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Re: [civilwarwest] Perseverance (was Lee)

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  • cob2mo
    Xan, Maybe Vicksburg held out simply because that was the Victorian Way. Or maybe the Southern way. Let try to put the question in some perspective. These were
    Message 1 of 14 , Jun 4, 2000
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      Xan, Maybe Vicksburg held out simply because that was the Victorian Way. Or
      maybe the Southern way. Let try to put the question in some perspective.
      These were southerners fighting on southern soil. It's difficult to "give
      up" something that you perceive is "yours". If I may take a modern day
      example or two? Ruby Ridge in Idaho or Waco in Texas. I am not condoning
      either, just attempting to lay some parallels. All of these people were
      willing to fight over-whelming odds for something they believed in.
      -----Original Message-----
      From: L.A. Chambliss <xanthipp@...>
      To: civilwarwest@egroups.com <civilwarwest@egroups.com>
      Date: Sunday, June 04, 2000 8:49 PM
      Subject: [civilwarwest] Perseverance (was Lee)


      >Cob makes a good point (we ARE supposed to be talking about "The Other
      Civil
      >War" here) but that does not mean we have to dump this topic entirely.
      There
      >are plenty of examples in the West of generals who shouldered on despite
      heavy
      >odds, seemingy-impossible situations, etc.
      >
      >One such situation that has always puzzled me is Pemberton in Vicksburg.
      Once
      >he got backed into the town, why did he not just surrender his forces
      >immediately? What was the point of putting not only his men, but a fair
      sized
      >civilian population, through the kind of privations they endured under the
      >siege? Did he think he was tying Grant down and buying time for either
      relief
      >to arrive or for Confederate forces to accomplish something elsewhere?
      >
      >Just wonderin'..... :-)
      >
      >Laurie "Xan" Chambliss
      >
      >
      >cob2mo wrote:
      >
      >> As much as I admire Lee. Lets not forget that this forum is supposed to
      be
      >> western theater. Lets talk about the real war not the war in the east.
      Lets
      >> discuss the JO Shelby's and the Prices and the Lyon the Fremont. The
      Battle
      >> at Wilson Creek aka Oak Hill. Shiloh, or Cornith Mobile etc. Now I will
      >> shut up! Cobber
      >> -----Original Message-----
      >> From: aero1485@... <aero1485@...>
      >> To: civilwarwest@egroups.com <civilwarwest@egroups.com>
      >> Date: Saturday, June 03, 2000 10:12 PM
      >> Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: LEE
      >>
      >> >Looking at the human side of Lee, I would agree that he could have been
      >> >thinking about Washington at Valley Forge. Many times in history, men
      have
      >> >persevered over impossible odds. So...why would a man like Lee just
      give
      >> up
      >> >without trying to overcome the odds?
      >> >
      >> >Victor
      >> >
      >> >------------------------------------------------------------------------
      >> >Missing old school friends? Find them here:
      >> >http://click.egroups.com/1/4055/3/_/14182/_/960088358/
      >> >------------------------------------------------------------------------
      >> >
      >> >
      >>
      >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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      >> or less? Join beMANY! Our huge buying group gives you rates which
      >> fall monthly, plus an extra $60 in FREE calls!
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      >
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    • Don Plezia
      I don t understand this rationale! The Union forces already controlled the mouth of the Mississippi up into Shreveport, Louisiana, I believe. Memphis, north
      Message 2 of 14 , Jun 5, 2000
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        I don't understand this rationale!

        The Union forces already controlled the mouth of the Mississippi up into
        Shreveport, Louisiana, I believe. Memphis, north of Vicksburg, was also
        controlled by the Feds. Arkansas, and Missouri were in most instances
        controlled by the Union.

        What was being shipped by the Confederates in that stretch? What could
        be shipped?

        I think Vicksburg was too high on the list of Confederate priorities and
        Davis's desire to protect 'all' of the confederacy.

