Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

[civilwarwest] If not Bragg, who?

Expand Messages
  • The Coys
    I have decided to take on the unworthy task of redeeming the names of Braxton Bragg and William S. Rosecrans. :) My question to the group is if you were
    Message 1 of 16 , Jan 27, 2000
    • 0 Attachment
      I have decided to take on the unworthy task of redeeming the
      names of Braxton Bragg and William S. Rosecrans. :)

      My question to the group is if you were Jefferson Davis in
      1862 who would you have made Commanding General? Remember that
      this is 1862 and A.S. Johnston was killed at Shiloh. J. E.
      Johnston was still the CG of that eastern group and Robert E. Lee
      was the president's Chief of staff. Longstreet and Jackson have
      yet to reach their full potential and legendary status. P. G. T.
      Beauregard, the hero of Fort Sumter and 1st Bull Run(1st
      Manassas), just withdrew from Pittsburg Landing and Corinth and
      decided he needed a leave of absence. AWOL in other words.

      I think Bragg was the proper choice. When you think of your
      choice try to place him in the proper time frame, i.e. I don't
      think Cleburne, had distinguished himself enough yet to receive
      command of an army. Hardee possibly could be a choice. If not
      Bragg, who?

      Your Obedient Servant,

      Kevin S. Coy
    • The Coys
      I have decided to take on the unworthy task of redeeming the names of Braxton Bragg and William S. Rosecrans. :) My question to the group is if you were
      Message 2 of 16 , Jan 27, 2000
      • 0 Attachment
        I have decided to take on the unworthy task of redeeming the
        names of Braxton Bragg and William S. Rosecrans. :)

        My question to the group is if you were Jefferson Davis in
        1862 who would you have made Commanding General? Remember that
        this is 1862 and A.S. Johnston was killed at Shiloh. J. E.
        Johnston was still the CG of that eastern group and Robert E. Lee
        was the president's Chief of staff. Longstreet and Jackson have
        yet to reach their full potential and legendary status. P. G. T.
        Beauregard, the hero of Fort Sumter and 1st Bull Run(1st
        Manassas), just withdrew from Pittsburg Landing and Corinth and
        decided he needed a leave of absence. AWOL in other words.

        I think Bragg was the proper choice. When you think of your
        choice try to place him in the proper time frame, i.e. I don't
        think Cleburne, had distinguished himself enough yet to receive
        command of an army. Hardee possibly could be a choice. If not
        Bragg, who?

        Your Obedient Servant,

        Kevin S. Coy
      • rhines@joln.net
        Bragg was the logical choice at the time he was place in command of the AoT. Though I believe that long before Chattanooga he proved himself not worthy of such
        Message 3 of 16 , Jan 27, 2000
        • 0 Attachment
          Bragg was the logical choice at the time he was place in command of the
          AoT. Though I believe that long before Chattanooga he proved himself
          not worthy of such a command. Joe Johnston was in the Western Theater
          before the fall of Vicksburg. It is merely my opinion that he should
          have been allowed actual command of the West and allowed to combine his
          forces to defeat the Union Armies as seemed his wish at the time.

          I am not saying that the war in the West could have been won by the
          South, but I do believe that the combining of forces to allow the South
          to meet either Northern Army on superior terms at the time certainly
          wouldn't have hurt their cause. Gen. Halleck from Washington, as he did
          after Shiloh and Corinth scattered the Western Union Army, and may have
          done so after the removale of Pemberton and Johnston from the Vicksburg
          area before realizing the danger to Rosecrans.


