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Re: [civilwarwest] Retreat and Fall Back

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  • Bob Huddleston
    Only to Grant -- never to ol Slow Trot! : ) Take care, Bob Judy and Bob Huddleston 10643 Sperry Street Northglenn, CO 80234-3612 Huddleston.r@comcast.net
    Message 1 of 30 , Dec 20, 2010
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      Only to Grant -- never to ol' Slow Trot! :>)

      Take care,

      Bob

      Judy and Bob Huddleston
      10643 Sperry Street
      Northglenn, CO 80234-3612
      Huddleston.r@...

      “There must be more historians of the Civil War than there were generals fighting it, and, of the two groups, the historians are the more belligerent.” David Donald, “Refighting the Civil War,” Lincoln Reconsidered (New York, 1956), 82.


      On 12/20/2010 1:50 PM, Patricia Swan wrote:
      >
      > It may all be a matter of semantics, but it seems to me that this being
      > the anniversary of Confederate General Earl Van Dorn's raid on Grant's
      > supply base at Holly Springs, it might be a timely illustration. After
      > the raid, Grant could no longer sustain his troops, his supplies at
      > Holly Springs having been largely destroyed and the railroad down to
      > Mississippi having been disrupted. One could say, and some do write,
      > that Grant retreated. Others say that he was "forced to fall back" to
      > Tennessee. Do these terms apply equally well to what Grant did, or is
      > one or the other more apt?
      >
      >
    • Bob Taubman
      You can have your own opinion, but you can t have your own facts. , Senator Patrick Moynahan (the wording may not be exact, but the meaning is) By making
      Message 2 of 30 , Dec 20, 2010
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        "You can have your own opinion, but you can't have your own facts.", Senator Patrick Moynahan (the wording may not be exact, but the meaning is)
         
        By making misleading statements you diminish your credibility.  There was no retreat, there was no being forced to fall back.  The situation Ms. Swan describes is not in any way like Thomas at Mill Springs.  There was no longer an enemy in front of him nor was there an iminent threat, he was not lacking arms or materiel.    If you can show what factors put Thomas in a position that he was "forced to fall back" or "retreat", then please, present them.
        But don't give us that old song and dance "Only to Grant - never to ol'Slow Trot!  Grant's situation was entirely different all factors considered.  
         
        Your dog ain't hunting. 


        From: Bob Huddleston <huddleston.r@...>
        To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Mon, December 20, 2010 5:00:22 PM
        Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Retreat and Fall Back

        Only to Grant -- never to ol' Slow Trot! :>)

        Take care,

        Bob

        Judy and Bob Huddleston
        10643 Sperry Street
        Northglenn, CO  80234-3612
        Huddleston.r@...

        “There must be more historians of the Civil War than there were generals fighting it, and, of the two groups, the historians are the more belligerent.” David Donald, “Refighting the Civil War,” Lincoln Reconsidered (New York, 1956), 82.


        On 12/20/2010 1:50 PM, Patricia Swan wrote:
        >
        > It may all be a matter of semantics, but it seems to me that this being
        > the anniversary of Confederate General Earl Van Dorn's raid on Grant's
        > supply base at Holly Springs, it might be a timely illustration. After
        > the raid, Grant could no longer sustain his troops, his supplies at
        > Holly Springs having been largely destroyed and the railroad down to
        > Mississippi having been disrupted. One could say, and some do write,
        > that Grant retreated. Others say that he was "forced to fall back" to
        > Tennessee. Do these terms apply equally well to what Grant did, or is
        > one or the other more apt?
        >
        >


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      • keeno2@aol.com
        Agreed that it s semantics, Patricia. One might fall back to consolidate. One might run like a rabbit and call it a strategic withdrawal. In my limited memory,
        Message 3 of 30 , Dec 21, 2010
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          Agreed that it's semantics, Patricia. One might fall back to consolidate. One might run like a rabbit and call it a strategic withdrawal.
           
          In my limited memory, the Holly Springs episode was the only time Grant ever "retreated."



          -----Original Message-----
          From: Patricia Swan <pbswan@...>
          To: civilwarwest <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Mon, Dec 20, 2010 2:50 pm
          Subject: [civilwarwest] Retreat and Fall Back

          It may all be a matter of semantics, but it seems to me that this being 
          the anniversary of Confederate General Earl Van Dorn's raid on Grant's 
          supply base at Holly Springs, it might be a timely illustration.  After 
          the raid, Grant could no longer sustain his troops, his supplies at 
          Holly Springs having been largely destroyed and the railroad down to 
          Mississippi having been disrupted.  One could say, and some do write, 
          that Grant retreated. Others say that he was "forced to fall back" to 
          Tennessee.  Do these terms apply equally well to what Grant did, or is 
          one or the other more apt?
          
          
          ------------------------------------
          
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        • Bob Huddleston
          Having done some reading in sources ranging from an 1868 campaign biography of USG to Brooks Simpson, it does appear that Grant never retreated, especially
          Message 4 of 30 , Dec 21, 2010
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            Having done some reading in sources ranging from an 1868 campaign
            biography of USG to Brooks Simpson, it does appear that Grant never
            retreated, especially after the Holly Springs raid..... :>)

            So I am willing to stipulate that Pap Thomas did not retreat after Mill
            Springs. He did fall back, make a strategic withdrawal, etc. What he did
            not do was pursue the Rebels. Double :>)

            Take care,

            Bob

            Judy and Bob Huddleston
            10643 Sperry Street
            Northglenn, CO 80234-3612
            Huddleston.r@...

            “There must be more historians of the Civil War than there were generals
            fighting it, and, of the two groups, the historians are the more
            belligerent.” David Donald, “Refighting the Civil War,” Lincoln
            Reconsidered (New York, 1956), 82.

            On 12/21/2010 2:13 PM, keeno2@... wrote:
            > Agreed that it's semantics, Patricia. One might fall back to
            > consolidate. One might run like a rabbit and call it a strategic withdrawal.
            > In my limited memory, the Holly Springs episode was the only time Grant
            > ever "retreated."
            >
            >
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Patricia Swan <pbswan@...>
            > To: civilwarwest <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Mon, Dec 20, 2010 2:50 pm
            > Subject: [civilwarwest] Retreat and Fall Back
            >
            > It may all be a matter of semantics, but it seems to me that this being
            > the anniversary of Confederate General Earl Van Dorn's raid on Grant's
            > supply base at Holly Springs, it might be a timely illustration. After
            > the raid, Grant could no longer sustain his troops, his supplies at
            > Holly Springs having been largely destroyed and the railroad down to
            > Mississippi having been disrupted. One could say, and some do write,
            > that Grant retreated. Others say that he was "forced to fall back" to
            > Tennessee. Do these terms apply equally well to what Grant did, or is
            > one or the other more apt?
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • Bob Huddleston
            The Rebel units at Mill Springs were: 1st Bde: 15 Miss 19 TN 20 TN 25 TN 2nd Bde 16 AL 17 TN 29 TN All, except the 17th and 29th Tennessee infantries were at
            Message 5 of 30 , Dec 21, 2010
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              The Rebel units at Mill Springs were:

              1st Bde:
              15 Miss
              19 TN
              20 TN
              25 TN

              2nd Bde
              16 AL
              17 TN
              29 TN

              All, except the 17th and 29th Tennessee infantries were at Shiloh. And
              those two had a war-long record at other battles.

              Destroyed? Hardly.

              Take care,

              Bob

              Judy and Bob Huddleston
              10643 Sperry Street
              Northglenn, CO 80234-3612
              Huddleston.r@...

              “There must be more historians of the Civil War than there were generals
              fighting it, and, of the two groups, the historians are the more
              belligerent.” David Donald, “Refighting the Civil War,” Lincoln
              Reconsidered (New York, 1956), 82.
            • William Nolan
              Neither term applies to Grant in January of 1865. He had lost two supply lines and had to regroup until he could resupply. In turn he told his forces to
              Message 6 of 30 , Dec 21, 2010
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                Neither term applies to Grant in January of 1865. He had lost two supply lines and had to regroup until he could resupply. In turn he told his forces to forage. A trick they learned and used for the rest of the War, much to the sorrow of the South.

                Grant was not forced to fall back under pressure. He could have continued toward Vicksburg. He was not retreating from great loss of force or because he feared the enemy. He wanted to capture Vicksburg under his terms.

                Though I would have preferred that Pemberton had moved north at that time, he was not ready or able. Van Dorn's Cavalry action was a measure that worked and was very successful, but which History has lost because the South lost the War.  The question might be, How many Union Soldiers died because the war was prolonged, and how close did the South come to winning had the war ended because of the continued loss of Union Soldiers? 

                From The Texas Cavalry Brigade under Van Dorn.


                From: Bob Huddleston <huddleston.r@...>
                To: Civil War West <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Tue, December 21, 2010 9:31:53 PM
                Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Retreat and Fall Back

                Having done some reading in sources ranging from an 1868 campaign
                biography of USG to Brooks Simpson, it does appear that Grant never
                retreated, especially after the Holly Springs raid..... :>)

                So I am willing to stipulate that Pap Thomas did not retreat after Mill
                Springs. He did fall back, make a strategic withdrawal, etc. What he did
                not do was pursue the Rebels. Double :>)

                Take care,

                Bob

                Judy and Bob Huddleston
                10643 Sperry Street
                Northglenn, CO  80234-3612
                Huddleston.r@...

                “There must be more historians of the Civil War than there were generals
                fighting it, and, of the two groups, the historians are the more
                belligerent.” David Donald, “Refighting the Civil War,” Lincoln
                Reconsidered (New York, 1956), 82.

                On 12/21/2010 2:13 PM, keeno2@... wrote:
                > Agreed that it's semantics, Patricia. One might fall back to
                > consolidate. One might run like a rabbit and call it a strategic withdrawal.
                > In my limited memory, the Holly Springs episode was the only time Grant
                > ever "retreated."
                >
                >
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Patricia Swan <pbswan@...>
                > To: civilwarwest <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Mon, Dec 20, 2010 2:50 pm
                > Subject: [civilwarwest] Retreat and Fall Back
                >
                > It may all be a matter of semantics, but it seems to me that this being
                > the anniversary of Confederate General Earl Van Dorn's raid on
                Grant's
                > supply base at Holly Springs, it might be a timely illustration.  After
                > the raid, Grant could no longer sustain his troops, his supplies at
                > Holly Springs having been largely destroyed and the railroad down to
                > Mississippi having been disrupted.  One could say, and some do write,
                > that Grant retreated. Others say that he was "forced to fall back" to
                > Tennessee.  Do these terms apply equally well to what Grant did, or is
                > one or the other more apt?
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >


                ------------------------------------

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              • Bob Taubman
                What is a strategic withdrawal ?  The battle is over, the enemy is routed.  What does any army victorous army do in those circumstances.  It leaves the
                Message 7 of 30 , Dec 22, 2010
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                  What is a "strategic withdrawal"?  The battle is over, the enemy is routed.  What does any army victorous army do in those circumstances.  It leaves the battlefield.  It isn't a "strategic withdrawl:".  They just left. 
                   
                  Wow, and you are willing to stipulate that Thomas did not retreat.  Good on you.  I'm sure that must be the Christmas spirit.


