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Re: 440/3 Boilover After Shutdown

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  • jrhendrsn
    ... I am not sure of the thermostat temp but 190 is my best recollection. I will check the manual because I try to keep everthing to original specs when
    Message 1 of 18 , Oct 3, 2006
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      --- In classicrv@yahoogroups.com, "Eric" <namvet67a1f@...> wrote:
      >
      > What is the temp of your stat ? ......

      I am not sure of the thermostat temp but 190 is my best recollection.
      I will check the manual because I try to keep everthing to original
      specs when replacing parts.
    • jrhendrsn
      Air pockets are a definite possibility. I had the timing chain replaced and was not involved in the reinstallation of the radiator. Would the temp be OK when
      Message 2 of 18 , Oct 3, 2006
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        Air pockets are a definite possibility. I had the timing chain
        replaced and was not involved in the reinstallation of the radiator.

        Would the temp be OK when driving with a blown head gasket? It seems
        like that would cause overheating while its running.

        If I see bubbles when it is running...is this a sign of trapped air,
        blown headgasket, money flying from my wallet or all of the above!! 8^)

        --- In classicrv@yahoogroups.com, "Joel B. Chappell"
        <joel.b.chappell@...> wrote:
        >
        > You definitely have steam pockets in the system... have you drained and
        > replaced the coolant without purging air out of the system? You are
        > definitely getting air/exhaust pressure into the cooling system
        either via a
        > blown head gasket, or other means. Let the truck run with the
        pressure cap
        > off and fill the radiator right up to the neck...then look for bubbles.
        > Joel B. Chappell
        > 21 Billings Street
        > Milford, NH 03055
        >
        >
      • jrhendrsn
        Would drilling the thermostat eliminate the need to find all the places to vent trapped air?
        Message 3 of 18 , Oct 3, 2006
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          Would drilling the thermostat eliminate the need to find all the
          places to vent trapped air?

          --- In classicrv@yahoogroups.com, dxxx cxxxxx <dc_mopar@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi, one thing i forgot to mention, (reminded by the
          > comment on air pockets) thermostats used to come with
          > a bleed hole in them, lately they come solid. i always
          > drill a 1/8 hole in the flat part of the thermostat,
          > this allows the air to bleed out and then you can fill
          > the system completely when cold.
          > Doug
          >
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        • dxxx cxxxxx
          yes, however since the hole is small, you will need to top it off several times after the air bleeds out and the water level equalizes. when the radiator stays
          Message 4 of 18 , Oct 3, 2006
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            yes, however since the hole is small, you will need to
            top it off several times after the air bleeds out and
            the water level equalizes. when the radiator stays
            full without going down, the block and radiator are
            full to the top. Doug


            --- jrhendrsn <jrh@...> wrote:

            > Would drilling the thermostat eliminate the need to
            > find all the
            > places to vent trapped air?
            >
            > --- In classicrv@yahoogroups.com, dxxx cxxxxx
            > <dc_mopar@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > Hi, one thing i forgot to mention, (reminded by
            > the
            > > comment on air pockets) thermostats used to come
            > with
            > > a bleed hole in them, lately they come solid. i
            > always
            > > drill a 1/8 hole in the flat part of the
            > thermostat,
            > > this allows the air to bleed out and then you can
            > fill
            > > the system completely when cold.
            > > Doug
            > >
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            > protection around
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            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >


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          • Henry Blair
            After a number, 5 or less, of cycles all of the air will be purged from the system. The question is Is your coolant foamy when you run the engine with the
            Message 5 of 18 , Oct 4, 2006
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              After a number, 5 or less, of cycles all of the air will be purged from
              the system. The question is "Is your coolant foamy when you run the
              engine with the radiator cap off?" If so, you have a head gasket that
              is not sealing. If not, your block cooling passages may be clogged, the
              worst problem you could have other than a block that is cracked
              internally, not likely. I see no reason for using a 190 degree
              thermostat unless you are in a very cold climate. Is your oil milky
              looking?