        Cordially,


        D. W. Plezia
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Larry McGibben" <rebky@...>
        To: <civilwarwest@egroups.com>
        Sent: Monday, June 05, 2000 3:26 PM
        Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Perseverance (was Lee)


        > Afternoon Xan. As to your question of why Pemberton just did'nt
        surrender his
        > troops immediately at Vicksburg thus compelling Grant to lay siege to
        the city
        > etc. Beside's Pemberton expecting reenforcements, I believe he
        understood the
        > importance of trying to keep Vicksburg from falling and knew if it
        did, that not
        > only would the Confederacy be cut in half, but one of the last major
        supply routes
        > for the South would be severed which would eventually lead to the down
        fall of the
        > Confederacy.
        >
        > KyReb
        >
        > "L.A. Chambliss" wrote:
        >
        > > Cob makes a good point (we ARE supposed to be talking about "The
        Other Civil
        > > War" here) but that does not mean we have to dump this topic
        entirely. There
        > > are plenty of examples in the West of generals who shouldered on
        despite heavy
        > > odds, seemingy-impossible situations, etc.
        > >
        > > One such situation that has always puzzled me is Pemberton in
        Vicksburg. Once
        > > he got backed into the town, why did he not just surrender his
        forces
        > > immediately? What was the point of putting not only his men, but a
        fair sized
        > > civilian population, through the kind of privations they endured
        under the
        > > siege? Did he think he was tying Grant down and buying time for
        either relief
        > > to arrive or for Confederate forces to accomplish something
        elsewhere?
        > >
        > > Just wonderin'..... :-)
        > >
        > > Laurie "Xan" Chambliss
        > >
        > > cob2mo wrote:
        > >
        > > > As much as I admire Lee. Lets not forget that this forum is
        supposed to be
        > > > western theater. Lets talk about the real war not the war in the
        east. Lets
        > > > discuss the JO Shelby's and the Prices and the Lyon the Fremont.
        The Battle
        > > > at Wilson Creek aka Oak Hill. Shiloh, or Cornith Mobile etc. Now
        I will
        > > > shut up! Cobber
        > > > -----Original Message-----
        > > > From: aero1485@... <aero1485@...>
        > > > To: civilwarwest@egroups.com <civilwarwest@egroups.com>
        > > > Date: Saturday, June 03, 2000 10:12 PM
        > > > Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: LEE
        > > >
        > > > >Looking at the human side of Lee, I would agree that he could
        have been
        > > > >thinking about Washington at Valley Forge. Many times in
        history, men have
        > > > >persevered over impossible odds. So...why would a man like Lee
        just give
        > > > up
        > > > >without trying to overcome the odds?
        > > > >
        > > > >Victor
        > > > >
        > > >
        >-----------------------------------------------------------------------
        -
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        > > > >http://click.egroups.com/1/4055/3/_/14182/_/960088358/
        > > >
        >-----------------------------------------------------------------------
        -
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
        --
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        > >
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      • Larry McGibben
        Afternoon Xan. As to your question of why Pemberton just did nt surrender his troops immediately at Vicksburg thus compelling Grant to lay siege to the city
        Message 3 of 14 , Jun 5, 2000
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          Afternoon Xan. As to your question of why Pemberton just did'nt surrender his
          troops immediately at Vicksburg thus compelling Grant to lay siege to the city
          etc. Beside's Pemberton expecting reenforcements, I believe he understood the
          importance of trying to keep Vicksburg from falling and knew if it did, that not
          only would the Confederacy be cut in half, but one of the last major supply routes
          for the South would be severed which would eventually lead to the down fall of the
          Confederacy.

          KyReb

          "L.A. Chambliss" wrote:

          > Cob makes a good point (we ARE supposed to be talking about "The Other Civil
          > War" here) but that does not mean we have to dump this topic entirely. There
          > are plenty of examples in the West of generals who shouldered on despite heavy
          > odds, seemingy-impossible situations, etc.
          >
          > One such situation that has always puzzled me is Pemberton in Vicksburg. Once
          > he got backed into the town, why did he not just surrender his forces
          > immediately? What was the point of putting not only his men, but a fair sized
          > civilian population, through the kind of privations they endured under the
          > siege? Did he think he was tying Grant down and buying time for either relief
          > to arrive or for Confederate forces to accomplish something elsewhere?
          >
          > Just wonderin'..... :-)
          >
          > Laurie "Xan" Chambliss
          >
          > cob2mo wrote:
          >
          > > As much as I admire Lee. Lets not forget that this forum is supposed to be
          > > western theater. Lets talk about the real war not the war in the east. Lets
          > > discuss the JO Shelby's and the Prices and the Lyon the Fremont. The Battle
          > > at Wilson Creek aka Oak Hill. Shiloh, or Cornith Mobile etc. Now I will
          > > shut up! Cobber
          > > -----Original Message-----
          > > From: aero1485@... <aero1485@...>
          > > To: civilwarwest@egroups.com <civilwarwest@egroups.com>
          > > Date: Saturday, June 03, 2000 10:12 PM
          > > Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: LEE
          > >
          > > >Looking at the human side of Lee, I would agree that he could have been
          > > >thinking about Washington at Valley Forge. Many times in history, men have
          > > >persevered over impossible odds. So...why would a man like Lee just give
          > > up
          > > >without trying to overcome the odds?
          > > >
          > > >Victor
          > > >
          > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------
          > > >Missing old school friends? Find them here:
          > > >http://click.egroups.com/1/4055/3/_/14182/_/960088358/
          > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------
          > > >
          > > >
          > >
          > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
          > > How about a flat, no-fee long distance rate of 6.7¢ per min. -
          > > or less? Join beMANY! Our huge buying group gives you rates which
          > > fall monthly, plus an extra $60 in FREE calls!
          > > http://click.egroups.com/1/3820/3/_/14182/_/960169034/
          > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
          >
          > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
          > BeMANY, where eGroups members SAVE on long distance.
          > http://click.egroups.com/1/4121/3/_/14182/_/960169781/
          > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
        • mobile_96
          ... could ... priorities and ... Vicksburg s control of the river prevented commerce from the upper Mississippi to the Gulf,which states like Illinios,Michigan
          Message 4 of 14 , Jun 5, 2000
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            --- In civilwarwest@egroups.com, "Don Plezia" <oneplez@e...> wrote:
            >
            > What was being shipped by the Confederates in that stretch? What
            could
            > be shipped?
            >
            > I think Vicksburg was too high on the list of Confederate
            priorities
            and
            > Davis's desire to protect 'all' of the confederacy.
            >
            > Cordially,
            >
            >
            > D. W. Plezia

            Vicksburg's control of the river prevented commerce from the upper
            Mississippi to the Gulf,which states like Illinios,Michigan and
            Indiana were telling Lincoln they wanted open so they could move
            their products. With the Union taking Vicksburg they would split the
            south in two, and prevent the movement of foodstuffs, manpower and
            material, including Mercury for "caps" and horses, which the south
            needed very badly, from Arkansas, Louisiana, and Texas. Also the
            Southern Railroad of Mississippi made the city a strategic importance.
            Therefore, Vicksburg was a political, economic and military prize
            for Lincoln.
            Pemberton was picked by J.Davis especially to defend Vicksburg with
            Johnston assigned to command a area encompassing Vicksburg but did
            not specifically include Pemberton and his forces. The 2 were supposed
            to work together to protect all the approaches to the city and the
            city itself. But it appears as if Johnston was not sure of his duties
            and failed to direct all his forces in a effective direction, and
            that
            probably contributed to the downfall of Vicksburg. (IMHO)
          • philip@twinoaks.org
            To: From: Don Plezia Date sent: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 14:45:46 -0400 Send reply
            Message 5 of 14 , Jun 5, 2000
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              To: <civilwarwest@egroups.com>
              From: "Don Plezia" <oneplez@...>
              Date sent: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 14:45:46 -0400
              Send reply to: civilwarwest@egroups.com
              Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Perseverance (was Lee)

