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RE: [civilwarwest] Some Western Theater Trivia

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  • Bob Huddleston
    John Brown. But Vallandigham s pro-Southern, pro-Virginia and pro-slavery views were well known and his racists speeches had already marked him as a man that
    Message 1 of 22 , Oct 3, 2001
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      John Brown.

      But Vallandigham's pro-Southern, pro-Virginia and pro-slavery views were
      well known and his racists speeches had already marked him as a man that
      anti-slavery men, to say nothing of abolitionists, would oppose.

      BTW, the stupidest thing Burnside ever did was not the Battle of
      Fredericksburg, but ordering the arrest of Vallandigham.

      And one of the many brilliant politician strokes of Abraham Lincoln was
      the way he deftly handled Vallandigham, supporting Burnside while
      getting rid of Val, and dumping him on Jeff Davis.

      Take care,

      Bob

      Judy and Bob Huddleston
      10643 Sperry Street
      Northglenn, CO 80234-3612
      303.451.6276 Adco@...

      6. In a chance occurrence on his way home from Washington D.C.
      after the 1859 session of Congress, Clement Vallandigham stopped to
      interview a particular individual in order to try to link him to
      Vallandigham's political opponents. The interview was copied by a
      reporter and published in the New York Herald. This gave
      Vallandigham national publicity and helped establish him as a
      proponent of anti-abolition and anti-New England viewpoints. Who was
      the person he interviewed?
    • Dave Smith
      ... Well, I obviously know - I ll leave it to the members of this group to see if they know the story. Dave
      Message 2 of 22 , Oct 3, 2001
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        --- In civilwarwest@y..., "Bob Huddleston" <adco12@m...> wrote:
        > I'll add another question: how did Vallandigham die?

        Well, I obviously know - I'll leave it to the members of this group
        to see if they know the story.

        Dave
      • Dave Smith
        ... Promoted by Wright? Wright had no control over Buell s army, although granted, things were very confused department-wise once Buell returned to Kentucky,
        Message 3 of 22 , Oct 3, 2001
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          --- In civilwarwest@y..., "Bob Huddleston" <adco12@m...> wrote:
          > Gilbert was "promoted" by Horatio Wright. Unfortunately generals do
          > not
          > the option of promoting people -- that is a prerogative of the
          > President, by and with the consent of the Senate.

          Promoted by Wright? Wright had no control over Buell's army,
          although granted, things were very confused department-wise once
          Buell returned to Kentucky, but I"d not heard that Wright himself
          promoted Gilbert.
          >
          > Gilbert's promotion was never submitted to the Senate by the
          President
          > and he reverted back to his previous rank.
          >
          > He commanded the Third Corps at Perryville.

          Correct.

          Dave

          Dave Smith
          Villa Hills, KY
        • Dave Smith
          ... Correct again. Dave
          Message 4 of 22 , Oct 3, 2001
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            --- In civilwarwest@y..., "Bob Huddleston" <adco12@m...> wrote:
            > George Pendleton.

            Correct again.

            Dave
          • Dave Smith
            ... Correct again. ... ? pose. ... One of the intersting things about Vallandigham, however, was his staunch dedication to the US Constitution, which meant, as
            Message 5 of 22 , Oct 3, 2001
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              --- In civilwarwest@y..., "Bob Huddleston" <adco12@m...> wrote:
              > John Brown.

              Correct again.
              >
              > But Vallandigham's pro-Southern, pro-Virginia and pro-slavery views
              > were well known and his racists speeches had already marked him as
              > a man that anti-slavery men, to say nothing of abolitionists, would
              ? pose.
              >
              > BTW, the stupidest thing Burnside ever did was not the Battle of
              > Fredericksburg, but ordering the arrest of Vallandigham.
              >
              > And one of the many brilliant politician strokes of Abraham Lincoln
              > the way he deftly handled Vallandigham, supporting Burnside while
              > getting rid of Val, and dumping him on Jeff Davis.

              One of the intersting things about Vallandigham, however, was his
              staunch dedication to the US Constitution, which meant, as far as he
              was personally concerned, that disagreements about how to handle
              secession had to be handled via the ballot box.