          the coys <thecoy-@...> wrote:
          original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/civilwarwest/?start=543
          > I have decided to take on the unworthy task of redeeming the
          > names of Braxton Bragg and William S. Rosecrans. :)
          >
          > My question to the group is if you were Jefferson Davis in
          > 1862 who would you have made Commanding General? Remember that
          > this is 1862 and A.S. Johnston was killed at Shiloh. J. E.
          > Johnston was still the CG of that eastern group and Robert E. Lee
          > was the president's Chief of staff. Longstreet and Jackson have
          > yet to reach their full potential and legendary status. P. G. T.
          > Beauregard, the hero of Fort Sumter and 1st Bull Run(1st
          > Manassas), just withdrew from Pittsburg Landing and Corinth and
          > decided he needed a leave of absence. AWOL in other words.
          >
          > I think Bragg was the proper choice. When you think of your
          > choice try to place him in the proper time frame, i.e. I don't
          > think Cleburne, had distinguished himself enough yet to receive
          > command of an army. Hardee possibly could be a choice. If not
          > Bragg, who?
          >
          > Your Obedient Servant,
          >
          > Kevin S. Coy
          >
        • rhines@joln.net
          Bragg was the logical choice at the time he was place in command of the AoT. Though I believe that long before Chattanooga he proved himself not worthy of such
          Message 4 of 16 , Jan 27, 2000
          • 0 Attachment
            Bragg was the logical choice at the time he was place in command of the
            AoT. Though I believe that long before Chattanooga he proved himself
            not worthy of such a command. Joe Johnston was in the Western Theater
            before the fall of Vicksburg. It is merely my opinion that he should
            have been allowed actual command of the West and allowed to combine his
            forces to defeat the Union Armies as seemed his wish at the time.

            I am not saying that the war in the West could have been won by the
            South, but I do believe that the combining of forces to allow the South
            to meet either Northern Army on superior terms at the time certainly
            wouldn't have hurt their cause. Gen. Halleck from Washington, as he did
            after Shiloh and Corinth scattered the Western Union Army, and may have
            done so after the removale of Pemberton and Johnston from the Vicksburg
            area before realizing the danger to Rosecrans.


            the coys <thecoy-@...> wrote:
            original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/civilwarwest/?start=543
            > I have decided to take on the unworthy task of redeeming the
            > names of Braxton Bragg and William S. Rosecrans. :)
            >
            > My question to the group is if you were Jefferson Davis in
            > 1862 who would you have made Commanding General? Remember that
            > this is 1862 and A.S. Johnston was killed at Shiloh. J. E.
            > Johnston was still the CG of that eastern group and Robert E. Lee
            > was the president's Chief of staff. Longstreet and Jackson have
            > yet to reach their full potential and legendary status. P. G. T.
            > Beauregard, the hero of Fort Sumter and 1st Bull Run(1st
            > Manassas), just withdrew from Pittsburg Landing and Corinth and
            > decided he needed a leave of absence. AWOL in other words.
            >
            > I think Bragg was the proper choice. When you think of your
            > choice try to place him in the proper time frame, i.e. I don't
            > think Cleburne, had distinguished himself enough yet to receive
            > command of an army. Hardee possibly could be a choice. If not
            > Bragg, who?
            >
            > Your Obedient Servant,
            >
            > Kevin S. Coy
            >
          • Dick Weeks
            Well, I m certainly not well versed enough in the West to carry this discussion to where it should go, but I think, at least for my part, we are talking about
            Message 5 of 16 , Jan 27, 2000
            • 0 Attachment
              Well, I'm certainly not well versed enough in the West to carry this
              discussion to where it should go, but I think, at least for my part, we are
              talking about two different times. I don't think I said that Bragg should
              never have been given a chance in '62. He was qualified, and he was a
              personal friend of Davis. Either one of those would put him in position to
              command. However, Chattanooga was not the first time he made huge mistakes.
              Just how many chances should one be given. To refer to the other side and
              the other theater for just a moment, Mac was given two chances (that was one
              too many in my opinion), Pope was given one chance, Burnside was given one
              chance, Hooker, lord love him, except for being somewhat obstinate about
              some troops at Harpers Ferry might have lasted longer, but for arguments
              sake, he was given one chance. Meade, even with a great victory under his
              belt, because he didn't pursue, was given one chance. Surely, Davis, could
              see that Bragg, as Lincoln could see his generals faults, was wrong for
              command. Why didn't he replace him? (Notice I didn't ask why did he appoint
              him in the first place). I think Bragg could have done very well in a job
              like Lee had before Seven Pines, something like Halleck on the other side
              for a good part of the war.

              Now for the sake of discussion, let's say that Bragg was the logical choice
              in '62 (maybe, maybe not), at some point, well before Chattanooga, he had
              shown he was not fit for command (my opinion). When should he have been
              replaced and by whom? Understand, I am asking for enlightenment and not to
              cause an argument. I have an opinion but since this stuff is west of
              Virginia, I will hold it in abeyance for now.

              Just some thoughts.