              Henry

              jrhendrsn wrote:
              >
              > Would drilling the thermostat eliminate the need to find all the
              > places to vent trapped air?
              >
              > --- In classicrv@yahoogroups.com <mailto:classicrv%40yahoogroups.com>,
              > dxxx cxxxxx <dc_mopar@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > Hi, one thing i forgot to mention, (reminded by the
              > > comment on air pockets) thermostats used to come with
              > > a bleed hole in them, lately they come solid. i always
              > > drill a 1/8 hole in the flat part of the thermostat,
              > > this allows the air to bleed out and then you can fill
              > > the system completely when cold.
              > > Doug
              > >
              > > __________________________________________________
              > > Do You Yahoo!?
              > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
              > > http://mail.yahoo.com <http://mail.yahoo.com>
              > >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Henry Blair Jr
              I have driven one of these engines over 5,000 miles with a non-sealing head gasket, and the engine remained cool. The damage was done when the head warped
              Message 6 of 18 , Oct 4, 2006
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                I have driven one of these engines over 5,000 miles with a non-sealing
                head gasket, and the engine remained cool. The damage was done when the
                head warped initially and the seal was lost. When running, the flow of
                the coolant, even though its efficiency is reduced by the air in the
                coolant, is enough to cool the engine. When the coolant is not flowing,
                the heat is not being transferred through the radiator. Air pockets go
                away on their own, usually after a low number of cycles. They are
                reduced by the hole in the thermostat, but can still be present. I
                usually count on air and watch the engine for the first few cycles.

                Bubbles, or foam, are a sign of a head gasket that is not sealing. Here
                is a tip. Use a Felpro fiber head gasket the next time. These gaskets
                are a newer technology and will expand and contract between the two iron
                surfaces better than the metal head gaskets. Always use a fiber head
                gasket on an iron engine with an aluminum head due to the different
                coefficients of expansion, and thus, a higher need for temperature
                flexibility.

                Henry

                jrhendrsn wrote:
                >
                > Air pockets are a definite possibility. I had the timing chain
                > replaced and was not involved in the reinstallation of the radiator.
                >
                > Would the temp be OK when driving with a blown head gasket? It seems
                > like that would cause overheating while its running.
                >
                > If I see bubbles when it is running...is this a sign of trapped air,
                > blown headgasket, money flying from my wallet or all of the above!! 8^)
                >
                > --- In classicrv@yahoogroups.com <mailto:classicrv%40yahoogroups.com>,
                > "Joel B. Chappell"
                > <joel.b.chappell@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > You definitely have steam pockets in the system... have you drained and
                > > replaced the coolant without purging air out of the system? You are
                > > definitely getting air/exhaust pressure into the cooling system
                > either via a
                > > blown head gasket, or other means. Let the truck run with the
                > pressure cap
                > > off and fill the radiator right up to the neck...then look for bubbles.
                > > Joel B. Chappell
                > > 21 Billings Street
                > > Milford, NH 03055
                > >
                > >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Henry Blair Jr
                If you have never taken a 440-3 head off, you may not understand how a blown head gasket reacts. These are very high quality metal gaskets that, as a rule,
                Message 7 of 18 , Oct 4, 2006
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                  If you have never taken a 440-3 head off, you may not understand how a
                  'blown' head gasket reacts. These are very high quality metal gaskets
                  that, as a rule, do not really blow. What happens when a 440-3 engine
                  overheats is that the head warps and the gasket no longer makes a
                  heat-to-block seal. The adjacent cylinders, with no seal between them,
                  then pressurize the cooling system. Rarely does much oil get into the
                  system, but if you start a cold engine with the radiator cap off, you
                  will quickly see that the coolant begins to foam.

                  I just had the same issue with a 440 in a 77 Chrysler custom that I
                  built. When the heads were removed, the places where the head gasket
                  sealed were shiny, and dark where the coolant had leaked. Having the
                  heads surfaced is not that expensive, but you may want to have them
                  rebuilt while you have them off. I think I read where you had a 192
                  degree thermostat. From my experience, this is too high. Try a 180 degree.

                  Henry

                  Eric wrote:
                  >
                  > What is the temp of your stat ? ......
                  >
                  > "jrhendrsn" <jrh@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > My '73 440/3 has developed an aggravating problem. It can idle, run
                  > > down the highway, up hills and keep a fairly constant 210 degrees. No
                  > > overheating problems at all when running. When I turn it off it
                  > > overheats (shown on the gauge) and boils over. It lets out more
                  > > coolant than usual if I have opened the heater inlet and less if it
                  > > idles for about 5 minutes but there is always some amount of
                  > boilover.
                  > > I have 16-18# caps on the filler and the radiator but it only leaks
                  > > from the actual radiator cap. What can cause this?
                  > >
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Jack Rabon
                  When the coolant is circulating, little air bubbles will be moved along until they congregate at the high point in the system. That would be at the top of the
                  Message 8 of 18 , Oct 4, 2006
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                    When the coolant is circulating, little air bubbles will be moved along
                    until they congregate at the high point in the system. That would be at
                    the top of the radiator, right where the neck & cap are.