              Which meant, as far as Congressman Vallandigham was concerned, that
              appropriations for the prosecution of the war had to be approved, in
              order to support the soldiers in the army. At such time, as the
              American people (he hoped) would approve, the soldiers would be
              pulled from a war that he believed were a waste of "national
              treasure" - both of men and money.

              Dave

              Dave Smith
              Villa Hills, KY
            • Bob Huddleston
              Quite true -- as long as one accepts Val s interpretation of the Constitution. Of course the American people *had* spoken through the Ballot Box in 1860 and
              Message 6 of 22 , Oct 3, 2001
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                Quite true -- as long as one accepts Val's interpretation of the
                Constitution.

                Of course the American people *had* spoken through the Ballot Box in
                1860 and some of the citizens of the some of the states rejected *that*
                solution. And Vallandigham did not provide an answer to what to do when
                a bunch of the people rejected the Ballot Box.

                Of course Congress, the president and the voters consistently rejected
                Vallandigham's argument throughout the war.

                We must also never forget the virulent racism of Vallandigham: reading
                his congressional speeches is sickening to us today and was out of the
                mainstream (at least in the free states) in the 1860s.

                Take care,

                Bob

                Judy and Bob Huddleston
                10643 Sperry Street
                Northglenn, CO 80234-3612
                303.451.6276 Adco@...

                SNIP
                One of the intersting things about Vallandigham, however, was his
                staunch dedication to the US Constitution, which meant, as far as he
                was personally concerned, that disagreements about how to handle
                secession had to be handled via the ballot box.

                Which meant, as far as Congressman Vallandigham was concerned, that
                appropriations for the prosecution of the war had to be approved, in
                order to support the soldiers in the army. At such time, as the
                American people (he hoped) would approve, the soldiers would be
                pulled from a war that he believed were a waste of "national
                treasure" - both of men and money.

                Dave

                Dave Smith
                Villa Hills, KY
              • Bob Huddleston
                I though it was Buell also, but figured I ought to look it up. According to Hafendorfer s history of Perryville, it was Wright. Take care, Bob Judy and Bob
                Message 7 of 22 , Oct 3, 2001
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                  I though it was Buell also, but figured I ought to look it up. According
                  to Hafendorfer's history of Perryville, it was Wright.

                  Take care,

                  Bob

                  Judy and Bob Huddleston
                  10643 Sperry Street
                  Northglenn, CO 80234-3612
                  303.451.6276 Adco@...

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Dave Smith [mailto:dmsmith001@...]
                  Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 2:14 PM
                  To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Question 5: Some Western Theater Trivia


                  --- In civilwarwest@y..., "Bob Huddleston" <adco12@m...> wrote:
                  > Gilbert was "promoted" by Horatio Wright. Unfortunately generals do
                  > not
                  > the option of promoting people -- that is a prerogative of the
                  > President, by and with the consent of the Senate.

                  Promoted by Wright? Wright had no control over Buell's army,
                  although granted, things were very confused department-wise once
                  Buell returned to Kentucky, but I"d not heard that Wright himself
                  promoted Gilbert.
                  >
                  > Gilbert's promotion was never submitted to the Senate by the
                  President
                  > and he reverted back to his previous rank.
                  >
                  > He commanded the Third Corps at Perryville.

                  Correct.

                  Dave

                  Dave Smith
                  Villa Hills, KY





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                • Michael Mason
                  Bob I have to disagree with the strongest possible terms, The worse thing Burnside did was Fredricksberg! I don t know how Vallangham died but I hope its
                  Message 8 of 22 , Oct 3, 2001
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                    Bob I have to disagree with the strongest possible terms,
                    The worse thing Burnside did was Fredricksberg!
                    I don't know how Vallangham died but I hope its because
                    someone shoved a copperhead up(------_
                    The Baron




                    On 3-Oct-01, Bob Huddleston <adco12@...> wrote:
                    John Brown.

                    But Vallandigham's pro-Southern, pro-Virginia and pro-slavery views were
                    well known and his racists speeches had already marked him as a man that
                    anti-slavery men, to say nothing of abolitionists, would oppose.

