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Re: Fifteen Most Under Rated Battles of the Civil War

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  • Dave Smith
    ... Thanks. Though I was surprised to learn that Vicksburg was a battle. :-) Actually, when we did this on the Usenet newsgroup alt.war.civil.usa, the
    Message 1 of 28 , Nov 12, 2001
      --- In civilwarwest@y..., sdwakefield@p... wrote:
      > Good Morning this chilly day here in South West Tennessee.
      > For those of you who may not be regular readers of "Civil War
      > Interactive" I thought I would give you a 'heads up' concerning a
      > great series of articles they are now running, called the Fifteen
      > Most Under Rated Battles of the War. Although not limited to
      > Western conflicts several western battles have all ready made the
      > count down.

      Thanks. Though I was surprised to learn that Vicksburg was a
      battle. :-)

      Actually, when we did this on the Usenet newsgroup alt.war.civil.usa,
      the individual battles of the Vicksburg campaign (Port Gibson,
      Champion Hill, etc.) were not very highly voted. When we
      did "campaigns" instead of "battles," the Vicksburg campaign was
      highly regarded as an important campaign.

      Dave
    • wakefield1952@msn.com
      Mr. Smith- I had the same reaction as you when I saw Vicksburg make the list. I think the inclusion of the Battle of Vicksburg shows just how little is
      Message 2 of 28 , Nov 12, 2001
        Mr. Smith-
        I had the same reaction as you when I saw Vicksburg make the list.
        I think the inclusion of the "Battle of Vicksburg" shows just how
        little is generally known of the particulars of this campaign, by
        even modestly well-read Civil War buffs.
        It is my humble belief, that the definitive 'readable' Vicksburg
        Campaign work remains to be written. While I am sure you would agree
        that Bearss' three volumn work is a monumental research work and a
        treasure trove of information somehow it somewhat misses the mark.
        I think that at times it is too detailed and the result becomes that
        the reader can not seem to see and understand the forest for the
        trees. At least this seemed to occur with me.
        Although much time and effort is spent by us 'buffs' discussing
        and analyizing the Grant and Sherman characters and to a lesser
        degree Pemberton and Joe Johnston, I think that written history has
        failed to give due attention, credit or blame to the many other
        leaders of this critical campaign - Bowen, Porter, McPherson,
        Loring, Grierson, Stevenson, Oglesby, Steele, Gregg, McClernand,
        Walker, Logan - just to name a few.
        It seems to me that the Vicksburg, rather than Gettysburg
        Campaign, is a much better demonstration of the underlying themes
        that resulted in ultimate Union victory in the war.

        Just my opinion I could be wrong-
        Wakefield
      • carlw4514@yahoo.com
        I agree about Bearss, he seems to be a writer that is an odd comination of good readability combined with often over-dense detail; he can t seem to cull out
        Message 3 of 28 , Nov 12, 2001
          I agree about Bearss, he seems to be a writer that is an odd
          comination of good readability combined with often over-dense detail;
          he can't seem to cull out stuff that is interesting to him but would
          not be so fascinating to the average reader.
          What was fascinating was to see his enthusiasm - and
          eccentric style - when he was included in the Ken Burns and other
          documentaries. I know some of you know him.
          Carl
          --- In civilwarwest@y..., wakefield1952@m... wrote:
          > Mr. Smith-
          > I had the same reaction as you when I saw Vicksburg make the list.
          > I think the inclusion of the "Battle of Vicksburg" shows just how
          > little is generally known of the particulars of this campaign, by
          > even modestly well-read Civil War buffs.
          > It is my humble belief, that the definitive 'readable' Vicksburg
          > Campaign work remains to be written. While I am sure you would agree
          > that Bearss' three volumn work is a monumental research work and a
          > treasure trove of information somehow it somewhat misses the mark.
          > I think that at times it is too detailed and the result becomes that
          > the reader can not seem to see and understand the forest for the
          > trees. At least this seemed to occur with me.
          > Although much time and effort is spent by us 'buffs' discussing
          > and analyizing the Grant and Sherman characters and to a lesser
          > degree Pemberton and Joe Johnston, I think that written history has

          > failed to give due attention, credit or blame to the many other
          > leaders of this critical campaign - Bowen, Porter, McPherson,
          > Loring, Grierson, Stevenson, Oglesby, Steele, Gregg, McClernand,
          > Walker, Logan - just to name a few.
          > It seems to me that the Vicksburg, rather than Gettysburg
          > Campaign, is a much better demonstration of the underlying themes
          > that resulted in ultimate Union victory in the war.
          >
          > Just my opinion I could be wrong-
          > Wakefield
        • Dave Smith
          ... I tend to agree. ... I agree again. Ed s work is monumental, but is first and foremost a military treatment. And let s face it - Bruce Catton, or Shelby
          Message 4 of 28 , Nov 13, 2001
            --- In civilwarwest@y..., wakefield1952@m... wrote:
            > Mr. Smith-
            > I had the same reaction as you when I saw Vicksburg make the
            > list. I think the inclusion of the "Battle of Vicksburg" shows just
            > how little is generally known of the particulars of this campaign,
            > by even modestly well-read Civil War buffs.

            I tend to agree.

            > It is my humble belief, that the definitive 'readable' Vicksburg
            > Campaign work remains to be written. While I am sure you would
            > agree that Bearss' three volumn work is a monumental research work
            > and a treasure trove of information somehow it somewhat misses the
            > mark. I think that at times it is too detailed and the result
            > becomes that the reader can not seem to see and understand the
            > forest for the trees. At least this seemed to occur with me.

            I agree again. Ed's work is monumental, but is first and foremost a
            military treatment. And let's face it - Bruce Catton, or Shelby
            Foote, Ed isn't.

            I think the best single-volume work is the somewhat obscure, and out-
            of-print, work by Samuel Carter III titled "Vicksburg: The Final
            Fortress."

            The problem, I think, is simply the question of how to condense
            everything, Union and Confederate military issues, Union and
            Confederate political issues, and Vicksburg civilians into one single
            volume. It reminds me of the relative degree of disappointment I
            felt when reading Sears' work on the Peninsula Campaign.

            > Although much time and effort is spent by us 'buffs' discussing
            > and analyizing the Grant and Sherman characters and to a lesser
            > degree Pemberton and Joe Johnston, I think that written history
            > has failed to give due attention, credit or blame to the many
            > other leaders of this critical campaign - Bowen, Porter, McPherson,
            > Loring, Grierson, Stevenson, Oglesby, Steele, Gregg, McClernand,
            > Walker, Logan - just to name a few.

