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Re: Re: [civilwarwest] Any good books on the great train chase of 1862?

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  • Michael Mason
    We got a guy in my CWRT,who seems to think,that train deal was the turning point of the War. The Baron On 6-Dec-01, Tim Harrison
    Message 1 of 19 , Dec 6, 2001
      We got a guy in my CWRT,who seems to think,that train
      deal was the turning point of the War. The Baron


      On 6-Dec-01, Tim Harrison <tharrison@...> wrote:

      Gentlemen,

      The is an excellent website on the subject of the Great Locomotive Chase which may be found at http://www.greatlocomotivechase.com/. As it happens the site is based on a book called The General & The Texas: A Pictorial History of the Andrews Raid, April 12, 1862 by James G. Bogle and Stan Cohen. The site is really fantastic with a full account of the raid and biographies of the participants.

      If you're looking for more, William Pittenger of the 2nd Ohio Vol., and one of the Raiders, gives his account of the proceedings in Volume 2 of Battles & Leaders of the Civil War.

      Regards,
      Tim Harrison
      www.swcivilwar.com

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: CashG79@...
      To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 1:32 PM
      Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Any good books on the great train chase of 1862?


      In a message dated Thu, 6 Dec 2001 1:12:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, "pmancini" <peter_mancini@...> writes:

      > I found this site on the net that talked about Union raiders stealing
      > the locomotive "The General" and causing havoc in the South until
      > they were caught. Are they any good books on the subject?
      >
      > http://ngeorgia.com/history/raiders.html
      >
      > --Peter
      >

      Because it was such a relatively minor event it is easier to find magazine articles than books on the Great Locomotive Chase. I think there may have been one book written on it, but I believe it's out of print. Interestingly, the Andrews Raiders were honored by the US government for their intrepid raid with a brand new medal created just for them...the Medal of Honor.

      Regards,
      Cash

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    • tnreb48
      Carl, I remeber a movie when I was a kid that starred Fess Parker. I cant rember the name of it though. ... determination ... back!
      Message 2 of 19 , Dec 6, 2001
        Carl,
        I remeber a movie when I was a kid that starred Fess Parker. I cant
        rember the name of it though.


        --- In civilwarwest@y..., "carlw4514" <carlw4514@y...> wrote:
        > A perfectly appropriate subject for our western group! To me one of
        > the most interesting things about it is the incredible
        determination
        > of the Southern engineer to overcome all odds and get his train
        back!
        > Sometimes the Buster Keaton movie is mentioned [THE GENERAL (1927)]
        > but it's a comedy! Were there any other movies made about it?
        > carl
        > --- In civilwarwest@y..., "pmancini" <peter_mancini@m...> wrote:
        > > I found this site on the net that talked about Union raiders
        > stealing
        > > the locomotive "The General" and causing havoc in the South until
        > > they were caught. Are they any good books on the subject?
        > >
        > > http://ngeorgia.com/history/raiders.html
        > >
        > > --Peter
      • Jfepperson@aol.com
        Pittenger also wrote a book on the escapade, titled Daring and Suffering. It was IIRC the basis for the Disney movie (which my 4 year old son loves) and was
        Message 3 of 19 , Dec 6, 2001
          Pittenger also wrote a book on the escapade, titled "Daring and
          Suffering." It was IIRC the basis for the Disney movie (which my
          4 year old son loves) and was reprinted in the 1980s by Time-Life.

          JFE

          James F. Epperson
          http://members.aol.com/jfepperson/causes.html
          http://members.aol.com/siege1864
        • Dick Weeks
          For anyone that might not have Battles and Leaders (I can t imagine who that might be) Pittenger s account is located on my website on this page:
          Message 4 of 19 , Dec 6, 2001
            For anyone that might not have Battles and Leaders (I can't imagine who that might be) Pittenger's account is located on my website on this page:
             
             
            I am, very respectfully, your obedient servant,
            Dick (a.k.a. Shotgun)
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 3:20 PM
            Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Any good books on the great train chase of 1862?

            Gentlemen,
             
                The is an excellent website on the subject of the Great Locomotive Chase which may be found at http://www.greatlocomotivechase.com/.  As it happens the site is based on a book called The General & The Texas: A Pictorial History of the Andrews Raid, April 12, 1862 by James G. Bogle and Stan Cohen.  The site is really fantastic with a full account of the raid and biographies of the participants.
             