              I am, very respectfully, your obedient servant,
              Dick (a.k.a. Shotgun)
              http://www.civilwarhome.com

              > I have decided to take on the unworthy task of redeeming the
              > names of Braxton Bragg and William S. Rosecrans. :)
              >
              > My question to the group is if you were Jefferson Davis in
              > 1862 who would you have made Commanding General? Remember that
              > this is 1862 and A.S. Johnston was killed at Shiloh. J. E.
              > Johnston was still the CG of that eastern group and Robert E. Lee
              > was the president's Chief of staff. Longstreet and Jackson have
              > yet to reach their full potential and legendary status. P. G. T.
              > Beauregard, the hero of Fort Sumter and 1st Bull Run(1st
              > Manassas), just withdrew from Pittsburg Landing and Corinth and
              > decided he needed a leave of absence. AWOL in other words.
              >
              > I think Bragg was the proper choice. When you think of your
              > choice try to place him in the proper time frame, i.e. I don't
              > think Cleburne, had distinguished himself enough yet to receive
              > command of an army. Hardee possibly could be a choice. If not
              > Bragg, who?
              >
              > Your Obedient Servant,
              >
              > Kevin S. Coy
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
              > WEMedia.com empowers persons with disabilities to build a strong and
              vibrant community.
              > http://click.egroups.com/1/682/1/_/14182/_/949014588/
              >
              > -- 20 megs of disk space in your group's Document Vault
              > -- http://www.egroups.com/docvault/civilwarwest/?m=1
              >
              >
              >
            • Dick Weeks
              Well, I m certainly not well versed enough in the West to carry this discussion to where it should go, but I think, at least for my part, we are talking about
              Message 6 of 16 , Jan 27, 2000
              • 0 Attachment
                Well, I'm certainly not well versed enough in the West to carry this
                discussion to where it should go, but I think, at least for my part, we are
                talking about two different times. I don't think I said that Bragg should
                never have been given a chance in '62. He was qualified, and he was a
                personal friend of Davis. Either one of those would put him in position to
                command. However, Chattanooga was not the first time he made huge mistakes.
                Just how many chances should one be given. To refer to the other side and
                the other theater for just a moment, Mac was given two chances (that was one
                too many in my opinion), Pope was given one chance, Burnside was given one
                chance, Hooker, lord love him, except for being somewhat obstinate about
                some troops at Harpers Ferry might have lasted longer, but for arguments
                sake, he was given one chance. Meade, even with a great victory under his
                belt, because he didn't pursue, was given one chance. Surely, Davis, could
                see that Bragg, as Lincoln could see his generals faults, was wrong for
                command. Why didn't he replace him? (Notice I didn't ask why did he appoint
                him in the first place). I think Bragg could have done very well in a job
                like Lee had before Seven Pines, something like Halleck on the other side
                for a good part of the war.

                Now for the sake of discussion, let's say that Bragg was the logical choice
                in '62 (maybe, maybe not), at some point, well before Chattanooga, he had
                shown he was not fit for command (my opinion). When should he have been
                replaced and by whom? Understand, I am asking for enlightenment and not to
                cause an argument. I have an opinion but since this stuff is west of
                Virginia, I will hold it in abeyance for now.

                Just some thoughts.

                I am, very respectfully, your obedient servant,
                Dick (a.k.a. Shotgun)
                http://www.civilwarhome.com

                > I have decided to take on the unworthy task of redeeming the
                > names of Braxton Bragg and William S. Rosecrans. :)
                >
                > My question to the group is if you were Jefferson Davis in
                > 1862 who would you have made Commanding General? Remember that
                > this is 1862 and A.S. Johnston was killed at Shiloh. J. E.
                > Johnston was still the CG of that eastern group and Robert E. Lee
                > was the president's Chief of staff. Longstreet and Jackson have
                > yet to reach their full potential and legendary status. P. G. T.
                > Beauregard, the hero of Fort Sumter and 1st Bull Run(1st
                > Manassas), just withdrew from Pittsburg Landing and Corinth and
                > decided he needed a leave of absence. AWOL in other words.
                >
                > I think Bragg was the proper choice. When you think of your
                > choice try to place him in the proper time frame, i.e. I don't
                > think Cleburne, had distinguished himself enough yet to receive
                > command of an army. Hardee possibly could be a choice. If not
                > Bragg, who?
                >
                > Your Obedient Servant,
                >
                > Kevin S. Coy
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                > WEMedia.com empowers persons with disabilities to build a strong and
                vibrant community.
                > http://click.egroups.com/1/682/1/_/14182/_/949014588/
                >
                > -- 20 megs of disk space in your group's Document Vault
                > -- http://www.egroups.com/docvault/civilwarwest/?m=1
                >
                >
                >
              • The Coys
                After Murfreesboro/Stones River, Joe Johnston, as commander of Department 2, was sent to the AoT by Jefferson Davis to investigate the complaints of the
                Message 7 of 16 , Jan 27, 2000
                • 0 Attachment
                  After Murfreesboro/Stones River, Joe Johnston, as commander of
                  Department 2, was sent to the AoT by Jefferson Davis to investigate the
                  complaints of the several Generals in that army, Polk, Breckinridge, etc.
                  Davis hoped that Johnston would see that a new commander was needed and that
                  Johnston as senior General would take the command. Instead, Johnston wrote
                  to Davis that the AoT was in good condition and a new General was not
                  needed. Joseph Eggleston Johnston DID NOT want command.


