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RE: [civilwarwest] Re: Orders

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  • Bob Huddleston
    The Grant Papers in the LoC include his own personal papers, material gathered by the family, and stuff like the original of Personal Memoirs as well as
    Message 1 of 11 , Feb 1, 2002
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      The Grant Papers in the LoC include his own personal papers, material
      gathered by the family, and stuff like the original of Personal Memoirs
      as well as Julia's autobiography, and are available on microfilm, 32
      reels of it, as well as a printed guide, some 80 pages. The index, after
      a discussion of the province, indexes all the authors or recipients of
      letters to or from USG. For instance, George Thomas occupies almost two
      pages while Uncle Billy fills three.

      All of the various presidential papers held by the LoC have been
      microfilmed and one copy distributed to at least one research library in
      each state. In Colorado they are in the University of Colorado library.
      In addition, you can probably interlibrary loan them through your local
      library. An e-mail to loc.gov (check the site for exact e-mail address)
      will probably tell you where in your state the documents are. The PUSG
      has the source for each of their material.

      Some, of course, did not make it to either the LoC or to the family. The
      National Archives would have much of the original of letters send to and
      from USG by the Secretary of War, and Headquarters, USA -- both have
      been microfilmed.

      Grant's letter book has his copy. The actual sent document may be in the
      collection of some other general or at NARA.

      Additionally, headquarters would copy the received letter/order/telegram
      into a "Letters Received" volume. Indexing sucks on these: it usually
      was an alpha list in the front, with the first name under "A" being the
      first person whose letter was received or to whom USG wrote, which is
      contained in that volume. Additional letters from that person would be
      referenced by page number -- but if General Azzol :>) wrote to USG, all
      of his letters would be listed first, before General Aardvaack. And
      their location in the volume is really chronological.

      Confused? It gets better: the letters, reports, orders received, were
      copied by a clerk. With resulting inaccuracies. For instance, After
      Action regimental reports would be found as copies in the Regimental,
      Brigade, Division, Corps, Army and Adjutant General's volumes. And each
      would be copied a little differently!

      And when the material was compiled for the OR, it would be copied again.
      See Aimone's volume on the history of the Ors for details and compare
      the versions published in the PUSG with the one's in the Ors. Actually,
      most of the OR changes were to standardize grammar, correct spelling and
      standardize salutations and signatures. Grant, for instance, did not
      sign his letters "ULYSSES S. GRANT" as the ORs would have you believe.

      Take care,

      Bob

      Judy and Bob Huddleston
      10643 Sperry Street
      Northglenn, CO 80234-3612
      303.451.6376 Adco@...


      -----Original Message-----
      From: josepharose [mailto:josepharose@...]
      Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 10:35 PM
      To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Orders

      Thank you, Ms. Boone (and Mr. Epperson).

      With the orders in triplicate, I ssume one copy went to the addressee
      and one was kept in Grant's manifold. Where did the third copy go--
      the records of the department or division? Are the manifold copies
      loose or are they bound/attached in their original state?

      You mentioned that Grant's original manifolds are in the LOC; are
      they accessible to the general public? Would I be correct in
      assuming that there are other copies of his orders located in the
      national archives?

      Can you tell me more about these manifolds? Are they generally
      legible? Are they usually written in pencil? There were probably
      many of them; are any missing for the war years?

      To bring up something Mr. Epperson wrote, Porter's book, IIRC, had
      Grant at a table pushing papers across it after he finished with each
      one. Should we assume that these were other of his wartime writings,
      such as correspondence, and not orders?

      Were the use of these manifolds common to most or all US generals?

      Thanks, again.
      Joseph





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    • Bob Huddleston
      If you have a copy of the Army Regulations, you will find chapter 34 concerns army orders and correspondence with details on how many order books an outfit
      Message 2 of 11 , Feb 1, 2002
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        If you have a copy of the Army Regulations, you will find chapter 34
        concerns army orders and correspondence with details on how many order
        books an outfit should have, etc. The originals of these are in the
        National Archives and available for research. In addition there are page
        after page of the AR with examples of the forms that should be used for
        every thing from Guard Mount to inspection of the outfit's weapons.

        I have somewhere an article from a manuscript collector magazine on the
        technicalities of letter press books. They used a gel and made a sort of
        reverse carbon of the letter as it was being written. The result is
        often unreadable 140 years later, especially if it was written quickly
        and sloppily.

        They used both pens and pencils, and the latter are now smudged and
        really unreadable!

        In addition the Rebels had real paper problems as the war went on.
        Several years ago I had the opportunity to see the actual Appomattox
        correspondence: USG's is in ink on decent paper. Lee's is in pencil on
        horrible paper and unreadable today. Thank heavens copies were made of
        it years ago!