            I've also thought that perhaps a Gordon Rhea-style approach - a
            series of relative standalone books, which encompasses the whole,
            might well work. The problem is, I think, that the part people want
            to get to - post Bruinsburg - comes later in such a series. Perhaps
            they'd have to be written out of order.

            I'd be interested to hear Brooks's thoughts on this.

            > It seems to me that the Vicksburg, rather than Gettysburg
            > Campaign, is a much better demonstration of the underlying themes
            > that resulted in ultimate Union victory in the war.

            If you subscribe to the belief that the Confederacy lost the war in
            the west, it certainly does. And let's face it, the farther one
            moves west from Jefferson Davis's desk in Richmond, the weaker his
            performance as Commander-in-Chief becomes.

            Dave
          • Dave Smith
            ... snip ... Ed was kind enough to do several things for me with the Pemberton manuscript - not only read it, and write the foreword for it, but also
            Message 5 of 28 , Nov 13, 2001
              --- In civilwarwest@y..., carlw4514@y... wrote:

              snip

              > What was fascinating was to see his enthusiasm - and
              > eccentric style - when he was included in the Ken Burns and other
              > documentaries. I know some of you know him.

              Ed was kind enough to do several things for me with the Pemberton
              manuscript - not only read it, and write the foreword for it, but
              also painstakingly catch a number of mistakes I'd made in my section
              of writing. It's simply amazing how many ways you can
              mispell "Yalobusha" and not even realize it.

              The other thing about Ed is that for Historian Emeritus of the NPS,
              you will not find a more down-to-earth guy. Many times, scholars at
              Civil War conferences tend to be somewhat aloof, keeping to
              themselves and not mingling with the audience. Not Ed. He is always
              out in the crowd, introducing himself, and making the life of the
              conference coordinators a heck of a lot easier.

              Dave

              Dave Smith
              Villa Hills, KY
            • Aurelie1999@aol.com
              I agree that the Samuel Carter book published in 1980 is quite good and very readable. For me it was a solid basis to begin understanding the Vicksburg
              Message 6 of 28 , Nov 13, 2001
                I agree that the Samuel Carter book published in 1980 is quite good and very
                readable. For me it was a solid basis to begin understanding the Vicksburg
                campaign. Carter does a pretty good job weaving all the elements into one
                panorama. He may not be Bearss equal in knowledge or presenting detail, but
                I thought it was still good. My problem with Bearss is the same as everyone
                else, I can't get through the mire of his minutiae. His articles in Blue and
                Gray persuaded me to avoid his more extensive work as I don't have the
                chessboard facility for conquering microscopic smidgens and assembling iota
                into a comprehensive whole.

                Connie
              • brooksdsimpson@yahoo.com
                ... want ... Perhaps ... I think that it is true that the lead-up to the April movements would be slow going for some people -- I know that I found myself
                Message 7 of 28 , Nov 13, 2001
                  --- In civilwarwest@y..., "Dave Smith" <dmsmith001@y...> wrote:

                  > I've also thought that perhaps a Gordon Rhea-style approach - a
                  > series of relative standalone books, which encompasses the whole,
                  > might well work. The problem is, I think, that the part people
                  want
                  > to get to - post Bruinsburg - comes later in such a series.
                  Perhaps
                  > they'd have to be written out of order.
                  >
                  > I'd be interested to hear Brooks's thoughts on this.

                  I think that it is true that the lead-up to the April movements would
                  be slow going for some people -- I know that I found myself impatient
                  to get on to the crossing when I wrote my chapter on Vicksburg -- and
                  that the period after May 22 is largely ignored (which is one reason
                  the Yazoo bender story gets so much play -- the assumption is that
                  nothing was going on, when in fact a great deal was going on).

                  There's probably room for two solid single-volume studies. One would
                  be primarily a military study, not as detailed as that offered in
                  Ed's OR-bound narrative; I found the recent James Arnold book to be a
                  disappointment in that it simply reoffered what was offered before.
                  The second would be a study that took a larger view of the campaign,
                  complete with its relation to politics and social change -- life
                  inside Vicksburg, what happened along the line of march, the
                  induction and training of black soldiers, and so on.

                  The military study might also shift the camera from Grant to
                  Pemberton once in a while. Too often the Confederate leaders are
                  treated as objects, awaiting Grant's next decision. Put yourself in
                  Pemberton's place on April 15, 1863, and tell me what you do for the
                  next five weeks.

                  Finally, I don't think people appreciate how this was truly Grant's
                  finest hour. We give that notion lip service, but the fact is that
                  Grant was simply brilliant during the campaign. Not flawless, but
                  brilliant -- with a good bit of guts thrown in.
                • Michael Mason
                  Grant was at his finest hour,but there was little or no margin of error in this campaign. The Baron On 13-Nov-01, brooksdsimpson@yahoo.com wrote:
                  Message 8 of 28 , Nov 13, 2001
                    Grant was at his finest hour,but there was little or no margin
                    of error in this campaign. The Baron


                    On 13-Nov-01, brooksdsimpson@... wrote:
                    <html><body>
                    <tt>
                    --- In civilwarwest@y..., "Dave Smith" <dmsmith001@y...> wrote:<BR>
                    <BR>
                    > I've also thought that perhaps a Gordon Rhea-style approach - a <BR>
                    > series of relative standalone books, which encompasses the whole, <BR>
                    > might well work.� The problem is, I think, that the part people <BR>
                    want <BR>
                    > to get to - post Bruinsburg - comes later in such a series.� <BR>
                    Perhaps <BR>
                    > they'd have to be written out of order.<BR>
                    > <BR>
                    > I'd be interested to hear Brooks's thoughts on this.<BR>
                    <BR>
                    I think that it is true that the lead-up to the April movements would <BR>
                    be slow going for some people -- I know that I found myself impatient <BR>
                    to get on to the crossing when I wrote my chapter on Vicksburg -- and <BR>
                    that the period after May 22 is largely ignored (which is one reason <BR>
                    the Yazoo bender story gets so much play -- the assumption is that <BR>
                    nothing was going on, when in fact a great deal was going on).� <BR>
                    <BR>
                    There's probably room for two solid single-volume studies.� One would <BR>
                    be primarily a military study, not as detailed as that offered in <BR>
                    Ed's OR-bound narrative; I found the recent James Arnold book to be a <BR>
                    disappointment in that it simply reoffered what was offered before.� <BR>
                    The second would be a study that took a larger view of the campaign, <BR>
                    complete with its relation to politics and social change -- life <BR>
                    inside Vicksburg, what happened along the line of march, the <BR>
                    induction and training of black soldiers, and so on. <BR>
                    <BR>
                    The military study might also shift the camera from Grant to <BR>
                    Pemberton once in a while.� Too often the Confederate leaders are <BR>
                    treated as objects, awaiting Grant's next decision.� Put yourself in <BR>
                    Pemberton's place on April 15, 1863, and tell me what you do for the <BR>
                    next five weeks. <BR>
                    <BR>
                    Finally, I don't think people appreciate how this was truly Grant's <BR>
                    finest hour.� We give that notion lip service, but the fact is that <BR>
                    Grant was simply brilliant during the campaign.� Not flawless, but <BR>
                    brilliant -- with a good bit of guts thrown in.��� <BR>
                    <BR>
                    </tt>