                    As Henry said, after several thermal cycles you will purge all of the air.
                    Thermal cycle is heating up to normal, then cooling after use.

                    Here is where the coolant recovery tank is quite helpful. In the old days,
                    you just left the fluid level down a bit in the radiator top. Put in too
                    much, and it would be lost the next time the engine was warm, as the
                    coolant expands when it gets hot. You checked the level when the system
                    was cool. So you always had air in the system, at least at the top of the
                    radiator.

                    Modern systems use an overflow tank to catch the expanded coolant, and feed
                    it back into the radiator as the system cools. Air bubbles are expelled
                    through the overflow tank, which is vented to the atmosphere. The radiator
                    always has a full charge of coolant.

                    You can add an aftermarket tank to your older vehicle. Low cost kits are
                    available at Autozone & other chain auto parts stores.

                    And BTW, the radiator moves a lot more heat by conduction than by
                    radiation. So why is it called a radiator?

                    Jack

                    -----Original Message-----

                    Re: 440/3 Boilover After Shutdown
                    Posted by: "jrhendrsn" jrh@... jrhendrsn
                    Date: Tue Oct 3, 2006 6:22 pm (PDT)

                    Would drilling the thermostat eliminate the need to find all the
                    places to vent trapped air?
                  • dxxx cxxxxx
                    Yes the air will purge itself in a few cycles, but until it does it has to overheat and open the thermostat with steam. drilling the hole is just something i
                    Message 9 of 18 , Oct 4, 2006
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                      Yes the air will purge itself in a few cycles, but
                      until it does it has to overheat and open the
                      thermostat with steam. drilling the hole is just
                      something i do to prevent this. i was just passing
                      this along, as it saves time over topping off the
                      radiator several times as well as preventing the
                      initial overheating. this is obviously not the problem
                      with this engine, as it happens every time.
                      all engines get heat soaked when the flow stops after
                      it is shut off, some coolant transfer to the overflow
                      container is normal. if the heat or boilover is
                      excessive, there is probably a pressure leak in the
                      cooling system that can be as minor as a bad cap, or
                      as major as a cracked block, with a blown headgasket,
                      crack in the middle of the possibilities. if the block
                      is cracked, there would be a good possibility that the
                      head gaskets are blown bad also, and the event that
                      caused it would probably be memorable. in the absence
                      of a water leak except the boilover, the head gaskets
                      seem the likely culprit.
                      depending on the severity of the leak, and the usage
                      of the rig, it may be worth a try to do a flush and
                      put in some block sealer. sodium silicate, also known
                      as "liquid glass" is the main ingredient of several of
                      the hardcore bock sealers, and is available in pure
                      form from most pharmacies. (quart jar about 13 bucks)
                      i know of several cases where it sealed severly blown
                      head gaskets, and one was driven from California to
                      Arizona (where it was parked to live in it) with no
                      problems. the one caution: it glues everything
                      together really well, so if you do tear it down in the
                      future to repair or rebuild, it won't come apart easy.
                      Doug

                      --- Jack Rabon <rabonj@...> wrote:

                      > When the coolant is circulating, little air bubbles
                      > will be moved along
                      > until they congregate at the high point in the
                      > system. That would be at
                      > the top of the radiator, right where the neck & cap
                      > are.
                      >
                      > As Henry said, after several thermal cycles you will
                      > purge all of the air.
                      > Thermal cycle is heating up to normal, then cooling
                      > after use.
                      >

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                    • jrhendrsn
                      The oil looks fine. This weekend I will check for foamy coolant and if that is negative on to the many other suggestions you folks have given me. With a
                      Message 10 of 18 , Oct 4, 2006
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                        The oil looks fine. This weekend I will check for foamy coolant and if
                        that is negative on to the many other suggestions you folks have given
                        me. With a little luck, Monday I will be writing back about my bad
                        radiator cap (A little wishful thinking never hurts) 8^)

                        This is a great group and I thank all of you for your responses.