                    BTW, the stupidest thing Burnside ever did was not the Battle of
                    Fredericksburg, but ordering the arrest of Vallandigham.

                    And one of the many brilliant politician strokes of Abraham Lincoln was
                    the way he deftly handled Vallandigham, supporting Burnside while
                    getting rid of Val, and dumping him on Jeff Davis.

                    Take care,

                    Bob

                    Judy and Bob Huddleston
                    10643 Sperry Street
                    Northglenn, CO 80234-3612
                    303.451.6276 Adco@...

                    6. In a chance occurrence on his way home from Washington D.C.
                    after the 1859 session of Congress, Clement Vallandigham stopped to
                    interview a particular individual in order to try to link him to
                    Vallandigham's political opponents. The interview was copied by a
                    reporter and published in the New York Herald. This gave
                    Vallandigham national publicity and helped establish him as a
                    proponent of anti-abolition and anti-New England viewpoints. Who was
                    the person he interviewed?





                    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  • Dave Smith
                    ... Bob, I m confused. What interpretation of the Constitution did Vallandigham hold? My interpretation is simply that he believed that the ballot box,
                    Message 9 of 22 , Oct 3, 2001
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                      --- In civilwarwest@y..., "Bob Huddleston" <adco12@m...> wrote:
                      > Quite true -- as long as one accepts Val's interpretation of the
                      > Constitution.

                      Bob, I'm confused. What "interpretation" of the Constitution did
                      Vallandigham hold? My interpretation is simply that he believed that
                      the ballot box, through elected officials, would determine national
                      policy.

                      >
                      > Of course the American people *had* spoken through the Ballot Box in
                      > 1860 and some of the citizens of the some of the states rejected
                      > *that*
                      > solution. And Vallandigham did not provide an answer to what to do
                      > when a bunch of the people rejected the Ballot Box.

                      No, he did not, as opposed to some in the Peace Democrat camp (such
                      as Samuel Medary of the Columbus Crisis). The reason he didn't was
                      that Vallandigham honestly believed that the people, through the
                      ballot process, had spoken. Hence his support for war appropriations.

                      >
                      > Of course Congress, the president and the voters consistently
                      > rejected Vallandigham's argument throughout the war.

                      In the fall elections of 1862, they certainly moved towards those
                      arguments, in terms of the elected officials - especially in Ohio.
                      >
                      > We must also never forget the virulent racism of Vallandigham:
                      > reading his congressional speeches is sickening to us today and was
                      > out of the mainstream (at least in the free states) in the 1860s.

                      Bob, we must agree to disagree. Vallandigham spoke for a wide group
                      of people of the time. Perhaps not a majority, but a large amount of
                      Americans of his time. Certainly his "racism," insofar as today's
                      modern definition can be applied to the word, was not particularly
                      far from mainstream America. In many ways, Vallandigham's views in
                      1860 regarding the black race were not that far out of context with
                      Lincoln's.

                      I'd be hard pressed to consider Vallandigham a "virulent" racist -
                      which suggests that he was something far removed from the mainstream.

                      Best,

                      Dave

                      Dave Smith
                      Villa Hills, KY
                    • Dave Smith
                      ... Which now makes me wonder about Hafendorfer. It wouldn t be the first time, however. :-) Dave, who has some research to do . . .
                      Message 10 of 22 , Oct 3, 2001
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                        --- In civilwarwest@y..., "Bob Huddleston" <adco12@m...> wrote:
                        > I though it was Buell also, but figured I ought to look it up. \
                        > According to Hafendorfer's history of Perryville, it was Wright.

                        Which now makes me wonder about Hafendorfer. It wouldn't be the
                        first time, however. :-)

                        Dave, who has some research to do . . .
                      • Bob Huddleston
                        Hmm. Let me know. When I bought Hafendorfer it was the only thing around on Perryville. What would you suggest for that battle? Take care, Bob Judy and Bob
                        Message 11 of 22 , Oct 3, 2001
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                          Hmm. Let me know. When I bought Hafendorfer it was the only thing around
                          on Perryville.

                          What would you suggest for that battle?