                If you're looking for more, William Pittenger of the 2nd Ohio Vol., and one of the Raiders, gives his account of the proceedings in Volume 2 of Battles & Leaders of the Civil War.
             
            Regards,
            Tim Harrison
            www.swcivilwar.com
             
          • glblank
            ... stealing ... Stephen Sears wrote a short on the subject titled (naturally) The Great Locomotive Chase. I cannot any link to it on the web. However I
            Message 5 of 19 , Dec 6, 2001
              --- In civilwarwest@y..., "pmancini" <peter_mancini@m...> wrote:
              > I found this site on the net that talked about Union raiders
              stealing
              > the locomotive "The General" and causing havoc in the South until
              > they were caught. Are they any good books on the subject?

              Stephen Sears wrote a short on the subject titled (naturally) "The
              Great Locomotive Chase." I cannot any link to it on the web.
              However I found it an American Heritage Library collection titled
              "The Civil War" edited by Stepen Sears and printed in 1991.

              Geoff
            • Aurelie1999@aol.com
              I am absolutely fascinated with the strategic impact of railroads throughout the war. What makes the entire story so fascinating is that railroads were new
              Message 6 of 19 , Dec 6, 2001
                I am absolutely fascinated with the strategic impact of railroads throughout
                the war. What makes the entire story so fascinating is that railroads were
                new and had never been covered at West Point. Yet the great rolling wheels
                rapidly became tactical considerations, essential to effective strategic
                planning and weapons in their own right. The tracks stitched the army to
                their supplies and played a part in defeating the South by adding steam to
                the West Point mantra of "celerity."

                Herman Haupt personified Yankee ingenuity when he built the cornstalk bridge
                across Potomac Creek, developed a prefab system for quickly laying and
                repairing track and kept the trains running on time and with precision. In
                the West, Grenville Dodge adapted the English castle system for protecting
                the lines and was able to fix broken track so quickly that the Confederates
                were in complete awe.

                The best book I have found so far on the impact of railroads is Victory Rode
                the Rails by George Edgar Turner which covers both the North and South
                railroad situations. The Northern Railroads in the Civil War by Thomas
                Webber is full of information, but much duller reading. Now I want to get
                one that concentrates completely on the Southern railroads. The CSA also
                displayed the Yankee ingenuity trait by the mere fact that they kept their
                trains running to the end, an almost impossible task considering their lack
                of resources in replenishing rolling stock and tracks. The railroads in the
                CW are an amazing story worthy of a good movie.

                Connie
              • carlw4514
                I agree, the Southern RR story needs to be told, including: - early appreciation of strategic value, greatly effecting First Manassas, for example - the woeful
                Message 7 of 19 , Dec 7, 2001
                  I agree, the Southern RR story needs to be told, including:
                  - early appreciation of strategic value, greatly effecting First
                  Manassas, for example
                  - the woeful situation presented to war planners, including mixed
                  guages from company to company, poor bridges, and the just about
                  exclusive use of strap iron on wood rails instead of real iron rails.
                  These straps naturally often got loose and even wound up poking up in
                  the air, and there are accounts of soldiers and other travelers
                  jumping up on the seats to avoid "snakeheads" ripping up into the
                  cars.
                  - the ingenuity displayed in stealing rolling stock (often dramatic as
                  we have seen).
                  - the continued deterioration becoming nearly unmanageable towards the
                  end.
                  --- In civilwarwest@y..., Aurelie1999@a... wrote:
                  [...] Now I want to get
                  > one that concentrates completely on the Southern railroads. The CSA
                  also
                  > displayed the Yankee ingenuity trait by the mere fact that they kept
                  their
                  > trains running to the end, an almost impossible task considering
                  their lack
                  > of resources in replenishing rolling stock and tracks. The
                  railroads in the
                  > CW are an amazing story worthy of a good movie.
                  >
                  > Connie
                • Aurelie1999@aol.com
                  In a message dated 12/7/01 8:44:43 AM, carlw4514@yahoo.com writes:
                  Message 8 of 19 , Dec 7, 2001
                    In a message dated 12/7/01 8:44:43 AM, carlw4514@... writes:

                    << These straps naturally often got loose and even wound up poking up in
                    the air, and there are accounts of soldiers and other travelers
                    jumping up on the seats to avoid "snakeheads" ripping up into the
                    cars. >>

                    Fascinating detail. Our view of the 1860s railroad experience comes from
                    chugging through a park on a clear, warm summer day in an "authentic" steam
                    powered 2 car train. Course we miss such inconveniences as snake heads,
                    careening around bends, smoke from the stove choking every breath, wooden
                    benches, flying debris from opened windows (to get a breath of fresh air),
                    sniper bullets, fetid hay, lurches, screeches and an abysmal safety record.
                    Then there were late trains, no trains, troop trains, stopovers, walks
                    between stations, head-on collisions, and trains going nowhere.