                    <br>

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                  • carlw4514@yahoo.com
                    I do think, though, that Grant had an exit strategy, should things not go so well; no one seems to know or say what that was, to my knowledge. I have my own
                    Message 9 of 28 , Nov 14, 2001
                      I do think, though, that Grant had an exit strategy, should things
                      not go so well; no one seems to know or say what that was, to my
                      knowledge. I have my own guesses - pure speculations - that at one
                      point he could fall back and join Banks, or at one point actually go
                      north and crush Fort Pemberton and be back to getting regular
                      supplies. Both scenarios would have meant a longer war as his
                      noted brilliance shortened it.
                      carl
                      --- In civilwarwest@y..., "Michael Mason" <richthofen@b...> wrote:
                      > Grant was at his finest hour,but there was little or no margin
                      > of error in this campaign. The Baron
                      >
                      >
                      > On 13-Nov-01, brooksdsimpson@y... wrote:
                      > <html><body>
                      > <tt>
                      > --- In civilwarwest@y..., "Dave Smith" <dmsmith001@y...> wrote:<BR>
                      > <BR>
                      > > I've also thought that perhaps a Gordon Rhea-style approach - a
                      <BR>
                      > > series of relative standalone books, which encompasses the whole,
                      <BR>
                      > > might well work.  The problem is, I think, that the part people
                      <BR>
                      > want <BR>
                      > > to get to - post Bruinsburg - comes later in such a series.  <BR>
                      > Perhaps <BR>
                      > > they'd have to be written out of order.<BR>
                      > > <BR>
                      > > I'd be interested to hear Brooks's thoughts on this.<BR>
                      > <BR>
                      > I think that it is true that the lead-up to the April movements
                      would <BR>
                      > be slow going for some people -- I know that I found myself
                      impatient <BR>
                      > to get on to the crossing when I wrote my chapter on Vicksburg --
                      and <BR>
                      > that the period after May 22 is largely ignored (which is one reason
                      <BR>
                      > the Yazoo bender story gets so much play -- the assumption is that
                      <BR>
                      > nothing was going on, when in fact a great deal was going on).  <BR>
                      > <BR>
                      > There's probably room for two solid single-volume studies.  One
                      would <BR>
                      > be primarily a military study, not as detailed as that offered in
                      <BR>
                      > Ed's OR-bound narrative; I found the recent James Arnold book to be
                      a <BR>
                      > disappointment in that it simply reoffered what was offered before. 
                      <BR>
                      > The second would be a study that took a larger view of the campaign,
                      <BR>
                      > complete with its relation to politics and social change -- life
                      <BR>
                      > inside Vicksburg, what happened along the line of march, the <BR>
                      > induction and training of black soldiers, and so on. <BR>
                      > <BR>
                      > The military study might also shift the camera from Grant to <BR>
                      > Pemberton once in a while.  Too often the Confederate leaders are
                      <BR>
                      > treated as objects, awaiting Grant's next decision.  Put yourself in
                      <BR>
                      > Pemberton's place on April 15, 1863, and tell me what you do for the
                      <BR>
                      > next five weeks. <BR>
                      > <BR>
                      > Finally, I don't think people appreciate how this was truly Grant's
                      <BR>
                      > finest hour.  We give that notion lip service, but the fact is that
                      <BR>
                      > Grant was simply brilliant during the campaign.  Not flawless, but
                      <BR>
                      > brilliant -- with a good bit of guts thrown in.    <BR>
                      > <BR>
                      > </tt>
                      >
                      > <br>
                      >
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                    • Michael Mason
                      I doubt if thru the whole campaign,the thought of falling back ever once entered Grants mind,thats what sets Grant apart,do you think Grant ever once thought
                      Message 10 of 28 , Nov 14, 2001
                        I doubt if thru the whole campaign,the thought of falling
                        back ever once entered Grants mind,thats what sets Grant
                        apart,do you think Grant ever once thought of falling back
                        after The two days of Wilderness,The only time Grant
                        fell back was the very first attempt at Vicksburg,when
                        his supply line was cut,he never did that again,I think
                        thats when he felt he made a mistake by,falling back
                        and should have kept going and live off the land'
                        The Baron



