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[civilwarwest] sherman's war record

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  • Nils Feller
    Don, I think your intense dislike for Sherman makes you overlook at least one undisputable fact; Sherman wasn t much of a battle commander, sure, and you have
    Message 1 of 16 , Jan 30, 2000
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      Don,

      I think your intense dislike for Sherman makes you overlook at least one
      undisputable fact; Sherman wasn't much of a battle commander, sure, and you have
      very convincingly given evidence for some of his misjudgements, but saying that
      he was "worse than Bragg", well, I don't know. The question remains by which
      standard we want to judge "worse" or "better" in a Civil War Commander;
      I suggest we look at the results of their actions. It should be obvious that
      Sherman in his Atlanta campaign and his marches to the sea and throught the
      Carolinas achieved everything he had set out to do: he kept Johnston from
      reenforcing Lee, cut the Confederacy in half and proved beyond the shadow of a
      doubt that the war was lost (but Jeff Davis couldn't admit it and rather had
      some more young southerners die, just to make sure). IMHO, Sherman's campaign
      was strategically speaking excellent and a complete succes. By the way, I think
      he showed some good judgement when he gave Thomas the job of dealing with Hood.
      If we ask for the worst commanders either side, my personal favourites would be
      either Butler or Ambrose Burnside. Hood comes in a close third.

      Looking forward to be proven wrong,
      Nils
    • Nils Feller
      Don, I think your intense dislike for Sherman makes you overlook at least one undisputable fact; Sherman wasn t much of a battle commander, sure, and you have
      Message 2 of 16 , Jan 30, 2000
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        Don,

        I think your intense dislike for Sherman makes you overlook at least one
        undisputable fact; Sherman wasn't much of a battle commander, sure, and you have
        very convincingly given evidence for some of his misjudgements, but saying that
        he was "worse than Bragg", well, I don't know. The question remains by which
        standard we want to judge "worse" or "better" in a Civil War Commander;
        I suggest we look at the results of their actions. It should be obvious that
        Sherman in his Atlanta campaign and his marches to the sea and throught the
        Carolinas achieved everything he had set out to do: he kept Johnston from
        reenforcing Lee, cut the Confederacy in half and proved beyond the shadow of a
        doubt that the war was lost (but Jeff Davis couldn't admit it and rather had
        some more young southerners die, just to make sure). IMHO, Sherman's campaign
        was strategically speaking excellent and a complete succes. By the way, I think
        he showed some good judgement when he gave Thomas the job of dealing with Hood.
        If we ask for the worst commanders either side, my personal favourites would be
        either Butler or Ambrose Burnside. Hood comes in a close third.

        Looking forward to be proven wrong,
        Nils
      • Don Plezia
        Nils! I ve found from experience that one can never prove another wrong in these types of discussions so, I won t try. One, the defender refuses to accept
        Message 3 of 16 , Jan 30, 2000
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          Nils!

          I've found from experience that one can never prove another wrong in
          these types of discussions so, I won't try. One, the defender refuses
          to accept statements contrary to his belief. Two, the discussion leads
          to recriminations and demands for proof of your statements, contrary to
          his convictions. The first is fruitless to pursue. The second I guess,
          is equally so and I refuse to participate in that type of debate. In my
          mind, it seems that I am providing a free education to someone without
          remuneration and besides that sort of thing is best left either to one's
          self or his parents.

          Now, as to my intense dislike of Sherman! I do not "intensely dislike"
          a person who has been dead over a hundred years.

          I do intensely disapprove of what he and Grant did to damage Thomas's
          reputation and enhance their own at his expense. I also intensely
          disapprove of the oodles of books that come out annually proclaiming
          that Grant and Sherman were the best Generals in the war. And repeat
          the lies they spawned.

