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Re: Orders

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  • josepharose
    Thank you, Ms. Boone (and Mr. Epperson). With the orders in triplicate, I ssume one copy went to the addressee and one was kept in Grant s manifold. Where did
    Message 1 of 11 , Jan 31, 2002
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      Thank you, Ms. Boone (and Mr. Epperson).

      With the orders in triplicate, I ssume one copy went to the addressee
      and one was kept in Grant's manifold. Where did the third copy go--
      the records of the department or division? Are the manifold copies
      loose or are they bound/attached in their original state?

      You mentioned that Grant's original manifolds are in the LOC; are
      they accessible to the general public? Would I be correct in
      assuming that there are other copies of his orders located in the
      national archives?

      Can you tell me more about these manifolds? Are they generally
      legible? Are they usually written in pencil? There were probably
      many of them; are any missing for the war years?

      To bring up something Mr. Epperson wrote, Porter's book, IIRC, had
      Grant at a table pushing papers across it after he finished with each
      one. Should we assume that these were other of his wartime writings,
      such as correspondence, and not orders?

      Were the use of these manifolds common to most or all US generals?

      Thanks, again.
      Joseph
    • Bob Huddleston
      The Grant Papers in the LoC include his own personal papers, material gathered by the family, and stuff like the original of Personal Memoirs as well as
      Message 2 of 11 , Feb 1, 2002
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        The Grant Papers in the LoC include his own personal papers, material
        gathered by the family, and stuff like the original of Personal Memoirs
        as well as Julia's autobiography, and are available on microfilm, 32
        reels of it, as well as a printed guide, some 80 pages. The index, after
        a discussion of the province, indexes all the authors or recipients of
        letters to or from USG. For instance, George Thomas occupies almost two
        pages while Uncle Billy fills three.

        All of the various presidential papers held by the LoC have been
        microfilmed and one copy distributed to at least one research library in
        each state. In Colorado they are in the University of Colorado library.
        In addition, you can probably interlibrary loan them through your local
        library. An e-mail to loc.gov (check the site for exact e-mail address)
        will probably tell you where in your state the documents are. The PUSG
        has the source for each of their material.

        Some, of course, did not make it to either the LoC or to the family. The
        National Archives would have much of the original of letters send to and
        from USG by the Secretary of War, and Headquarters, USA -- both have
        been microfilmed.

        Grant's letter book has his copy. The actual sent document may be in the
        collection of some other general or at NARA.

        Additionally, headquarters would copy the received letter/order/telegram
        into a "Letters Received" volume. Indexing sucks on these: it usually
        was an alpha list in the front, with the first name under "A" being the
        first person whose letter was received or to whom USG wrote, which is
        contained in that volume. Additional letters from that person would be
        referenced by page number -- but if General Azzol :>) wrote to USG, all
        of his letters would be listed first, before General Aardvaack. And
        their location in the volume is really chronological.

        Confused? It gets better: the letters, reports, orders received, were
        copied by a clerk. With resulting inaccuracies. For instance, After
        Action regimental reports would be found as copies in the Regimental,
        Brigade, Division, Corps, Army and Adjutant General's volumes. And each
        would be copied a little differently!

        And when the material was compiled for the OR, it would be copied again.
        See Aimone's volume on the history of the Ors for details and compare
        the versions published in the PUSG with the one's in the Ors. Actually,
        most of the OR changes were to standardize grammar, correct spelling and
        standardize salutations and signatures. Grant, for instance, did not
        sign his letters "ULYSSES S. GRANT" as the ORs would have you believe.

        Take care,

        Bob

        Judy and Bob Huddleston
        10643 Sperry Street
        Northglenn, CO 80234-3612
        303.451.6376 Adco@...


        -----Original Message-----
        From: josepharose [mailto:josepharose@...]
        Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 10:35 PM
        To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Orders

        Thank you, Ms. Boone (and Mr. Epperson).

        With the orders in triplicate, I ssume one copy went to the addressee
        and one was kept in Grant's manifold. Where did the third copy go--
        the records of the department or division? Are the manifold copies
        loose or are they bound/attached in their original state?

        You mentioned that Grant's original manifolds are in the LOC; are
        they accessible to the general public? Would I be correct in
        assuming that there are other copies of his orders located in the
        national archives?

        Can you tell me more about these manifolds? Are they generally
        legible? Are they usually written in pencil? There were probably
        many of them; are any missing for the war years?

        To bring up something Mr. Epperson wrote, Porter's book, IIRC, had
        Grant at a table pushing papers across it after he finished with each
        one. Should we assume that these were other of his wartime writings,
        such as correspondence, and not orders?

        Were the use of these manifolds common to most or all US generals?

        Thanks, again.
        Joseph





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      • Bob Huddleston
        If you have a copy of the Army Regulations, you will find chapter 34 concerns army orders and correspondence with details on how many order books an outfit
        Message 3 of 11 , Feb 1, 2002
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          If you have a copy of the Army Regulations, you will find chapter 34
          concerns army orders and correspondence with details on how many order
          books an outfit should have, etc. The originals of these are in the
          National Archives and available for research. In addition there are page
          after page of the AR with examples of the forms that should be used for
          every thing from Guard Mount to inspection of the outfit's weapons.