                        On 14-Nov-01, carlw4514@... wrote:
                        <html><body>
                        <tt>
                        I do think, though, that Grant had an exit strategy, should things <BR>
                        not go so well; no one seems to know or say what that was, to my <BR>
                        knowledge. I have my own guesses - pure speculations - that at one <BR>
                        point he could fall back and join Banks, or at one point actually go <BR>
                        north and crush Fort Pemberton and be back to getting regular <BR>
                        supplies. Both scenarios would have meant a longer war as his <BR>
                        noted brilliance shortened it.<BR>
                        carl<BR>
                        --- In civilwarwest@y..., "Michael Mason" <richthofen@b...> wrote:<BR>
                        > Grant was at his finest hour,but there was little or no margin<BR>
                        > of error in this campaign.� The Baron<BR>
                        > <BR>
                        > <BR>
                        > On 13-Nov-01, brooksdsimpson@y... wrote:<BR>
                        > <html><body><BR>
                        > <tt><BR>
                        > --- In civilwarwest@y..., "Dave Smith" <dmsmith001@y...> wrote:<BR><BR>
                        > <BR><BR>
                        > > I've also thought that perhaps a Gordon Rhea-style approach - a <BR>
                        <BR><BR>
                        > > series of relative standalone books, which encompasses the whole, <BR>
                        <BR><BR>
                        > > might well work.� The problem is, I think, that the part people <BR>
                        <BR><BR>
                        > want <BR><BR>
                        > > to get to - post Bruinsburg - comes later in such a series.� <BR><BR>
                        > Perhaps <BR><BR>
                        > > they'd have to be written out of order.<BR><BR>
                        > > <BR><BR>
                        > > I'd be interested to hear Brooks's thoughts on this.<BR><BR>
                        > <BR><BR>
                        > I think that it is true that the lead-up to the April movements <BR>
                        would <BR><BR>
                        > be slow going for some people -- I know that I found myself <BR>
                        impatient <BR><BR>
                        > to get on to the crossing when I wrote my chapter on Vicksburg -- <BR>
                        and <BR><BR>
                        > that the period after May 22 is largely ignored (which is one reason <BR>
                        <BR><BR>
                        > the Yazoo bender story gets so much play -- the assumption is that <BR>
                        <BR><BR>
                        > nothing was going on, when in fact a great deal was going on).� <BR><BR>
                        > <BR><BR>
                        > There's probably room for two solid single-volume studies.� One <BR>
                        would <BR><BR>
                        > be primarily a military study, not as detailed as that offered in <BR>
                        <BR><BR>
                        > Ed's OR-bound narrative; I found the recent James Arnold book to be <BR>
                        a <BR><BR>
                        > disappointment in that it simply reoffered what was offered before.� <BR>
                        <BR><BR>
                        > The second would be a study that took a larger view of the campaign, <BR>
                        <BR><BR>
                        > complete with its relation to politics and social change -- life <BR>
                        <BR><BR>
                        > inside Vicksburg, what happened along the line of march, the <BR><BR>
                        > induction and training of black soldiers, and so on. <BR><BR>
                        > <BR><BR>
                        > The military study might also shift the camera from Grant to <BR><BR>
                        > Pemberton once in a while.� Too often the Confederate leaders are <BR>
                        <BR><BR>
                        > treated as objects, awaiting Grant's next decision.� Put yourself in <BR>
                        <BR><BR>
                        > Pemberton's place on April 15, 1863, and tell me what you do for the <BR>
                        <BR><BR>
                        > next five weeks. <BR><BR>
                        > <BR><BR>
                        > Finally, I don't think people appreciate how this was truly Grant's <BR>
                        <BR><BR>
                        > finest hour.� We give that notion lip service, but the fact is that <BR>
                        <BR><BR>
                        > Grant was simply brilliant during the campaign.� Not flawless, but <BR>
                        <BR><BR>
                        > brilliant -- with a good bit of guts thrown in.��� <BR><BR>
                        > <BR><BR>
                        > </tt><BR>
                        > <BR>
                        > <br><BR>
                        > <BR>
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                      • Bob Huddleston
                        I also think that the Holly Springs debacle, and the ease with which Grant was able to live off the Mississippi land provided the proof -- and the confidence
                        Message 11 of 28 , Nov 14, 2001
                          I also think that the Holly Springs debacle, and the ease with which Grant
                          was able to live off the Mississippi land provided the proof -- and the
                          confidence -- to forget bases and strike out overland.

                          One of the secrets of USG was that he was always learning and always willing
                          to try something new.

                          Take care,

                          Bob

                          Judy and Bob Huddleston
                          10643 Sperry Street
                          Northglenn, CO 80234-3612
                          303.451.6276 Adco@...



                          I doubt if thru the whole campaign,the thought of falling
                          back ever once entered Grants mind,thats what sets Grant apart,do you think
                          Grant ever once thought of falling back after The two days of
                          Wilderness,The only time Grant fell back was the very first attempt at
                          Vicksburg,when his supply line was cut,he never did that again,I think thats
                          when he felt he made a mistake by,falling back and should have kept going
                          and live off the land' The Baron
                        • Bob Huddleston
                          Which is why VB is still an object of study by the Military. Grabau s book started as a Second Army Commander s Staff Ride in 1989. Take care, Bob Judy and Bob
                          Message 12 of 28 , Nov 14, 2001
                            Which is why VB is still an object of study by the Military.

                            Grabau's book started as a Second Army Commander's Staff Ride in 1989.

                            Take care,

                            Bob

                            Judy and Bob Huddleston
                            10643 Sperry Street
                            Northglenn, CO 80234-3612
                            303.451.6276 Adco@...

                            SNIP

                            Finally, I don't think people appreciate how this was truly Grant's
                            finest hour. We give that notion lip service, but the fact is that
                            Grant was simply brilliant during the campaign. Not flawless, but
                            brilliant -- with a good bit of guts thrown in.
                          • Bob Huddleston
                            I would also suggest that Grierson s Raid was the finest strategic cavalry raid of the Civil War, overshadowing anything that either Forrest or Stuart did in
                            Message 13 of 28 , Nov 14, 2001
                              I would also suggest that Grierson's Raid was the finest strategic cavalry
                              raid of the Civil War, overshadowing anything that either Forrest or Stuart
                              did in its impact on the course of the war.

                              One of the hard parts of doing a campaign -- or a battle -- is keeping
                              everything in perspective, things happening at the same time, often
                              scattered apart by miles. How many think of Morgan's Raid into Ohio as being
                              part of the Gettysburg Campaign?

                              Take care,

                              Bob

                              Judy and Bob Huddleston
                              10643 Sperry Street
                              Northglenn, CO 80234-3612
                              303.451.6276 Adco@...

                              SNIP
                              Finally, I don't think people appreciate how this was truly Grant's
                              finest hour. We give that notion lip service, but the fact is that
                              Grant was simply brilliant during the campaign. Not flawless, but
                              brilliant -- with a good bit of guts thrown in.
                            • M. E. Heatherington
                              Yessss!!!! Not the least aspect of Grant s brilliance in the Vbg campaign was his ordering of what came to be called Grierson s Raid -- and the selection of
                              Message 14 of 28 , Nov 14, 2001
                                Yessss!!!!

                                Not the least aspect of Grant's brilliance in the Vbg campaign was his
                                ordering of what came to be called Grierson's Raid -- and the selection of
                                Grierson to lead it. Anyone interested in more details on this magnificent
                                two-week-long foray through Mississippi and Louisiana should read D.
                                Alexander Brown's definitive, and thoroughly enjoyable, GRIERSON'S RAID.

                                Regards from your Union-cavalry-in-the-West & all-'round Grierson person,
                                Madelon

                                PS: From Robert Novak's column of 11/14/2001, headlined "The cavalry rides
                                again": "Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld . . . revealed [at] a recent
                                private . . . dinner that . . . . . he had flown over the rugged terrain
                                [in Afghanistan] . . . , where U.S. [special operations] troops were in
                                combat -- riding horses."