                        Thanks,
                        Jim

                        --- In classicrv@yahoogroups.com, Henry Blair <henryblairjr@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > After a number, 5 or less, of cycles all of the air will be purged from
                        > the system. The question is "Is your coolant foamy when you run the
                        > engine with the radiator cap off?" If so, you have a head gasket that
                        > is not sealing. If not, your block cooling passages may be clogged,
                        the
                        > worst problem you could have other than a block that is cracked
                        > internally, not likely. I see no reason for using a 190 degree
                        > thermostat unless you are in a very cold climate. Is your oil milky
                        > looking?
                        >
                        > Henry
                        >
                      • Henry Blair
                        There is also something new from Barr s for head gasket repair. Sodium silicate will seal, but it, as all other head gasket repairs in a bottle, can stop up
                        Message 11 of 18 , Oct 4, 2006
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                          There is also something new from Barr's for head gasket repair. Sodium
                          silicate will seal, but it, as all other head gasket repairs in a
                          bottle, can stop up radiators, and if the passages in the engine are not
                          clean, engine passages. I have used this stuff for years when I could
                          not get proper parts for farm equipment engines. I would first use an
                          aggressive flush to clean the radiator and block so that the small
                          openings would be at their cleanest. I use it twice as long as
                          suggested on the container. I then run a water pump lubricant through
                          the engine for a period of time. This helps the head gasket sealant
                          stick to fewer placers. Then comes the "water glass." The melting
                          temperature of this stuff is over 750 degrees, so it usually flows
                          freely, and with proper preparation has little effect on clogging clean
                          passages in the engine and the radiator. The water pump lubricant is
                          just a conservative step to keep the stuff from sealing where it should
                          not. When the engine overheats at the specific places, head gaskets, as
                          Doug says, sets for perpetuity or close to it. I personally have not
                          seen it heal a cracked block, and do not think it would, unless the
                          crack was in a high temp area. Head gaskets are usually no problem.
                          Work out before you later disassemble the heads from the engine. The
                          best way I found to remove the head is to hit it with a 3 lb hammer to
                          break the glass after all of the bolts are loosened. If sodium silicate
                          is used, I would suggest that the block be cleaned and surfaced by a
                          machine shop so that the glass can be fully removed.

                          If it is a head gasket, or two, it may be better to byte the bullet and
                          remove the heads, have them rebuilt, and replaced. If the engine is
                          junk anyway, or funds are not available, use water glass and go for it.
                          In a low compression industrial hemi running an irrigation pump, it
                          lasted 8 years and was still running perfectly when we sold the farm.

                          Henry

                          dxxx cxxxxx wrote:
                          >
                          > Yes the air will purge itself in a few cycles, but
                          > until it does it has to overheat and open the
                          > thermostat with steam. drilling the hole is just
                          > something i do to prevent this. i was just passing
                          > this along, as it saves time over topping off the
                          > radiator several times as well as preventing the
                          > initial overheating. this is obviously not the problem
                          > with this engine, as it happens every time.
                          > all engines get heat soaked when the flow stops after
                          > it is shut off, some coolant transfer to the overflow
                          > container is normal. if the heat or boilover is
                          > excessive, there is probably a pressure leak in the
                          > cooling system that can be as minor as a bad cap, or
                          > as major as a cracked block, with a blown headgasket,
                          > crack in the middle of the possibilities. if the block
                          > is cracked, there would be a good possibility that the
                          > head gaskets are blown bad also, and the event that
                          > caused it would probably be memorable. in the absence
                          > of a water leak except the boilover, the head gaskets
                          > seem the likely culprit.
                          > depending on the severity of the leak, and the usage
                          > of the rig, it may be worth a try to do a flush and
                          > put in some block sealer. sodium silicate, also known
                          > as "liquid glass" is the main ingredient of several of
                          > the hardcore bock sealers, and is available in pure
                          > form from most pharmacies. (quart jar about 13 bucks)
                          > i know of several cases where it sealed severly blown
                          > head gaskets, and one was driven from California to
                          > Arizona (where it was parked to live in it) with no
                          > problems. the one caution: it glues everything
                          > together really well, so if you do tear it down in the
                          > future to repair or rebuild, it won't come apart easy.
                          > Doug
                          >
                          > --- Jack Rabon <rabonj@... <mailto:rabonj%40bellsouth.net>>
                          > wrote:
                          >
                          > > When the coolant is circulating, little air bubbles
                          > > will be moved along
                          > > until they congregate at the high point in the
                          > > system. That would be at
                          > > the top of the radiator, right where the neck & cap
                          > > are.
                          > >
                          > > As Henry said, after several thermal cycles you will
                          > > purge all of the air.
                          > > Thermal cycle is heating up to normal, then cooling
                          > > after use.
                          > >
                          >
                          > __________________________________________________
                          > Do You Yahoo!?
                          > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                          > http://mail.yahoo.com <http://mail.yahoo.com>
                          >
                          >


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