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RE: [civilwarwest] Orders

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  • Bob Huddleston
    One question you only partially asked was How many copied were made? Then and now the number depended upon the material. A report would have one for the
    Message 1 of 11 , Feb 1, 2002
      One question you only partially asked was How many copied were made?
      Then and now the number depended upon the material. A report would have
      one for the recipient and one for the sender to retain. An order would
      depend upon the necessary distribution. General Orders often were set in
      type and printed; Special Orders concerning leaves and detachments might
      also be set in type and printed in the an abbreviated format, with the
      subject receiving a couple of copies of the portion which concerned him.

      With only two types of orders (see the insertion below from the 1861 US
      Army Regulations about the differences -- CS used identical wording),
      Field Orders and attack orders were part of the Special Order series.

      Perhaps the most famous single order of the CW was Special Order 191,
      Series of 1862, Headquarters, Army of Northern Virginia, the famous
      "Lost Order."

      Because it had to go out to various commands, the order was first
      drafter and then approved by Gen. Lee. Then clerks were gathered and
      they copied the order the necessary number of times. A copy was placed
      in an envelope, addressed and delivered. The messenger was responsible
      for delivering it, and, as proof of delivery, having the recipient sign
      the envelope, which the messenger had to take back.

      Unlike modern practice, where copies of Top Secret documents are
      numbered, CW orders weren't. And I have never seen a log of delivered
      orders: it was the responsibility of the adjutant general (Rawlins, in
      USG's case) to make certain that all the messengers returned with the
      signed envelopes -- which were tossed in the fire.

      The Antietam Group got into an argument (shocking, I know!) a few years
      ago about the number of copies of SO 191 that were sent. No one knows
      for certain, but, at a minimum, there would have been:

      1. Retained by HQ, ANV
      2 & 3 to Longstreet and Jackson, the Wong Commanders
      4 to Stuart the cavalry division commander.

      Here is where things got messed up: a fifth went to Harvey Hill, since
      part of SO 191 detached him from Jackson's command and made Hill's
      division report directly to HQ, ANV.

      But, since the order did not have, as a modern one would, a distribution
      list, Jackson copied the relevant portions and sent this to Hill. It is
      now part of the Hill papers at the UNC.

      Hill, having received a copy of SO 191, did not know that Lee had sent
      one to him. And the messenger never reported back to HQ, ANV with a
      signed envelope. Instead the envelope and the order ended up in the
      McClellan papers at the LoC.

      One difference between Grant and Lee was that the latter verbally
      drafted orders then Col. Marshall, Lee's AAG, would put them into proper
      written form. USG, OTOH, wrote the original copy, which the HQ clerks
      would then in turn copy for distribution.

      Take care,

      Bob

      Judy and Bob Huddleston
      10643 Sperry Street
      Northglenn, CO 80234-3612
      303.451.6376 Adco@...

      432. The orders of commanders of armies, divisions, brigades,
      regiments, are denominated orders of such army, division, &c., and are
      either general or special. Orders are numbered, general and special, in
      separate series, each beginning with the year.

      433. General orders announce the time and place of issues and
      payments; hours for roll-calls and duties; the number and kind of
      orderlies, and the time when they shall be relieved; police regulations,
      and the prohibitions required by circumstances and localities; returns
      to be made, and their forms; laws and regulations for the army;
      promotions and appointments; eulogies or censures to corps or
      individuals, and generally, whatever it may be important to make known
      to the whole command.
      434. Special orders are such as do not concern the troops generally,
      and need not be published to the whole command; such as relate to the
      march of some particular corps, the establishment of some post, the
      detaching of individuals, the granting requests, &c., &c.
    • hvonbork@aol.com
      Bob- Thanks and my compliments for your most interesting, detailed post. Jack
      Message 2 of 11 , Feb 1, 2002
        Bob-
              Thanks and my compliments for your most interesting, detailed post.
              Jack
      • josepharose
        Bob, Thanks hugely. Knowing of your previous posts, I assume that you provided this abundance of information off the top of your head. One reason that I d be
        Message 3 of 11 , Feb 1, 2002
          Bob,

          Thanks hugely. Knowing of your previous posts, I assume that you
          provided this abundance of information off the top of your head.

          One reason that I'd be interested in the generals' original order
          books is that they could provide the best chronologically-ordered
          orders, in those cases where a time isn't noted. In the ORs, there
          seems to be a number of instances where various orders with the same
          date were printed in an incorrect order.

