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yesterday in history

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  • hank9174
    146 years ago George H. Thomas created his magnum opus, his masterpiece, his pièce de résistance: the battle of nashville. If any event truly sealed the fate
    Message 1 of 14 , Dec 17, 2010
      146 years ago George H. Thomas created his magnum opus, his masterpiece, his pièce de résistance: the battle of nashville.

      If any event truly sealed the fate of the CSA it was the virtual destruction of the AoT...


      HankC

      p.s. I kind of miss old joseph rose ;)
    • Ronald black
      What about Joseph Rose? Ron ... From: hank9174 To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, December 17, 2010 3:41 PM Subject: [civilwarwest] yesterday in
      Message 2 of 14 , Dec 17, 2010
        What about Joseph Rose?
        Ron
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: hank9174
        Sent: Friday, December 17, 2010 3:41 PM
        Subject: [civilwarwest] yesterday in history

         


        146 years ago George H. Thomas created his magnum opus, his masterpiece, his pièce de résistance: the battle of nashville.

        If any event truly sealed the fate of the CSA it was the virtual destruction of the AoT...

        HankC

        p.s. I kind of miss old joseph rose ;)


        No virus found in this message.
        Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
        Version: 10.0.1170 / Virus Database: 1435/3321 - Release Date: 12/17/10

      • jlawrence@kc.rr.com
        Well said. Regards, Jack Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ... From: hank9174 Sender: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 17
        Message 3 of 14 , Dec 17, 2010
          Well said.
          Regards,
          Jack
          Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

          -----Original Message-----
          From: "hank9174" <clarkc@...>
          Sender: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 20:41:44
          To: <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
          Reply-To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [civilwarwest] yesterday in history


          146 years ago George H. Thomas created his magnum opus, his masterpiece, his pièce de résistance: the battle of nashville.

          If any event truly sealed the fate of the CSA it was the virtual destruction of the AoT...


          HankC

          p.s. I kind of miss old joseph rose ;)



          ------------------------------------

          Yahoo! Groups Links
        • chris bryant
          I d say it was pretty well sealed before that;any other opinions?                       Chris Bryant ... From: hank9174
          Message 4 of 14 , Dec 17, 2010

            I'd say it was pretty well sealed before that;any other opinions?
                                  Chris Bryant
            --- On Fri, 12/17/10, hank9174 <clarkc@...> wrote:

            From: hank9174 <clarkc@...>
            Subject: [civilwarwest] yesterday in history
            To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Friday, December 17, 2010, 12:41 PM

             

            146 years ago George H. Thomas created his magnum opus, his masterpiece, his pièce de résistance: the battle of nashville.

            If any event truly sealed the fate of the CSA it was the virtual destruction of the AoT...

            HankC

            p.s. I kind of miss old joseph rose ;)


          • Bob Taubman
            He is still around.  He was/is a true supporter of GHT, along with some other like minded people, myself included.   ________________________________ From:
            Message 5 of 14 , Dec 17, 2010
              He is still around.  He was/is a true supporter of GHT, along with some other like minded people, myself included.

               


              From: hank9174 <clarkc@...>
              To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Fri, December 17, 2010 3:41:44 PM
              Subject: [civilwarwest] yesterday in history


              146 years ago George H. Thomas created his magnum opus, his masterpiece, his pièce de résistance: the battle of nashville.

              If any event truly sealed the fate of the CSA it was the virtual destruction of the AoT...


              HankC

              p.s. I kind of miss old joseph rose ;)



              ------------------------------------

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            • Bob Huddleston
              In our discussion of the importance of George Thomas, the statement is made that he is unique because he destroyed a Civil War army. Leaving aside the thought
              Message 6 of 14 , Dec 17, 2010
                In our discussion of the importance of George Thomas, the statement is
                made that he is unique because he destroyed a Civil War army. Leaving
                aside the thought that if that is the sign of greatness, then John Bell
                Hood should be considered the greatest general of all time :>) I did
                some checking in the various secondary sources on the two battles of
                Franklin and Nashville. What I found, and please correct me if my
                figures are wrong, was that the destruction of the AoT was done at
                Franklin and that it would appear that the Rebels at Nashville were
                hardly destroyed, not if they had twenty something thousand when Thomas
                attacked and still had 20,000 a month or so later.