          I have read (and possess) all the Thomas biographies except Johnson's
          and Cist's and most come thru praising the man for his character,
          bravery, steadiness, patriotism and generalship. I have yet to see any
          writings indicating Thomas was a liar, failure, crazy, drunkard,
          womanizer, or fool as both Sherman and Grant have been characterized in
          many books. I have most of the major works written about Grant and
          Sherman (including their Memoirs) and have read them all a couple of
          times or more except for Lewis's "fighting Prophet", which after about
          twenty pages I put back into my bookcase and never finished (I will not
          throw away a book). All he did was reword Sherman's Memoirs and
          embellish the lies. You know of course, that upon published his
          Memoirs, Sherman immediately set about issuing retractions and later
          published a revised version (s).

          I have read Castell's "Decision in the West" and find it eminently
          critical (with proof) of Sherman's ability. I've read Buell's "Warrior
          Generals" with the same effect. A southerner, Stanley F. Horn is
          absolutely eulogistic about Thomas and the "Battle of Nashville", as are
          others. The O.R.'s on CD offer additional proof.

          So, I have come to the belief that Thomas has been wronged by his
          comrades in arms and is still being slandered by the "historians" of
          today. They spout the conventional wisdom as perpetrated by Grant,
          Sherman and their followers without a hint of research.

          You read what I read and tell me I'm wrong.

          Now, Sherman's accomplishments.

          I am not impressed by his "March to the Sea". He took 62,000 of the
          best men (half of his Army were Thomas's) available, he took all the
          best equipment, artillery, transports, all to fight some old men and
          boys. He had no serious opposition until he met Johnston at
          Bentonville. There, fighting against about 15,000 worn out confederates
          (5,000 from the Army of Tennessee, shattered by Thomas), he almost lost
          one of his Corps. And when he reached Savannah in November (?), the war
          still lasted another six months.

          His original orders ( from Grant) were to make sure he left Thomas with
          enough troops and materiel to whip Hood. He didn't do that! He sent
          Schofield and Stanley back to help (about 25,000 troops) Thomas, and
          when they arrived, about 15,000 left, their term of service had run out.
          He, Thomas, did get replacements, raw, untrained recruits.

          As to the rest, read Castell's assessment of Sherman's abilities. If
          you have an open mind that will enlighten you.

          Now, Bragg.

          Bragg, I am no fan of Bragg's. I think he did to Joe Johnston what
          Grant and Sherman tried to do to Thomas and despise that action. But
          after reading some of the comments on this thread, I returned to
          Connelly's "Autumn of Glory" and read some the comments about Bragg.
          From what I got out of it, Bragg seemed to have had some mental problems
          (Gee, Sherman did too, didn't he?), early in the Tullahoma campaign.
          Check it out. It's tough to judge a man unless you walk in his shoes.
          His inability to get along with some of his subordinates seems to
          indicate some kind of mental aberration. Given the fact that some of
          the dolts he was saddled with enhanced the problem, makes me think Bragg
          was not the whole problem. Certainly, Davis contributed mightily to
          Bragg's problem with his cronyism. Also, if you have the book read the
          description of the condition of the Confederate forces on pp 114 -116.

          Well, I've almost worn the letters off my keyboard and my wife's at the
          door telling me dinners ready and my Martini's gone.

          Hope I've given you some explanation of where I come from.

          Don Plezia


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Nils Feller" <Nils.Feller@...>
          To: <civilwarwest@egroups.com>
          Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2000 3:29 PM
          Subject: [civilwarwest] sherman's war record