                  Y.O.S.
                  Kevin S. Coy


                  rhines@... wrote:

                  > Bragg was the logical choice at the time he was place in command of the
                  > AoT. Though I believe that long before Chattanooga he proved himself
                  > not worthy of such a command. Joe Johnston was in the Western Theater
                  > before the fall of Vicksburg. It is merely my opinion that he should
                  > have been allowed actual command of the West and allowed to combine his
                  > forces to defeat the Union Armies as seemed his wish at the time.
                  >
                  > <rest of post snipped>
                • The Coys
                  After Murfreesboro/Stones River, Joe Johnston, as commander of Department 2, was sent to the AoT by Jefferson Davis to investigate the complaints of the
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jan 27, 2000
                  • 0 Attachment
                    After Murfreesboro/Stones River, Joe Johnston, as commander of
                    Department 2, was sent to the AoT by Jefferson Davis to investigate the
                    complaints of the several Generals in that army, Polk, Breckinridge, etc.
                    Davis hoped that Johnston would see that a new commander was needed and that
                    Johnston as senior General would take the command. Instead, Johnston wrote
                    to Davis that the AoT was in good condition and a new General was not
                    needed. Joseph Eggleston Johnston DID NOT want command.


                    Y.O.S.
                    Kevin S. Coy


                    rhines@... wrote:

                    > Bragg was the logical choice at the time he was place in command of the
                    > AoT. Though I believe that long before Chattanooga he proved himself
                    > not worthy of such a command. Joe Johnston was in the Western Theater
                    > before the fall of Vicksburg. It is merely my opinion that he should
                    > have been allowed actual command of the West and allowed to combine his
                    > forces to defeat the Union Armies as seemed his wish at the time.
                    >
                    > <rest of post snipped>
                  • rhines@joln.net
                    Johnston did want command I believe. Joe Johnston did not want people to think he was using his position to take command. It was an honor thing. He knew the
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jan 27, 2000
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Johnston did want command I believe. Joe Johnston did not want people
                      to think he was using his position to take command. It was an honor
                      thing. He knew the need for change, but he also knew he would be the
                      one to take command. Johnston's honor meant all to him, which in my
                      opinion is what kept him in hot water with the hierarchy of the
                      Confederacy. To have spoken against Bragg under those circumstances was
                      below his idea of honor so in hopes that Davis was more interested in
                      winning the war, Johnstonfelt obligated to put Bragg in the best light.
                      Will look up what I have but I don't believe off hand that Johnston
                      gave Bragg a totally clean slate, but did infact invite someone from
                      Richmond to have a look for themselves. Will check