                At Franklin:

                Schofield:23,939

                Hood started north with about approximately 40,000 maximum, but only had
                about 29,000 left at Franklin (there are no decent Confederate numbers)

                Losses at Franklin, November 30, 1864:

                Schofield:2326

                Hood:6200

                At Nashville, December 15-16, 1864:

                Thomas: 52,000-60,000 (I am startled at the disagreement over the number
                of men Thomas had available!)

                Hood:22,000-25,000

                Casualties:

                Thomas: 3,061 killed, wounded and missing.

                Hood: No reports – but there is agreement that Thomas captured 4462
                Confederates and that, when the Army of Tennessee reached Tupelo at the
                beginning of 1865, it had about 20,000 men.

                Take care,

                Bob

                Judy and Bob Huddleston
                10643 Sperry Street
                Northglenn, CO 80234-3612
                Huddleston.r@...

                “There must be more historians of the Civil War than there were generals fighting it, and, of the two groups, the historians are the more belligerent.” David Donald, “Refighting the Civil War,” Lincoln Reconsidered (New York, 1956), 82.


                On 12/17/2010 3:39 PM, chris bryant wrote:
                >
                >
                > I'd say it was pretty well sealed before that;any other opinions?
                > Chris Bryant
                > --- On *Fri, 12/17/10, hank9174 /<clarkc@...>/* wrote:
                >
                >
                > From: hank9174 <clarkc@...>
                > Subject: [civilwarwest] yesterday in history
                > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                > Date: Friday, December 17, 2010, 12:41 PM
                >
                >
                > 146 years ago George H. Thomas created his magnum opus, his
                > masterpiece, his pièce de résistance: the battle of nashville.
                >
                > If any event truly sealed the fate of the CSA it was the virtual
                > destruction of the AoT...
                >
                > HankC
                >
                > p.s. I kind of miss old joseph rose ;)
                >
                >
                >
              • Jack Lawrence
                This is an old argument. No one says cannae when talking about Thomas. But he had a habit of turning back assaults and then pursuing a retreating enemy ( under
                Message 7 of 14 , Dec 18, 2010
                  This is an old argument.

                  No one says cannae when talking about Thomas.

                  But he had a habit of turning back assaults and then pursuing a retreating
                  enemy ( under modern doctrine this is de rigor) to the point that it was
                  rendered combat ineffective to the point that it had to be reconstituted and
                  rearmed.

                  That's what Thomas did. No matter how many survivors, the opposing force was
                  destroyed.

                  Regards,

                  Jack

                  Amateur military historians study units an numbers. Professional military
                  historians study battles.
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Bob Huddleston" <huddleston.r@...>
                  To: <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Friday, December 17, 2010 7:53 PM
                  Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] yesterday in history


