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Re: BLOODY HILL by William Riley Brooksher

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  • dmercado@worldnet.att.net
    ... Carl, What does the book say about Major John M. Schofield? He led the 1st Missouri Infantry there and much later (1892) was awarded the Medal of Honor for
    Message 1 of 7 , Aug 31, 2001
      --- In civilwarwest@y..., carlw4514@y... wrote:
      > Just finished this book, which is not just about the battle of
      >Wilson's Creek...

      Carl,
      What does the book say about Major John M. Schofield? He led the 1st
      Missouri Infantry there and much later (1892) was awarded the Medal
      of Honor for his action at Wilson Creek on August 10th. The fact that
      he was the commanding general of the army from 1888 to 1895 makes it
      a little fishy, but I'd like to see what your book says about him.
      Best regards, Dave
    • carlw4514@yahoo.com
      Actually, Joe, it is Sigel who gets routed while the main body of Union troops makes a firm stand. Some officers argued that they should continue to hold
      Message 2 of 7 , Sep 1, 2001
        Actually, Joe, it is Sigel who gets routed while the main body
        of Union troops makes a firm stand. Some officers argued that they
        should continue to hold Bloody Hill rather than retreat, since the
        Rebs hadn't succeeded in pushing them off. I think retreat was a wise
        move as casualties were about even and continued fighting would have
        meant, at an even rate of casualties, the 2 to 1 advantage the Secesh
        troops had would have meant the battle would have come to a point
        where all of a sudden the Yank resistance would have crumbled, IMHO
        (the author does not give himself up to such speculation). It is
        possible that the next move by the Rebs would have been to regroup as
        both sides were low on ammunition, leaving the hill to the Federals,
        but seems to me this would have been a temporary respite.
        As for Sigel, he insisted on the plan to divide the army and
        have his 1200 troops make a surprise attack in the rear of the
        Southerners. Against the advice of all other officers, Lyon agreed to
        the plan, apparently figuring this was the only way to get this
        difficult man to cooperate at all. It turns out that Sigel gets to
        answer the question: "What happens if you cut the supply line of your
        opponent in his rear with a force that is very small?" The answer:
        your outraged foe makes you a top priority and cleans your clock. This
        is what happened, Sigel is routed early on after succeeding with his
        surprise initially; early war confusion about uniforms allowed the
        Rebs to approach within a few paces before opening fire on Sigel,
        rapidly reversing fortunes.
        This is where the Southern troops "get their act together,"
        turning away from the disappearing "Dutch" troops to concentrate on
        Lyon. The whereabouts of Sigel becomes a mystery to the Yanks, causing
        a lot of their problems. Lyon's plan really was to surprise his enemy
        with a smash to send them reeling, then retreat to Rolla, Missouri. He
        totally blamed Freemont's lack of support for his untenable position,
        correctly I think. There was great concern that the withdrawal would
        have been ugly without this attack; it succeeded in this respect, but
        probably only because of the feuding between Price and McCulloch, not
        because the blow was really severe enough to prevent subsequent
        harassment; the Reb cavalry was unused, for example. (Again that's in
        my humble opinion, certainly it was one heck of a fight.)
        Carl


        --- In civilwarwest@y..., hartshje@a... wrote:

        > Carl,
        >
        > In the several versions I have read about Wilson's Creek, the Rebs
        > recover from their surprise, get their act together, force Lyon's
        men
        > back, Lyon is killed trying to rally them, and the line falls apart
        > at that time and is basically routed. Sigel's flanking column
        hardly
        > makes a showing at all, and then retreats when Lyon's force flees
        the
        > scene. Do you know what changed the story? Or am I just
        remembering
        > incorrectly? I visited the battlefield back in 1976. It was fairly
        > pristine at that time. I don't know how much has changed since
        then.
        >
        > Joe H.
      • carlw4514@yahoo.com
        Dave, as I remember, Schofield is present and appreciated as an experienced officer. He dissented on some of Lyon s moves, IIRC, but let me get back to you,
        Message 3 of 7 , Sep 1, 2001
          Dave, as I remember, Schofield is present and appreciated as an
          experienced officer. He dissented on some of Lyon's moves, IIRC, but
          let me get back to you, some officer was at the point of
          insubordination in his dissent, but I don't think it was Schofield. I
          can look it up pretty quickly, but don't have the book with me at the
          moment. I'm sure you know the medal of honor was given out fairly
          freely in the CW, BTW.
          Carl