        Take care,

        Bob

        Judy and Bob Huddleston
        10643 Sperry Street
        Northglenn, CO 80234-3612
        303.451.6376 Adco@...



        Does anyone know of a site which explains how Civil War orders were
        written and distributed? With the outcome of many battles hinging on
        the proper transmission of orders, I have several questions
        concerning them.

        I've heard reference to blanks which could be used by officers. Were
        all blanks generally the same, or were there any specialized versions-
        -for requisitions, as an example?

        Carbon paper had been invented well before the war, but the only
        relevant mention which I've seen so far was of the War Department
        buying a large quantity of it in 1870.

        Did officers usually use an order book which kept a copy of all
        outgoing orders? If so, was carbon paper used in them?

        Were most orders written with pencil or pen during the war?

        Thank you for your help,
        Joseph
      • Bob Huddleston
        One question you only partially asked was How many copied were made? Then and now the number depended upon the material. A report would have one for the
        Message 3 of 11 , Feb 1, 2002
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          One question you only partially asked was How many copied were made?
          Then and now the number depended upon the material. A report would have
          one for the recipient and one for the sender to retain. An order would
          depend upon the necessary distribution. General Orders often were set in
          type and printed; Special Orders concerning leaves and detachments might
          also be set in type and printed in the an abbreviated format, with the
          subject receiving a couple of copies of the portion which concerned him.

          With only two types of orders (see the insertion below from the 1861 US
          Army Regulations about the differences -- CS used identical wording),
          Field Orders and attack orders were part of the Special Order series.

          Perhaps the most famous single order of the CW was Special Order 191,
          Series of 1862, Headquarters, Army of Northern Virginia, the famous
          "Lost Order."

          Because it had to go out to various commands, the order was first
          drafter and then approved by Gen. Lee. Then clerks were gathered and
          they copied the order the necessary number of times. A copy was placed
          in an envelope, addressed and delivered. The messenger was responsible
          for delivering it, and, as proof of delivery, having the recipient sign
          the envelope, which the messenger had to take back.

          Unlike modern practice, where copies of Top Secret documents are
          numbered, CW orders weren't. And I have never seen a log of delivered
          orders: it was the responsibility of the adjutant general (Rawlins, in
          USG's case) to make certain that all the messengers returned with the
          signed envelopes -- which were tossed in the fire.

          The Antietam Group got into an argument (shocking, I know!) a few years
          ago about the number of copies of SO 191 that were sent. No one knows
          for certain, but, at a minimum, there would have been:

          1. Retained by HQ, ANV
          2 & 3 to Longstreet and Jackson, the Wong Commanders
          4 to Stuart the cavalry division commander.

          Here is where things got messed up: a fifth went to Harvey Hill, since
          part of SO 191 detached him from Jackson's command and made Hill's
          division report directly to HQ, ANV.

          But, since the order did not have, as a modern one would, a distribution
          list, Jackson copied the relevant portions and sent this to Hill. It is
          now part of the Hill papers at the UNC.

          Hill, having received a copy of SO 191, did not know that Lee had sent
          one to him. And the messenger never reported back to HQ, ANV with a
          signed envelope. Instead the envelope and the order ended up in the
          McClellan papers at the LoC.

          One difference between Grant and Lee was that the latter verbally
          drafted orders then Col. Marshall, Lee's AAG, would put them into proper
          written form. USG, OTOH, wrote the original copy, which the HQ clerks
          would then in turn copy for distribution.

          Take care,

          Bob

          Judy and Bob Huddleston
          10643 Sperry Street
          Northglenn, CO 80234-3612
          303.451.6376 Adco@...

          432. The orders of commanders of armies, divisions, brigades,
          regiments, are denominated orders of such army, division, &c., and are
          either general or special. Orders are numbered, general and special, in
          separate series, each beginning with the year.

          433. General orders announce the time and place of issues and
          payments; hours for roll-calls and duties; the number and kind of
          orderlies, and the time when they shall be relieved; police regulations,
          and the prohibitions required by circumstances and localities; returns
          to be made, and their forms; laws and regulations for the army;
          promotions and appointments; eulogies or censures to corps or
          individuals, and generally, whatever it may be important to make known
          to the whole command.
          434. Special orders are such as do not concern the troops generally,
          and need not be published to the whole command; such as relate to the
          march of some particular corps, the establishment of some post, the
          detaching of individuals, the granting requests, &c., &c.
        • hvonbork@aol.com
          Bob- Thanks and my compliments for your most interesting, detailed post. Jack
          Message 4 of 11 , Feb 1, 2002
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            Bob-
                  Thanks and my compliments for your most interesting, detailed post.
                  Jack
          • josepharose
            Bob, Thanks hugely. Knowing of your previous posts, I assume that you provided this abundance of information off the top of your head. One reason that I d be
            Message 5 of 11 , Feb 1, 2002
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              Bob,

              Thanks hugely. Knowing of your previous posts, I assume that you
              provided this abundance of information off the top of your head.