                                >From: "Bob Huddleston" <adco12@...>
                                >Reply-To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                >To: <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
                                >Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Re: Understanding Vicksburg
                                >Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 11:17:10 -0700
                                >
                                >I would also suggest that Grierson's Raid was the finest strategic cavalry
                                >raid of the Civil War, overshadowing anything that either Forrest or Stuart
                                >did in its impact on the course of the war.
                                >
                                >One of the hard parts of doing a campaign -- or a battle -- is keeping
                                >everything in perspective, things happening at the same time, often
                                >scattered apart by miles. How many think of Morgan's Raid into Ohio as
                                >being
                                >part of the Gettysburg Campaign?
                                >
                                >Take care,
                                >
                                >Bob

                                _________________________________________________________________
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                              • Dave Smith
                                ... Carl, With all due respect, Fort Pemberton was not going to work - especially a movement north through hostile country - no supply line, no way to
                                Message 15 of 28 , Nov 15, 2001
                                  --- In civilwarwest@y..., carlw4514@y... wrote:
                                  > I do think, though, that Grant had an exit strategy, should things
                                  > not go so well; no one seems to know or say what that was, to my
                                  > knowledge. I have my own guesses - pure speculations - that at one
                                  > point he could fall back and join Banks, or at one point actually
                                  > go
                                  > north and crush Fort Pemberton and be back to getting regular
                                  > supplies. Both scenarios would have meant a longer war as his
                                  > noted brilliance shortened it.

                                  Carl,

                                  With all due respect, Fort Pemberton was not going to work -
                                  especially a movement north through hostile country - no supply line,
                                  no way to replenish ammunition, and no way to use the rail lines. He
                                  would have been dead meat.

                                  Fall back and join Banks? And become subordinate to Banks? I doubt
                                  that, too. A portion of the movement on Jackson was simply to avoid
                                  doing that.

                                  Dave

                                  Dave Smith
                                  Villa Hills, KY
                                • Thomas A Hardy
                                  Bob, et al, An interesting note from my Masters Degree studies is that Grant learned how to do this from Winfield Scott in Mexico. Scott cut himself off from
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Nov 15, 2001
                                    Bob, et al,

                                    An interesting note from my Masters Degree studies is that Grant learned
                                    how to do this from Winfield Scott in Mexico. Scott cut himself off from
                                    the coast and Vera Cruz, then advanced and captured Mexico City. It was
                                    a very near run thing.

                                    Grant served as a quartermaster and saw how the army supplied itself. He
                                    also stuck his nose into the combat and learned how to operate on a
                                    battlefield.

                                    Tom Hardy
                                    Kansas City


                                    On Wed, 14 Nov 2001 11:17:10 -0700 "Bob Huddleston"
                                    <adco12@...> writes:
                                    > I also think that the Holly Springs debacle, and the ease with which
                                    > Grant
                                    > was able to live off the Mississippi land provided the proof -- and
                                    > the
                                    > confidence -- to forget bases and strike out overland.
                                    >
                                    > One of the secrets of USG was that he was always learning and always
                                    > willing
                                    > to try something new.
                                    >
                                    > Take care,
                                    >
                                    > Bob
                                    >
                                    > Judy and Bob Huddleston
                                    > 10643 Sperry Street
                                    > Northglenn, CO 80234-3612
                                    > 303.451.6276 Adco@...
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > I doubt if thru the whole campaign,the thought of falling
                                    > back ever once entered Grants mind,thats what sets Grant apart,do
                                    > you think
                                    > Grant ever once thought of falling back after The two days of
                                    > Wilderness,The only time Grant fell back was the very first attempt
                                    > at
                                    > Vicksburg,when his supply line was cut,he never did that again,I
                                    > think thats
                                    > when he felt he made a mistake by,falling back and should have kept
                                    > going
                                    > and live off the land' The Baron
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
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                                  • carlw4514@yahoo.com
                                    I guess I knew that I was going to get clobbered LOL. Since it s pure speculation I can t really defend myself except to say that in military matters it seems
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Nov 16, 2001
                                      I guess I knew that I was going to get clobbered LOL. Since it's pure
                                      speculation I can't really defend myself except to say that in
                                      military matters it seems that there are certain things that just
                                      aren't overlooked by professionals. One always has reserves. One does
                                      not get himself into a situation where retreat is impossible, even if
                                      fully confident that retreat is not in the cards. One does
                                      not try to "live off the land" indefinitely. Certainly "living off the
                                      land" gives the appearance that one has thrown caution to the winds,
                                      but I sincerely doubt that this was the case with Grant. There is a
                                      point at which "living off the land" is no longer possible; he simply
                                      couldn't allow it to happen that he would get stalemated east of the
                                      Big Black. Subordinate to Banks, say, beats being out of ammo and
                                      starving; Porter had warned him that the transports were not making
                                      the trip back up the Mississippi; would he have blown this off as "who
                                      cares?" This bothering anybody else?

                                      --- In civilwarwest@y..., "Dave Smith" <dmsmith001@y...> wrote:
                                      > --- In civilwarwest@y..., carlw4514@y... wrote:
                                      > > I do think, though, that Grant had an exit strategy, should things
                                      > > not go so well; no one seems to know or say what that was, to my
                                      > > knowledge. I have my own guesses - pure speculations - that at one
                                      > > point he could fall back and join Banks, or at one point actually
                                      > > go
                                      > > north and crush Fort Pemberton and be back to getting regular
                                      > > supplies. Both scenarios would have meant a longer war as his
                                      > > noted brilliance shortened it.
                                      >
                                      > Carl,
                                      >
                                      > With all due respect, Fort Pemberton was not going to work -
                                      > especially a movement north through hostile country - no supply
                                      line,
                                      > no way to replenish ammunition, and no way to use the rail lines.
                                      He
                                      > would have been dead meat.
                                      >
                                      > Fall back and join Banks? And become subordinate to Banks? I doubt
                                      > that, too. A portion of the movement on Jackson was simply to avoid
                                      > doing that.
                                      >
                                      > Dave
                                      >
                                      > Dave Smith
                                      > Villa Hills, KY
                                    • Michael Mason
                                      Who cares ,isn t what Grant felt.Grant s role model,Zach Taylor always got by with what he had,Grant was doing the same.But had anything gone wrong,this
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Nov 16, 2001
                                        "Who cares",isn't what Grant felt.Grant's role model,Zach
                                        Taylor always got by with what he had,Grant was doing the same.But had anything gone wrong,this campaign could
                                        have been a disaster.By the way 137yrs ago.The Western
                                        Army headed east,on Sherman's March to the Sea.
                                        The Baron