                      the coys <thecoy-@...> wrote:
                      original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/civilwarwest/?start=548
                      > After Murfreesboro/Stones River, Joe Johnston, as commander of
                      > Department 2, was sent to the AoT by Jefferson Davis to investigate
                      the
                      > complaints of the several Generals in that army, Polk, Breckinridge,
                      etc.
                      > Davis hoped that Johnston would see that a new commander was needed
                      and that
                      > Johnston as senior General would take the command. Instead, Johnston
                      wrote
                      > to Davis that the AoT was in good condition and a new General was not
                      > needed. Joseph Eggleston Johnston DID NOT want command.
                      >
                      >
                      > Y.O.S.
                      > Kevin S. Coy
                      >
                      >
                      > rhines@... wrote:
                      >
                      > > Bragg was the logical choice at the time he was place in command of
                      the
                      > > AoT. Though I believe that long before Chattanooga he proved himself
                      > > not worthy of such a command. Joe Johnston was in the Western
                      Theater
                      > > before the fall of Vicksburg. It is merely my opinion that he should
                      > > have been allowed actual command of the West and allowed to combine
                      his
                      > > forces to defeat the Union Armies as seemed his wish at the time.
                      > >
                      > > <rest of post snipped>
                      >
                    • rhines@joln.net
                      Johnston did want command I believe. Joe Johnston did not want people to think he was using his position to take command. It was an honor thing. He knew the
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jan 27, 2000
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Johnston did want command I believe. Joe Johnston did not want people
                        to think he was using his position to take command. It was an honor
                        thing. He knew the need for change, but he also knew he would be the
                        one to take command. Johnston's honor meant all to him, which in my
                        opinion is what kept him in hot water with the hierarchy of the
                        Confederacy. To have spoken against Bragg under those circumstances was
                        below his idea of honor so in hopes that Davis was more interested in
                        winning the war, Johnstonfelt obligated to put Bragg in the best light.
                        Will look up what I have but I don't believe off hand that Johnston
                        gave Bragg a totally clean slate, but did infact invite someone from
                        Richmond to have a look for themselves. Will check


                        the coys <thecoy-@...> wrote:
                        original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/civilwarwest/?start=548
                        > After Murfreesboro/Stones River, Joe Johnston, as commander of
                        > Department 2, was sent to the AoT by Jefferson Davis to investigate
                        the
                        > complaints of the several Generals in that army, Polk, Breckinridge,
                        etc.
                        > Davis hoped that Johnston would see that a new commander was needed
                        and that
                        > Johnston as senior General would take the command. Instead, Johnston
                        wrote
                        > to Davis that the AoT was in good condition and a new General was not
                        > needed. Joseph Eggleston Johnston DID NOT want command.
                        >
                        >
                        > Y.O.S.
                        > Kevin S. Coy
                        >
                        >
                        > rhines@... wrote:
                        >
                        > > Bragg was the logical choice at the time he was place in command of
                        the
                        > > AoT. Though I believe that long before Chattanooga he proved himself
                        > > not worthy of such a command. Joe Johnston was in the Western
                        Theater
                        > > before the fall of Vicksburg. It is merely my opinion that he should
                        > > have been allowed actual command of the West and allowed to combine
                        his
                        > > forces to defeat the Union Armies as seemed his wish at the time.
                        > >
                        > > <rest of post snipped>
                        >
                      • Mike Meno
                        Certainly at the time, Bragg was the only logical alternative, but I belive that he should have been replaced later in the war. If the Confederacy desired to
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jan 27, 2000
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Certainly at the time, Bragg was the only logical alternative, but I belive
                          that he should have been replaced later in the war. If the Confederacy
                          desired to win, it was evident that Bragg had to go. I belive during and
                          after Knoxville, Longstreet should have been given command. Considering his
                          great defenseive tactics, the war may have ended differently, or at least it
                          would of taken a lot longer for the Western theater to fall.

                          Your Obedient Servant:

                          Mike Meno

                          ______________________________________________________
                        • Mike Meno
                          Certainly at the time, Bragg was the only logical alternative, but I belive that he should have been replaced later in the war. If the Confederacy desired to
                          Message 12 of 16 , Jan 27, 2000
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Certainly at the time, Bragg was the only logical alternative, but I belive
                            that he should have been replaced later in the war. If the Confederacy
                            desired to win, it was evident that Bragg had to go. I belive during and
                            after Knoxville, Longstreet should have been given command. Considering his
                            great defenseive tactics, the war may have ended differently, or at least it
                            would of taken a lot longer for the Western theater to fall.

                            Your Obedient Servant:

                            Mike Meno

                            ______________________________________________________
                          • The Coys
                            In Steven E. Woodworth, Jefferson Davis and His Generals: The Failure of Confederate Command in the West, Lawrence, University of Kansas Press, 1990. On page
                            Message 13 of 16 , Jan 27, 2000
                            • 0 Attachment
                                  In Steven E. Woodworth, Jefferson Davis and His Generals: The Failure of Confederate Command in the West,  Lawrence, University of Kansas Press, 1990.