                  From: Bob Huddleston <huddleston.r@...>
                  To: Civil War West <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Tue, December 21, 2010 10:31:53 PM
                  Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Retreat and Fall Back

                  Having done some reading in sources ranging from an 1868 campaign
                  biography of USG to Brooks Simpson, it does appear that Grant never
                  retreated, especially after the Holly Springs raid..... :>)

                  So I am willing to stipulate that Pap Thomas did not retreat after Mill
                  Springs. He did fall back, make a strategic withdrawal, etc. What he did
                  not do was pursue the Rebels. Double :>)

                  Take care,

                  Bob

                  Judy and Bob Huddleston
                  10643 Sperry Street
                  Northglenn, CO  80234-3612
                  Huddleston.r@...

                  “There must be more historians of the Civil War than there were generals
                  fighting it, and, of the two groups, the historians are the more
                  belligerent.” David Donald, “Refighting the Civil War,” Lincoln
                  Reconsidered (New York, 1956), 82.

                  On 12/21/2010 2:13 PM, keeno2@... wrote:
                  > Agreed that it's semantics, Patricia. One might fall back to
                  > consolidate. One might run like a rabbit and call it a strategic withdrawal.
                  > In my limited memory, the Holly Springs episode was the only time Grant
                  > ever "retreated."
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: Patricia Swan <pbswan@...>
                  > To: civilwarwest <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Mon, Dec 20, 2010 2:50 pm
                  > Subject: [civilwarwest] Retreat and Fall Back
                  >
                  > It may all be a matter of semantics, but it seems to me that this being
                  > the anniversary of Confederate General Earl Van Dorn's raid on Grant's
                  > supply base at Holly Springs, it might be a timely illustration.  After
                  > the raid, Grant could no longer sustain his troops, his supplies at
                  > Holly Springs having been largely destroyed and the railroad down to
                  > Mississippi having been disrupted.  One could say, and some do write,
                  > that Grant retreated. Others say that he was "forced to fall back" to
                  > Tennessee.  Do these terms apply equally well to what Grant did, or is
                  > one or the other more apt?
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  ------------------------------------

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                • DORR64OVI@aol.com
                  How does one characterize what Schofield did at Franklin? The Federal Army defended itself against a massive enemy assault that failed to break the
                  Message 8 of 30 , Dec 22, 2010
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                    How does one characterize what Schofield did at Franklin?   The Federal Army defended itself against a massive enemy assault that failed to break the defenders lines.  After the battle, the Federal Army left Franklin and made its way to Nashville which was its objective before the battle.  Its that a retreat?  Strategic withdrawal?  Redployment?  The next morning Hood sent a classic spin doctored report to Richmond that he was in possession of the battlefield and downplayed his devastating losses.
                     
                    Kent Dorr
                     
                    In a message dated 12/22/2010 6:47:27 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, rtaubman@... writes:
                    What is a "strategic withdrawal"?  The battle is over, the enemy is routed.  What does any army victorous army do in those circumstances.  It leaves the battlefield.  It isn't a "strategic withdrawl:".  They just left. 
                  • Bob Taubman
                    It could be two of the three;  retreat and strategic withdrawal.  ________________________________ From: DORR64OVI@aol.com To:
                    Message 9 of 30 , Dec 22, 2010
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                      It could be two of the three;  retreat and strategic withdrawal. 


                      From: "DORR64OVI@..." <DORR64OVI@...>
                      To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Wed, December 22, 2010 9:21:35 AM
                      Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Retreat and Fall Back



                      How does one characterize what Schofield did at Franklin?   The Federal Army defended itself against a massive enemy assault that failed to break the defenders lines.  After the battle, the Federal Army left Franklin and made its way to Nashville which was its objective before the battle.  Its that a retreat?  Strategic withdrawal?  Redployment?  The next morning Hood sent a classic spin doctored report to Richmond that he was in possession of the battlefield and downplayed his devastating losses.
                       
                      Kent Dorr
                       
                      In a message dated 12/22/2010 6:47:27 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, rtaubman@... writes:
                      What is a "strategic withdrawal"?  The battle is over, the enemy is routed.  What does any army victorous army do in those circumstances.  It leaves the battlefield.  It isn't a "strategic withdrawl:".  They just left. 


                    • hank9174
                      What are Schofield s orders? IIRC they are to join Thomas - nothing more or less. Hood strives to prevent this and defeat Schofield, and then Thomas, in
                      Message 10 of 30 , Dec 23, 2010
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                        What are Schofield's orders?

                        IIRC they are to join Thomas - nothing more or less. Hood strives to prevent this and defeat Schofield, and then Thomas, in detail. Whether it is sensible to fail in the former, at Franklin, and still attempt the latter, at Nashville, is questionable.

                        Underlying all orders, is the implication to thwart the will of the enemy. Schofield also accomplishes this...


                        HankC

                        --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, Bob Taubman <rtaubman@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > It could be two of the three;  retreat and strategic withdrawal. 
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ________________________________
                        > From: "DORR64OVI@..." <DORR64OVI@...>
                        > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Wed, December 22, 2010 9:21:35 AM
                        > Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Retreat and Fall Back
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > How does one characterize what Schofield did at Franklin?   The Federal Army
                        > defended itself against a massive enemy assault that failed to break the
                        > defenders lines.  After the battle, the Federal Army left Franklin and made its
                        > way to Nashville which was its objective before the battle.  Its that a
                        > retreat?  Strategic withdrawal?  Redployment?  The next morning Hood sent a
                        > classic spin doctored report to Richmond that he was in possession of the
                        > battlefield and downplayed his devastating losses.
                        >
                        > Kent Dorr
                        >
                        > In a message dated 12/22/2010 6:47:27 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                        > rtaubman@... writes:
                        > What is a "strategic withdrawal"?  The battle is over, the enemy is routed. 
                        > What does any army victorous army do in those circumstances.  It leaves the
                        > battlefield.  It isn't a "strategic withdrawl:".  They just left. 
                        >
                      • hank9174
                        Good point. If you accomplish your objective and use the same road toleave, it s not a retreat ;)
                        Message 11 of 30 , Dec 23, 2010
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                          Good point.

                          If you accomplish your objective and use the same road toleave, it's not a retreat ;)

                          --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, Bob Taubman <rtaubman@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > What is a "strategic withdrawal"?  The battle is over, the enemy is routed. 
                          > What does any army victorous army do in those circumstances.  It leaves the
                          > battlefield.  It isn't a "strategic withdrawl:".  They just left. 
                          >
                          >
                          > Wow, and you are willing to stipulate that Thomas did not retreat.  Good on
                          > you.  I'm sure that must be the Christmas spirit.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ________________________________
                          > From: Bob Huddleston <huddleston.r@...>
                          > To: Civil War West <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
                          > Sent: Tue, December 21, 2010 10:31:53 PM
                          > Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Retreat and Fall Back
                          >
                          > Having done some reading in sources ranging from an 1868 campaign
                          > biography of USG to Brooks Simpson, it does appear that Grant never
                          > retreated, especially after the Holly Springs raid..... :>)
                          >
                          > So I am willing to stipulate that Pap Thomas did not retreat after Mill
                          > Springs. He did fall back, make a strategic withdrawal, etc. What he did
                          > not do was pursue the Rebels. Double :>)
                          >
                          > Take care,
                          >
                          > Bob
                          >
                          > Judy and Bob Huddleston
                          > 10643 Sperry Street
                          > Northglenn, CO  80234-3612
                          > Huddleston.r@...
                          >
                          > “There must be more historians of the Civil War than there were generals
                          > fighting it, and, of the two groups, the historians are the more
                          > belligerent.” David Donald, “Refighting the Civil War,” Lincoln
                          > Reconsidered (New York, 1956), 82.
                          >
                          > On 12/21/2010 2:13 PM, keeno2@... wrote:
                          > > Agreed that it's semantics, Patricia. One might fall back to
                          > > consolidate. One might run like a rabbit and call it a strategic withdrawal.
                          > > In my limited memory, the Holly Springs episode was the only time Grant
                          > > ever "retreated."
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > -----Original Message-----
                          > > From: Patricia Swan <pbswan@...>
                          > > To: civilwarwest <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
                          > > Sent: Mon, Dec 20, 2010 2:50 pm
                          > > Subject: [civilwarwest] Retreat and Fall Back
                          > >
                          > > It may all be a matter of semantics, but it seems to me that this being
                          > > the anniversary of Confederate General Earl Van Dorn's raid on Grant's
                          > > supply base at Holly Springs, it might be a timely illustration.  After
                          > > the raid, Grant could no longer sustain his troops, his supplies at
                          > > Holly Springs having been largely destroyed and the railroad down to
                          > > Mississippi having been disrupted.  One could say, and some do write,
                          > > that Grant retreated. Others say that he was "forced to fall back" to
                          > > Tennessee.  Do these terms apply equally well to what Grant did, or is
                          > > one or the other more apt?
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > ------------------------------------
                          > >
                          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          >
                        • keeno2@aol.com
                          Grant was not forced to fall back under pressure. He could have continued toward Vicksburg. He was not retreating from great loss of force or because he feared
                          Message 12 of 30 , Dec 23, 2010
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                            Grant was not forced to fall back under pressure. He could have continued toward Vicksburg. He was not retreating from great loss of force or because he feared the enemy. He wanted to capture Vicksburg under his terms.

                             
                            Mostly  agree. The Rebs only indirectly forced the fall-back. He couldn't very well continue to Vicksburg without the empty, Holly Springs life-line.
                             
                            Schofield made a strategic withdrawal from Franklin. He just wanted to get to Nashville and didn't want another pointless fight there. Much the same as Lee did at Sharpsburg.
                             
                            Thomas drove the rebs from Nancy to the crossing at Mill Springs. (They were retreating.) He gave up the chace when the Rebs got across the river. Granted, he might have been more excited about destroying the Rebs, but I'm sure he had his reasons to regroup.

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: William Nolan <sixtxcavrgtcsa@...>
                            To: civilwarwest <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Tue, Dec 21, 2010 11:14 pm
                            Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Retreat and Fall Back



                            Neither term applies to Grant in January of 1865. He had lost two supply lines and had to regroup until he could resupply. In turn he told his forces to forage. A trick they learned and used for the rest of the War, much to the sorrow of the South.

                            Grant was not forced to fall back under pressure. He could have continued toward Vicksburg. He was not retreating from great loss of force or because he feared the enemy. He wanted to capture Vicksburg under his terms.

                            Though I would have preferred that Pemberton had moved north at that time, he was not ready or able. Van Dorn's Cavalry action was a measure that worked and was very successful, but which History has lost because the South lost the War.  The question might be, How many Union Soldiers died because the war was prolonged, and how close did the South come to winning had the war ended because of the continued loss of Union Soldiers? 

                            From The Texas Cavalry Brigade under Van Dorn.


                            From: Bob Huddleston <huddleston.r@...>
                            To: Civil War West <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Tue, December 21, 2010 9:31:53 PM
                            Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Retreat and Fall Back

                            Having done some reading in sources ranging from an 1868 campaign
                            biography of USG to Brooks Simpson, it does appear that Grant never
                            retreated, especially after the Holly Springs raid..... :>)

                            So I am willing to stipulate that Pap Thomas did not retreat after Mill
                            Springs. He did fall back, make a strategic withdrawal, etc. What he did
                            not do was pursue the Rebels. Double :>)

                            Take care,

                            Bob

                            Judy and Bob Huddleston
                            10643 Sperry Street
                            Northglenn, CO  80234-3612
                            Huddleston.r@...

                            “There must be more historians of the Civil War than there were generals
                            fighting it, and, of the two groups, the historians are the more
                            belligerent.” David Donald, “Refighting the Civil War,” Lincoln
                            Reconsidered (New York, 1956), 82.