                  >
                  > In our discussion of the importance of George Thomas, the statement is
                  > made that he is unique because he destroyed a Civil War army. Leaving
                  > aside the thought that if that is the sign of greatness, then John Bell
                  > Hood should be considered the greatest general of all time :>) I did
                  > some checking in the various secondary sources on the two battles of
                  > Franklin and Nashville. What I found, and please correct me if my
                  > figures are wrong, was that the destruction of the AoT was done at
                  > Franklin and that it would appear that the Rebels at Nashville were
                  > hardly destroyed, not if they had twenty something thousand when Thomas
                  > attacked and still had 20,000 a month or so later.
                  >
                  > At Franklin:
                  >
                  > Schofield:23,939
                  >
                  > Hood started north with about approximately 40,000 maximum, but only had
                  > about 29,000 left at Franklin (there are no decent Confederate numbers)
                  >
                  > Losses at Franklin, November 30, 1864:
                  >
                  > Schofield:2326
                  >
                  > Hood:6200
                  >
                  > At Nashville, December 15-16, 1864:
                  >
                  > Thomas: 52,000-60,000 (I am startled at the disagreement over the number
                  > of men Thomas had available!)
                  >
                  > Hood:22,000-25,000
                  >
                  > Casualties:
                  >
                  > Thomas: 3,061 killed, wounded and missing.
                  >
                  > Hood: No reports – but there is agreement that Thomas captured 4462
                  > Confederates and that, when the Army of Tennessee reached Tupelo at the
                  > beginning of 1865, it had about 20,000 men.
                  >
                  > Take care,
                  >
                  > Bob
                  >
                  > Judy and Bob Huddleston
                  > 10643 Sperry Street
                  > Northglenn, CO 80234-3612
                  > Huddleston.r@...
                  >
                  > “There must be more historians of the Civil War than there were generals
                  > fighting it, and, of the two groups, the historians are the more
                  > belligerent.” David Donald, “Refighting the Civil War,” Lincoln
                  > Reconsidered (New York, 1956), 82.
                  >
                  >
                  > On 12/17/2010 3:39 PM, chris bryant wrote:
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> I'd say it was pretty well sealed before that;any other opinions?
                  >> Chris Bryant
                  >> --- On *Fri, 12/17/10, hank9174 /<clarkc@...>/* wrote:
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> From: hank9174 <clarkc@...>
                  >> Subject: [civilwarwest] yesterday in history
                  >> To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                  >> Date: Friday, December 17, 2010, 12:41 PM
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> 146 years ago George H. Thomas created his magnum opus, his
                  >> masterpiece, his pièce de résistance: the battle of nashville.
                  >>
                  >> If any event truly sealed the fate of the CSA it was the virtual
                  >> destruction of the AoT...
                  >>
                  >> HankC
                  >>
                  >> p.s. I kind of miss old joseph rose ;)
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • keeno2@aol.com
                  Hood: No reports – but there is agreement that Thomas captured 4462 onfederates and that, when the Army of Tennessee reached Tupelo at the eginning of 1865,
                  Message 8 of 14 , Dec 19, 2010

                    Hood: No reports – but there is agreement that Thomas captured 4462 
                    Confederates and that, when the Army of Tennessee reached Tupelo at the 
                    beginning of 1865, it had about 20,000 men.
                    Hood likely picked up those extra men on the way back from those he dropped off on the way north.



                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Bob Huddleston <huddleston.r@...>
                    To: civilwarwest <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Fri, Dec 17, 2010 7:55 pm
                    Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] yesterday in history

                    
                    In our discussion of the importance of George Thomas, the statement is 
                    made that he is unique because he destroyed a Civil War army. Leaving 
                    aside the thought that if that is the sign of greatness, then John Bell 
                    Hood should be considered the greatest general of all time :>) I did 
                    some checking in the various secondary sources on the two battles of 
                    Franklin and Nashville. What I found, and please correct me if my 
                    figures are wrong, was that the destruction of the AoT was done at 
                    Franklin and that it would appear that the Rebels at Nashville were 
                    hardly destroyed, not if they had twenty something thousand when Thomas 
                    attacked and still had 20,000 a month or so later.
                    
                    At Franklin:
                    
                    Schofield:23,939
                    
                    Hood started north with about approximately 40,000 maximum, but only had 
                    about 29,000 left at Franklin (there are no decent Confederate numbers)
                    
                    Losses at Franklin, November 30, 1864:
                    
                    Schofield:2326
                    
                    Hood:6200
                    
                    At Nashville, December 15-16, 1864:
                    
                    Thomas: 52,000-60,000 (I am startled at the disagreement over the number 
                    of men Thomas had available!)
                    
                    Hood:22,000-25,000
                    
                    Casualties:
                    
                    Thomas: 3,061 killed, wounded and missing.
                    
                    Hood: No reports – but there is agreement that Thomas captured 4462 
                    Confederates and that, when the Army of Tennessee reached Tupelo at the 
                    beginning of 1865, it had about 20,000 men.
                    
                    Take care,
                    
                    Bob
                    
                    Judy and Bob Huddleston
                    10643 Sperry Street
                    Northglenn, CO  80234-3612
                    Huddleston.r@...
                    
                    “There must be more historians of the Civil War than there were generals 
                    fighting it, and, of the two groups, the historians are the more belligerent.” 
                    David Donald, “Refighting the Civil War,” Lincoln Reconsidered (New York, 1956), 
                    82.
                    