          > Don,
          >
          > I think your intense dislike for Sherman makes you overlook at least
          one
          > undisputable fact; Sherman wasn't much of a battle commander, sure,
          and you have
          > very convincingly given evidence for some of his misjudgements, but
          saying that
          > he was "worse than Bragg", well, I don't know. The question remains by
          which
          > standard we want to judge "worse" or "better" in a Civil War
          Commander;
          > I suggest we look at the results of their actions. It should be
          obvious that
          > Sherman in his Atlanta campaign and his marches to the sea and
          throught the
          > Carolinas achieved everything he had set out to do: he kept Johnston
          from
          > reenforcing Lee, cut the Confederacy in half and proved beyond the
          shadow of a
          > doubt that the war was lost (but Jeff Davis couldn't admit it and
          rather had
          > some more young southerners die, just to make sure). IMHO, Sherman's
          campaign
          > was strategically speaking excellent and a complete succes. By the
          way, I think
          > he showed some good judgement when he gave Thomas the job of dealing
          with Hood.
          > If we ask for the worst commanders either side, my personal favourites
          would be
          > either Butler or Ambrose Burnside. Hood comes in a close third.
          >
          > Looking forward to be proven wrong,
          > Nils
          >
          >
          > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
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          > are willing to answer your questions for FREE. Go to Xpertsite today
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          > put your mind to rest.
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          >
        • Don Plezia
          Nils! I ve found from experience that one can never prove another wrong in these types of discussions so, I won t try. One, the defender refuses to accept
          Message 4 of 16 , Jan 30, 2000
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            Nils!

            I've found from experience that one can never prove another wrong in
            these types of discussions so, I won't try. One, the defender refuses
            to accept statements contrary to his belief. Two, the discussion leads
            to recriminations and demands for proof of your statements, contrary to
            his convictions. The first is fruitless to pursue. The second I guess,
            is equally so and I refuse to participate in that type of debate. In my
            mind, it seems that I am providing a free education to someone without
            remuneration and besides that sort of thing is best left either to one's
            self or his parents.

            Now, as to my intense dislike of Sherman! I do not "intensely dislike"
            a person who has been dead over a hundred years.

            I do intensely disapprove of what he and Grant did to damage Thomas's
            reputation and enhance their own at his expense. I also intensely
            disapprove of the oodles of books that come out annually proclaiming
            that Grant and Sherman were the best Generals in the war. And repeat
            the lies they spawned.

            I have read (and possess) all the Thomas biographies except Johnson's
            and Cist's and most come thru praising the man for his character,
            bravery, steadiness, patriotism and generalship. I have yet to see any
            writings indicating Thomas was a liar, failure, crazy, drunkard,
            womanizer, or fool as both Sherman and Grant have been characterized in
            many books. I have most of the major works written about Grant and
            Sherman (including their Memoirs) and have read them all a couple of
            times or more except for Lewis's "fighting Prophet", which after about
            twenty pages I put back into my bookcase and never finished (I will not
            throw away a book). All he did was reword Sherman's Memoirs and
            embellish the lies. You know of course, that upon published his
            Memoirs, Sherman immediately set about issuing retractions and later
            published a revised version (s).

            I have read Castell's "Decision in the West" and find it eminently
            critical (with proof) of Sherman's ability. I've read Buell's "Warrior
            Generals" with the same effect. A southerner, Stanley F. Horn is
            absolutely eulogistic about Thomas and the "Battle of Nashville", as are
            others. The O.R.'s on CD offer additional proof.

            So, I have come to the belief that Thomas has been wronged by his
            comrades in arms and is still being slandered by the "historians" of
            today. They spout the conventional wisdom as perpetrated by Grant,
            Sherman and their followers without a hint of research.

            You read what I read and tell me I'm wrong.

            Now, Sherman's accomplishments.

            I am not impressed by his "March to the Sea". He took 62,000 of the
            best men (half of his Army were Thomas's) available, he took all the
            best equipment, artillery, transports, all to fight some old men and
            boys. He had no serious opposition until he met Johnston at
            Bentonville. There, fighting against about 15,000 worn out confederates
            (5,000 from the Army of Tennessee, shattered by Thomas), he almost lost
            one of his Corps. And when he reached Savannah in November (?), the war
            still lasted another six months.

            His original orders ( from Grant) were to make sure he left Thomas with
            enough troops and materiel to whip Hood. He didn't do that! He sent
            Schofield and Stanley back to help (about 25,000 troops) Thomas, and
            when they arrived, about 15,000 left, their term of service had run out.
            He, Thomas, did get replacements, raw, untrained recruits.

            As to the rest, read Castell's assessment of Sherman's abilities. If
            you have an open mind that will enlighten you.

            Now, Bragg.