          --- In civilwarwest@y..., dmercado@w... wrote:
          > --- In civilwarwest@y..., carlw4514@y... wrote:
          > > Just finished this book, which is not just about the battle of
          > >Wilson's Creek...
          >
          > Carl,
          > What does the book say about Major John M. Schofield? He led the 1st
          > Missouri Infantry there and much later (1892) was awarded the Medal
          > of Honor for his action at Wilson Creek on August 10th. The fact
          that
          > he was the commanding general of the army from 1888 to 1895 makes it
          > a little fishy, but I'd like to see what your book says about him.
          > Best regards, Dave
        • hartshje@aol.com
          Wow! You burned me on that one Carl. Actually I guess I burned myself. It s been too long since I read about Wilson s Creek. I guess I better get this book
          Message 4 of 7 , Sep 2, 2001
            Wow! You burned me on that one Carl. Actually I guess I burned
            myself. It's been too long since I read about Wilson's Creek. I
            guess I better get this book you recommended. Anyway, thanks for
            straightening me out.

            Best Regards,
            Joe

            --- In civilwarwest@y..., carlw4514@y... wrote:
            > Actually, Joe, it is Sigel who gets routed while the main
            body
            > of Union troops makes a firm stand. Some officers argued that they
            > should continue to hold Bloody Hill rather than retreat, since the
            > Rebs hadn't succeeded in pushing them off. I think retreat was a
            wise
            > move as casualties were about even and continued fighting would
            have
            > meant, at an even rate of casualties, the 2 to 1 advantage the
            Secesh
            > troops had would have meant the battle would have come to a point
            > where all of a sudden the Yank resistance would have crumbled, IMHO
            > (the author does not give himself up to such speculation). It is
            > possible that the next move by the Rebs would have been to regroup
            as
            > both sides were low on ammunition, leaving the hill to the
            Federals,
            > but seems to me this would have been a temporary respite.
            > As for Sigel, he insisted on the plan to divide the army and
            > have his 1200 troops make a surprise attack in the rear of the
            > Southerners. Against the advice of all other officers, Lyon agreed
            to
            > the plan, apparently figuring this was the only way to get this
            > difficult man to cooperate at all. It turns out that Sigel gets to
            > answer the question: "What happens if you cut the supply line of
            your
            > opponent in his rear with a force that is very small?" The answer:
            > your outraged foe makes you a top priority and cleans your clock.
            This
            > is what happened, Sigel is routed early on after succeeding with
            his
            > surprise initially; early war confusion about uniforms allowed the
            > Rebs to approach within a few paces before opening fire on Sigel,
            > rapidly reversing fortunes.
            > This is where the Southern troops "get their act together,"
            > turning away from the disappearing "Dutch" troops to concentrate on
            > Lyon. The whereabouts of Sigel becomes a mystery to the Yanks,
            causing
            > a lot of their problems. Lyon's plan really was to surprise his
            enemy
            > with a smash to send them reeling, then retreat to Rolla, Missouri.
            He
            > totally blamed Freemont's lack of support for his untenable
            position,
            > correctly I think. There was great concern that the withdrawal
            would
            > have been ugly without this attack; it succeeded in this respect,
            but
            > probably only because of the feuding between Price and McCulloch,
            not
            > because the blow was really severe enough to prevent subsequent
            > harassment; the Reb cavalry was unused, for example. (Again that's
            in
            > my humble opinion, certainly it was one heck of a fight.)
            > Carl
            >
            >
            > --- In civilwarwest@y..., hartshje@a... wrote:
            >
            > > Carl,
            > >
            > > In the several versions I have read about Wilson's Creek, the
            Rebs
            > > recover from their surprise, get their act together, force Lyon's
            > men
            > > back, Lyon is killed trying to rally them, and the line falls
            apart
            > > at that time and is basically routed. Sigel's flanking column
            > hardly
            > > makes a showing at all, and then retreats when Lyon's force flees
            > the
            > > scene. Do you know what changed the story? Or am I just
            > remembering
            > > incorrectly? I visited the battlefield back in 1976. It was
            fairly
            > > pristine at that time. I don't know how much has changed since
            > then.
            > >
            > > Joe H.
          • carlw4514@yahoo.com
            Wasn t trying to burn anybody, Joe, and I m just glad you took the time to fire off some questions. You know, you read the book, and some of it doesn t hit
            Message 5 of 7 , Sep 3, 2001
              Wasn't trying to burn anybody, Joe, and I'm just glad you took the
