm
                                      >
                                      > hope this helps
                                      > Eric
                                      >
                                      > --- On Wed, 6/30/10, kevinkeef <kevinkeef@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > From: kevinkeef <kevinkeef@...>
                                      > > Subject: [classicrv] Re: More on batteries
                                      > > To: classicrv@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > Date: Wednesday, June 30, 2010, 9:17 PM
                                      > > Topping a battery off with water""
                                      > > eventually you have more water then  acid in the
                                      > > battery, I would suggest buying a 1-2gal box of battery acid
                                      > > to top off your batteries, it would prolong the life of the
                                      > > battery, as always be safe while handling the acid, wear
                                      > > long sleaves, rubber gloves, and eye protection.
                                      > >
                                      > > Kevin
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In classicrv@yahoogroups.com,
                                      > > Ron Mitchell <rmitchel@> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > I think the best course of action is to check the
                                      > > electrolyte level
                                      > > > every spring and fall and top it off with distilled
                                      > > water. Make sure
                                      > > > the batteries are fully charged, before going into
                                      > > storage for the
                                      > > > winter. I bought an inexpensive "battery maintainer",
                                      > > which puts out
                                      > > > about 1 amp, to keep the batteries in a fully charged
                                      > > state. I'll use
                                      > > > that over the winter to keep them up.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Ron
                                      > > > 76 Coachmen
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > ------------------------------------
                                      > >
                                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >     classicrv-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                    • redwing
                                      ... if a person were to get thier battery to that point with overcharging alot more than exposed plates has happened. the heat generated by that much charging
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Jul 2, 2010
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        > If the water level is so low that the plates are exposed it is the same as if you have spilled liquid from the battery,,,refill it with acid,,,if the liquid level is down only minimaly then go ahead and use water.

                                        if a person were to get thier battery to that point with overcharging alot more than exposed plates has happened. the heat generated by that much charging and neglect will destroy the plates themselves. only true way to see if the acid content is low is to use a tester not adding acid just because the plates are exposed. water evaporates acid does not. when water boils out it can take acid with it. but that is the owners fault for overcharging the battery. fix the charger and maintain the battery and this won't happen. simple!



                                        >
                                        > Above mini factoid is "Battery Aging" it says:
                                        >
                                        > As batteries age, their maintenance requirements change. This means longer charging time and/or higher finish rate (higher amperage at the end of the charge). Usually older batteries need to be watered more often. And, their capacity decreases.
                                        >
                                        > Why do you think there capacity decreases, could it have something to do with the fact that by the time they are 2-3yrs old 60-70 percent of the acid has been replaced with water. They want you to only use water so that the batteries wear out faster so that you have to buy more batteries, so that they can manufacture more of them to sell, that is why they came out with these closed cell batteries so that you can not maintain them, they are only good for a few yrs then ppfft you have to buy a new one, heck some of them only last 1 yr.


                                        nope not at all the mormal aging process in a battery is the plates getting thinner and therefore not holding as much charge as they used to, this can be observed by the voltage of the battery with a testor after a 24hr tricle chrage. the thicker the plates the more charge they will keep, and anothert thing is sulfation which leaves deposits on the plates, there is no way for the normal user to remove that sulfation which also cause the battery to not hold that good of a charge.

                                        any good deep cell battery has a way to fill it with plain water to keep the level up. closed cell batteries are used in vehicles with a low battery use which is trucks and cars, as once the vehicle starts the alternator provides the juice not the battery. whereas with deep cell batteries you generally use them down to half their charge before charging. requirements of the use of the battery tells a person what type of battery to use...never use a closed cell battery for your house batteries unless they are the newer gell types(require different maintenance). but you can use a closed cell battery for the engine which is not used for house current and only starts the engine and nothing else, hence no maintenance is needed normally. if a closed cell battery goes bad early it is generally caused by either heat, overcharging from the alternator or corroded conections or shorts which depletes the charge, taking any battery down past its halfway point does irrepairable harm to any battery wether deep cell or a starting battery.

                                        this info from 50 years of owning a repair shop, and is taught in any mechanical course, not from battery manufacturer's sources.
                                      • redwing
                                        very nice site...good info....shoot i remember when coils were just a little wooden box on the firewall for model a s, didn t work very well and had a short
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Jul 5, 2010
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          very nice site...good info....shoot i remember when coils were just a little wooden box on the firewall for model a's, didn't work very well and had a short life. now they are metal or plastic and last for years.


                                          --- In classicrv@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Noone <rjerryc01@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > The site offered by "ez zinger" is an excellent source of battery info that I have not only used many times for reference, but many things on the site that I had doubts about were confirmed when I contacted other sources. Seems the folks at windsun pretty much know their stuff.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ________________________________
                                          > From: ez zinger <ezzinger@...>
                                          > To: classicrv@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Sent: Wed, June 30, 2010 11:48:15 PM
                                          > Subject: Re: [classicrv] Re: More on batteries
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Kevin, You comments are contradictory to those of battery manufacturers.
                                          > Here is a Battery FAQ that will explain everything you need to know about all types of batteries and their applications.
                                          > http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >
                                        • redwing
                                          nothing but the tv, micro, conveter in my home uses 110, and everything else is 12volt. i have what they call heavy use of batteries home with 8 batteries i
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Jul 5, 2010
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            nothing but the tv, micro, conveter in my home uses 110, and everything else is 12volt. i have what they call "heavy use of batteries home" with 8 batteries i check them all every 2 months for liquid level, adding only distilled water. i look to get 5-6 years out of them easily,like the last set, never take them past 50%, most of my use is boondocking so it is important that i keep maintenance up on everything, sometimes being a full time chore it seems

                                            my next change over for the batteries, i am going to 8dt batteries, already have my mounts made for those big suckers.