                            On 12/21/2010 2:13 PM, keeno2@... wrote:
                            > Agreed that it's semantics, Patricia. One might fall back to
                            > consolidate. One might run like a rabbit and call it a strategic withdrawal.
                            > In my limited memory, the Holly Springs episode was the only time Grant
                            > ever "retreated."
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: Patricia Swan <pbswan@...>
                            > To: civilwarwest <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
                            > Sent: Mon, Dec 20, 2010 2:50 pm
                            > Subject: [civilwarwest] Retreat and Fall Back
                            >
                            > It may all be a matter of semantics, but it seems to me that this being
                            > the anniversary of Confederate General Earl Van Dorn's raid on Grant's
                            > supply base at Holly Springs, it might be a timely illustration.  After
                            > the raid, Grant could no longer sustain his troops, his supplies at
                            > Holly Springs having been largely destroyed and the railroad down to
                            > Mississippi having been disrupted.  One could say, and some do write,
                            > that Grant retreated. Others say that he was "forced to fall back" to
                            > Tennessee.  Do these terms apply equally well to what Grant did, or is
                            > one or the other more apt?
                            >
                            >
                            > ------------------------------------
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >


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                          • Ronald black
                            If this topic has become about Grant retreating, there is nothing more absurd. It was not in his style to withdraw from the presence of the enemy. He fought
                            Message 13 of 30 , Dec 23, 2010
                            • 0 Attachment
                              
                              If this topic has become about Grant retreating, there is nothing more absurd.  It was not in his style to withdraw from the presence of the enemy.  He fought on at Ft. Donelson, Shiloh, the long and many attempts of the Vicksburg campaign, and Chattanooga and Missionary Ridge.  What can I say about his tenancity displayed by him in the 1864 Overland Campaign.  Most of the important union victories happened when Grant was in command.  True, Holly Springs was a successful confederate stroke but it did nothing but delay Grants continued advances on Vicksburg.  It did not change Grant's objective, only how he got there.  Grant did not retreat from Holly Springs but, yes he did change his base of supply and axis of advance.  When asked to remove Grant from command in an earlier time, President Lincoln said "No, I can't afford to do that.  He fights".
                              Ron
                               
                              Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 10:23 AM
                              Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Retreat and Fall Back

                               


                              Grant was not forced to fall back under pressure. He could have continued toward Vicksburg. He was not retreating from great loss of force or because he feared the enemy. He wanted to capture Vicksburg under his terms.

                               
                              Mostly  agree. The Rebs only indirectly forced the fall-back. He couldn't very well continue to Vicksburg without the empty, Holly Springs life-line.
                               
                              Schofield made a strategic withdrawal from Franklin. He just wanted to get to Nashville and didn't want another pointless fight there. Much the same as Lee did at Sharpsburg.
                               
                              Thomas drove the rebs from Nancy to the crossing at Mill Springs. (They were retreating.) He gave up the chace when the Rebs got across the river.. Granted, he might have been more excited about destroying the Rebs, but I'm sure he had his reasons to regroup.

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: William Nolan <sixtxcavrgtcsa@...>
                              To: civilwarwest <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Tue, Dec 21, 2010 11:14 pm
                              Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Retreat and Fall Back



                              Neither term applies to Grant in January of 1865. He had lost two supply lines and had to regroup until he could resupply. In turn he told his forces to forage. A trick they learned and used for the rest of the War, much to the sorrow of the South.

                              Grant was not forced to fall back under pressure. He could have continued toward Vicksburg. He was not retreating from great loss of force or because he feared the enemy. He wanted to capture Vicksburg under his terms.

                              Though I would have preferred that Pemberton had moved north at that time, he was not ready or able. Van Dorn's Cavalry action was a measure that worked and was very successful, but which History has lost because the South lost the War.  The question might be, How many Union Soldiers died because the war was prolonged, and how close did the South come to winning had the war ended because of the continued loss of Union Soldiers? 

                              From The Texas Cavalry Brigade under Van Dorn.


                              From: Bob Huddleston <huddleston.r@...>
                              To: Civil War West <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Tue, December 21, 2010 9:31:53 PM
                              Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Retreat and Fall Back

                              Having done some reading in sources ranging from an 1868 campaign
                              biography of USG to Brooks Simpson, it does appear that Grant never
                              retreated, especially after the Holly Springs raid..... :>)

                              So I am willing to stipulate that Pap Thomas did not retreat after Mill
                              Springs. He did fall back, make a strategic withdrawal, etc. What he did
                              not do was pursue the Rebels. Double :>)

                              Take care,

                              Bob

                              Judy and Bob Huddleston
                              10643 Sperry Street
                              Northglenn, CO  80234-3612
                              Huddleston.r@...

                              “There must be more historians of the Civil War than there were generals
                              fighting it, and, of the two groups, the historians are the more
                              belligerent.” David Donald, “Refighting the Civil War,” Lincoln
                              Reconsidered (New York, 1956), 82.

                              On 12/21/2010 2:13 PM, keeno2@... wrote:
                              > Agreed that it's semantics, Patricia. One might fall back to
                              > consolidate. One might run like a rabbit and call it a strategic withdrawal.
                              > In my limited memory, the Holly Springs episode was the only time Grant
                              > ever "retreated."
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: Patricia Swan <pbswan@...>
                              > To: civilwarwest <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
                              > Sent: Mon, Dec 20, 2010 2:50 pm
                              > Subject: [civilwarwest] Retreat and Fall Back
                              >
                              > It may all be a matter of semantics, but it seems to me that this being
                              > the anniversary of Confederate General Earl Van Dorn's raid on Grant's
                              > supply base at Holly Springs, it might be a timely illustration.  After
                              > the raid, Grant could no longer sustain his troops, his supplies at
                              > Holly Springs having been largely destroyed and the railroad down to
                              > Mississippi having been disrupted.  One could say, and some do write,
                              > that Grant retreated. Others say that he was "forced to fall back" to
                              > Tennessee.  Do these terms apply equally well to what Grant did, or is
                              > one or the other more apt?
                              >
                              >
                              > ------------------------------------
                              >
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >


                              ------------------------------------

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                            • hank9174
                              ... Not a good comparison. Lee s will was thwarted on Antietam creek. I d not go so far as to say Schofield imposed his on Hood, but it was pretty close...
                              Message 14 of 30 , Dec 23, 2010
                              • 0 Attachment
                                >
                                > Schofield made a strategic withdrawal from Franklin. He just wanted to get to Nashville and didn't want another pointless fight there. Much the same as Lee did at Sharpsburg.
                                >

                                Not a good comparison.

                                Lee's will was thwarted on Antietam creek.

                                I'd not go so far as to say Schofield imposed his on Hood, but it was pretty close...


                                HankC
                              • jlawrence@kc.rr.com
                                .  True, Holly Springs was a successful confederate stroke but it did nothing but delay Grants continued advances on Vicksburg.  It did not change Grant s
                                Message 15 of 30 , Dec 23, 2010
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  .  True, Holly Springs was a successful confederate stroke but it did nothing but delay Grants continued advances on Vicksburg.  It did not change Grant's objective, only how he got there.  Grant did not retreat from Holly Springs but, yes he did change his base of supply and axis of advance. 

                                  Hello.

                                  I am not sure Grant ever retreated.
                                  The Holly Springs thing was one of what, six failed attempts to seize Vicksburg? With his supply line cut and the railroads being torn up, he just retrenched and looked for another way in.
                                  What is always overlooked is what Grant learned-that body of troops, cut off in hostile territorty but previously unravaged by war, can support a march or maneuver by foraging the enemy for provender.
                                  And he did it. And he learned.
                                  The next year, in fear Napoleonic in execution of not in scope, using a grand calvary raid as a diversion, he conducted a successful river crossing below the city.
                                  He cut himself off and, using the foraging tactic learned the year before, he drove into the state ma took the capital
                                  This time it was Grant tearing up railroads and burning enemy assets. Securing his rear, he marched/fought his way back to Vicksburg, eventually securing it's fall.
                                  The winter next, Grant, Sherman and Lincoln devised a plan that, using the same tactic, would gut the south in the east.
                                  retreat hell

                                  Regards,
                                  Jack


                                  Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
                                • keeno2@aol.com
                                  Didn t say re retreated. He just had to regroup to keep going forward. I generally refer to the Holly Springs incident as the only time Grant ever backtracked.
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Dec 24, 2010
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                                    Didn't say re retreated. He just had to regroup to keep going forward. I generally refer to the Holly Springs incident as the only time Grant ever backtracked. I don't know how else to describe it. He was doing a land-based advance (taking into account that he had planned to join Sherman's river-based movement). Without that backup of supply, it would be quite silly to continue with the plan. So, in Grant fashion, he went to another plan.
                                     
                                    Now, in my vocabulary, I use backtracked. I didn't say retreat, strategic withdrawal or fall back.
                                     
                                    Ole



                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: Ronald black <rblack0981@...>
                                    To: civilwarwest <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Thu, Dec 23, 2010 10:45 am
                                    Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Retreat and Fall Back

                                    

                                    If this topic has become about Grant retreating, there is nothing more absurd.  It was not in his style to withdraw from the presence of the enemy.  He fought on at Ft. Donelson, Shiloh, the long and many attempts of the Vicksburg campaign, and Chattanooga and Missionary Ridge.  What can I say about his tenancity displayed by him in the 1864 Overland Campaign.  Most of the important union victories happened when Grant was in command.  True, Holly Springs was a successful confederate stroke but it did nothing but delay Grants continued advances on Vicksburg.  It did not change Grant's objective, only how he got there.  Grant did not retreat from Holly Springs but, yes he did change his base of supply and axis of advance.  When asked to remove Grant from command in an earlier time, President Lincoln said "No, I can't afford to do that.  He fights".
                                    Ron
                                     
                                    Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 10:23 AM
                                    Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Retreat and Fall Back

                                     

                                    Grant was not forced to fall back under pressure. He could have continued toward Vicksburg. He was not retreating from great loss of force or because he feared the enemy. He wanted to capture Vicksburg under his terms.

                                     
                                    Mostly  agree. The Rebs only indirectly forced the fall-back. He couldn't very well continue to Vicksburg without the empty, Holly Springs life-line.
                                     
                                    Schofield made a strategic withdrawal from Franklin. He just wanted to get to Nashville and didn't want another pointless fight there. Much the same as Lee did at Sharpsburg.
                                     
                                    Thomas drove the rebs from Nancy to the crossing at Mill Springs. (They were retreating.) He gave up the chace when the Rebs got across the river.. Granted, he might have been more excited about destroying the Rebs, but I'm sure he had his reasons to regroup.

                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: William Nolan <sixtxcavrgtcsa@...>
                                    To: civilwarwest <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Tue, Dec 21, 2010 11:14 pm
                                    Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Retreat and Fall Back



                                    Neither term applies to Grant in January of 1865. He had lost two supply lines and had to regroup until he could resupply. In turn he told his forces to forage. A trick they learned and used for the rest of the War, much to the sorrow of the South.

                                    Grant was not forced to fall back under pressure. He could have continued toward Vicksburg. He was not retreating from great loss of force or because he feared the enemy. He wanted to capture Vicksburg under his terms.

                                    Though I would have preferred that Pemberton had moved north at that time, he was not ready or able. Van Dorn's Cavalry action was a measure that worked and was very successful, but which History has lost because the South lost the War.  The question might be, How many Union Soldiers died because the war was prolonged, and how close did the South come to winning had the war ended because of the continued loss of Union Soldiers? 