                                        On 16-Nov-01, carlw4514@... wrote:
                                        <html><body>
                                        <tt>
                                        I guess I knew that I was going to get clobbered LOL. Since it's pure <BR>
                                        speculation I can't really defend myself except to say that in <BR>
                                        military matters it seems that there are certain things that just <BR>
                                        aren't overlooked by professionals. One always has reserves. One does <BR>
                                        not get himself into a situation where retreat is impossible, even if <BR>
                                        fully confident that retreat is not in the cards. One does <BR>
                                        not try to "live off the land" indefinitely. Certainly "living off the <BR>
                                        land" gives the appearance that one has thrown caution to the winds, <BR>
                                        but I sincerely doubt that this was the case with Grant. There is a <BR>
                                        point at which "living off the land" is no longer possible; he simply <BR>
                                        couldn't allow it to happen that he would get stalemated east of the <BR>
                                        Big Black. Subordinate to Banks, say, beats being out of ammo and <BR>
                                        starving; Porter had warned him that the transports were not making <BR>
                                        the trip back up the Mississippi; would he have blown this off as "who <BR>
                                        cares?" This bothering anybody else?<BR>
                                        <BR>
                                        --- In civilwarwest@y..., "Dave Smith" <dmsmith001@y...> wrote:<BR>
                                        > --- In civilwarwest@y..., carlw4514@y... wrote:<BR>
                                        > > I do think, though, that Grant had an exit strategy, should things <BR>
                                        > > not go so well; no one seems to know or say what that was, to my <BR>
                                        > > knowledge. I have my own guesses - pure speculations - that at one <BR>
                                        > > point he could fall back and join Banks, or at one point actually <BR>
                                        > > go <BR>
                                        > > north and crush Fort Pemberton and be back to getting regular <BR>
                                        > > supplies. Both scenarios would have meant a longer war as his <BR>
                                        > > noted brilliance shortened it.<BR>
                                        > <BR>
                                        > Carl,<BR>
                                        > <BR>
                                        > With all due respect, Fort Pemberton was not going to work - <BR>
                                        > especially a movement north through hostile country - no supply <BR>
                                        line, <BR>
                                        > no way to replenish ammunition, and no way to use the rail lines.� <BR>
                                        He <BR>
                                        > would have been dead meat.<BR>
                                        > <BR>
                                        > Fall back and join Banks?� And become subordinate to Banks?� I doubt <BR>
                                        > that, too.� A portion of the movement on Jackson was simply to avoid <BR>
                                        > doing that.<BR>
                                        > <BR>
                                        > Dave<BR>
                                        > <BR>
                                        > Dave Smith<BR>
                                        > Villa Hills, KY<BR>
                                        <BR>
                                        </tt>

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                                      • Dave Smith
                                        ... Well, I can only hope there wasn t a sense of clobbering going on in my response . . . :-) ... This is an interesting point. Grant was indeed living
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Nov 21, 2001
                                          --- In civilwarwest@y..., carlw4514@y... wrote:
                                          > I guess I knew that I was going to get clobbered LOL.

                                          Well, I can only hope there wasn't a sense of "clobbering" going on
                                          in my response . . . :-)


                                          > Since it's
                                          > pure speculation I can't really defend myself except to say that in
                                          > military matters it seems that there are certain things that just
                                          > aren't overlooked by professionals. One always has reserves. One
                                          > does not get himself into a situation where retreat is impossible,
                                          > even if fully confident that retreat is not in the cards. One does
                                          > not try to "live off the land" indefinitely. Certainly "living off
                                          > the land" gives the appearance that one has thrown caution to the
                                          > winds, but I sincerely doubt that this was the case with Grant.

                                          This is an interesting point. Grant was indeed "living off the
                                          land," to a fairly large degree. But he wasn't living that way,
                                          exclusively; he had cut and curderoyed (sp?) roads through Louisiana
                                          in order to facilitate the movement of supplies down the western bank
                                          of the Mississippi. Those transport vessels were unloading at Grand
                                          Gulf while the campaign was unfolding.

                                          It was a slow, laborious process - but it was a process.

                                          When Pemberton attempted his ill-fated move to Dillon's Plantation to
                                          attack Blair's division, it was to attempt to cut that very supply
                                          line. Not that it would have mattered much, because it wasn't a
                                          supply line in the more traditional sense . . .

                                          > There is a
                                          > point at which "living off the land" is no longer possible; he
                                          > simply couldn't allow it to happen that he would get stalemated
                                          > east of the Big Black.

                                          I realize what you're saying, and agree that there is a point where
                                          such "living off the land" becomes pointless. Grant had that problem
                                          rapidly approaching him in mid-May, 1863. That things nicely
                                          resolved themselves by Confederate stumbling and bumbling at Champion
                                          Hill and Big Black Bridge, and opened the Big Black River to him,
                                          made the issue moot. But I think Grant was closer to having to move
                                          back towards his base at Grand Gulf, or hastily attack Pemberton,
                                          then we often think, given the known results.

                                          > Subordinate to Banks, say, beats being out of ammo and
                                          > starving; Porter had warned him that the transports were not making
                                          > the trip back up the Mississippi; would he have blown this off
                                          > as "who cares?" This bothering anybody else?

                                          I suspect (and of course I may be wrong) that much of the inland move
                                          by Grant was more a response to the recgonition that he needed to do
                                          something about Halleck and Banks, and the options were few and
                                          undesired. So he improvised, realizing that some good could come out
                                          of such a move. He rolled the dice, and came up sevens - repeatedly.

                                          Dave

                                          Dave Smith
                                          Villa Hills, KY
                                        • carlw4514@yahoo.com
                                          Dave, you are the man when it comes to Vicksburg and you have proved it again; you get the lion s share of credit for getting me so interested in Vicksburg.
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Nov 24, 2001
                                            Dave, you are "the man" when it comes to Vicksburg and you have proved
                                            it again; you get the lion's share of credit for getting me so
                                            interested in Vicksburg. You are undoubtedly correct that a stymied
                                            Grant could have fallen back and functioned at Grand Gulf, not that
                                            there was any real doubt in Grant's mind that he was going to pull
                                            this thing off.
                                            I wonder what sort of situation the Federals would have had, had
                                            they moved back to Grand Gulf. Would it have been similar to
                                            Chattanooga before the "cracker line" was opened? I have to assume
                                            that 1) Porter's warning had some meaning 2) the famous 7 attempts to
                                            crack the Vicksburg nut outlined by Foote and others showed that the
                                            situation of having "some" kind of supply situation through the
                                            Louisiana side was not considered the answer; Grant's last move before
                                            this one was to try another failed canal (IIRC). There must have been
                                            a reason to try these canals etc. Am I all wet?
                                            Carl
                                            --- In civilwarwest@y..., "Dave Smith" <dmsmith001@y...> wrote:
                                            [snips]