                    
                    On 12/17/2010 3:39 PM, chris bryant wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > I'd say it was pretty well sealed before that;any other opinions?
                    >                       Chris Bryant
                    > --- On *Fri, 12/17/10, hank9174 /<clarkc@...>/* wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >     From: hank9174 <clarkc@...>
                    >     Subject: [civilwarwest] yesterday in history
                    >     To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                    >     Date: Friday, December 17, 2010, 12:41 PM
                    >
                    >
                    >     146 years ago George H. Thomas created his magnum opus, his
                    >     masterpiece, his pièce de résistance: the battle of nashville.
                    >
                    >     If any event truly sealed the fate of the CSA it was the virtual
                    >     destruction of the AoT...
                    >
                    >     HankC
                    >
                    >     p.s. I kind of miss old joseph rose ;)
                    >
                    >
                    > 
                    
                    
                    ------------------------------------
                    
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                  • Bob Huddleston
                    Thomas commanded in only two battles: Mill Springs, a small (4,500 Federals to about 5900 Rebels) action where the total casualties were about 246 Union to 533
                    Message 9 of 14 , Dec 19, 2010
                      Thomas commanded in only two battles: Mill Springs, a small (4,500
                      Federals to about 5900 Rebels) action where the total casualties were
                      about 246 Union to 533 Confederate. Hardly much of a battle, since
                      Thomas was forced to fall back after it was over. Thomas commanded some
                      ten regiments and Crittenden eight; roughly two divisions fighting it
                      out. Thomas casualties were low – but then so were Crittenden’s.

                      From Mill Springs, January 19, 1862, until Nashville, almost exactly
                      three years later, Thomas was never in command of a single battle; he
                      was always in the position of having someone immediately over him, as
                      the commander – and the one responsible for the victory or the defeat.

                      I already posted the box score for Nashville.

                      Take care,

                      Bob

                      Judy and Bob Huddleston
                      10643 Sperry Street
                      Northglenn, CO 80234-3612
                      Huddleston.r@...

                      “There must be more historians of the Civil War than there were generals
                      fighting it, and, of the two groups, the historians are the more
                      belligerent.” David Donald, “Refighting the Civil War,” Lincoln
                      Reconsidered (New York, 1956), 82.

                      On 12/18/2010 7:39 AM, Jack Lawrence wrote:
                      > This is an old argument.
                      >
                      > No one says cannae when talking about Thomas.
                      >
                      > But he had a habit of turning back assaults and then pursuing a retreating
                      > enemy ( under modern doctrine this is de rigor) to the point that it was
                      > rendered combat ineffective to the point that it had to be reconstituted
                      > and
                      > rearmed.
                      >
                      > That's what Thomas did. No matter how many survivors, the opposing force
                      > was
                      > destroyed.
                      >
                      > Regards,
                      >
                      > Jack
                      >
                      > Amateur military historians study units an numbers. Professional military
                      > historians study battles.
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: "Bob Huddleston" <huddleston.r@...
                      > <mailto:huddleston.r%40comcast.net>>
                      > To: <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com <mailto:civilwarwest%40yahoogroups.com>>
                      > Sent: Friday, December 17, 2010 7:53 PM
                      > Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] yesterday in history
                      >
                      > >
                      > > In our discussion of the importance of George Thomas, the statement is
                      > > made that he is unique because he destroyed a Civil War army. Leaving
                      > > aside the thought that if that is the sign of greatness, then John Bell
                      > > Hood should be considered the greatest general of all time :>) I did
                      > > some checking in the various secondary sources on the two battles of
                      > > Franklin and Nashville. What I found, and please correct me if my
                      > > figures are wrong, was that the destruction of the AoT was done at
                      > > Franklin and that it would appear that the Rebels at Nashville were
                      > > hardly destroyed, not if they had twenty something thousand when Thomas
                      > > attacked and still had 20,000 a month or so later.
                      > >
                      > > At Franklin:
                      > >
                      > > Schofield:23,939
                      > >
                      > > Hood started north with about approximately 40,000 maximum, but only had
                      > > about 29,000 left at Franklin (there are no decent Confederate numbers)
                      > >
                      > > Losses at Franklin, November 30, 1864:
                      > >
                      > > Schofield:2326
                      > >
                      > > Hood:6200
                      > >
                      > > At Nashville, December 15-16, 1864:
                      > >
                      > > Thomas: 52,000-60,000 (I am startled at the disagreement over the number
                      > > of men Thomas had available!)
                      > >
                      > > Hood:22,000-25,000
                      > >
                      > > Casualties:
                      > >
                      > > Thomas: 3,061 killed, wounded and missing.
                      > >
                      > > Hood: No reports – but there is agreement that Thomas captured 4462
                      > > Confederates and that, when the Army of Tennessee reached Tupelo at the
                      > > beginning of 1865, it had about 20,000 men.
                      > >
                      > > Take care,
                      > >
                      > > Bob
                      > >
                      > > Judy and Bob Huddleston
                      > > 10643 Sperry Street
                      > > Northglenn, CO 80234-3612
                      > > Huddleston.r@... <mailto:Huddleston.r%40comcast.net>
                      > >
                      > > “There must be more historians of the Civil War than there were generals
                      > > fighting it, and, of the two groups, the historians are the more
                      > > belligerent.” David Donald, “Refighting the Civil War,” Lincoln
                      > > Reconsidered (New York, 1956), 82.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > On 12/17/2010 3:39 PM, chris bryant wrote:
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >> I'd say it was pretty well sealed before that;any other opinions?
                      > >> Chris Bryant
                      > >> --- On *Fri, 12/17/10, hank9174 /<clarkc@...
                      > <mailto:clarkc%40missouri.edu>>/* wrote:
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >> From: hank9174 <clarkc@... <mailto:clarkc%40missouri.edu>>
                      > >> Subject: [civilwarwest] yesterday in history
                      > >> To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com <mailto:civilwarwest%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > >> Date: Friday, December 17, 2010, 12:41 PM
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >> 146 years ago George H. Thomas created his magnum opus, his
                      > >> masterpiece, his pièce de résistance: the battle of nashville.
                      > >>
                      > >> If any event truly sealed the fate of the CSA it was the virtual
                      > >> destruction of the AoT...
                      > >>
                      > >> HankC
                      > >>
                      > >> p.s. I kind of miss old joseph rose ;)
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ------------------------------------
                      > >
                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                    • Bob Huddleston
                      My points about Thomas are not meant to demean or lessen his very real accomplishments. Here is one: The interments [at Chattanooga National Cemetery] are
                      Message 10 of 14 , Dec 19, 2010
                        My points about Thomas are not meant to demean or lessen his very real
                        accomplishments. Here is one:

                        "The interments [at Chattanooga National Cemetery] are made without
                        regard to States, as we think justly, though members of same regiments
                        are kept together as far as practicable, on a good suggestion of a
                        distinguished Major-General, as we learn, that “there had been [319]
                        quite enough of State Rights; that these soldiers had died fighting for
                        the Union, against rebellious States, and now we had better mix them up
                        and nationalize them a little.” He thought our poor fellows would like
                        that best, if they could have a voice in the matter, and we heartily
                        concur in the opinion….

                        "It stands out a truly Union and national work as far as completed,
                        simple but grand in its conception and execution; and General Thomas
                        well deserves high praise and the united thanks of the army and the
                        country for what has there been done so promptly and appropriately for
                        our slain and dead soldiery."

                        James F. Russling, “National Cemeteries,” Harper’s New Monthly Magazine.
                        Volume 33, Issue 195, (August 1866), pp. 318-319.


                        Take care,

                        Bob

                        Judy and Bob Huddleston
                        10643 Sperry Street
                        Northglenn, CO 80234-3612
                        Huddleston.r@...

                        “There must be more historians of the Civil War than there were generals
                        fighting it, and, of the two groups, the historians are the more
                        belligerent.” David Donald, “Refighting the Civil War,” Lincoln
                        Reconsidered (New York, 1956), 82.
                      • Jack Lawrence
                        And both times he pursued an attacking bforce into disintergation. ... From: Bob Huddleston To:
                        Message 11 of 14 , Dec 20, 2010
                          And both times he pursued an attacking bforce into disintergation.
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Bob Huddleston" <huddleston.r@...>
                          To: <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2010 11:07 PM
                          Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] yesterday in history