          Other orders in the ORs may have incorrect timestamps; for
          Chattanooga, one message to Reynolds has Granger, Sheridan, and Hazen
          at Bragg's HQs on the ridge before the attack even started (maybe
          they had been invited for tea).

          Are these order books located at the LOC or the Archives and are they
          available for public perusal?

          Thanks, again,
          Joseph





          --- In civilwarwest@y..., "Bob Huddleston" <adco12@m...> wrote:
          > One question you only partially asked was How many copied were made?
          > Then and now the number depended upon the material. A report would
          have
          > one for the recipient and one for the sender to retain. An order
          would
          > depend upon the necessary distribution. General Orders often were
          set in
          > type and printed; Special Orders concerning leaves and detachments
          might
          > also be set in type and printed in the an abbreviated format, with
          the
          > subject receiving a couple of copies of the portion which concerned
          him.
          >
          > With only two types of orders (see the insertion below from the
          1861 US
          > Army Regulations about the differences -- CS used identical
          wording),
          > Field Orders and attack orders were part of the Special Order
          series.
          >
          > Perhaps the most famous single order of the CW was Special Order
          191,
          > Series of 1862, Headquarters, Army of Northern Virginia, the famous
          > "Lost Order."
          >
          > Because it had to go out to various commands, the order was first
          > drafter and then approved by Gen. Lee. Then clerks were gathered and
          > they copied the order the necessary number of times. A copy was
          placed
          > in an envelope, addressed and delivered. The messenger was
          responsible
          > for delivering it, and, as proof of delivery, having the recipient
          sign
          > the envelope, which the messenger had to take back.
          >
          > Unlike modern practice, where copies of Top Secret documents are
          > numbered, CW orders weren't. And I have never seen a log of
          delivered
          > orders: it was the responsibility of the adjutant general (Rawlins,
          in
          > USG's case) to make certain that all the messengers returned with
          the
          > signed envelopes -- which were tossed in the fire.
          >
          > The Antietam Group got into an argument (shocking, I know!) a few
          years
          > ago about the number of copies of SO 191 that were sent. No one
          knows
          > for certain, but, at a minimum, there would have been:
          >
          > 1. Retained by HQ, ANV
          > 2 & 3 to Longstreet and Jackson, the Wong Commanders
          > 4 to Stuart the cavalry division commander.
          >
          > Here is where things got messed up: a fifth went to Harvey Hill,
          since
          > part of SO 191 detached him from Jackson's command and made Hill's
          > division report directly to HQ, ANV.
          >
          > But, since the order did not have, as a modern one would, a
          distribution
          > list, Jackson copied the relevant portions and sent this to Hill.
          It is
          > now part of the Hill papers at the UNC.
          >
          > Hill, having received a copy of SO 191, did not know that Lee had
          sent
          > one to him. And the messenger never reported back to HQ, ANV with a
          > signed envelope. Instead the envelope and the order ended up in the
          > McClellan papers at the LoC.
          >
          > One difference between Grant and Lee was that the latter verbally
          > drafted orders then Col. Marshall, Lee's AAG, would put them into
          proper
          > written form. USG, OTOH, wrote the original copy, which the HQ
          clerks
          > would then in turn copy for distribution.
          >
          > Take care,
          >
          > Bob
          >
          > Judy and Bob Huddleston
          > 10643 Sperry Street
          > Northglenn, CO 80234-3612
          > 303.451.6376 Adco@F...
          >
          > 432. The orders of commanders of armies, divisions, brigades,
          > regiments, are denominated orders of such army, division, &c., and
          are
          > either general or special. Orders are numbered, general and
          special, in
          > separate series, each beginning with the year.
          >
          > 433. General orders announce the time and place of issues and
          > payments; hours for roll-calls and duties; the number and kind of
          > orderlies, and the time when they shall be relieved; police
          regulations,
          > and the prohibitions required by circumstances and localities;
          returns
          > to be made, and their forms; laws and regulations for the army;
          > promotions and appointments; eulogies or censures to corps or
          > individuals, and generally, whatever it may be important to make
          known
          > to the whole command.
          > 434. Special orders are such as do not concern the troops
          generally,
          > and need not be published to the whole command; such as relate to
          the
          > march of some particular corps, the establishment of some post, the
          > detaching of individuals, the granting requests, &c., &c.
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