                              On page 196, "Johnston arrived at Tullahoma around the end of January and was impressed by what he found.  It was true that some of the generals were hostile to Bragg, particularly those whose failures at Murfreesboro Bragg had pointed out"

                              This then goes into several quotes by Cheatham and McCown stating they wouldn't fight for Bragg anymore. Then continues with:

                                  "A few other generals such as Polk and Hardee were also disgruntled, but Johnston found that the rank and file were mostly in good spirits and showed no signs of a lack of confidence in their commander.  He was also impressed with the condition of the army.  Thanks to Bragg's administrative genius, it was well clothed, healthy, and well disciplined. Moreover, [pg 197] by early February, it numbered more than the total taken into battle on the last day of 1862, thanks to Braggs efficiency in rounding up stragglers and enforcing the conscript act in Tennessee.  Johnston fully approved of Bragg's conduct of the Murfreesboro campaign, and recommended that Bragg be retained in command.  If Davis should remove Bragg, Johnston concluded, the job should not go to anyone 'in the army or engaged in this investigation'; that is, Johnston did not wish to take the helm for himself."

                              Kevin S. Coy.

                                

                              rhines@... wrote:

                              Johnston did want command I believe. Joe Johnston did not want people
                              to think he was using his position to take command. It was an honor
                              thing. He knew the need for change, but he also knew he would be the
                              one to take command. Johnston's honor meant all to him, which in my
                              opinion is what kept him in hot water with the hierarchy of the
                              Confederacy. To have spoken against Bragg under those circumstances was
                              below his idea of honor so in hopes that Davis was more interested in
                              winning the war, Johnstonfelt obligated to put Bragg in the best light.
                              Will look up what I have but I don't believe off hand that Johnston
                              gave Bragg a totally clean slate, but did infact invite someone from
                              Richmond to have a look for themselves. Will check
                               

                            • The Coys
                              In Steven E. Woodworth, Jefferson Davis and His Generals: The Failure of Confederate Command in the West, Lawrence, University of Kansas Press, 1990. On page
                              Message 14 of 16 , Jan 27, 2000
                              • 0 Attachment
                                    In Steven E. Woodworth, Jefferson Davis and His Generals: The Failure of Confederate Command in the West,  Lawrence, University of Kansas Press, 1990.

                                On page 196, "Johnston arrived at Tullahoma around the end of January and was impressed by what he found.  It was true that some of the generals were hostile to Bragg, particularly those whose failures at Murfreesboro Bragg had pointed out"

                                This then goes into several quotes by Cheatham and McCown stating they wouldn't fight for Bragg anymore. Then continues with:

                                    "A few other generals such as Polk and Hardee were also disgruntled, but Johnston found that the rank and file were mostly in good spirits and showed no signs of a lack of confidence in their commander.  He was also impressed with the condition of the army.  Thanks to Bragg's administrative genius, it was well clothed, healthy, and well disciplined. Moreover, [pg 197] by early February, it numbered more than the total taken into battle on the last day of 1862, thanks to Braggs efficiency in rounding up stragglers and enforcing the conscript act in Tennessee.  Johnston fully approved of Bragg's conduct of the Murfreesboro campaign, and recommended that Bragg be retained in command.  If Davis should remove Bragg, Johnston concluded, the job should not go to anyone 'in the army or engaged in this investigation'; that is, Johnston did not wish to take the helm for himself."

                                Kevin S. Coy.

                                  

                                rhines@... wrote:

                                Johnston did want command I believe. Joe Johnston did not want people
                                to think he was using his position to take command. It was an honor
                                thing. He knew the need for change, but he also knew he would be the
                                one to take command. Johnston's honor meant all to him, which in my
                                opinion is what kept him in hot water with the hierarchy of the
                                Confederacy. To have spoken against Bragg under those circumstances was
                                below his idea of honor so in hopes that Davis was more interested in
                                winning the war, Johnstonfelt obligated to put Bragg in the best light.
                                Will look up what I have but I don't believe off hand that Johnston
                                gave Bragg a totally clean slate, but did infact invite someone from
                                Richmond to have a look for themselves. Will check
                                 

                              • D. W. Plezia
                                I am ambivalent about General Bragg and his abilities. I am more interested in the careers of others. But, your comments here gave me a new insight.
                                Message 15 of 16 , Jan 31, 2000
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  I am ambivalent about General Bragg and his abilities. I am more
                                  interested in the careers of others. But, your comments here gave me a
                                  new insight. Probably not new to others, but I'm a little slow on the
                                  up-take at times.

                                  General Bragg's current reputation has been created in it's current
                                  form by "THE HISTORIANS".