                                    From The Texas Cavalry Brigade under Van Dorn.


                                    From: Bob Huddleston <huddleston.r@...>
                                    To: Civil War West <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Tue, December 21, 2010 9:31:53 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Retreat and Fall Back

                                    Having done some reading in sources ranging from an 1868 campaign
                                    biography of USG to Brooks Simpson, it does appear that Grant never
                                    retreated, especially after the Holly Springs raid..... :>)

                                    So I am willing to stipulate that Pap Thomas did not retreat after Mill
                                    Springs. He did fall back, make a strategic withdrawal, etc. What he did
                                    not do was pursue the Rebels. Double :>)

                                    Take care,

                                    Bob

                                    Judy and Bob Huddleston
                                    10643 Sperry Street
                                    Northglenn, CO  80234-3612
                                    Huddleston.r@...

                                    “There must be more historians of the Civil War than there were generals
                                    fighting it, and, of the two groups, the historians are the more
                                    belligerent.” David Donald, “Refighting the Civil War,” Lincoln
                                    Reconsidered (New York, 1956), 82.

                                    On 12/21/2010 2:13 PM, keeno2@... wrote:
                                    > Agreed that it's semantics, Patricia. One might fall back to
                                    > consolidate. One might run like a rabbit and call it a strategic withdrawal.
                                    > In my limited memory, the Holly Springs episode was the only time Grant
                                    > ever "retreated."
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                    > From: Patricia Swan <pbswan@...>
                                    > To: civilwarwest <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
                                    > Sent: Mon, Dec 20, 2010 2:50 pm
                                    > Subject: [civilwarwest] Retreat and Fall Back
                                    >
                                    > It may all be a matter of semantics, but it seems to me that this being
                                    > the anniversary of Confederate General Earl Van Dorn's raid on Grant's
                                    > supply base at Holly Springs, it might be a timely illustration.  After
                                    > the raid, Grant could no longer sustain his troops, his supplies at
                                    > Holly Springs having been largely destroyed and the railroad down to
                                    > Mississippi having been disrupted.  One could say, and some do write,
                                    > that Grant retreated. Others say that he was "forced to fall back" to
                                    > Tennessee.  Do these terms apply equally well to what Grant did, or is
                                    > one or the other more apt?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ------------------------------------
                                    >
                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >


                                    ------------------------------------

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                                  • keeno2@aol.com
                                    Why not a good comparison, Hank? Seems to me both wanted to avoid a continuing, pointless fight. ... From: hank9174 To: civilwarwest
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Dec 24, 2010
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                                      Why not a good comparison, Hank? Seems to me both wanted to avoid a continuing, pointless fight.



                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: hank9174 <clarkc@...>
                                      To: civilwarwest <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Sent: Thu, Dec 23, 2010 12:30 pm
                                      Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Retreat and Fall Back

                                      > 
                                      
                                      > Schofield made a strategic withdrawal from Franklin. He just wanted to get to
                                      Nashville and didn't want another pointless fight there. Much the same as Lee did at Sharpsburg.
                                      >
                                      Not a good comparison. Lee's will was thwarted on Antietam creek. I'd not go so far as to say Schofield imposed his on Hood, but it was pretty close... HankC ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: civilwarwest-digest@yahoogroups.com civilwarwest-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: civilwarwest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                    • keeno2@aol.com
                                      See other responses. Living off the countryside yields neither ammo nor tack. Food, yes. Ammo and tack, no. Let s also remember that the food gathered requires
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Dec 24, 2010
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                                        See other responses. Living off the countryside yields neither ammo nor tack. Food, yes. Ammo and tack, no. Let's also remember that the food gathered requires butchering, grinding, baking, et al. Not particularly conducive to an army trying to get somewhere in a hurry.
                                         
                                        When Sherman marched through Georgia, he alternated which divisions led -- the lead division got the forage. There was little left for those following. And Sherman brought with him a potful of wagons with ammo and spare tack. Grant did the same with his Bruinsburg supply line.



                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: jlawrence <jlawrence@...>
                                        To: civilwarwest <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Thu, Dec 23, 2010 1:54 pm
                                        Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Retreat and Fall Back

                                        .  True, Holly Springs was a successful confederate stroke but it did nothing 
                                        but delay Grants continued advances on Vicksburg.  It did not change Grant's 
                                        objective, only how he got there.  Grant did not retreat from Holly Springs but, 
                                        yes he did change his base of supply and axis of advance.  
                                        
                                        Hello.
                                        
                                        I am not sure Grant ever retreated. 
                                        The Holly Springs thing was one of what, six failed attempts to seize  
                                        Vicksburg? With his supply line cut and the railroads being torn up, he just 
                                        retrenched and looked for another way in.
                                        What is always overlooked is what Grant learned-that body of troops, cut off in 
                                        hostile territorty but previously unravaged by war, can support a march or 
                                        maneuver by foraging the enemy for provender.
                                        And he did it. And he learned.
                                        The next year, in fear Napoleonic in execution of not in scope, using a grand 
                                        calvary raid as a diversion, he conducted a successful river crossing below the 
                                        city.
                                        He cut himself off and, using the foraging tactic learned the year before, he 
                                        drove into the state ma took the capital
                                        This time it was Grant tearing up railroads and burning enemy assets. Securing 
                                        his rear, he marched/fought his way back to Vicksburg, eventually securing it's 
                                        fall.
                                        The winter next, Grant, Sherman and Lincoln devised a plan that, using the same 
                                        tactic, would gut the south in the east.
                                        retreat hell 
                                        
                                        Regards,
                                        Jack
                                        
                                        
                                        Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
                                        
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                                      • jlawrence@kc.rr.com
                                        you seem to ignore the fact that they perserved. What they did worked. You can parse it all you like. But it worked. Unless you are falling on the old canards
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Dec 24, 2010
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                                          you seem to ignore the fact that they perserved. What they did worked.
                                          You can parse it all you like.
                                          But it worked. Unless you are falling on the old canards that they were lucky or the enemy stupid.
                                          It worked and they were brilliant in the execution.

                                          I might read the other posts. But it is Christmas. Family and church beckon.

                                          Merry Chistmas.

                                          Jack

                                          Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry


                                          From: keeno2@...
                                          Sender: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                          Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:01:53 -0500 (EST)
                                          To: <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
                                          ReplyTo: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Retreat and Fall Back

                                          See other responses. Living off the countryside yields neither ammo nor tack. Food, yes. Ammo and tack, no. Let's also remember that the food gathered requires butchering, grinding, baking, et al. Not particularly conducive to an army trying to get somewhere in a hurry.
                                           
                                          When Sherman marched through Georgia, he alternated which divisions led -- the lead division got the forage. There was little left for those following. And Sherman brought with him a potful of wagons with ammo and spare tack. Grant did the same with his Bruinsburg supply line.



                                          -----Original Message-----
                                          From: jlawrence <jlawrence@...>
                                          To: civilwarwest <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
                                          Sent: Thu, Dec 23, 2010 1:54 pm
                                          Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Retreat and Fall Back

                                          .  True, Holly Springs was a successful confederate stroke but it did nothing 
                                          but delay Grants continued advances on Vicksburg.  It did not change Grant's 
                                          objective, only how he got there.  Grant did not retreat from Holly Springs but, 
                                          yes he did change his base of supply and axis of advance.  
                                          
                                          Hello.
                                          
                                          I am not sure Grant ever retreated. 
                                          The Holly Springs thing was one of what, six failed attempts to seize  
                                          Vicksburg? With his supply line cut and the railroads being torn up, he just 
                                          retrenched and looked for another way in.
                                          What is always overlooked is what Grant learned-that body of troops, cut off in 
                                          hostile territorty but previously unravaged by war, can support a march or 
                                          maneuver by foraging the enemy for provender.
                                          And he did it. And he learned.
                                          The next year, in fear Napoleonic in execution of not in scope, using a grand 
                                          calvary raid as a diversion, he conducted a successful river crossing below the 
                                          city.
                                          He cut himself off and, using the foraging tactic learned the year before, he 
                                          drove into the state ma took the capital
                                          This time it was Grant tearing up railroads and burning enemy assets. Securing 
                                          his rear, he marched/fought his way back to Vicksburg, eventually securing it's 
                                          fall.
                                          The winter next, Grant, Sherman and Lincoln devised a plan that, using the same 
                                          tactic, would gut the south in the east.
                                          retreat hell 
                                          
                                          Regards,
                                          Jack
                                          
                                          
                                          Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
                                          
                                          ------------------------------------
                                          
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                                        • keeno2@aol.com
                                          How do you get to ignoring...that they persevered? Losing Holly Springs was only a setback. Grant, being Grantlike, probably mumbled to himself some and then
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Dec 25, 2010
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                                            How do you get to "ignoring...that they persevered? Losing Holly Springs was only a setback. Grant, being Grantlike, probably mumbled to himself some and then proceeded to take Vicksburg.
                                             
                                            In the context of the title of this thread, the discussion of the aftermath of the Holly Springs raid ought to address the movement Grant made when his supplies were destroyed. Was it a retreat? A fall back? A withdrawal?



                                            -----Original Message-----
                                            From: jlawrence <jlawrence@...>
                                            To: civilwarwest <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
                                            Sent: Fri, Dec 24, 2010 3:29 pm
                                            Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Retreat and Fall Back



                                            you seem to ignore the fact that they perserved. What they did worked.
                                            You can parse it all you like.
                                            But it worked. Unless you are falling on the old canards that they were lucky or the enemy stupid.
                                            It worked and they were brilliant in the execution.

                                            I might read the other posts. But it is Christmas. Family and church beckon.

                                            Merry Chistmas.

                                            Jack
                                            Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

                                            Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:01:53 -0500 (EST)
                                            Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Retreat and Fall Back

                                            See other responses. Living off the countryside yields neither ammo nor tack. Food, yes. Ammo and tack, no. Let's also remember that the food gathered requires butchering, grinding, baking, et al. Not particularly conducive to an army trying to get somewhere in a hurry.
                                             
                                            When Sherman marched through Georgia, he alternated which divisions led -- the lead division got the forage. There was little left for those following. And Sherman brought with him a potful of wagons with ammo and spare tack. Grant did the same with his Bruinsburg supply line.



                                            -----Original Message-----
                                            From: jlawrence <jlawrence@...>
                                            To: civilwarwest <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
                                            Sent: Thu, Dec 23, 2010 1:54 pm
                                            Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Retreat and Fall Back

                                            .  True, Holly Springs was a successful confederate stroke but it did nothing 
                                            but delay Grants continued advances on Vicksburg.  It did not change Grant's 
                                            objective, only how he got there.  Grant did not retreat from Holly Springs but, 
                                            yes he did change his base of supply and axis of advance.  
                                            
                                            Hello.
                                            
                                            I am not sure Grant ever retreated. 
                                            The Holly Springs thing was one of what, six failed attempts to seize  
                                            Vicksburg? With his supply line cut and the railroads being torn up, he just 
                                            retrenched and looked for another way in.
                                            What is always overlooked is what Grant learned-that body of troops, cut off in 
                                            hostile territorty but previously unravaged by war, can support a march or 
                                            maneuver by foraging the enemy for provender.
                                            And he did it. And he learned.
                                            The next year, in fear Napoleonic in execution of not in scope, using a grand 
                                            calvary raid as a diversion, he conducted a successful river crossing below the 
                                            city.
                                            He cut himself off and, using the foraging tactic learned the year before, he 
                                            drove into the state ma took the capital
                                            This time it was Grant tearing up railroads and burning enemy assets. Securing 
                                            his rear, he marched/fought his way back to Vicksburg, eventually securing it's 
                                            fall.
                                            The winter next, Grant, Sherman and Lincoln devised a plan that, using the same 
                                            tactic, would gut the south in the east.
                                            retreat hell 
                                            
                                            Regards,
                                            Jack
                                            
                                            
                                            Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
                                            
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                                          • William Nolan
                                            To me a Strategic Withdrawal is a planned moved that removes a unit from contact for another purpose. Thomas fell back to Nashville as a planned move. He had
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Dec 26, 2010
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                                              To me a Strategic Withdrawal is a planned moved that removes a unit from contact for another purpose.