                    Connie
                  • carlw4514
                    accidents on the RR resulted in the creation of standard time and time zones sometime in the 19th century. Yep, there were instances of engineer Joe pulling
                    Message 9 of 19 , Dec 7, 2001
                      accidents on the RR resulted in the creation of standard time and time
                      zones sometime in the 19th century. Yep, there were instances of
                      engineer Joe pulling out of Podunk and slamming into engineer Sam bcuz
                      he was pulling out of West Whistle Stop 5 miles away and the time was
                      different there and they didnt know they were going to be on the same
                      road at the same time.
                      carl
                      --- In civilwarwest@y..., Aurelie1999@a... wrote:
                      >[..]
                      > Then there were late trains, no trains, troop trains, stopovers,
                      walks
                      > between stations, head-on collisions, and trains going nowhere.
                      >
                      > Connie
                    • John T. Coleman
                      Don t forget, the General is on display in Marietta, GA. John
                      Message 10 of 19 , Dec 8, 2001
                        Don't forget, "the General" is on display in Marietta, GA.

                        John
                      • Bob Huddleston
                        Interestingly, airlines use a lot of RR procedures in running airlines, even using many of the same words: in the industry, smaller airports are called
                        Message 11 of 19 , Dec 13, 2001
                          Interestingly, airlines use a lot of RR procedures in running airlines, even
                          using many of the same words: in the industry, smaller airports are called
                          stations.

                          The RR adopted the telegraph in the 1840s to prevent corn field meets.

                          However, Standard Time was created not for safety but to allow coordination
                          of different rail lines, so that they could pass passengers and freight back
                          and forth. Towns often had three times: sun, and those of any railroads
                          which happened to run into the community. Circa 1885, the predecessor of the
                          American Association of Railroads adopted Standard Time, and most
                          communities fell into place. However, legally, the country as a whole did
                          not adopt it until 1918, when Congress mandated Daylight Savings Time.

                          Take care,

                          Bob

                          Judy and Bob Huddleston
                          10643 Sperry Street
                          Northglenn, CO 80234-3612
                          303.451.6276 Adco@...

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: carlw4514 [mailto:carlw4514@...]
                          Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 10:36 AM
                          To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: RR in the south ( was Any good books ...)


                          accidents on the RR resulted in the creation of standard time and time
                          zones sometime in the 19th century. Yep, there were instances of
                          engineer Joe pulling out of Podunk and slamming into engineer Sam bcuz
                          he was pulling out of West Whistle Stop 5 miles away and the time was
                          different there and they didnt know they were going to be on the same
                          road at the same time.
                          carl
                          --- In civilwarwest@y..., Aurelie1999@a... wrote:
                          >[..]
                          > Then there were late trains, no trains, troop trains, stopovers,
                          walks
                          > between stations, head-on collisions, and trains going nowhere.
                          >
                          > Connie