                                  Certainly Johnston's report to Davis is more reflective of Bragg's
                                  ability than the interpretation's offered by "THE HISTORIANS", is it
                                  not? "THE HISTORIANS" and "Lost Cause" theorists have an agenda in
                                  painting characters one way or another. They perpetuate outright lies
                                  hoping to provoke you to buy books and advance their agenda!
                                  Additionally, I think these situations occur because supporters of the
                                  "Lost Cause" theory look for scapegoats or heros, seldom anything in
                                  between.

                                  Therefore, IMHO, Bragg is cast into the "scapegoat" group, while Lee is
                                  the beau ideal of "Lost Cause" defenders. So, if we seek knowledge of
                                  an individuals abilities and conduct, we must go to original sources
                                  and writings as far as possible, rather than depend on others
                                  interpretations. And if original sources are unavailable we should
                                  read more than a single opinion or book before we form an opinion? Of
                                  course, if you publish the opinion you have formed, in a chat room,
                                  discussion group or some other media, and your opinions differ from
                                  "Convention Wisdom" you may be labled "A Revisionist"!

                                  I read some material on Bragg in Connally's "Autumn of Glory" and I
                                  came away with an understanding that Bragg seemed to be going thru some
                                  mental problems at the time of Tullahoma and after Dalton. I read also
                                  that Bragg's wife was seriously ill with Typhoid, prior to Dalton. If
                                  your curious, read Connally's comments regarding Bragg's
                                  accomplishments on pp 277-8. He didn't do too bad!

                                  Don Plezia

                                  the coys <thecoy-@...> wrote:
                                  original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/civilwarwest/?start=551
                                  > In Steven E. Woodworth, Jefferson Davis and His Generals: The
                                  Failure of Confederate
                                  > Command in the West, Lawrence, University of Kansas Press, 1990.
                                  >
                                  > On page 196, "Johnston arrived at Tullahoma around the end of January
                                  and was impressed by
                                  > what he found. It was true that some of the generals were hostile to
                                  Bragg, particularly
                                  > those whose failures at Murfreesboro Bragg had pointed out"
                                  >
                                  > This then goes into several quotes by Cheatham and McCown stating
                                  they wouldn't fight for
                                  > Bragg anymore. Then continues with:
                                  >
                                  > "A few other generals such as Polk and Hardee were also
                                  disgruntled, but Johnston found
                                  > that the rank and file were mostly in good spirits and showed no
                                  signs of a lack of
                                  > confidence in their commander. He was also impressed with the
                                  condition of the army.
                                  > Thanks to Bragg's administrative genius, it was well clothed,
                                  healthy, and well
                                  > disciplined. Moreover, [pg 197] by early February, it numbered more
                                  than the total taken
                                  > into battle on the last day of 1862, thanks to Braggs efficiency in
                                  rounding up stragglers
                                  > and enforcing the conscript act in Tennessee. Johnston fully
                                  approved of Bragg's conduct
                                  > of the Murfreesboro campaign, and recommended that Bragg be retained
                                  in command. If Davis
                                  > should remove Bragg, Johnston concluded, the job should not go to
                                  anyone 'in the army or
                                  > engaged in this investigation'; that is, Johnston did not wish to
                                  take the helm for
                                  > himself."
                                  >
                                  > Kevin S. Coy.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > rhines@... wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > Johnston did want command I believe. Joe Johnston did not want
                                  people
                                  > > to think he was using his position to take command. It was an honor
                                  > > thing. He knew the need for change, but he also knew he would be the
                                  > > one to take command. Johnston's honor meant all to him, which in my
                                  > > opinion is what kept him in hot water with the hierarchy of the
                                  > > Confederacy. To have spoken against Bragg under those circumstances
                                  was
                                  > > below his idea of honor so in hopes that Davis was more interested
                                  in
                                  > > winning the war, Johnstonfelt obligated to put Bragg in the best
                                  light.
                                  > > Will look up what I have but I don't believe off hand that Johnston
                                  > > gave Bragg a totally clean slate, but did infact invite someone from
                                  > > Richmond to have a look for themselves. Will check
                                  > >
                                  >
                                • D. W. Plezia
                                  I am ambivalent about General Bragg and his abilities. I am more interested in the careers of others. But, your comments here gave me a new insight.
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Jan 31, 2000
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    I am ambivalent about General Bragg and his abilities. I am more
                                    interested in the careers of others. But, your comments here gave me a
                                    new insight. Probably not new to others, but I'm a little slow on the
                                    up-take at times.