                                              Thomas fell back to Nashville as a planned move. He had no idea that Hood had lost 6 generals, only that he had lost a  lot of men. It was still possible that he could have been breeched, so he moved to a superior position. I am not as knowledgeable of the details of the battle.  I had walked the battlefield, Canton Plantation and Nashville. Forrest had Cavalry doing diversion actions in Murfreesboro and north of Nashville.  Cavalry was thin, but it could have been better used than the Infantry was abused.  Nashville was well fortified and would have required probably twice Hood's force to even attempt to take it. A sick defeated Hood tried, anyway.

                                              I would like to have seen the terrain in  1864. Today it is extremely forested and hilly.  Without the overgrowth it may have seemed more obtainable.  The Franklin position was good but not near as good as Nashville.  The Union positions were very tight.  There defense was good because there were not gaps.  At Corinth Rosecran almost lost because the Confederates breeched his line. Only spontaneous counter attacks and lack of reinforcement by Van Dorn save him.  At Franklin, the Confederate line seems to have lost men all across the front.  The cemetery at Canton looks like units on line by State.  I went from there to the National Cemetery in Nashville.  Much harder to find the Union dead and those Confederates who died there.
                                               
                                                


                                              From: Bob Taubman <rtaubman@...>
                                              To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                              Sent: Wed, December 22, 2010 5:47:14 AM
                                              Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Retreat and Fall Back

                                               

                                              What is a "strategic withdrawal"?  The battle is over, the enemy is routed.  What does any army victorous army do in those circumstances.  It leaves the battlefield.  It isn't a "strategic withdrawl:".  They just left. 
                                               
                                              Wow, and you are willing to stipulate that Thomas did not retreat.  Good on you.  I'm sure that must be the Christmas spirit.


                                              From: Bob Huddleston <huddleston.r@...>
                                              To: Civil War West <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
                                              Sent: Tue, December 21, 2010 10:31:53 PM
                                              Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Retreat and Fall Back

                                              Having done some reading in sources ranging from an 1868 campaign
                                              biography of USG to Brooks Simpson, it does appear that Grant never
                                              retreated, especially after the Holly Springs raid..... :>)

                                              So I am willing to stipulate that Pap Thomas did not retreat after Mill
                                              Springs. He did fall back, make a strategic withdrawal, etc. What he did
                                              not do was pursue the Rebels. Double :>)

                                              Take care,

                                              Bob

                                              Judy and Bob Huddleston
                                              10643 Sperry Street
                                              Northglenn, CO  80234-3612
                                              Huddleston.r@...

                                              “There must be more historians of the Civil War than there were generals
                                              fighting it, and, of the two groups, the historians are the more
                                              belligerent.” David Donald, “Refighting the Civil War,” Lincoln
                                              Reconsidered (New York, 1956), 82.

                                              On 12/21/2010 2:13 PM, keeno2@... wrote:
                                              > Agreed that it's semantics, Patricia. One might fall back to
                                              > consolidate. One might run like a rabbit and call it a strategic withdrawal.
                                              > In my limited memory, the Holly Springs episode was the only time Grant
                                              > ever "retreated."
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > -----Original Message-----
                                              > From: Patricia Swan <pbswan@...>
                                              > To: civilwarwest <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
                                              > Sent: Mon, Dec 20, 2010 2:50 pm
                                              > Subject: [civilwarwest] Retreat and Fall Back
                                              >
                                              > It may all be a matter of semantics, but it seems to me that this being
                                              > the anniversary of Confederate General Earl Van Dorn's raid on Grant's
                                              > supply base at Holly Springs, it might be a timely illustration.  After
                                              > the raid, Grant could no longer sustain his troops, his supplies at
                                              > Holly Springs having been largely destroyed and the railroad down to
                                              > Mississippi having been disrupted.  One could say, and some do write,
                                              > that Grant retreated. Others say that he was "forced to fall back" to
                                              > Tennessee.  Do these terms apply equally well to what Grant did, or is
                                              > one or the other more apt?
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > ------------------------------------
                                              >
                                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >


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                                            • hank9174
                                              Of course, in Schofield s mind (and his men) there is no withdrawal or fall back. Nashville is his destination from the beginning of the move from Atlanta.
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Dec 27, 2010
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                                                Of course, in Schofield's mind (and his men) there is no withdrawal or fall back.

                                                Nashville is his destination from the beginning of the move from Atlanta.

                                                Thomas considers moving forward to Brentwood but decides to wait for Smith's divisions and remains concentrated at Nashville - especially with Forrest's whereabouts unknown.

                                                A number of garrisons at Chattanooga and northern Alabama are also ordered to concentrate toward Murfreesboro. These units had been placed to provide early warning and delay of such a move as Hood's. Once the move is discovered and well-developed, their mission is over md they are free to be re-deployed. Whether the new move is backward, forward or sideways is situation dependent.


                                                HankC

                                                --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, William Nolan <sixtxcavrgtcsa@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > To me a Strategic Withdrawal is a planned moved that removes a unit from contact
                                                > for another purpose.
                                                >
                                                > Thomas fell back to Nashville as a planned move. He had no idea that Hood had
                                                > lost 6 generals, only that he had lost a lot of men. It was still possible that
                                                > he could have been breeched, so he moved to a superior position. I am not
                                                > as knowledgeable of the details of the battle. I had walked the battlefield,
                                                > Canton Plantation and Nashville. Forrest had Cavalry doing diversion actions in
                                                > Murfreesboro and north of Nashville. Cavalry was thin, but it could have been
                                                > better used than the Infantry was abused. Nashville was well fortified and
                                                > would have required probably twice Hood's force to even attempt to take it. A
                                                > sick defeated Hood tried, anyway.
                                                >
                                                > I would like to have seen the terrain in 1864. Today it is extremely forested
                                                > and hilly. Without the overgrowth it may have seemed more obtainable. The
                                                > Franklin position was good but not near as good as Nashville. The Union
                                                > positions were very tight. There defense was good because there were not gaps.
                                                > At Corinth Rosecran almost lost because the Confederates breeched his line.
                                                > Only spontaneous counter attacks and lack of reinforcement by Van Dorn save him.
                                                > At Franklin, the Confederate line seems to have lost men all across the front.
                                                > The cemetery at Canton looks like units on line by State. I went from there to
                                                > the National Cemetery in Nashville. Much harder to find the Union dead and
                                                > those Confederates who died there.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > ________________________________
                                                > From: Bob Taubman <rtaubman@...>
                                                > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                                > Sent: Wed, December 22, 2010 5:47:14 AM
                                                > Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Retreat and Fall Back
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > What is a "strategic withdrawal"? The battle is over, the enemy is routed.
                                                > What does any army victorous army do in those circumstances. It leaves the
                                                > battlefield. It isn't a "strategic withdrawl:". They just left.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Wow, and you are willing to stipulate that Thomas did not retreat. Good on
                                                > you. I'm sure that must be the Christmas spirit.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > ________________________________
                                                > From: Bob Huddleston <huddleston.r@...>
                                                > To: Civil War West <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
                                                > Sent: Tue, December 21, 2010 10:31:53 PM
                                                > Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Retreat and Fall Back
                                                >
                                                > Having done some reading in sources ranging from an 1868 campaign
                                                > biography of USG to Brooks Simpson, it does appear that Grant never
                                                > retreated, especially after the Holly Springs raid..... :>)
                                                >
                                                > So I am willing to stipulate that Pap Thomas did not retreat after Mill
                                                > Springs. He did fall back, make a strategic withdrawal, etc. What he did
                                                > not do was pursue the Rebels. Double :>)
                                                >
                                                > Take care,
                                                >
                                                > Bob
                                                >
                                                > Judy and Bob Huddleston
                                                > 10643 Sperry Street
                                                > Northglenn, CO 80234-3612
                                                > Huddleston.r@...
                                                >
                                                > “There must be more historians of the Civil War than there were generals
                                                > fighting it, and, of the two groups, the historians are the more
                                                > belligerent.” David Donald, “Refighting the Civil War,” Lincoln
                                                > Reconsidered (New York, 1956), 82.
                                                >
                                                > On 12/21/2010 2:13 PM, keeno2@... wrote:
                                                > > Agreed that it's semantics, Patricia. One might fall back to
                                                > > consolidate. One might run like a rabbit and call it a strategic withdrawal.
                                                > > In my limited memory, the Holly Springs episode was the only time Grant
                                                > > ever "retreated."
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > -----Original Message-----
                                                > > From: Patricia Swan <pbswan@...>
                                                > > To: civilwarwest <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
                                                > > Sent: Mon, Dec 20, 2010 2:50 pm
                                                > > Subject: [civilwarwest] Retreat and Fall Back
                                                > >
                                                > > It may all be a matter of semantics, but it seems to me that this being
                                                > > the anniversary of Confederate General Earl Van Dorn's raid on Grant's
                                                > > supply base at Holly Springs, it might be a timely illustration. After
                                                > > the raid, Grant could no longer sustain his troops, his supplies at
                                                > > Holly Springs having been largely destroyed and the railroad down to
                                                > > Mississippi having been disrupted. One could say, and some do write,
                                                > > that Grant retreated. Others say that he was "forced to fall back" to
                                                > > Tennessee. Do these terms apply equally well to what Grant did, or is
                                                > > one or the other more apt?
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > ------------------------------------
                                                > >
                                                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > ------------------------------------
                                                >
                                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                >
                                              • DORR64OVI@aol.com
                                                Once Thomas determines that Hoods intention is to fight his army and not follow Sherman into GA, Old Paps plan is to concentrate his forces. Until Hood shows
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Dec 27, 2010
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                                                  Once Thomas determines that Hoods intention is to fight his army and not follow Sherman into GA, Old Paps plan is to concentrate his forces.  Until Hood shows his hand about where he intends to move, either toward Knoxville or northward into Ky, Thomas prepares to check him either at Murfreesboro or Chattanooga. 
                                                     Thomas orders Schofield to move gradually back from Pulaski to Columbia in case Hoods moves this way.  When the telegraph lines get cut between Thomas and Schofield, Thomas believes at this point that Hoods objective is Nashville and not Chattanooga.
                                                     At Columbia Schofield is fooled by the appearance of Hoods artillery.  He fails to see that it is a trick to hold him in place while Hood crosses the Duck River and move to cut him off at Spring Hill.  After delaying for 12 some hours, Wilsons cavalry patrols reveal Hoods intentions and Schofield sends the 4th Corps hastily up the Columbia Pike.  Only Hoods own blunder at Spring Hill in failling to attack saves Schofield from capture and the Federals march past Hoods campfires on the retreat to Franklin and Nashville.
                                                      When Thomas gets the word that Hood has crossed the Duck River and is moving north, it is at this point that he orders his forces to concentrate at Nashville.  Schofield is slowly retreating to Franklin where he must cross the Harpeth River.  Thomas orders him to defend Franklin while crossing and hopes Schofield can hold for three days to allow Smiths reeinforcements to arrive at Nashville.  Schofield replies that he cant hold Franklin and Thomas then orders him to pull his army back to Nashville.
                                                      Approaching Franklin, Hood orders a frontal assault which is repulsed with heavy losses.  Schofield continues his retreat to Nashville after dark and reaches the cities defenses on Dec 1.  Hood follows Schofield to Nashville, but his losses have weakened his force so that it cannot attack Thomas.  Hood has now lost the critical element of initiative and Thomas has time to strengthen his forces especially his cavalry.   Despite fears of Hoods intentions and ability to move by Washington and Grant, Thomas waits out the Dec weather and finally attacks Hood, smashing him over the course of two days.
                                                       So it appears that Schofields moves are a retreat which ultimately reveal Hoods intentions. 
                                                   
                                                  Kent Dorr
                                                  In a message dated 12/27/2010 10:14:01 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, clarkc@... writes:

                                                  Of course, in Schofield's mind (and his men) there is no withdrawal or fall back.