                                            > This is an interesting point. Grant was indeed "living off the
                                            > land," to a fairly large degree. But he wasn't living that way,
                                            > exclusively; he had cut and curderoyed (sp?) roads through Louisiana
                                            > in order to facilitate the movement of supplies down the western
                                            bank
                                            > of the Mississippi. Those transport vessels were unloading at Grand
                                            > Gulf while the campaign was unfolding.
                                            >
                                            > It was a slow, laborious process - but it was a process.
                                            >
                                            > When Pemberton attempted his ill-fated move to Dillon's Plantation
                                            to
                                            > attack Blair's division, it was to attempt to cut that very supply
                                            > line. Not that it would have mattered much, because it wasn't a
                                            > supply line in the more traditional sense . . . [...] But I think
                                            Grant was closer to having to move
                                            > back towards his base at Grand Gulf, or hastily attack Pemberton,
                                            > then we often think, given the known results.
                                          • Dave Smith
                                            ... Here s the situation vis-a-vis Grand Gulf. The key to the Confederate defense of Vicksburg was the Big Black River, period. As long as the Union forces
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Nov 26, 2001
                                              --- In civilwarwest@y..., carlw4514@y... wrote:
                                              > Dave, you are "the man" when it comes to Vicksburg and you have
                                              > proved
                                              > it again; you get the lion's share of credit for getting me so
                                              > interested in Vicksburg. You are undoubtedly correct that a stymied
                                              > Grant could have fallen back and functioned at Grand Gulf, not that
                                              > there was any real doubt in Grant's mind that he was going to pull
                                              > this thing off.

                                              Here's the situation vis-a-vis Grand Gulf.

                                              The key to the Confederate defense of Vicksburg was the Big Black
                                              River, period. As long as the Union forces were south and east of
                                              the Big Black River, the Confederate defenses at Haine's Bluff
                                              (Drumgould / Snyder's Bluffs) remain intact, and the potential Yazoo
                                              supply base remains denied to Grant.

                                              And as long as supplies for a 55,000-man army have to be carted down
                                              the western bank of the Mississippi, it's a recipe for disaster.
                                              Remember Milliken's Bend? Disrupt those supplies by Confederates
                                              operating in Louisiana, and Grant's in trouble.

                                              Did Grant ever doubt? I don't know, but I know he had some doubts
                                              vis-a-vis Johnston, once the siege had started.

                                              > I wonder what sort of situation the Federals would have had,
                                              > had
                                              > they moved back to Grand Gulf. Would it have been similar to
                                              > Chattanooga before the "cracker line" was opened?

                                              It would have been much worse, IMO. It may well could have spelled
                                              the end of Grant's command, as well.

                                              > I have to assume
                                              > that 1) Porter's warning had some meaning 2) the famous 7 attempts
                                              > to crack the Vicksburg nut outlined by Foote and others showed that
                                              > the situation of having "some" kind of supply situation through the
                                              > Louisiana side was not considered the answer; Grant's last move
                                              > before this one was to try another failed canal (IIRC). There must
                                              > have been a reason to try these canals etc. Am I all wet?

                                              Grant knew he had to try some means to get to Vicksburg - sitting
                                              still with an army would smack of McClellanism. And if Gtant didn't
                                              know of the relationship between Lincoln and McClellan, he doubtless
                                              understood the general aspects of it.

                                              Dang - don't check in for a Holiday weekend, and all heck breaks
                                              loose.

                                              Dave

                                              Dave Smith
                                              Villa Hills, KY
                                            • Aurelie1999@aol.com
                                              In a message dated 11/26/01 2:25:39 PM, dmsmith001@yahoo.com writes:
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Nov 26, 2001
                                                In a message dated 11/26/01 2:25:39 PM, dmsmith001@... writes:

                                                << Grant knew he had to try some means to get to Vicksburg - sitting
                                                still with an army would smack of McClellanism. >>

                                                Grant was very much aware of this and explained it to Sherman who opposed the
                                                idea completely. Gettysburg had not yet been won, the AoP was a mess and the
                                                public was restless. Grant was well apprised through men such as Washbourne
                                                and John Sherman, Charles Dana and Sylvanus Cadwallader of what was happening
                                                and the goings on in Washington. Grant may have been taciturn and
                                                undemonstrative, but he was a keen observer of men and events. Sherman urged
                                                him to return to Memphis to restructure his campaign and while Grant was
                                                certain that it was the "book" thing to do, he was equally certain that any
                                                backward movement no matter what the reason would be perceived as retreat or
                                                even worse defeat. He felt that the administration was in trouble and that
                                                it needed a win to stay afloat. He decided to wage his career on the outcome.

                                                Connie
                                              • Dave Smith
                                                Very well put. I think we often lose sight on exactly how great Grant s gamble really was. DAve ... sitting ... opposed the ... mess and the ... Washbourne
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Nov 26, 2001
                                                  Very well put. I think we often lose sight on exactly how great
                                                  Grant's gamble really was.

                                                  DAve

                                                  --- In civilwarwest@y..., Aurelie1999@a... wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > In a message dated 11/26/01 2:25:39 PM, dmsmith001@y... writes:
                                                  >
                                                  > << Grant knew he had to try some means to get to Vicksburg -
                                                  sitting
                                                  > still with an army would smack of McClellanism. >>
                                                  >
                                                  > Grant was very much aware of this and explained it to Sherman who
                                                  opposed the
                                                  > idea completely. Gettysburg had not yet been won, the AoP was a
                                                  mess and the
                                                  > public was restless. Grant was well apprised through men such as
                                                  Washbourne
                                                  > and John Sherman, Charles Dana and Sylvanus Cadwallader of what was
                                                  happening
                                                  > and the goings on in Washington. Grant may have been taciturn and
                                                  > undemonstrative, but he was a keen observer of men and events.
                                                  Sherman urged
                                                  > him to return to Memphis to restructure his campaign and while
                                                  Grant was
                                                  > certain that it was the "book" thing to do, he was equally certain
                                                  that any
                                                  > backward movement no matter what the reason would be perceived as
                                                  retreat or
                                                  > even worse defeat. He felt that the administration was in trouble
                                                  and that
                                                  > it needed a win to stay afloat. He decided to wage his career on
                                                  the outcome.
                                                  >
                                                  > Connie
                                                • Michael Mason
                                                  McClellanism isn t that something like acute constipation?? The Baron On 26-Nov-01, Dave Smith wrote: ...
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Nov 26, 2001
                                                    "McClellanism" isn't that something like acute constipation??
                                                    The Baron