              > I don't understand this rationale!
              >
              > The Union forces already controlled the mouth of the Mississippi up
              > into Shreveport, Louisiana, I believe. Memphis, north of Vicksburg,
              > was also controlled by the Feds. Arkansas, and Missouri were in most
              > instances controlled by the Union.
              >
              > What was being shipped by the Confederates in that stretch? What
              > could be shipped?
              >
              > I think Vicksburg was too high on the list of Confederate priorities
              > and Davis's desire to protect 'all' of the confederacy.
              >
              A few thoughts: First, while I have repeatedly read in this
              discussion group that there was little of signifcance in the Trans-
              Mississippi, I have read elsewhere that there were cattle and other
              resources that continued to be shipped out of Texas and Lousiana
              down the Red River until the Mississippi was finally closed. But
              let's assume for the sake of argument that this was not a
              significant factor. Secondly, hope springs eternal or some such
              thing. There was talk of the possibility of reinforcements coming
              from the Eastern theatre, to combine with Johnston and make the
              attempt to relieve Pemberton's army. Either way, it would make no
              sense to bottle yourself up in Vicksburg, and then turn right around
              and surrender. He should have never gone in there in the first
              place. If, as you say that the strategic significance was minimal,
              then the political signifcance must have loomed large. The
              Anaconda Plan to encircle the Confederacy and slowly strangle it
              was a real factor in the war. To lose Vicksburg was to see the
              circle completed (aside from the holes in the blockade). It must
              have been very demoralizing. Losing the Trans-Mississippi must
              not have gone down so well with the folks from that area, either. A
              government's first pledge in war is to protect all of its citizens, and
              the government in Richmond could hardly have written off Texas
              and others without repercussions in the rest of the Confederacy. It
              is probably a bit like amputation: you know it has to go, but can't
              let go. One other political factor may have been the dreams and
              aspirations of the Confederacy. Before the war, a great deal was
              made about the expansion of slavery into new territories in the
              West, possible expansion into Mexico, Central America and Cuba.
              Some would say that one of the main causes of the war was the
              demand that they be allowed to expand slavery into those areas,
              while the resistance to those ideas was increasing in the North. To
              lose the Trans-Mississippi may have been to see those dreams
              crushed. They may have felt that they would never again have
              access to those regions.
              Just a few thoughts.
              Philip Callen
            • D. Andrew Burden, Ph.D.
              Hello all I hate to keep this thread going, since we have covered V burg before, but I find myself again unconvinced that loss of V burg was as significant an
              Message 6 of 14 , Jun 6, 2000
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                Hello all
                I hate to keep this thread going, since we have covered V'burg before,
                but I find myself again unconvinced that loss of V'burg was as
                significant an event as, say, the loss of Donelson or the Tullahoma
                campaign. On the other hand, I really don't know this. I'm just too
                doggone lazy to get up off my bum and go looking for hard numbers, i.e.,
                how many troops were in the Trans-Mississippi when V'burg fell, how many
                resources were really provided by this region, etc. One must also
                consider that if the loss of V'burg was perceived by virtually everyone
                at the time as monumental, then whether it objectively was or not, the
                effect on morale would still be the same. While hard number comparisons
                would be nice (and surely if in no other place somebody out there has
                written a master's thesis or doctoral dissertation on this question of
                hard numbers, but again I must confess I haven't looked), this question
                of the effect on morale should not be underestimated. Lastly, weren't
                there rumors of Pemberton's disloyalty? I don't know that there is any
                evidence at all for this, but an interesting what-if. Thanks for
                listening.
                Andy

                "L.A. Chambliss" wrote:
                >
                > Cob makes a good point (we ARE supposed to be talking about "The Other Civil
                > War" here) but that does not mean we have to dump this topic entirely. There
                > are plenty of examples in the West of generals who shouldered on despite heavy
                > odds, seemingy-impossible situations, etc.
                >
                > One such situation that has always puzzled me is Pemberton in Vicksburg. Once
                > he got backed into the town, why did he not just surrender his forces
                > immediately? What was the point of putting not only his men, but a fair sized
                > civilian population, through the kind of privations they endured under the
                > siege? Did he think he was tying Grant down and buying time for either relief
                > to arrive or for Confederate forces to accomplish something elsewhere?
                >
                > Just wonderin'..... :-)
                >
                > Laurie "Xan" Chambliss
                >
                > cob2mo wrote:
                >
                > > As much as I admire Lee. Lets not forget that this forum is supposed to be
                > > western theater. Lets talk about the real war not the war in the east. Lets
                > > discuss the JO Shelby's and the Prices and the Lyon the Fremont. The Battle
                > > at Wilson Creek aka Oak Hill. Shiloh, or Cornith Mobile etc. Now I will
                > > shut up! Cobber
                > > -----Original Message-----
                > > From: aero1485@... <aero1485@...>
                > > To: civilwarwest@egroups.com <civilwarwest@egroups.com>
                > > Date: Saturday, June 03, 2000 10:12 PM
                > > Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: LEE
                > >
                > > >Looking at the human side of Lee, I would agree that he could have been
                > > >thinking about Washington at Valley Forge. Many times in history, men have
                > > >persevered over impossible odds. So...why would a man like Lee just give
                > > up
                > > >without trying to overcome the odds?
                > > >
                > > >Victor
                > > >
                > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------
                > > >Missing old school friends? Find them here:
                > > >http://click.egroups.com/1/4055/3/_/14182/_/960088358/
                > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------
                > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                > > How about a flat, no-fee long distance rate of 6.7¢ per min. -
                > > or less? Join beMANY! Our huge buying group gives you rates which
                > > fall monthly, plus an extra $60 in FREE calls!
                > > http://click.egroups.com/1/3820/3/_/14182/_/960169034/
                > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                >
                > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                > BeMANY, where eGroups members SAVE on long distance.
                > http://click.egroups.com/1/4121/3/_/14182/_/960169781/
                > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
              • D. Andrew Burden, Ph.D.
                Hello all I hate to keep this thread going, since we have covered V burg before, but I find myself again unconvinced that loss of V burg was as significant an
                Message 7 of 14 , Jun 6, 2000
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                  Hello all
                  I hate to keep this thread going, since we have covered V'burg before,
                  but I find myself again unconvinced that loss of V'burg was as
                  significant an event as, say, the loss of Donelson or the Tullahoma
                  campaign. On the other hand, I really don't know this. I'm just too
                  doggone lazy to get up off my bum and go looking for hard numbers, i.e.,
                  how many troops were in the Trans-Mississippi when V'burg fell, how many
                  resources were really provided by this region, etc. One must also
                  consider that if the loss of V'burg was perceived by virtually everyone
                  at the time as monumental, then whether it objectively was or not, the
                  effect on morale would still be the same. While hard number comparisons
                  would be nice (and surely if in no other place somebody out there has
                  written a master's thesis or doctoral dissertation on this question of
                  hard numbers, but again I must confess I haven't looked), this question
                  of the effect on morale should not be underestimated. Lastly, weren't
                  there rumors of Pemberton's disloyalty? I don't know that there is any
                  evidence at all for this, but an interesting what-if. Thanks for
                  listening.
                  Andy