                                                  Nashville is his destination from the beginning of the move from Atlanta.

                                                  Thomas considers moving forward to Brentwood but decides to wait for Smith's divisions and remains concentrated at Nashville - especially with Forrest's whereabouts unknown.

                                                  A number of garrisons at Chattanooga and northern Alabama are also ordered to concentrate toward Murfreesboro. These units had been placed to provide early warning and delay of such a move as Hood's. Once the move is discovered and well-developed, their mission is over md they are free to be re-deployed. Whether the new move is backward, forward or sideways is situation dependent.

                                                  HankC
                                                • hank9174
                                                  very good synopsis. In some ways this is similar to Lee s treatment of Pope along the Rappahannock prior to the battle of 2nd Manassas. This time Hood (in the
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Dec 28, 2010
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                                                    very good synopsis.

                                                    In some ways this is similar to Lee's treatment of Pope along the Rappahannock prior to the battle of 2nd Manassas.

                                                    This time Hood (in the role of Lee) is trying to prevent/destroy Schofield (in the role of Pope) from combining with Thomas (in the role of McClellan) in the Nashville defenses (playing the role of Washington DC).

                                                    Of course, Lee then split his army (he had that habit) sending Jackson on an end-run and Little Mac was farther away than Thomas.


                                                    HankC



                                                    --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, DORR64OVI@... wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > Once Thomas determines that Hoods intention is to fight his army and not
                                                    > follow Sherman into GA, Old Paps plan is to concentrate his forces. Until
                                                    > Hood shows his hand about where he intends to move, either toward Knoxville
                                                    > or northward into Ky, Thomas prepares to check him either at Murfreesboro or
                                                    > Chattanooga.
                                                    > Thomas orders Schofield to move gradually back from Pulaski to Columbia
                                                    > in case Hoods moves this way. When the telegraph lines get cut between
                                                    > Thomas and Schofield, Thomas believes at this point that Hoods objective is
                                                    > Nashville and not Chattanooga.
                                                    > At Columbia Schofield is fooled by the appearance of Hoods artillery.
                                                    > He fails to see that it is a trick to hold him in place while Hood crosses
                                                    > the Duck River and move to cut him off at Spring Hill. After delaying for
                                                    > 12 some hours, Wilsons cavalry patrols reveal Hoods intentions and
                                                    > Schofield sends the 4th Corps hastily up the Columbia Pike. Only Hoods own blunder
                                                    > at Spring Hill in failling to attack saves Schofield from capture and the
                                                    > Federals march past Hoods campfires on the retreat to Franklin and
                                                    > Nashville.
                                                    > When Thomas gets the word that Hood has crossed the Duck River and is
                                                    > moving north, it is at this point that he orders his forces to concentrate
                                                    > at Nashville. Schofield is slowly retreating to Franklin where he must
                                                    > cross the Harpeth River. Thomas orders him to defend Franklin while crossing
                                                    > and hopes Schofield can hold for three days to allow Smiths reeinforcements
                                                    > to arrive at Nashville. Schofield replies that he cant hold Franklin and
                                                    > Thomas then orders him to pull his army back to Nashville.
                                                    > Approaching Franklin, Hood orders a frontal assault which is repulsed
                                                    > with heavy losses. Schofield continues his retreat to Nashville after dark
                                                    > and reaches the cities defenses on Dec 1. Hood follows Schofield to
                                                    > Nashville, but his losses have weakened his force so that it cannot attack
                                                    > Thomas. Hood has now lost the critical element of initiative and Thomas has
                                                    > time to strengthen his forces especially his cavalry. Despite fears of Hoods
                                                    > intentions and ability to move by Washington and Grant, Thomas waits out
                                                    > the Dec weather and finally attacks Hood, smashing him over the course of
                                                    > two days.
                                                    > So it appears that Schofields moves are a retreat which ultimately
                                                    > reveal Hoods intentions.
                                                    >
                                                    > Kent Dorr
                                                    >
                                                    > In a message dated 12/27/2010 10:14:01 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                                                    > clarkc@... writes:
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > Of course, in Schofield's mind (and his men) there is no withdrawal or
                                                    > fall back.
                                                    >
                                                    > Nashville is his destination from the beginning of the move from Atlanta.
                                                    >
                                                    > Thomas considers moving forward to Brentwood but decides to wait for
                                                    > Smith's divisions and remains concentrated at Nashville - especially with
                                                    > Forrest's whereabouts unknown.
                                                    >
                                                    > A number of garrisons at Chattanooga and northern Alabama are also ordered
                                                    > to concentrate toward Murfreesboro. These units had been placed to provide
                                                    > early warning and delay of such a move as Hood's. Once the move is
                                                    > discovered and well-developed, their mission is over md they are free to be
                                                    > re-deployed. Whether the new move is backward, forward or sideways is situation
                                                    > dependent.
                                                    >
                                                    > HankC
                                                    >
                                                  • william
                                                    My question has always been: why was Holly Springs left so vulnerable to a Calvary raid, considering its strategic importance? Bill Bruner
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Jan 1, 2011
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      My question has always been: why was Holly Springs left so vulnerable to a Calvary raid, considering its strategic importance?

                                                      Bill Bruner

                                                      --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "hank9174" <clarkc@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > very good synopsis.
                                                      >
                                                      > In some ways this is similar to Lee's treatment of Pope along the Rappahannock prior to the battle of 2nd Manassas.
                                                      >
                                                      > This time Hood (in the role of Lee) is trying to prevent/destroy Schofield (in the role of Pope) from combining with Thomas (in the role of McClellan) in the Nashville defenses (playing the role of Washington DC).
                                                      >
                                                      > Of course, Lee then split his army (he had that habit) sending Jackson on an end-run and Little Mac was farther away than Thomas.
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > HankC
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, DORR64OVI@ wrote:
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Once Thomas determines that Hoods intention is to fight his army and not
                                                      > > follow Sherman into GA, Old Paps plan is to concentrate his forces. Until
                                                      > > Hood shows his hand about where he intends to move, either toward Knoxville
                                                      > > or northward into Ky, Thomas prepares to check him either at Murfreesboro or
                                                      > > Chattanooga.
                                                      > > Thomas orders Schofield to move gradually back from Pulaski to Columbia
                                                      > > in case Hoods moves this way. When the telegraph lines get cut between
                                                      > > Thomas and Schofield, Thomas believes at this point that Hoods objective is
                                                      > > Nashville and not Chattanooga.
                                                      > > At Columbia Schofield is fooled by the appearance of Hoods artillery.
                                                      > > He fails to see that it is a trick to hold him in place while Hood crosses
                                                      > > the Duck River and move to cut him off at Spring Hill. After delaying for
                                                      > > 12 some hours, Wilsons cavalry patrols reveal Hoods intentions and
                                                      > > Schofield sends the 4th Corps hastily up the Columbia Pike. Only Hoods own blunder
                                                      > > at Spring Hill in failling to attack saves Schofield from capture and the
                                                      > > Federals march past Hoods campfires on the retreat to Franklin and
                                                      > > Nashville.
                                                      > > When Thomas gets the word that Hood has crossed the Duck River and is
                                                      > > moving north, it is at this point that he orders his forces to concentrate
                                                      > > at Nashville. Schofield is slowly retreating to Franklin where he must
                                                      > > cross the Harpeth River. Thomas orders him to defend Franklin while crossing
                                                      > > and hopes Schofield can hold for three days to allow Smiths reeinforcements
                                                      > > to arrive at Nashville. Schofield replies that he cant hold Franklin and
                                                      > > Thomas then orders him to pull his army back to Nashville.
                                                      > > Approaching Franklin, Hood orders a frontal assault which is repulsed
                                                      > > with heavy losses. Schofield continues his retreat to Nashville after dark
                                                      > > and reaches the cities defenses on Dec 1. Hood follows Schofield to
                                                      > > Nashville, but his losses have weakened his force so that it cannot attack
                                                      > > Thomas. Hood has now lost the critical element of initiative and Thomas has
                                                      > > time to strengthen his forces especially his cavalry. Despite fears of Hoods
                                                      > > intentions and ability to move by Washington and Grant, Thomas waits out
                                                      > > the Dec weather and finally attacks Hood, smashing him over the course of
                                                      > > two days.
                                                      > > So it appears that Schofields moves are a retreat which ultimately
                                                      > > reveal Hoods intentions.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Kent Dorr
                                                      > >
                                                      > > In a message dated 12/27/2010 10:14:01 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                                                      > > clarkc@ writes:
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Of course, in Schofield's mind (and his men) there is no withdrawal or
                                                      > > fall back.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Nashville is his destination from the beginning of the move from Atlanta.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Thomas considers moving forward to Brentwood but decides to wait for
                                                      > > Smith's divisions and remains concentrated at Nashville - especially with
                                                      > > Forrest's whereabouts unknown.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > A number of garrisons at Chattanooga and northern Alabama are also ordered
                                                      > > to concentrate toward Murfreesboro. These units had been placed to provide
                                                      > > early warning and delay of such a move as Hood's. Once the move is
                                                      > > discovered and well-developed, their mission is over md they are free to be
                                                      > > re-deployed. Whether the new move is backward, forward or sideways is situation
                                                      > > dependent.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > HankC
                                                      > >
                                                      >
                                                    • hank9174
                                                      The garrison at Holly Springs is about 1500. That s a pretty significant force, leading to the conclusion that the local commander is not diligent enough.
                                                      Message 26 of 30 , Jan 1, 2011
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                                                        The garrison at Holly Springs is about 1500. That's a pretty significant force, leading to the conclusion that the local commander is not diligent enough.

                                                        Grant send warnings on the 19th that Van Dorn was on the loose with an unknown destination.