                          Take care,

                          Bob

                          Judy and Bob Huddleston
                          10643 Sperry Street
                          Northglenn, CO 80234-3612
                          303.451.6276 Adco@...

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Dave Smith [mailto:dmsmith001@...]
                          Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 7:59 PM
                          To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Question 5: Some Western Theater Trivia


                          --- In civilwarwest@y..., "Bob Huddleston" <adco12@m...> wrote:
                          > I though it was Buell also, but figured I ought to look it up. \
                          > According to Hafendorfer's history of Perryville, it was Wright.

                          Which now makes me wonder about Hafendorfer. It wouldn't be the
                          first time, however. :-)

                          Dave, who has some research to do . . .







                          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                          http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        • basecat1@aol.com
                          In a message dated 10/4/2001 12:07:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ... Bob...There is a brand new book out on Perryville written by Kenneth Noe. Title escapes me,
                          Message 12 of 22 , Oct 3, 2001
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                            In a message dated 10/4/2001 12:07:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, adco12@... writes:


                            Hmm. Let me know. When I bought Hafendorfer it was the only thing around
                            on Perryville.

                            What would you suggest for that battle?

                            Take care,

                            Bob


                            Bob...There is a brand new book out on Perryville written by Kenneth Noe.   Title escapes me, but is published by UK Press.  Regards from the Garden State, Steve.
                          • Bob Huddleston
                            This is getting confusing! //I ll put my comments in // ... Constitution. Bob, I m confused. What interpretation of the Constitution did Vallandigham hold?
                            Message 13 of 22 , Oct 3, 2001
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                              This is getting confusing! //I'll put my comments in //

                              --- In civilwarwest@y..., "Bob Huddleston" <adco12@m...> wrote:
                              > Quite true -- as long as one accepts Val's interpretation of the
                              Constitution.

                              Bob, I'm confused. What "interpretation" of the Constitution did
                              Vallandigham hold? My interpretation is simply that he believed that
                              the ballot box, through elected officials, would determine national
                              policy.

                              //Of course Lincoln believed the same! Which is why we have differing
                              political parties!//

                              >
                              > Of course the American people *had* spoken through the Ballot Box in
                              1860 and some of the citizens of the some of the states rejected *that*
                              solution. And >Vallandigham did not provide an answer to what to do when
                              a bunch of the people rejected the Ballot Box.

                              No, he did not, as opposed to some in the Peace Democrat camp (such as
                              Samuel Medary of the Columbus Crisis). The reason he didn't was that
                              Vallandigham honestly believed that the people, through the ballot
                              process, had spoken. Hence his support for war appropriations.

                              //As trivia to trivia :>) my brother-in-law used to live on Medary
                              Street in Columbus. Medary was also one of the many men appointed to
                              govern Kansas and was one of the many miserable failures.//
                              >
                              > Of course Congress, the president and the voters consistently rejected
                              Vallandigham's argument throughout the war.

                              In the fall elections of 1862, they certainly moved towards those
                              arguments, in terms of the elected officials - especially in Ohio.

                              //To a point: actually the fall 1862 Congressional elections showed the
                              smallest losses for the party in the White House since before the
                              Mexican-American War. This was a result of (a) the Emancipation
                              Proclamation and the resulting getting out of the anti-slavery vote, as
                              well as the victories at Antietam and Perryville. The President waited
                              until after the elections were over (congressional and state elections
                              were strung out in those days from September until November) to fire
                              McClellan.//

                              //It is true that the Democracy carried fourteen of the nineteen
                              congressional seats. But Vallandigham was defeated fro reelection and
                              the leader of the Ohio Democracy, Sunset Cox, barely was re-elected.

                              //The Unionist (as the Republican and War Democrats were called) had
                              redistricted the state: under the Census of 1860, Ohio dropped from
                              twenty-one to nineteen districts. And just as is happening in our states
                              today, as they wrestle with the Y2K Census, the majority party in the
                              legislature gerrymandered all they could: Cox was from Columbus and
                              Franklin County was split apart, while heavily Republican Warren County
                              was added to Vallandigham's district.