                  "L.A. Chambliss" wrote:
                  >
                  > Cob makes a good point (we ARE supposed to be talking about "The Other Civil
                  > War" here) but that does not mean we have to dump this topic entirely. There
                  > are plenty of examples in the West of generals who shouldered on despite heavy
                  > odds, seemingy-impossible situations, etc.
                  >
                  > One such situation that has always puzzled me is Pemberton in Vicksburg. Once
                  > he got backed into the town, why did he not just surrender his forces
                  > immediately? What was the point of putting not only his men, but a fair sized
                  > civilian population, through the kind of privations they endured under the
                  > siege? Did he think he was tying Grant down and buying time for either relief
                  > to arrive or for Confederate forces to accomplish something elsewhere?
                  >
                  > Just wonderin'..... :-)
                  >
                  > Laurie "Xan" Chambliss
                  >
                  > cob2mo wrote:
                  >
                  > > As much as I admire Lee. Lets not forget that this forum is supposed to be
                  > > western theater. Lets talk about the real war not the war in the east. Lets
                  > > discuss the JO Shelby's and the Prices and the Lyon the Fremont. The Battle
                  > > at Wilson Creek aka Oak Hill. Shiloh, or Cornith Mobile etc. Now I will
                  > > shut up! Cobber
                  > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > From: aero1485@... <aero1485@...>
                  > > To: civilwarwest@egroups.com <civilwarwest@egroups.com>
                  > > Date: Saturday, June 03, 2000 10:12 PM
                  > > Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: LEE
                  > >
                  > > >Looking at the human side of Lee, I would agree that he could have been
                  > > >thinking about Washington at Valley Forge. Many times in history, men have
                  > > >persevered over impossible odds. So...why would a man like Lee just give
                  > > up
                  > > >without trying to overcome the odds?
                  > > >
                  > > >Victor
                  > > >
                  > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  > > >Missing old school friends? Find them here:
                  > > >http://click.egroups.com/1/4055/3/_/14182/_/960088358/
                  > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  > > How about a flat, no-fee long distance rate of 6.7¢ per min. -
                  > > or less? Join beMANY! Our huge buying group gives you rates which
                  > > fall monthly, plus an extra $60 in FREE calls!
                  > > http://click.egroups.com/1/3820/3/_/14182/_/960169034/
                  > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  > BeMANY, where eGroups members SAVE on long distance.
                  > http://click.egroups.com/1/4121/3/_/14182/_/960169781/
                  > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                • hvonbork@aol.com
                  Andy- The loss of Vicksburg cost Pemberton his Generalship and much suspicion for many as he was not a Southerner by birth. In my view, however, he certainly
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jun 6, 2000
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                    Andy-
                    The loss of Vicksburg cost Pemberton his Generalship and much suspicion
                    for many as he was not a Southerner by birth. In my view, however, he
                    certainly demonstrated his integrity in serving out the balance of the war in
                    Richmond as a light- Colonel.
                  • hvonbork@aol.com
                    Andy- The loss of Vicksburg cost Pemberton his Generalship and much suspicion for many as he was not a Southerner by birth. In my view, however, he certainly
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jun 6, 2000
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                      Andy-
                      The loss of Vicksburg cost Pemberton his Generalship and much suspicion
                      for many as he was not a Southerner by birth. In my view, however, he
                      certainly demonstrated his integrity in serving out the balance of the war in
                      Richmond as a light- Colonel.
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