                                                        --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "william" <banbruner@...> wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        > My question has always been: why was Holly Springs left so vulnerable to a Calvary raid, considering its strategic importance?
                                                        >
                                                        > Bill Bruner
                                                        >
                                                        > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "hank9174" <clarkc@> wrote:
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > > very good synopsis.
                                                        > >
                                                        > > In some ways this is similar to Lee's treatment of Pope along the Rappahannock prior to the battle of 2nd Manassas.
                                                        > >
                                                        > > This time Hood (in the role of Lee) is trying to prevent/destroy Schofield (in the role of Pope) from combining with Thomas (in the role of McClellan) in the Nashville defenses (playing the role of Washington DC).
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Of course, Lee then split his army (he had that habit) sending Jackson on an end-run and Little Mac was farther away than Thomas.
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > > HankC
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, DORR64OVI@ wrote:
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > Once Thomas determines that Hoods intention is to fight his army and not
                                                        > > > follow Sherman into GA, Old Paps plan is to concentrate his forces. Until
                                                        > > > Hood shows his hand about where he intends to move, either toward Knoxville
                                                        > > > or northward into Ky, Thomas prepares to check him either at Murfreesboro or
                                                        > > > Chattanooga.
                                                        > > > Thomas orders Schofield to move gradually back from Pulaski to Columbia
                                                        > > > in case Hoods moves this way. When the telegraph lines get cut between
                                                        > > > Thomas and Schofield, Thomas believes at this point that Hoods objective is
                                                        > > > Nashville and not Chattanooga.
                                                        > > > At Columbia Schofield is fooled by the appearance of Hoods artillery.
                                                        > > > He fails to see that it is a trick to hold him in place while Hood crosses
                                                        > > > the Duck River and move to cut him off at Spring Hill. After delaying for
                                                        > > > 12 some hours, Wilsons cavalry patrols reveal Hoods intentions and
                                                        > > > Schofield sends the 4th Corps hastily up the Columbia Pike. Only Hoods own blunder
                                                        > > > at Spring Hill in failling to attack saves Schofield from capture and the
                                                        > > > Federals march past Hoods campfires on the retreat to Franklin and
                                                        > > > Nashville.
                                                        > > > When Thomas gets the word that Hood has crossed the Duck River and is
                                                        > > > moving north, it is at this point that he orders his forces to concentrate
                                                        > > > at Nashville. Schofield is slowly retreating to Franklin where he must
                                                        > > > cross the Harpeth River. Thomas orders him to defend Franklin while crossing
                                                        > > > and hopes Schofield can hold for three days to allow Smiths reeinforcements
                                                        > > > to arrive at Nashville. Schofield replies that he cant hold Franklin and
                                                        > > > Thomas then orders him to pull his army back to Nashville.
                                                        > > > Approaching Franklin, Hood orders a frontal assault which is repulsed
                                                        > > > with heavy losses. Schofield continues his retreat to Nashville after dark
                                                        > > > and reaches the cities defenses on Dec 1. Hood follows Schofield to
                                                        > > > Nashville, but his losses have weakened his force so that it cannot attack
                                                        > > > Thomas. Hood has now lost the critical element of initiative and Thomas has
                                                        > > > time to strengthen his forces especially his cavalry. Despite fears of Hoods
                                                        > > > intentions and ability to move by Washington and Grant, Thomas waits out
                                                        > > > the Dec weather and finally attacks Hood, smashing him over the course of
                                                        > > > two days.
                                                        > > > So it appears that Schofields moves are a retreat which ultimately
                                                        > > > reveal Hoods intentions.
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > Kent Dorr
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > In a message dated 12/27/2010 10:14:01 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                                                        > > > clarkc@ writes:
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > Of course, in Schofield's mind (and his men) there is no withdrawal or
                                                        > > > fall back.
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > Nashville is his destination from the beginning of the move from Atlanta.
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > Thomas considers moving forward to Brentwood but decides to wait for
                                                        > > > Smith's divisions and remains concentrated at Nashville - especially with
                                                        > > > Forrest's whereabouts unknown.
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > A number of garrisons at Chattanooga and northern Alabama are also ordered
                                                        > > > to concentrate toward Murfreesboro. These units had been placed to provide
                                                        > > > early warning and delay of such a move as Hood's. Once the move is
                                                        > > > discovered and well-developed, their mission is over md they are free to be
                                                        > > > re-deployed. Whether the new move is backward, forward or sideways is situation
                                                        > > > dependent.
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > HankC
                                                        > > >
                                                        > >
                                                        >
                                                      • william
                                                        I ve been trying to find the strength of the garrison. I have seen that 1500 were captured but I m thinking many more may have escaped. R. C. Murphy the
                                                        Message 27 of 30 , Jan 1, 2011
                                                        • 0 Attachment
                                                          I've been trying to find the strength of the garrison. I have seen that 1500 were captured but I'm thinking many more may have escaped.

                                                          R. C. Murphy the commander had proven himself to be incompetent and or a coward at Iuka. ISTM that the importance and nearness of Holly Springs to the main army that reinforcements could have easily been sent in time for Van Dorn's raid.

                                                          Bill Bruner

                                                          --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "hank9174" <clarkc@...> wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          > The garrison at Holly Springs is about 1500. That's a pretty significant force, leading to the conclusion that the local commander is not diligent enough.
                                                          >
                                                          > Grant send warnings on the 19th that Van Dorn was on the loose with an unknown destination.
                                                          >
                                                          > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "william" <banbruner@> wrote:
                                                          > >
                                                          > > My question has always been: why was Holly Springs left so vulnerable to a Calvary raid, considering its strategic importance?
                                                          > >
                                                          > > Bill Bruner
                                                          > >
                                                          > > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "hank9174" <clarkc@> wrote:
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > > very good synopsis.
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > > In some ways this is similar to Lee's treatment of Pope along the Rappahannock prior to the battle of 2nd Manassas.
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > > This time Hood (in the role of Lee) is trying to prevent/destroy Schofield (in the role of Pope) from combining with Thomas (in the role of McClellan) in the Nashville defenses (playing the role of Washington DC).
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > > Of course, Lee then split his army (he had that habit) sending Jackson on an end-run and Little Mac was farther away than Thomas.
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > > HankC
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, DORR64OVI@ wrote:
                                                          > > > >
                                                          > > > > Once Thomas determines that Hoods intention is to fight his army and not
                                                          > > > > follow Sherman into GA, Old Paps plan is to concentrate his forces. Until
                                                          > > > > Hood shows his hand about where he intends to move, either toward Knoxville
                                                          > > > > or northward into Ky, Thomas prepares to check him either at Murfreesboro or
                                                          > > > > Chattanooga.
                                                          > > > > Thomas orders Schofield to move gradually back from Pulaski to Columbia
                                                          > > > > in case Hoods moves this way. When the telegraph lines get cut between
                                                          > > > > Thomas and Schofield, Thomas believes at this point that Hoods objective is
                                                          > > > > Nashville and not Chattanooga.
                                                          > > > > At Columbia Schofield is fooled by the appearance of Hoods artillery.
                                                          > > > > He fails to see that it is a trick to hold him in place while Hood crosses
                                                          > > > > the Duck River and move to cut him off at Spring Hill. After delaying for
                                                          > > > > 12 some hours, Wilsons cavalry patrols reveal Hoods intentions and
                                                          > > > > Schofield sends the 4th Corps hastily up the Columbia Pike. Only Hoods own blunder
                                                          > > > > at Spring Hill in failling to attack saves Schofield from capture and the
                                                          > > > > Federals march past Hoods campfires on the retreat to Franklin and
                                                          > > > > Nashville.
                                                          > > > > When Thomas gets the word that Hood has crossed the Duck River and is
                                                          > > > > moving north, it is at this point that he orders his forces to concentrate
                                                          > > > > at Nashville. Schofield is slowly retreating to Franklin where he must
                                                          > > > > cross the Harpeth River. Thomas orders him to defend Franklin while crossing
                                                          > > > > and hopes Schofield can hold for three days to allow Smiths reeinforcements
                                                          > > > > to arrive at Nashville. Schofield replies that he cant hold Franklin and
                                                          > > > > Thomas then orders him to pull his army back to Nashville.
                                                          > > > > Approaching Franklin, Hood orders a frontal assault which is repulsed
                                                          > > > > with heavy losses. Schofield continues his retreat to Nashville after dark
                                                          > > > > and reaches the cities defenses on Dec 1. Hood follows Schofield to
                                                          > > > > Nashville, but his losses have weakened his force so that it cannot attack
                                                          > > > > Thomas. Hood has now lost the critical element of initiative and Thomas has
                                                          > > > > time to strengthen his forces especially his cavalry. Despite fears of Hoods
                                                          > > > > intentions and ability to move by Washington and Grant, Thomas waits out
                                                          > > > > the Dec weather and finally attacks Hood, smashing him over the course of
                                                          > > > > two days.
                                                          > > > > So it appears that Schofields moves are a retreat which ultimately
                                                          > > > > reveal Hoods intentions.
                                                          > > > >
                                                          > > > > Kent Dorr
                                                          > > > >
                                                          > > > > In a message dated 12/27/2010 10:14:01 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                                                          > > > > clarkc@ writes:
                                                          > > > >
                                                          > > > >
                                                          > > > > Of course, in Schofield's mind (and his men) there is no withdrawal or
                                                          > > > > fall back.
                                                          > > > >
                                                          > > > > Nashville is his destination from the beginning of the move from Atlanta.
                                                          > > > >
                                                          > > > > Thomas considers moving forward to Brentwood but decides to wait for
                                                          > > > > Smith's divisions and remains concentrated at Nashville - especially with
                                                          > > > > Forrest's whereabouts unknown.
                                                          > > > >
                                                          > > > > A number of garrisons at Chattanooga and northern Alabama are also ordered
                                                          > > > > to concentrate toward Murfreesboro. These units had been placed to provide
                                                          > > > > early warning and delay of such a move as Hood's. Once the move is
                                                          > > > > discovered and well-developed, their mission is over md they are free to be
                                                          > > > > re-deployed. Whether the new move is backward, forward or sideways is situation
                                                          > > > > dependent.
                                                          > > > >
                                                          > > > > HankC
                                                          > > > >
                                                          > > >
                                                          > >
                                                          >
                                                        • William Nolan
                                                          There were essentially three units at Holly Springs. One at the supply depot, one down town and a lite(not fully manned) Cavalry regiment at the fair grounds.
                                                          Message 28 of 30 , Jan 3, 2011
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                                                            There were essentially three units at Holly Springs. One at the supply depot, one down town and a lite(not fully manned) Cavalry regiment at the fair grounds. Roughly half the Cavalry was captured while the other half chrged itself free and escaped. A few others hid and were not captured but about 1500 were rounded up, processed and paroled. The union thought 2500 men were there, but some were spread out on guard and other postings.
                                                             
                                                            Grant had left the depot the a day or so earlier and was south of the depot between the enemy and Holly Springs. He had ordered the Cavalry regiment in Holly Springs to find the Raiding Force, and they were up ready to move when the raid hit. That is why they were able to fight their way out.  Van Dorn was spoted east of Holly Spring and word was sent to Grant, but neither soldier sent made it to Report. Grant had earlier sent another Cavalry to find the raid, but that provided another reluctand leader.
                                                             
                                                            Griffith the acting commander of The Whitfield Brigade, the author of the raid had enough intelligence from Cavalry recon that he knew the depot was ripe for picking. He was also an excellent cavalry leader having a militia unit in the south Dallas area before the war that was always ready to chase the local Indians. He had also been involved in the planning of Ross' raid before Pea Ridgee and a highly successful charge in the Indian territory. He was the right leader at the right time as was Van Dorn, who let Griffith lead the charge into Holly Springs.    Bill Nolan Kerrville, TX
                                                             
                                                             
                                                            Fom: william banbruner@...
                                                            To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                                            Sent: Sat, January 1, 2011 1:48:43 PM
                                                            Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Retreat and Fall Back

                                                             

                                                            My question has always been: why was Holly Springs left so vulnerable to a Calvary raid, considering its strategic importance?