                          > Thomas commanded in only two battles: Mill Springs, a small (4,500
                          > Federals to about 5900 Rebels) action where the total casualties were
                          > about 246 Union to 533 Confederate. Hardly much of a battle, since
                          > Thomas was forced to fall back after it was over. Thomas commanded some
                          > ten regiments and Crittenden eight; roughly two divisions fighting it
                          > out. Thomas casualties were low – but then so were Crittenden’s.
                          >
                          > From Mill Springs, January 19, 1862, until Nashville, almost exactly
                          > three years later, Thomas was never in command of a single battle; he
                          > was always in the position of having someone immediately over him, as
                          > the commander – and the one responsible for the victory or the defeat.
                          >
                          > I already posted the box score for Nashville.
                          >
                          > Take care,
                          >
                          > Bob
                          >
                          > Judy and Bob Huddleston
                          > 10643 Sperry Street
                          > Northglenn, CO 80234-3612
                          > Huddleston.r@...
                          >
                          > “There must be more historians of the Civil War than there were generals
                          > fighting it, and, of the two groups, the historians are the more
                          > belligerent.” David Donald, “Refighting the Civil War,” Lincoln
                          > Reconsidered (New York, 1956), 82.
                          >
                          > On 12/18/2010 7:39 AM, Jack Lawrence wrote:
                          >> This is an old argument.
                          >>
                          >> No one says cannae when talking about Thomas.
                          >>
                          >> But he had a habit of turning back assaults and then pursuing a
                          >> retreating
                          >> enemy ( under modern doctrine this is de rigor) to the point that it was
                          >> rendered combat ineffective to the point that it had to be reconstituted
                          >> and
                          >> rearmed.
                          >>
                          >> That's what Thomas did. No matter how many survivors, the opposing force
                          >> was
                          >> destroyed.
                          >>
                          >> Regards,
                          >>
                          >> Jack
                          >>
                          >> Amateur military historians study units an numbers. Professional military
                          >> historians study battles.
                          >> ----- Original Message -----
                          >> From: "Bob Huddleston" <huddleston.r@...
                          >> <mailto:huddleston.r%40comcast.net>>
                          >> To: <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                          >> <mailto:civilwarwest%40yahoogroups.com>>
                          >> Sent: Friday, December 17, 2010 7:53 PM
                          >> Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] yesterday in history
                          >>
                          >> >
                          >> > In our discussion of the importance of George Thomas, the statement is
                          >> > made that he is unique because he destroyed a Civil War army. Leaving
                          >> > aside the thought that if that is the sign of greatness, then John
                          >> Bell
                          >> > Hood should be considered the greatest general of all time :>) I did
                          >> > some checking in the various secondary sources on the two battles of
                          >> > Franklin and Nashville. What I found, and please correct me if my
                          >> > figures are wrong, was that the destruction of the AoT was done at
                          >> > Franklin and that it would appear that the Rebels at Nashville were
                          >> > hardly destroyed, not if they had twenty something thousand when
                          >> Thomas
                          >> > attacked and still had 20,000 a month or so later.
                          >> >
                          >> > At Franklin:
                          >> >
                          >> > Schofield:23,939
                          >> >
                          >> > Hood started north with about approximately 40,000 maximum, but only
                          >> had
                          >> > about 29,000 left at Franklin (there are no decent Confederate
                          >> numbers)
                          >> >
                          >> > Losses at Franklin, November 30, 1864:
                          >> >
                          >> > Schofield:2326
                          >> >
                          >> > Hood:6200
                          >> >
                          >> > At Nashville, December 15-16, 1864:
                          >> >
                          >> > Thomas: 52,000-60,000 (I am startled at the disagreement over the
                          >> number
                          >> > of men Thomas had available!)
                          >> >
                          >> > Hood:22,000-25,000
                          >> >
                          >> > Casualties:
                          >> >
                          >> > Thomas: 3,061 killed, wounded and missing.
                          >> >
                          >> > Hood: No reports – but there is agreement that Thomas captured 4462
                          >> > Confederates and that, when the Army of Tennessee reached Tupelo at
                          >> the
                          >> > beginning of 1865, it had about 20,000 men.
                          >> >
                          >> > Take care,
                          >> >
                          >> > Bob
                          >> >
                          >> > Judy and Bob Huddleston
                          >> > 10643 Sperry Street
                          >> > Northglenn, CO 80234-3612
                          >> > Huddleston.r@... <mailto:Huddleston.r%40comcast.net>
                          >> >
                          >> > “There must be more historians of the Civil War than there were
                          >> generals
                          >> > fighting it, and, of the two groups, the historians are the more
                          >> > belligerent.” David Donald, “Refighting the Civil War,” Lincoln
                          >> > Reconsidered (New York, 1956), 82.
                          >> >
                          >> >
                          >> > On 12/17/2010 3:39 PM, chris bryant wrote:
                          >> >>
                          >> >>
                          >> >> I'd say it was pretty well sealed before that;any other opinions?
                          >> >> Chris Bryant
                          >> >> --- On *Fri, 12/17/10, hank9174 /<clarkc@...
                          >> <mailto:clarkc%40missouri.edu>>/* wrote:
                          >> >>
                          >> >>
                          >> >> From: hank9174 <clarkc@... <mailto:clarkc%40missouri.edu>>
                          >> >> Subject: [civilwarwest] yesterday in history
                          >> >> To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                          >> <mailto:civilwarwest%40yahoogroups.com>
                          >> >> Date: Friday, December 17, 2010, 12:41 PM
                          >> >>
                          >> >>
                          >> >> 146 years ago George H. Thomas created his magnum opus, his
                          >> >> masterpiece, his pièce de résistance: the battle of nashville.
                          >> >>
                          >> >> If any event truly sealed the fate of the CSA it was the virtual
                          >> >> destruction of the AoT...
                          >> >>
                          >> >> HankC
                          >> >>
                          >> >> p.s. I kind of miss old joseph rose ;)
                          >> >>
                          >> >>
                          >> >>
                          >> >
                          >> >
                          >> > ------------------------------------
                          >> >
                          >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >> >
                          >> >
                          >> >
                          >> >
                          >>
                          >>
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • Bob Taubman
                          Here we go again .  Thomas, according to Mr. Huddleston, is forced to fall back .  I wonder why he would be forced to fall back when in fact After it was
                          Message 12 of 14 , Dec 20, 2010
                            Here we go again .  Thomas, according to Mr. Huddleston, is "forced to fall back".  I wonder why he would be forced to fall back when in fact "After it was clear that the enemy had abandoned his entrenchments in great haste....", General George H. Thomas, the Idomitable Warrior,  p.180, author; Wilbur Thomas.   Also, p.179, "A large quantity of ammunition, commissary stores, camp tools, and garrsion eqiupment, in addition to six Confederate flags, were also found by the victors."  Also, p.179, "Although the Confederates escaped, the opposite bank displayed evidence of their flight by the number of wagons left behind;  and since the boats use in crossing were destroyed, an immediate chase was impossible, although during the day the Fourteenth Ohio succeeded in effecting a crossing for reconnaissance purposes and to collect enemy property left behind."
                             