          I have somewhere an article from a manuscript collector magazine on the
          technicalities of letter press books. They used a gel and made a sort of
          reverse carbon of the letter as it was being written. The result is
          often unreadable 140 years later, especially if it was written quickly
          and sloppily.

          They used both pens and pencils, and the latter are now smudged and
          really unreadable!

          In addition the Rebels had real paper problems as the war went on.
          Several years ago I had the opportunity to see the actual Appomattox
          correspondence: USG's is in ink on decent paper. Lee's is in pencil on
          horrible paper and unreadable today. Thank heavens copies were made of
          it years ago!

          Take care,

          Bob

          Judy and Bob Huddleston
          10643 Sperry Street
          Northglenn, CO 80234-3612
          303.451.6376 Adco@...



          Does anyone know of a site which explains how Civil War orders were
          written and distributed? With the outcome of many battles hinging on
          the proper transmission of orders, I have several questions
          concerning them.

          I've heard reference to blanks which could be used by officers. Were
          all blanks generally the same, or were there any specialized versions-
          -for requisitions, as an example?

          Carbon paper had been invented well before the war, but the only
          relevant mention which I've seen so far was of the War Department
          buying a large quantity of it in 1870.

          Did officers usually use an order book which kept a copy of all
          outgoing orders? If so, was carbon paper used in them?

          Were most orders written with pencil or pen during the war?

          Thank you for your help,
          Joseph
        • Bob Huddleston
          One question you only partially asked was How many copied were made? Then and now the number depended upon the material. A report would have one for the
          Message 4 of 11 , Feb 1, 2002
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            One question you only partially asked was How many copied were made?
            Then and now the number depended upon the material. A report would have
            one for the recipient and one for the sender to retain. An order would
            depend upon the necessary distribution. General Orders often were set in
            type and printed; Special Orders concerning leaves and detachments might
            also be set in type and printed in the an abbreviated format, with the
            subject receiving a couple of copies of the portion which concerned him.

            With only two types of orders (see the insertion below from the 1861 US
            Army Regulations about the differences -- CS used identical wording),
            Field Orders and attack orders were part of the Special Order series.

            Perhaps the most famous single order of the CW was Special Order 191,
            Series of 1862, Headquarters, Army of Northern Virginia, the famous
            "Lost Order."

            Because it had to go out to various commands, the order was first
            drafter and then approved by Gen. Lee. Then clerks were gathered and
            they copied the order the necessary number of times. A copy was placed
            in an envelope, addressed and delivered. The messenger was responsible
            for delivering it, and, as proof of delivery, having the recipient sign
            the envelope, which the messenger had to take back.

            Unlike modern practice, where copies of Top Secret documents are
            numbered, CW orders weren't. And I have never seen a log of delivered
            orders: it was the responsibility of the adjutant general (Rawlins, in
            USG's case) to make certain that all the messengers returned with the
            signed envelopes -- which were tossed in the fire.

            The Antietam Group got into an argument (shocking, I know!) a few years
            ago about the number of copies of SO 191 that were sent. No one knows
            for certain, but, at a minimum, there would have been:

            1. Retained by HQ, ANV
            2 & 3 to Longstreet and Jackson, the Wong Commanders
            4 to Stuart the cavalry division commander.

            Here is where things got messed up: a fifth went to Harvey Hill, since
            part of SO 191 detached him from Jackson's command and made Hill's
            division report directly to HQ, ANV.

            But, since the order did not have, as a modern one would, a distribution
            list, Jackson copied the relevant portions and sent this to Hill. It is
            now part of the Hill papers at the UNC.

            Hill, having received a copy of SO 191, did not know that Lee had sent
            one to him. And the messenger never reported back to HQ, ANV with a
            signed envelope. Instead the envelope and the order ended up in the
            McClellan papers at the LoC.

            One difference between Grant and Lee was that the latter verbally
            drafted orders then Col. Marshall, Lee's AAG, would put them into proper
            written form. USG, OTOH, wrote the original copy, which the HQ clerks
            would then in turn copy for distribution.

            Take care,

            Bob

            Judy and Bob Huddleston
            10643 Sperry Street
            Northglenn, CO 80234-3612
            303.451.6376 Adco@...

            432. The orders of commanders of armies, divisions, brigades,
            regiments, are denominated orders of such army, division, &c., and are
            either general or special. Orders are numbered, general and special, in
            separate series, each beginning with the year.

            433. General orders announce the time and place of issues and
            payments; hours for roll-calls and duties; the number and kind of
            orderlies, and the time when they shall be relieved; police regulations,
            and the prohibitions required by circumstances and localities; returns
            to be made, and their forms; laws and regulations for the army;
            promotions and appointments; eulogies or censures to corps or
            individuals, and generally, whatever it may be important to make known
            to the whole command.
            434. Special orders are such as do not concern the troops generally,
            and need not be published to the whole command; such as relate to the
            march of some particular corps, the establishment of some post, the
            detaching of individuals, the granting requests, &c., &c.
          • hvonbork@aol.com
            Bob- Thanks and my compliments for your most interesting, detailed post. Jack
            Message 5 of 11 , Feb 1, 2002
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              Bob-
                    Thanks and my compliments for your most interesting, detailed post.
                    Jack
            • josepharose
              Bob, Thanks hugely. Knowing of your previous posts, I assume that you provided this abundance of information off the top of your head. One reason that I d be
              Message 6 of 11 , Feb 1, 2002
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                Bob,

                Thanks hugely. Knowing of your previous posts, I assume that you
                provided this abundance of information off the top of your head.