            Bragg, I am no fan of Bragg's. I think he did to Joe Johnston what
            Grant and Sherman tried to do to Thomas and despise that action. But
            after reading some of the comments on this thread, I returned to
            Connelly's "Autumn of Glory" and read some the comments about Bragg.
            From what I got out of it, Bragg seemed to have had some mental problems
            (Gee, Sherman did too, didn't he?), early in the Tullahoma campaign.
            Check it out. It's tough to judge a man unless you walk in his shoes.
            His inability to get along with some of his subordinates seems to
            indicate some kind of mental aberration. Given the fact that some of
            the dolts he was saddled with enhanced the problem, makes me think Bragg
            was not the whole problem. Certainly, Davis contributed mightily to
            Bragg's problem with his cronyism. Also, if you have the book read the
            description of the condition of the Confederate forces on pp 114 -116.

            Well, I've almost worn the letters off my keyboard and my wife's at the
            door telling me dinners ready and my Martini's gone.

            Hope I've given you some explanation of where I come from.

            Don Plezia


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Nils Feller" <Nils.Feller@...>
            To: <civilwarwest@egroups.com>
            Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2000 3:29 PM
            Subject: [civilwarwest] sherman's war record


            > Don,
            >
            > I think your intense dislike for Sherman makes you overlook at least
            one
            > undisputable fact; Sherman wasn't much of a battle commander, sure,
            and you have
            > very convincingly given evidence for some of his misjudgements, but
            saying that
            > he was "worse than Bragg", well, I don't know. The question remains by
            which
            > standard we want to judge "worse" or "better" in a Civil War
            Commander;
            > I suggest we look at the results of their actions. It should be
            obvious that
            > Sherman in his Atlanta campaign and his marches to the sea and
            throught the
            > Carolinas achieved everything he had set out to do: he kept Johnston
            from
            > reenforcing Lee, cut the Confederacy in half and proved beyond the
            shadow of a
            > doubt that the war was lost (but Jeff Davis couldn't admit it and
            rather had
            > some more young southerners die, just to make sure). IMHO, Sherman's
            campaign
            > was strategically speaking excellent and a complete succes. By the
            way, I think
            > he showed some good judgement when he gave Thomas the job of dealing
            with Hood.
            > If we ask for the worst commanders either side, my personal favourites
            would be
            > either Butler or Ambrose Burnside. Hood comes in a close third.
            >
            > Looking forward to be proven wrong,
            > Nils
            >
            >
            > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
            --
            > FREE ADVICE FROM REAL PEOPLE! Xpertsite has thousands of experts who
            > are willing to answer your questions for FREE. Go to Xpertsite today
            and
            > put your mind to rest.
            > http://click.egroups.com/1/1033/1/_/14182/_/949264211/
            >
            > -- Check out your group's private Chat room
            > -- http://www.egroups.com/ChatPage?listName=civilwarwest&m=1
            >
            >
            >
          • dmercado@worldnet.att.net
            don plezia wrote: original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/civilwarwest/?start=577 ... and Cist s and most come thru praising
            Message 5 of 16 , Jan 30, 2000
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              "don plezia" <oneple-@...> wrote:
              original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/civilwarwest/?start=577
              >I have read (and possess) all the Thomas biographies except Johnson's
              and Cist's and most come thru praising the man for his character,

              Don, ebay is offering a Broadfoot reprint of H. Cist's "Army of the
              Cumberland". It is a great book. GOTO this link for details:
              http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=242980308

              but hurry, the auction ends on Monday 1:55PM PST
            • dmercado@worldnet.att.net
              don plezia wrote: original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/civilwarwest/?start=577 ... and Cist s and most come thru praising
              Message 6 of 16 , Jan 30, 2000
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                "don plezia" <oneple-@...> wrote:
                original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/civilwarwest/?start=577
                >I have read (and possess) all the Thomas biographies except Johnson's
                and Cist's and most come thru praising the man for his character,