                              //The governor was chosen in odd-numbered years, which reduced the vote
                              -- and soldiers were not eligible to vote until the State Legislature
                              passed a new voting act when they met in January 1863, after the
                              congressional races had completed. If the congressional races went for
                              the Democracy, the new legislature was still safely Unionist and
                              re-elected Benjamin Wade.

                              //In the fall of 1863, Vallandigham was defeated for governor in the
                              largest vote ever cast to then in Ohio:
                              Unionist Democratic
                              Total
                              //1861 206,997 151,794
                              358,791
                              //1862 178,755 184,315
                              363,070
                              //1863 288,374 187,492
                              475,866

                              //The soldier vote in 1863 was 39,000 for Brough, the Unionist, and
                              5,000 for Vallandigham. BTW, the soldier vote was very light: there were
                              160,000 Ohio troops in the field.
                              >


                              > We must also never forget the virulent racism of Vallandigham: reading
                              his congressional speeches is sickening to us today and was out of the
                              > mainstream (at least in the free states) in the 1860s.

                              Bob, we must agree to disagree. Vallandigham spoke for a wide group of
                              people of the time. Perhaps not a majority, but a large amount of
                              Americans of his time. Certainly his "racism," insofar as today's
                              modern definition can be applied to the word, was not particularly far
                              from mainstream America. In many ways, Vallandigham's views in 1860
                              regarding the black race were not that far out of context with
                              Lincoln's.

                              I'd be hard pressed to consider Vallandigham a "virulent" racist - which
                              suggests that he was something far removed from the mainstream.

                              //While hardly an expert on Vallandigham, I do consider his views quite
                              different than Mr. Lincoln's. And the type of stuff Vallandigham spouted
                              about the two races was far out even for the 1860s.//

                              Best,

                              //ditto//

                              Dave

                              Dave Smith
                              Villa Hills, KY

                              Bob

                              Judy and Bob Huddleston
                              10643 Sperry Street
                              Northglenn, CO 80234-3612
                              303.451.6276 Adco@...
                            • Bob Huddleston
                              I have seen that listed. Take care, Bob Judy and Bob Huddleston 10643 Sperry Street Northglenn, CO 80234-3612 303.451.6276 Adco@FilmsToSee.Com In a message
                              Message 14 of 22 , Oct 3, 2001
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                                I have seen that listed.
                                Take care,

                                Bob

                                Judy and Bob Huddleston
                                10643 Sperry Street
                                Northglenn, CO 80234-3612
                                303.451.6276 Adco@...


                                In a message dated 10/4/2001 12:07:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
                                adco12@... writes:



                                Hmm. Let me know. When I bought Hafendorfer it was the only thing around

                                on Perryville.

                                What would you suggest for that battle?

                                Take care,

                                Bob



                                Bob...There is a brand new book out on Perryville written by Kenneth
                                Noe. Title escapes me, but is published by UK Press. Regards from the
                                Garden State, Steve.
                              • carpmaster
                                ... Perryville-This Grand Havoc of Battle Kenneth W.Noe UK Press And a grand book it is, About halfway done, and hope to complete before visiting
                                Message 15 of 22 , Oct 4, 2001
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                                  basecat1@... wrote:

                                  Hmm. Let me know. When I bought Hafendorfer it was the only thing around
                                  on Perryville.

                                  What would you suggest for that battle?

                                  Take care,

                                  Bob

                                      Perryville-This Grand Havoc of  Battle
                                         Kenneth W.Noe      UK Press
                                        And a grand book it is, About halfway done, and hope to complete before
                                  visiting Perryville around the 15th of the month. IMHO a better book than
                                  Hafendorfer's, although being a bit dense I would have appreciated more maps!
                                               Chuck in Il.
                                   