                                                    On 26-Nov-01, Dave Smith <dmsmith001@...> wrote:
                                                    <html><body>
                                                    <tt>
                                                    --- In civilwarwest@y..., carlw4514@y... wrote:<BR>
                                                    > Dave, you are "the man" when it comes to Vicksburg and you have <BR>
                                                    > proved <BR>
                                                    > it again; you get the lion's share of credit for getting me so <BR>
                                                    > interested in Vicksburg. You are undoubtedly correct that a stymied <BR>
                                                    > Grant could have fallen back and functioned at Grand Gulf, not that <BR>
                                                    > there was any real doubt in Grant's mind that he was going to pull <BR>
                                                    > this thing off. <BR>
                                                    <BR>
                                                    Here's the situation vis-a-vis Grand Gulf.� <BR>
                                                    <BR>
                                                    The key to the Confederate defense of Vicksburg was the Big Black <BR>
                                                    River, period.� As long as the Union forces were south and east of <BR>
                                                    the Big Black River, the Confederate defenses at Haine's Bluff <BR>
                                                    (Drumgould / Snyder's Bluffs) remain intact, and the potential Yazoo <BR>
                                                    supply base remains denied to Grant.<BR>
                                                    <BR>
                                                    And as long as supplies for a 55,000-man army have to be carted down <BR>
                                                    the western bank of the Mississippi, it's a recipe for disaster.� <BR>
                                                    Remember Milliken's Bend?� Disrupt those supplies by Confederates <BR>
                                                    operating in Louisiana, and Grant's in trouble.<BR>
                                                    <BR>
                                                    Did Grant ever doubt?� I don't know, but I know he had some doubts <BR>
                                                    vis-a-vis Johnston, once the siege had started.<BR>
                                                    <BR>
                                                    >������ I wonder what sort of situation the Federals would have had, <BR>
                                                    > had <BR>
                                                    > they moved back to Grand Gulf. Would it have been similar to <BR>
                                                    > Chattanooga before the "cracker line" was opened? <BR>
                                                    <BR>
                                                    It would have been much worse, IMO.� It may well could have spelled <BR>
                                                    the end of Grant's command, as well.<BR>
                                                    <BR>
                                                    > I have to assume <BR>
                                                    > that 1) Porter's warning had some meaning 2) the famous 7 attempts <BR>
                                                    > to crack the Vicksburg nut outlined by Foote and others showed that <BR>
                                                    > the situation of having "some" kind of supply situation through the <BR>
                                                    > Louisiana side was not considered the answer; Grant's last move <BR>
                                                    > before this one was to try another failed canal (IIRC). There must <BR>
                                                    > have been a reason to try these canals etc. Am I all wet?<BR>
                                                    <BR>
                                                    Grant knew he had to try some means to get to Vicksburg - sitting <BR>
                                                    still with an army would smack of McClellanism.� And if Gtant didn't <BR>
                                                    know of the relationship between Lincoln and McClellan, he doubtless <BR>
                                                    understood the general aspects of it.<BR>
                                                    <BR>
                                                    Dang - don't check in for a Holiday weekend, and all heck breaks <BR>
                                                    loose.<BR>
                                                    <BR>
                                                    Dave<BR>
                                                    <BR>
                                                    Dave Smith<BR>
                                                    Villa Hills, KY<BR>
                                                    <BR>
                                                    </tt>



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                                                  • carlw4514@yahoo.com
                                                    well, Dave, that s something, I thought you would say it wouldn t be as bad as Chatanooga pre-cracker line. It s really something to sit here and think that
                                                    Message 25 of 28 , Nov 26, 2001
                                                      well, Dave, that's something, I thought you would say it wouldn't be
                                                      as bad as Chatanooga pre-cracker line. It's really something to sit
                                                      here and think that the whole campaign could have turned into some
                                                      kind of quagmire; the success of it was essential to Union war aims
                                                      IMHO.
                                                      carl

                                                      --- In civilwarwest@y..., "Dave Smith" <dmsmith001@y...> wrote:
                                                      [Would it have been similar to Chattanooga before the "cracker line"
                                                      was opened? ]

                                                      > It would have been much worse, IMO. It may well could have spelled
                                                      > the end of Grant's command, as well.
                                                    • Michael Mason
                                                      It could have ended up like Napolean in Moscow,without the snow! Longest chance taken in the war! The Baron On 26-Nov-01, carlw4514@yahoo.com wrote:
                                                      Message 26 of 28 , Nov 26, 2001
                                                        It could have ended up like Napolean in Moscow,without the snow! Longest chance taken in the war!
                                                        The Baron

                                                        On 26-Nov-01, carlw4514@... wrote:
                                                        <html><body>
                                                        <tt>
                                                        well, Dave, that's something, I thought you would say it wouldn't be <BR>
                                                        as bad as Chatanooga pre-cracker line. It's really something to sit <BR>
                                                        here and think that the whole campaign could have turned into some <BR>
                                                        kind of quagmire; the success of it was essential to Union war aims <BR>
                                                        IMHO.<BR>
                                                        carl<BR>
                                                        <BR>
                                                        --- In civilwarwest@y..., "Dave Smith" <dmsmith001@y...> wrote:<BR>
                                                        [Would it have been similar to Chattanooga before the "cracker line" <BR>
                                                        was opened? ]<BR>
                                                        <BR>
                                                        > It would have been much worse, IMO.� It may well could have spelled <BR>
                                                        > the end of Grant's command, as well.<BR>
                                                        <BR>
                                                        <BR>
                                                        </tt>

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                                                      • Dave Smith
                                                        ... Indeed. Of course it s all speculation, since it didn t happen, but one wonders what the course of events would have been had Grant found himself at Grand
                                                        Message 27 of 28 , Nov 26, 2001
                                                          --- In civilwarwest@y..., carlw4514@y... wrote:
                                                          > well, Dave, that's something, I thought you would say it wouldn't
                                                          > be
                                                          > as bad as Chatanooga pre-cracker line. It's really something to sit
                                                          > here and think that the whole campaign could have turned into some
                                                          > kind of quagmire; the success of it was essential to Union war aims
                                                          > IMHO.

                                                          Indeed. Of course it's all speculation, since it didn't happen, but
                                                          one wonders what the course of events would have been had Grant found
                                                          himself at Grand Gulf, on the wrong side of the Big Black River, on
                                                          May 21.

                                                          Brooks?

                                                          Dave
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