              time to fire off some questions. You know, you read the book, and
              some of it doesn't hit you till later. I was double-checking the deal
              on Schofield and started to realize that the circumstances of the
              retreat really were extraordinary; you know that really was a mutiny
              of sorts that took place, a fiasco that we don't know much about
              mainly because the Yanks dodged the bullet -- no one was pursuing.
              That's what I like about this group, discussion makes you get more out
              of your reading etc.
              carl
              --- In civilwarwest@y..., hartshje@a... wrote:
              > Wow! You burned me on that one Carl. Actually I guess I burned
              > myself. It's been too long since I read about Wilson's Creek. I
              > guess I better get this book you recommended. Anyway, thanks for
              > straightening me out.
              >
              > Best Regards,
              > Joe
              >
              > --- In civilwarwest@y..., carlw4514@y... wrote:
              > > Actually, Joe, it is Sigel who gets routed while the main
              > body
              > > of Union troops makes a firm stand. Some officers argued that they
              > > should continue to hold Bloody Hill rather than retreat, since the
              > > Rebs hadn't succeeded in pushing them off. I think retreat was a
              > wise
              > > move as casualties were about even and continued fighting would
              > have
              > > meant, at an even rate of casualties, the 2 to 1 advantage the
              > Secesh
              > > troops had would have meant the battle would have come to a point
              > > where all of a sudden the Yank resistance would have crumbled,
              IMHO
              > > (the author does not give himself up to such speculation). It is
              > > possible that the next move by the Rebs would have been to regroup
              > as
              > > both sides were low on ammunition, leaving the hill to the
              > Federals,
              > > but seems to me this would have been a temporary respite.
              > > As for Sigel, he insisted on the plan to divide the army and
              > > have his 1200 troops make a surprise attack in the rear of the
              > > Southerners. Against the advice of all other officers, Lyon agreed
              > to
              > > the plan, apparently figuring this was the only way to get this
              > > difficult man to cooperate at all. It turns out that Sigel gets to
              > > answer the question: "What happens if you cut the supply line of
              > your
              > > opponent in his rear with a force that is very small?" The answer:
              > > your outraged foe makes you a top priority and cleans your clock.
              > This
              > > is what happened, Sigel is routed early on after succeeding with
              > his
              > > surprise initially; early war confusion about uniforms allowed
              the
              > > Rebs to approach within a few paces before opening fire on Sigel,
              > > rapidly reversing fortunes.
              > > This is where the Southern troops "get their act together,"
              > > turning away from the disappearing "Dutch" troops to concentrate
              on
              > > Lyon. The whereabouts of Sigel becomes a mystery to the Yanks,
              > causing
              > > a lot of their problems. Lyon's plan really was to surprise his
              > enemy
              > > with a smash to send them reeling, then retreat to Rolla,
              Missouri.
              > He
              > > totally blamed Freemont's lack of support for his untenable
              > position,
              > > correctly I think. There was great concern that the withdrawal
              > would
              > > have been ugly without this attack; it succeeded in this respect,
              > but
              > > probably only because of the feuding between Price and McCulloch,
              > not
              > > because the blow was really severe enough to prevent subsequent
              > > harassment; the Reb cavalry was unused, for example. (Again that's
              > in
              > > my humble opinion, certainly it was one heck of a fight.)
              > > Carl
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In civilwarwest@y..., hartshje@a... wrote:
              > >
              > > > Carl,
              > > >
              > > > In the several versions I have read about Wilson's Creek, the
              > Rebs
              > > > recover from their surprise, get their act together, force
              Lyon's
              > > men
              > > > back, Lyon is killed trying to rally them, and the line falls
              > apart
              > > > at that time and is basically routed. Sigel's flanking column
              > > hardly
              > > > makes a showing at all, and then retreats when Lyon's force
              flees
              > > the
              > > > scene. Do you know what changed the story? Or am I just
              > > remembering
              > > > incorrectly? I visited the battlefield back in 1976. It was
              > fairly
              > > > pristine at that time. I don't know how much has changed since
              > > then.
              > > >
              > > > Joe H.
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