                Don, ebay is offering a Broadfoot reprint of H. Cist's "Army of the
                Cumberland". It is a great book. GOTO this link for details:
                http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=242980308

                but hurry, the auction ends on Monday 1:55PM PST
              • Hawks027@aol.com
                are there any good books on J. Chamberlain? thanks, also what do you guys think was the turning point of the war??
                Message 7 of 16 , Feb 4, 2000
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                  are there any good books on J. Chamberlain? thanks, also what do you guys
                  think was the turning point of the war??
                • Hawks027@aol.com
                  are there any good books on J. Chamberlain? thanks, also what do you guys think was the turning point of the war??
                  Message 8 of 16 , Feb 4, 2000
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                    are there any good books on J. Chamberlain? thanks, also what do you guys
                    think was the turning point of the war??
                  • REGIMENTALFLAG@aol.com
                    I feel that Chattanooga,November `63 was the turning point . Would like to hear everyone s opinion on this. Thanks, Regimental Flag
                    Message 9 of 16 , Feb 4, 2000
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                      I feel that Chattanooga,November `63 was the turning point .
                      Would like to hear everyone's opinion on this.
                      Thanks,
                      Regimental Flag
                    • REGIMENTALFLAG@aol.com
                      I feel that Chattanooga,November `63 was the turning point . Would like to hear everyone s opinion on this. Thanks, Regimental Flag
                      Message 10 of 16 , Feb 4, 2000
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                        I feel that Chattanooga,November `63 was the turning point .
                        Would like to hear everyone's opinion on this.
                        Thanks,
                        Regimental Flag
                      • Andy Berstel
                        regimentalfla-@aol.com wrote: original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/civilwarwest/?start=591 ... Hard to say Reg. Stones River and Chickamauga were the
                        Message 11 of 16 , Feb 5, 2000
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                          regimentalfla-@... wrote:
                          original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/civilwarwest/?start=591
                          > I feel that Chattanooga,November `63 was the turning point .
                          > Would like to hear everyone's opinion on this.
                          > Thanks,
                          > Regimental Flag


                          :
                          Hard to say Reg. Stones River and Chickamauga were the best
                          opportunities for the Army of Tennessee to thoroughly whip the Army of
                          the Cumberland. Squandered by Bragg, which caused a complete lack of
                          confidence in him by his officers and men. This, more than anything
                          Grant did, led to the AOT being knocked off Missionary Ridge as easily
                          as they were. I suppose you could say it was the turning point in that
                          it brought Grant to prominence and resulted in him being put in charge
                          of all Union forces. I dont think the north would have won without his
                          overall strategies and the determination to see them through.

                          Regards,
                          Andy
                        • Andy Berstel
                          regimentalfla-@aol.com wrote: original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/civilwarwest/?start=591 ... Hard to say Reg. Stones River and Chickamauga were the
                          Message 12 of 16 , Feb 5, 2000
                          • 0 Attachment
                            regimentalfla-@... wrote:
                            original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/civilwarwest/?start=591
                            > I feel that Chattanooga,November `63 was the turning point .
                            > Would like to hear everyone's opinion on this.
                            > Thanks,
                            > Regimental Flag


                            :
                            Hard to say Reg. Stones River and Chickamauga were the best
                            opportunities for the Army of Tennessee to thoroughly whip the Army of
                            the Cumberland. Squandered by Bragg, which caused a complete lack of
                            confidence in him by his officers and men. This, more than anything
                            Grant did, led to the AOT being knocked off Missionary Ridge as easily
                            as they were. I suppose you could say it was the turning point in that
                            it brought Grant to prominence and resulted in him being put in charge
                            of all Union forces. I dont think the north would have won without his
                            overall strategies and the determination to see them through.

                            Regards,
                            Andy
                          • Terry Arliskas
                            Try In the Hands of Providence, Joshua Chamberlain and the American Civil War by Alice Trulock - Chapel Hill Press. Great Bio - My opinion on the turning
                            Message 13 of 16 , Feb 5, 2000
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                              Try "In the Hands of Providence, Joshua Chamberlain and the American Civil
                              War" by Alice Trulock - Chapel Hill Press. Great Bio -

                              My opinion on the turning point of the War - Battle of Champions Hill, May
                              16. 1863. Pemberton's defeatand Loring's retreat south whixh separates him
                              from the rest of Pemberton's command, effectively took him out of the
                              Vicksburg campaign, and the ultimate fall of Vicksburg was assured.