              One reason that I'd be interested in the generals' original order
              books is that they could provide the best chronologically-ordered
              orders, in those cases where a time isn't noted. In the ORs, there
              seems to be a number of instances where various orders with the same
              date were printed in an incorrect order.

              Other orders in the ORs may have incorrect timestamps; for
              Chattanooga, one message to Reynolds has Granger, Sheridan, and Hazen
              at Bragg's HQs on the ridge before the attack even started (maybe
              they had been invited for tea).

              Are these order books located at the LOC or the Archives and are they
              available for public perusal?

              Thanks, again,
              Joseph





              --- In civilwarwest@y..., "Bob Huddleston" <adco12@m...> wrote:
              > One question you only partially asked was How many copied were made?
              > Then and now the number depended upon the material. A report would
              have
              > one for the recipient and one for the sender to retain. An order
              would
              > depend upon the necessary distribution. General Orders often were
              set in
              > type and printed; Special Orders concerning leaves and detachments
              might
              > also be set in type and printed in the an abbreviated format, with
              the
              > subject receiving a couple of copies of the portion which concerned
              him.
              >
              > With only two types of orders (see the insertion below from the
              1861 US
              > Army Regulations about the differences -- CS used identical
              wording),
              > Field Orders and attack orders were part of the Special Order
              series.
              >
              > Perhaps the most famous single order of the CW was Special Order
              191,
              > Series of 1862, Headquarters, Army of Northern Virginia, the famous
              > "Lost Order."
              >
              > Because it had to go out to various commands, the order was first
              > drafter and then approved by Gen. Lee. Then clerks were gathered and
              > they copied the order the necessary number of times. A copy was
              placed
              > in an envelope, addressed and delivered. The messenger was
              responsible
              > for delivering it, and, as proof of delivery, having the recipient
              sign
              > the envelope, which the messenger had to take back.
              >
              > Unlike modern practice, where copies of Top Secret documents are
              > numbered, CW orders weren't. And I have never seen a log of
              delivered
              > orders: it was the responsibility of the adjutant general (Rawlins,
              in
              > USG's case) to make certain that all the messengers returned with
              the
              > signed envelopes -- which were tossed in the fire.
              >
              > The Antietam Group got into an argument (shocking, I know!) a few
              years
              > ago about the number of copies of SO 191 that were sent. No one
              knows
              > for certain, but, at a minimum, there would have been:
              >
              > 1. Retained by HQ, ANV
              > 2 & 3 to Longstreet and Jackson, the Wong Commanders
              > 4 to Stuart the cavalry division commander.
              >
              > Here is where things got messed up: a fifth went to Harvey Hill,
              since
              > part of SO 191 detached him from Jackson's command and made Hill's
              > division report directly to HQ, ANV.
              >
              > But, since the order did not have, as a modern one would, a
              distribution
              > list, Jackson copied the relevant portions and sent this to Hill.
              It is
              > now part of the Hill papers at the UNC.
              >
              > Hill, having received a copy of SO 191, did not know that Lee had
              sent
              > one to him. And the messenger never reported back to HQ, ANV with a
              > signed envelope. Instead the envelope and the order ended up in the
              > McClellan papers at the LoC.
              >
              > One difference between Grant and Lee was that the latter verbally
              > drafted orders then Col. Marshall, Lee's AAG, would put them into
              proper
              > written form. USG, OTOH, wrote the original copy, which the HQ
              clerks
              > would then in turn copy for distribution.
              >
              > Take care,
              >
              > Bob
              >
              > Judy and Bob Huddleston
              > 10643 Sperry Street
              > Northglenn, CO 80234-3612
              > 303.451.6376 Adco@F...
              >
              > 432. The orders of commanders of armies, divisions, brigades,
              > regiments, are denominated orders of such army, division, &c., and
              are
              > either general or special. Orders are numbered, general and
              special, in
              > separate series, each beginning with the year.
              >
              > 433. General orders announce the time and place of issues and
              > payments; hours for roll-calls and duties; the number and kind of
              > orderlies, and the time when they shall be relieved; police
              regulations,
              > and the prohibitions required by circumstances and localities;
              returns
              > to be made, and their forms; laws and regulations for the army;
              > promotions and appointments; eulogies or censures to corps or
              > individuals, and generally, whatever it may be important to make
              known
              > to the whole command.
              > 434. Special orders are such as do not concern the troops
              generally,
              > and need not be published to the whole command; such as relate to
              the
              > march of some particular corps, the establishment of some post, the
              > detaching of individuals, the granting requests, &c., &c.
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