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                        • carlw4514
                          The man has the facts as usual! Very interesting. I have to say, tho, that safety and coordination of rail lines are not disconnected issues. I have a book
                          Message 12 of 19 , Dec 14, 2001
                            The man has the facts as usual! Very interesting. I have to say, tho,
                            that "safety" and "coordination of rail lines" are not disconnected
                            issues. I have a book on Railroad accidents and it is quite
                            fascinating. Head-on collisions were not unheard of after 1840,
                            sometimes due to incredibly dumb decisions by people on the spot. And
                            then there was the much more common problem of one train having to
                            stop, this unknown to a following train. The standard procedure was to
                            have a trainman hop off and run like the devil with a lantern to try
                            and stop the oncoming one in time. 99 percent of the time there was
                            only one track for all the traffic.
                            carl
                            --- In civilwarwest@y..., "Bob Huddleston" <adco12@m...> wrote:
                            > Interestingly, airlines use a lot of RR procedures in running
                            airlines, even
                            > using many of the same words: in the industry, smaller airports are
                            called
                            > stations.
                            >
                            > The RR adopted the telegraph in the 1840s to prevent corn field
                            meets.
                            >
                            > However, Standard Time was created not for safety but to allow
                            coordination
                            > of different rail lines, so that they could pass passengers and
                            freight back
                            > and forth. Towns often had three times: sun, and those of any
                            railroads
                            > which happened to run into the community. Circa 1885, the
                            predecessor of the
                            > American Association of Railroads adopted Standard Time, and most
                            > communities fell into place. However, legally, the country as a
                            whole did
                            > not adopt it until 1918, when Congress mandated Daylight Savings
                            Time.
                            >
                            > Take care,
                            >
                            > Bob
                            >
                            > Judy and Bob Huddleston
                            > 10643 Sperry Street
                            > Northglenn, CO 80234-3612
                            > 303.451.6276 Adco@F...
                            >
                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: carlw4514 [mailto:carlw4514@y...]
                            > Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 10:36 AM
                            > To: civilwarwest@y...
                            > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: RR in the south ( was Any good books
                            ...)
                            >
                            >
                            > accidents on the RR resulted in the creation of standard time and
                            time
                            > zones sometime in the 19th century. Yep, there were instances of
                            > engineer Joe pulling out of Podunk and slamming into engineer Sam
                            bcuz
                            > he was pulling out of West Whistle Stop 5 miles away and the time
                            was
                            > different there and they didnt know they were going to be on the
                            same
                            > road at the same time.
                            > carl
                            > --- In civilwarwest@y..., Aurelie1999@a... wrote:
                            > >[..]
                            > > Then there were late trains, no trains, troop trains, stopovers,
                            > walks
                            > > between stations, head-on collisions, and trains going nowhere.
                            > >
                            > > Connie
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                            http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          • carlw4514
                            here s something interesting just ran across and explains the motivation for the southern system s changing guage on their RRs in the ACW, which in wartime was
                            Message 13 of 19 , Jan 5, 2002
                              here's something interesting just ran across and explains the
                              motivation for the southern system's changing guage on their RRs in
                              the ACW, which in wartime was a big problem: troops would have to
                              disembark one line and wait to change to a different train in a
                              different station in order to continue.
                              -It's from
                              http://www.continentallocating.com/Marmaduke.htm
                              "...It had been decided to build a narrow gauge line instead of the
                              standard gauge road. One strong argument for the "small" gauge in the
                              south and southwest was that the bulk of traffic was cotton, which
                              would be compressed and large quantities transported without the
                              necessity of large rail cars..."





                              --- In civilwarwest@y..., Aurelie1999@a... wrote:
                              > I am absolutely fascinated with the strategic impact of railroads
                              throughout
                              > the war. What makes the entire story so fascinating is that
                              railroads were
                              > new and had never been covered at West Point. Yet the great rolling
                              wheels
                              > rapidly became tactical considerations, essential to effective
                              strategic
                              > planning and weapons in their own right. The tracks stitched the
                              army to
                              > their supplies and played a part in defeating the South by adding
                              steam to
                              > the West Point mantra of "celerity."
                              >
                              > Herman Haupt personified Yankee ingenuity when he built the
                              cornstalk bridge
                              > across Potomac Creek, developed a prefab system for quickly laying
                              and
                              > repairing track and kept the trains running on time and with
                              precision. In
                              > the West, Grenville Dodge adapted the English castle system for
                              protecting
                              > the lines and was able to fix broken track so quickly that the
                              Confederates
                              > were in complete awe.
                              >
                              > The best book I have found so far on the impact of railroads is
                              Victory Rode
                              > the Rails by George Edgar Turner which covers both the North and
                              South
                              > railroad situations. The Northern Railroads in the Civil War by
                              Thomas
                              > Webber is full of information, but much duller reading. Now I want
                              to get
                              > one that concentrates completely on the Southern railroads. The CSA
                              also
                              > displayed the Yankee ingenuity trait by the mere fact that they kept
                              their
                              > trains running to the end, an almost impossible task considering
                              their lack
                              > of resources in replenishing rolling stock and tracks. The
                              railroads in the
                              > CW are an amazing story worthy of a good movie.
                              >
                              > Connie
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