                                    General Bragg's current reputation has been created in it's current
                                    form by "THE HISTORIANS".

                                    Certainly Johnston's report to Davis is more reflective of Bragg's
                                    ability than the interpretation's offered by "THE HISTORIANS", is it
                                    not? "THE HISTORIANS" and "Lost Cause" theorists have an agenda in
                                    painting characters one way or another. They perpetuate outright lies
                                    hoping to provoke you to buy books and advance their agenda!
                                    Additionally, I think these situations occur because supporters of the
                                    "Lost Cause" theory look for scapegoats or heros, seldom anything in
                                    between.

                                    Therefore, IMHO, Bragg is cast into the "scapegoat" group, while Lee is
                                    the beau ideal of "Lost Cause" defenders. So, if we seek knowledge of
                                    an individuals abilities and conduct, we must go to original sources
                                    and writings as far as possible, rather than depend on others
                                    interpretations. And if original sources are unavailable we should
                                    read more than a single opinion or book before we form an opinion? Of
                                    course, if you publish the opinion you have formed, in a chat room,
                                    discussion group or some other media, and your opinions differ from
                                    "Convention Wisdom" you may be labled "A Revisionist"!

                                    I read some material on Bragg in Connally's "Autumn of Glory" and I
                                    came away with an understanding that Bragg seemed to be going thru some
                                    mental problems at the time of Tullahoma and after Dalton. I read also
                                    that Bragg's wife was seriously ill with Typhoid, prior to Dalton. If
                                    your curious, read Connally's comments regarding Bragg's
                                    accomplishments on pp 277-8. He didn't do too bad!

                                    Don Plezia

                                    the coys <thecoy-@...> wrote:
                                    original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/civilwarwest/?start=551
                                    > In Steven E. Woodworth, Jefferson Davis and His Generals: The
                                    Failure of Confederate
                                    > Command in the West, Lawrence, University of Kansas Press, 1990.
                                    >
                                    > On page 196, "Johnston arrived at Tullahoma around the end of January
                                    and was impressed by
                                    > what he found. It was true that some of the generals were hostile to
                                    Bragg, particularly
                                    > those whose failures at Murfreesboro Bragg had pointed out"
                                    >
                                    > This then goes into several quotes by Cheatham and McCown stating
                                    they wouldn't fight for
                                    > Bragg anymore. Then continues with:
                                    >
                                    > "A few other generals such as Polk and Hardee were also
                                    disgruntled, but Johnston found
                                    > that the rank and file were mostly in good spirits and showed no
                                    signs of a lack of
                                    > confidence in their commander. He was also impressed with the
                                    condition of the army.
                                    > Thanks to Bragg's administrative genius, it was well clothed,
                                    healthy, and well
                                    > disciplined. Moreover, [pg 197] by early February, it numbered more
                                    than the total taken
                                    > into battle on the last day of 1862, thanks to Braggs efficiency in
                                    rounding up stragglers
                                    > and enforcing the conscript act in Tennessee. Johnston fully
                                    approved of Bragg's conduct
                                    > of the Murfreesboro campaign, and recommended that Bragg be retained
                                    in command. If Davis
                                    > should remove Bragg, Johnston concluded, the job should not go to
                                    anyone 'in the army or
                                    > engaged in this investigation'; that is, Johnston did not wish to
                                    take the helm for
                                    > himself."
                                    >
                                    > Kevin S. Coy.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > rhines@... wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > Johnston did want command I believe. Joe Johnston did not want
                                    people
                                    > > to think he was using his position to take command. It was an honor
                                    > > thing. He knew the need for change, but he also knew he would be the
                                    > > one to take command. Johnston's honor meant all to him, which in my
                                    > > opinion is what kept him in hot water with the hierarchy of the
                                    > > Confederacy. To have spoken against Bragg under those circumstances
                                    was
                                    > > below his idea of honor so in hopes that Davis was more interested
                                    in
                                    > > winning the war, Johnstonfelt obligated to put Bragg in the best
                                    light.
                                    > > Will look up what I have but I don't believe off hand that Johnston
                                    > > gave Bragg a totally clean slate, but did infact invite someone from
                                    > > Richmond to have a look for themselves. Will check
                                    > >
                                    >
                                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.