                One reason that I'd be interested in the generals' original order
                books is that they could provide the best chronologically-ordered
                orders, in those cases where a time isn't noted. In the ORs, there
                seems to be a number of instances where various orders with the same
                date were printed in an incorrect order.

                Other orders in the ORs may have incorrect timestamps; for
                Chattanooga, one message to Reynolds has Granger, Sheridan, and Hazen
                at Bragg's HQs on the ridge before the attack even started (maybe
                they had been invited for tea).

                Are these order books located at the LOC or the Archives and are they
                available for public perusal?

                Thanks, again,
                Joseph





                --- In civilwarwest@y..., "Bob Huddleston" <adco12@m...> wrote:
                > One question you only partially asked was How many copied were made?
                > Then and now the number depended upon the material. A report would
                have
                > one for the recipient and one for the sender to retain. An order
                would
                > depend upon the necessary distribution. General Orders often were
                set in
                > type and printed; Special Orders concerning leaves and detachments
                might
                > also be set in type and printed in the an abbreviated format, with
                the
                > subject receiving a couple of copies of the portion which concerned
                him.
                >
                > With only two types of orders (see the insertion below from the
                1861 US
                > Army Regulations about the differences -- CS used identical
                wording),
                > Field Orders and attack orders were part of the Special Order
                series.
                >
                > Perhaps the most famous single order of the CW was Special Order
                191,
                > Series of 1862, Headquarters, Army of Northern Virginia, the famous
                > "Lost Order."
                >
                > Because it had to go out to various commands, the order was first
                > drafter and then approved by Gen. Lee. Then clerks were gathered and
                > they copied the order the necessary number of times. A copy was
                placed
                > in an envelope, addressed and delivered. The messenger was
                responsible
                > for delivering it, and, as proof of delivery, having the recipient
                sign
                > the envelope, which the messenger had to take back.
                >
                > Unlike modern practice, where copies of Top Secret documents are
                > numbered, CW orders weren't. And I have never seen a log of
                delivered
                > orders: it was the responsibility of the adjutant general (Rawlins,
                in
                > USG's case) to make certain that all the messengers returned with
                the
                > signed envelopes -- which were tossed in the fire.
                >
                > The Antietam Group got into an argument (shocking, I know!) a few
                years
                > ago about the number of copies of SO 191 that were sent. No one
                knows
                > for certain, but, at a minimum, there would have been:
                >
                > 1. Retained by HQ, ANV
                > 2 & 3 to Longstreet and Jackson, the Wong Commanders
                > 4 to Stuart the cavalry division commander.
                >
                > Here is where things got messed up: a fifth went to Harvey Hill,
                since
                > part of SO 191 detached him from Jackson's command and made Hill's
                > division report directly to HQ, ANV.
                >
                > But, since the order did not have, as a modern one would, a
                distribution
                > list, Jackson copied the relevant portions and sent this to Hill.
                It is
                > now part of the Hill papers at the UNC.
                >
                > Hill, having received a copy of SO 191, did not know that Lee had
                sent
                > one to him. And the messenger never reported back to HQ, ANV with a
                > signed envelope. Instead the envelope and the order ended up in the
                > McClellan papers at the LoC.
                >
                > One difference between Grant and Lee was that the latter verbally
                > drafted orders then Col. Marshall, Lee's AAG, would put them into
                proper
                > written form. USG, OTOH, wrote the original copy, which the HQ
                clerks
                > would then in turn copy for distribution.
                >
                > Take care,
                >
                > Bob
                >
                > Judy and Bob Huddleston
                > 10643 Sperry Street
                > Northglenn, CO 80234-3612
                > 303.451.6376 Adco@F...
                >
                > 432. The orders of commanders of armies, divisions, brigades,
                > regiments, are denominated orders of such army, division, &c., and
                are
                > either general or special. Orders are numbered, general and
                special, in
                > separate series, each beginning with the year.
                >
                > 433. General orders announce the time and place of issues and
                > payments; hours for roll-calls and duties; the number and kind of
                > orderlies, and the time when they shall be relieved; police
                regulations,
                > and the prohibitions required by circumstances and localities;
                returns
                > to be made, and their forms; laws and regulations for the army;
                > promotions and appointments; eulogies or censures to corps or
                > individuals, and generally, whatever it may be important to make
                known
                > to the whole command.
                > 434. Special orders are such as do not concern the troops
                generally,
                > and need not be published to the whole command; such as relate to
                the
                > march of some particular corps, the establishment of some post, the
                > detaching of individuals, the granting requests, &c., &c.
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