                                            many folks don't have the oportunity to fulltime but when they finally do, they find out many things that are myths or just plain old lies the hard way, and usually get stuck somewhere trying to get batteries where none are available or its some out of the way gas station that charges twice as much as normal.

                                            your so right george, sulfuric acid does not evaporate but does interact with the atmosphere to create a flammable mixture(hydrogen gas) by oxidation of the lead plates and the water in batteries, thats why they should be vented to the outside. too many times i have walked into a class 'a' and found the smell so overbearing i try to leave instantly because of those homemade setups.

                                            watching how they use batteries and regular maintenance anyone can get years out of a battery. battry acid in a rv battery is at 29-32% level, thats why a battery acid testor is so important for maintaining battery. never rely on just a charger to see the condition of any battery.

                                            a simple testor like below and a volt meter is all one needs to perform testing on a battery. it not only will tell you the acid level but if the seperate cells are weak. while on sealed car batteries which serve a different need and are built differently, a simple load testor does the job. both tests are done on a charged battery.

                                            http://www.idealtruevalue.com/servlet/the-58700/Detail

                                            excerpt:

                                            Battery Testing can be done in more than one way. The most accurate method is measurement of specific gravity and battery voltage. To measure specific gravity buy a temperature compensating hydrometer, to measure voltage use a digital D.C. Voltmeter. (note:)(((((((A quality load tester may be a good purchase if you need to test sealed batteries.)))))))

                                            For any of these methods, you must first fully charge the battery and then remove the surface charge. If the battery has been sitting at least several hours (I prefer at least 12 hours) you may begin testing. To remove surface charge the battery must be discharged for several minutes. Using a headlight (high beam) will do the trick. After turning off the light you are ready to test the battery.


                                            State of Charge Specific Gravity Voltage
                                            12V 6V
                                            100% 1.265 12.7v 6.3
                                            *75% 1.225 12.4v 6.2
                                            50% 1.190 12.2v 6.1
                                            25% 1.155 12.0v 6.0
                                            Discharged 1.120 11.9v 6.0



                                            --- In c lassicrv@..., "GeorgeG" <ustow@...> wrote:
                                            >an
                                            > even ,
                                            > The acid does not evorapate , just the water so adding just water is all you need to do. Is it like a distilling process. If you start adding battery electrolite you will have too astrong a mix and it will begin to destroy the plates.
                                            > GEORGE!!
                                            >
                                            > --- In classicrv@yahoogroups.com, "kevinkeef" <kevinkeef@> wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > Topping a battery off with water"" eventually you have more water then acid in the battery, I would suggest buying a 1-2gal box of battery acid to top off your batteries, it would prolong the life of the battery, as always be safe while handling the acid, wear long sleaves, rubber gloves, and eye protection.
                                            > >
                                            > > Kevin
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > --- In classicrv@yahoogroups.com, Ron Mitchell <rmitchel@> wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > I think the best course of action is to check the electrolyte level
                                            > > > every spring and fall and top it off with distilled water. Make sure
                                            > > > the batteries are fully charged, before going into storage for the
                                            > > > winter. I bought an inexpensive "battery maintainer", which puts out
                                            > > > about 1 amp, to keep the batteries in a fully charged state. I'll use
                                            > > > that over the winter to keep them up.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Ron
                                            > > > 76 Coachmen
                                            > > >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                          • redwing
                                            yep yep yep. most don t realize that batteries depending on the plates loose a charge no matter what they are set on, naturally sometimes at 2% per day,
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Jul 5, 2010
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                                              yep yep yep. most don't realize that batteries depending on the plates loose a charge no matter what they are set on, naturally sometimes at 2% per day, sometimes alot more.


                                              --- In classicrv@yahoogroups.com, Jabba Truck <jabbathetruck@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > This held true for batteries years ago, but has become a myth since battery
                                              > construction switched to plastic cases.
                                              >
                                              > http://www.thebatteryterminal.com/TechTalk_Batteries_on_Concrete.htm
                                              > http://www.jgdarden.com/batteryfaq/carfaq14.htm#concrete
                                              > http://www.usatoday.com/tech/columnist/aprilholladay/2004-05-13-wonderquest_x.htm
                                              >
                                              > http://www.cartalk.com/content/columns/Archive/1999/November/06.html
                                              >
                                              > Of course, it doesn't hurt anything to use the wood spacers if you want to
                                              > continue doing things the old way.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > ________________________________
                                              > From: kevinkeef <kevinkeef@...>
                                              > To: classicrv@yahoogroups.com
                                              > Sent: Fri, July 2, 2010 1:38:15 AM
                                              > Subject: [classicrv] Re: More on batteries
                                              >
                                              > Another point about battery life that some may not know,,,Never set a battery
                                              > down on concrete for a long length of time,(a few minutes will not hurt), it
                                              > will kill the charge and eventually kill the battery itself, set it on a piece
                                              > of wood, a 1x will do for short term, but use a 2x for longer term.
                                              >
                                              > Kevin
                                              >
                                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              >
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