                                                            Bill Bruner

                                                            --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "hank9174" <clarkc@...> wrote:
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > very good synopsis.
                                                            >
                                                            > In some ways this is similar to Lee's treatment of Pope along the Rappahannock prior to the battle of 2nd Manassas.
                                                            >
                                                            > This time Hood (in the role of Lee) is trying to prevent/destroy Schofield (in the role of Pope) from combining with Thomas (in the role of McClellan) in the Nashville defenses (playing the role of Washington DC).
                                                            >
                                                            > Of course, Lee then split his army (he had that habit) sending Jackson on an end-run and Little Mac was farther away than Thomas.
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > HankC
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, DORR64OVI@ wrote:
                                                            > >
                                                            > > Once Thomas determines that Hoods intention is to fight his army and not
                                                            > > follow Sherman into GA, Old Paps plan is to concentrate his forces. Until
                                                            > > Hood shows his hand about where he intends to move, either toward Knoxville
                                                            > > or northward into Ky, Thomas prepares to check him either at Murfreesboro or
                                                            > > Chattanooga.
                                                            > > Thomas orders Schofield to move gradually back from Pulaski to Columbia
                                                            > > in case Hoods moves this way. When the telegraph lines get cut between
                                                            > > Thomas and Schofield, Thomas believes at this point that Hoods objective is
                                                            > > Nashville and not Chattanooga.
                                                            > > At Columbia Schofield is fooled by the appearance of Hoods artillery.
                                                            > > He fails to see that it is a trick to hold him in place while Hood crosses
                                                            > > the Duck River and move to cut him off at Spring Hill. After delaying for
                                                            > > 12 some hours, Wilsons cavalry patrols reveal Hoods intentions and
                                                            > > Schofield sends the 4th Corps hastily up the Columbia Pike. Only Hoods own blunder
                                                            > > at Spring Hill in failling to attack saves Schofield from capture and the
                                                            > > Federals march past Hoods campfires on the retreat to Franklin and
                                                            > > Nashville.
                                                            > > When Thomas gets the word that Hood has crossed the Duck River and is
                                                            > > moving north, it is at this point that he orders his forces to concentrate
                                                            > > at Nashville. Schofield is slowly retreating to Franklin where he must
                                                            > > cross the Harpeth River. Thomas orders him to defend Franklin while crossing
                                                            > > and hopes Schofield can hold for three days to allow Smiths reeinforcements
                                                            > > to arrive at Nashville. Schofield replies that he cant hold Franklin and
                                                            > > Thomas then orders him to pull his army back to Nashville.
                                                            > > Approaching Franklin, Hood orders a frontal assault which is repulsed
                                                            > > with heavy losses. Schofield continues his retreat to Nashville after dark
                                                            > > and reaches the cities defenses on Dec 1. Hood follows Schofield to
                                                            > > Nashville, but his losses have weakened his force so that it cannot attack
                                                            > > Thomas. Hood has now lost the critical element of initiative and Thomas has
                                                            > > time to strengthen his forces especially his cavalry. Despite fears of Hoods
                                                            > > intentions and ability to move by Washington and Grant, Thomas waits out
                                                            > > the Dec weather and finally attacks Hood, smashing him over the course of
                                                            > > two days.
                                                            > > So it appears that Schofields moves are a retreat which ultimately
                                                            > > reveal Hoods intentions.
                                                            > >
                                                            > > Kent Dorr
                                                            > >
                                                            > > In a message dated 12/27/2010 10:14:01 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                                                            > > clarkc@ writes:
                                                            > >
                                                            > >
                                                            > > Of course, in Schofield's mind (and his men) there is no withdrawal or
                                                            > > fall back.
                                                            > >
                                                            > > Nashville is his destination from the beginning of the move from Atlanta.
                                                            > >
                                                            > > Thomas considers moving forward to Brentwood but decides to wait for
                                                            > > Smith's divisions and remains concentrated at Nashville - especially with
                                                            > > Forrest's whereabouts unknown.
                                                            > >
                                                            > > A number of garrisons at Chattanooga and northern Alabama are also ordered
                                                            > > to concentrate toward Murfreesboro. These units had been placed to provide
                                                            > > early warning and delay of such a move as Hood's. Once the move is
                                                            > > discovered and well-developed, their mission is over md they are free to be
                                                            > > re-deployed. Whether the new move is backward, forward or sideways is situation
                                                            > > dependent.
                                                            > >
                                                            > > HankC
                                                            > >
                                                            >

                                                          • william
                                                            Thank you Bill, that was very helpful. Bill Bruner
                                                            Message 29 of 30 , Jan 3, 2011
                                                            • 0 Attachment
                                                              Thank you Bill, that was very helpful.

                                                              Bill Bruner

                                                              --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, William Nolan <sixtxcavrgtcsa@...> wrote:
                                                              >
                                                              > There were essentially three units at Holly Springs. One at the supply depot,
                                                              > one down town and a lite(not fully manned) Cavalry regiment at the fair grounds.
                                                              > Roughly half the Cavalry was captured while the other half chrged itself free
                                                              > and escaped. A few others hid and were not captured but about 1500 were rounded
                                                              > up, processed and paroled. The union thought 2500 men were there, but some were
                                                              > spread out on guard and other postings.
                                                              >  
                                                              > Grant had left the depot the a day or so earlier and was south of the depot
                                                              > between the enemy and Holly Springs. He had ordered the Cavalry regiment in
                                                              > Holly Springs to find the Raiding Force, and they were up ready to move when the
                                                              > raid hit. That is why they were able to fight their way out.  Van Dorn was
                                                              > spoted east of Holly Spring and word was sent to Grant, but neither soldier sent
                                                              > made it to Report. Grant had earlier sent another Cavalry to find the raid, but
                                                              > that provided another reluctand leader.
                                                              >  
                                                              > Griffith the acting commander of The Whitfield Brigade, the author of the raid
                                                              > had enough intelligence from Cavalry recon that he knew the depot was ripe for
                                                              > picking. He was also an excellent cavalry leader having a militia unit in the
                                                              > south Dallas area before the war that was always ready to chase the local
                                                              > Indians. He had also been involved in the planning of Ross' raid before Pea
                                                              > Ridgee and a highly successful charge in the Indian territory. He was the right
                                                              > leader at the right time as was Van Dorn, who let Griffith lead the charge into
                                                              > Holly Springs.    Bill Nolan Kerrville, TX
                                                              >  
                                                              >  
                                                              > Fom: william banbruner@...
                                                              > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                                              > Sent: Sat, January 1, 2011 1:48:43 PM
                                                              > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Retreat and Fall Back
                                                              >
                                                              >  
                                                              > My question has always been: why was Holly Springs left so vulnerable to a
                                                              > Calvary raid, considering its strategic importance?
                                                              >
                                                              > Bill Bruner
                                                              >
                                                              > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "hank9174" <clarkc@> wrote:
                                                              > >
                                                              > >
                                                              > > very good synopsis.
                                                              > >
                                                              > > In some ways this is similar to Lee's treatment of Pope along the Rappahannock
                                                              > >prior to the battle of 2nd Manassas.
                                                              > >
                                                              > >
                                                              > > This time Hood (in the role of Lee) is trying to prevent/destroy Schofield (in
                                                              > >the role of Pope) from combining with Thomas (in the role of McClellan) in the
                                                              > >Nashville defenses (playing the role of Washington DC).
                                                              > >
                                                              > >
                                                              > > Of course, Lee then split his army (he had that habit) sending Jackson on an
                                                              > >end-run and Little Mac was farther away than Thomas.
                                                              > >
                                                              > >
                                                              > > HankC
                                                              > >
                                                              > >
                                                              > >
                                                              > > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, DORR64OVI@ wrote:
                                                              > > >
                                                              > > > Once Thomas determines that Hoods intention is to fight his army and not
                                                              > > > follow Sherman into GA, Old Paps plan is to concentrate his forces. Until
                                                              > > > Hood shows his hand about where he intends to move, either toward Knoxville
                                                              > > > or northward into Ky, Thomas prepares to check him either at Murfreesboro or
                                                              >
                                                              > > > Chattanooga.
                                                              > > > Thomas orders Schofield to move gradually back from Pulaski to Columbia
                                                              > > > in case Hoods moves this way. When the telegraph lines get cut between
                                                              > > > Thomas and Schofield, Thomas believes at this point that Hoods objective is
                                                              > > > Nashville and not Chattanooga.
                                                              > > > At Columbia Schofield is fooled by the appearance of Hoods artillery.
                                                              > > > He fails to see that it is a trick to hold him in place while Hood crosses
                                                              > > > the Duck River and move to cut him off at Spring Hill. After delaying for
                                                              > > > 12 some hours, Wilsons cavalry patrols reveal Hoods intentions and
                                                              > > > Schofield sends the 4th Corps hastily up the Columbia Pike. Only Hoods own
                                                              > >blunder
                                                              > >
                                                              > > > at Spring Hill in failling to attack saves Schofield from capture and the
                                                              > > > Federals march past Hoods campfires on the retreat to Franklin and
                                                              > > > Nashville.
                                                              > > > When Thomas gets the word that Hood has crossed the Duck River and is
                                                              > > > moving north, it is at this point that he orders his forces to concentrate
                                                              > > > at Nashville. Schofield is slowly retreating to Franklin where he must
                                                              > > > cross the Harpeth River. Thomas orders him to defend Franklin while crossing
                                                              >
                                                              > > > and hopes Schofield can hold for three days to allow Smiths reeinforcements
                                                              > > > to arrive at Nashville. Schofield replies that he cant hold Franklin and
                                                              > > > Thomas then orders him to pull his army back to Nashville.
                                                              > > > Approaching Franklin, Hood orders a frontal assault which is repulsed
                                                              > > > with heavy losses. Schofield continues his retreat to Nashville after dark
                                                              > > > and reaches the cities defenses on Dec 1. Hood follows Schofield to
                                                              > > > Nashville, but his losses have weakened his force so that it cannot attack
                                                              > > > Thomas. Hood has now lost the critical element of initiative and Thomas has
                                                              > > > time to strengthen his forces especially his cavalry. Despite fears of Hoods
                                                              >
                                                              > > > intentions and ability to move by Washington and Grant, Thomas waits out
                                                              > > > the Dec weather and finally attacks Hood, smashing him over the course of
                                                              > > > two days.
                                                              > > > So it appears that Schofields moves are a retreat which ultimately
                                                              > > > reveal Hoods intentions.
                                                              > > >
                                                              > > > Kent Dorr
                                                              > > >
                                                              > > > In a message dated 12/27/2010 10:14:01 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                                                              > > > clarkc@ writes:
                                                              > > >
                                                              > > >
                                                              > > > Of course, in Schofield's mind (and his men) there is no withdrawal or
                                                              > > > fall back.
                                                              > > >
                                                              > > > Nashville is his destination from the beginning of the move from Atlanta.
                                                              > > >
                                                              > > > Thomas considers moving forward to Brentwood but decides to wait for
                                                              > > > Smith's divisions and remains concentrated at Nashville - especially with
                                                              > > > Forrest's whereabouts unknown.
                                                              > > >
                                                              > > > A number of garrisons at Chattanooga and northern Alabama are also ordered
                                                              > > > to concentrate toward Murfreesboro. These units had been placed to provide
                                                              > > > early warning and delay of such a move as Hood's. Once the move is
                                                              > > > discovered and well-developed, their mission is over md they are free to be
                                                              > > > re-deployed. Whether the new move is backward, forward or sideways is
                                                              > >situation
                                                              > >
                                                              > > > dependent.
                                                              > > >
                                                              > > > HankC
                                                              > > >
                                                              > >
                                                              >
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