                                • carpmaster
                                  ... On Aug.19, Halleck reorganized the Department of the Ohio and gave most of it to Maj.General Horatio G.Wright. Buell would be in charge of the army as
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Oct 4, 2001
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                                    Dave Smith wrote:

                                    > --- In civilwarwest@y..., "Bob Huddleston" <adco12@m...> wrote:
                                    > > Gilbert was "promoted" by Horatio Wright. Unfortunately generals do
                                    > > not
                                    > > the option of promoting people -- that is a prerogative of the
                                    > > President, by and with the consent of the Senate.
                                    >
                                    > Promoted by Wright? Wright had no control over Buell's army,
                                    > although granted, things were very confused department-wise once
                                    > Buell returned to Kentucky, but I"d not heard that Wright himself
                                    > promoted Gilbert.

                                    On Aug.19, Halleck reorganized the Department of the Ohio and gave most of it
                                    to
                                    Maj.General Horatio G.Wright. Buell would be in charge of the army as well
                                    as most of
                                    Tenn. with Wright head of everything north of Ky. He headed west and set up
                                    his headquarters at Cincinnati instead of Louisville as was urged by
                                    Halleck. ................
                                    Wright needed someone to organize the battered survivors of Richmond
                                    quckly so they could fall back toward Covinton or Frankfort in hopes of
                                    stalling Kirby Smith in front of Cincinnati or Louisville. As Nelson was
                                    wounded Wright needed someone else to take command, brigadier generals
                                    Charles Cruft and James S. Jackson both ducked the assignment. But. both
                                    officers suggested Capt Gilbert. Gilbert had experience at Shiloh, led a
                                    company at Wilson's Creek, was a West Pointer and a vetern of Veracruz.
                                    Wright figured Gilbert was the best choice, excepting his rank being a
                                    problem.
                                    So without any legal authority to do do, Wright promoted Gilbert to 'Acting
                                    Major General" and gave him command of the column.
                                    Condensed from Perryville-A Grand Havoc of Battle, by Noe-(Chapter 5)
                                    Chuck in Il.
                                  • Bob Huddleston
                                    Thanks! Take care, Bob Judy and Bob Huddleston 10643 Sperry Street Northglenn, CO 80234-3612 303.451.6276 Adco@FilmsToSee.Com ... From: carpmaster
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Oct 4, 2001
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                                      Thanks!

                                      Take care,

                                      Bob

                                      Judy and Bob Huddleston
                                      10643 Sperry Street
                                      Northglenn, CO 80234-3612
                                      303.451.6276 Adco@...

                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: carpmaster [mailto:carpmaster@...]
                                      Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2001 7:00 AM
                                      To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Question 5: Some Western Theater Trivia




                                      Dave Smith wrote:

                                      > --- In civilwarwest@y..., "Bob Huddleston" <adco12@m...> wrote:
                                      > > Gilbert was "promoted" by Horatio Wright. Unfortunately generals do
                                      > > not the option of promoting people -- that is a prerogative of the
                                      > > President, by and with the consent of the Senate.
                                      >
                                      > Promoted by Wright? Wright had no control over Buell's army, although

                                      > granted, things were very confused department-wise once Buell returned

                                      > to Kentucky, but I"d not heard that Wright himself promoted Gilbert.

                                      On Aug.19, Halleck reorganized the Department of the Ohio and gave most
                                      of it to Maj.General Horatio G.Wright. Buell would be in charge of the
                                      army as well as most of Tenn. with Wright head of everything north of
                                      Ky. He headed west and set up his headquarters at Cincinnati instead of
                                      Louisville as was urged by Halleck. ................
                                      Wright needed someone to organize the battered survivors of Richmond
                                      quckly so they could fall back toward Covinton or Frankfort in hopes of
                                      stalling Kirby Smith in front of Cincinnati or Louisville. As Nelson was
                                      wounded Wright needed someone else to take command, brigadier generals
                                      Charles Cruft and James S. Jackson both ducked the assignment. But. both
                                      officers suggested Capt Gilbert. Gilbert had experience at Shiloh, led a
                                      company at Wilson's Creek, was a West Pointer and a vetern of Veracruz.
                                      Wright figured Gilbert was the best choice, excepting his rank being a
                                      problem.
                                      So without any legal authority to do do, Wright promoted Gilbert to
                                      'Acting Major General" and gave him command of the column.
                                      Condensed from Perryville-A Grand Havoc of Battle, by Noe-(Chapter
                                      5)
                                      Chuck in Il.





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