                              Terry Arliskas
                              29WVI

                              >From: Hawks027@...
                              >Reply-To: civilwarwest@egroups.com
                              >To: civilwarwest@egroups.com
                              >Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: sherman's war record
                              >Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 17:56:46 EST
                              >
                              >
                              >are there any good books on J. Chamberlain? thanks, also what do you guys
                              >think was the turning point of the war??
                              >
                              >------------------------------------------------------------------------
                              >Shop for your Valentine at eGroups!
                              >http://click.egroups.com/1/1157/1/_/14182/_/949705041/
                              >
                              >-- Easily schedule meetings and events using the group calendar!
                              >-- http://www.egroups.com/cal?listname=civilwarwest&m=1
                              >

                              ______________________________________________________
                            • Terry Arliskas
                              Try In the Hands of Providence, Joshua Chamberlain and the American Civil War by Alice Trulock - Chapel Hill Press. Great Bio - My opinion on the turning
                              Message 14 of 16 , Feb 5, 2000
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                                Try "In the Hands of Providence, Joshua Chamberlain and the American Civil
                                War" by Alice Trulock - Chapel Hill Press. Great Bio -

                                My opinion on the turning point of the War - Battle of Champions Hill, May
                                16. 1863. Pemberton's defeatand Loring's retreat south whixh separates him
                                from the rest of Pemberton's command, effectively took him out of the
                                Vicksburg campaign, and the ultimate fall of Vicksburg was assured.

                                Terry Arliskas
                                29WVI

                                >From: Hawks027@...
                                >Reply-To: civilwarwest@egroups.com
                                >To: civilwarwest@egroups.com
                                >Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: sherman's war record
                                >Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 17:56:46 EST
                                >
                                >
                                >are there any good books on J. Chamberlain? thanks, also what do you guys
                                >think was the turning point of the war??
                                >
                                >------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                >Shop for your Valentine at eGroups!
                                >http://click.egroups.com/1/1157/1/_/14182/_/949705041/
                                >
                                >-- Easily schedule meetings and events using the group calendar!
                                >-- http://www.egroups.com/cal?listname=civilwarwest&m=1
                                >

                                ______________________________________________________
                              • Anna Howland
                                hawks02-@aol.com wrote: original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/civilwarwest/?start=590 ... guys There has been a bonanza of book written re-examining
                                Message 15 of 16 , Feb 5, 2000
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                                  hawks02-@... wrote:
                                  original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/civilwarwest/?start=590
                                  > are there any good books on J. Chamberlain? thanks, also what do you
                                  guys

                                  There has been a bonanza of book written re-examining Chamberlain-- 1)
                                  Conceived in Liberty by Mark Perry (examines the parallel career of
                                  Chamberlain and Willaim Oates who faced off on little Round Tops) and a
                                  new biography called 2) Joshua Chamberlain by John Pullen (who brought
                                  to us the story of him in the book "the Twentieth Maine") Anna H.
                                • Anna Howland
                                  hawks02-@aol.com wrote: original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/civilwarwest/?start=590 ... guys There has been a bonanza of book written re-examining
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Feb 5, 2000
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    hawks02-@... wrote:
                                    original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/civilwarwest/?start=590
                                    > are there any good books on J. Chamberlain? thanks, also what do you
                                    guys

                                    There has been a bonanza of book written re-examining Chamberlain-- 1)
                                    Conceived in Liberty by Mark Perry (examines the parallel career of
                                    Chamberlain and Willaim Oates who faced off on little Round Tops) and a
                                    new biography called 2) Joshua Chamberlain by John Pullen (who brought
                                    to us the story of him in the book "the Twentieth Maine") Anna H.
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