                            Mr. Huddleston has in previous correspondence on this topic,  used the term "retreated" in relation to Thomas's actions at Mill Springs.  Now the wording is "forced to fall back."  Why would he have been forced to fall back when the enemy had abandoned the field;  Thomas's forces were able to examine the enemy's entrenchments, and even crossed the river "for reconnaissance purposes and to collect enemy property left behind." 
                             
                            ISTM leaving the field of battle after successfully routing the enemy, hardly qualifies as a "retreat" or being "forced to fall back."   How many days, months, etc was he to remain at Mill Springs field of battle?
                             
                            Some collaboration of a "retreat" or "forced to fall back" situation would be appreciated. 
                             

                             


                            From: Bob Huddleston <huddleston.r@...>
                            To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Mon, December 20, 2010 12:07:36 AM
                            Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] yesterday in history

                            Thomas commanded in only two battles: Mill Springs, a small (4,500
                            Federals to about 5900 Rebels) action where the total casualties were
                            about 246 Union to 533 Confederate. Hardly much of a battle, since
                            Thomas was forced to fall back after it was over. Thomas commanded some
                            ten regiments and Crittenden eight; roughly two divisions fighting it
                            out. Thomas casualties were low – but then so were Crittenden’s.

                            From Mill Springs, January 19, 1862, until Nashville, almost exactly
                            three years later, Thomas was never in command of a single battle; he
                            was always in the position of having someone immediately over him, as
                            the commander – and the one responsible for the victory or the defeat.

                            I already posted the box score for Nashville.

                            Take care,

                            Bob

                            Judy and Bob Huddleston
                            10643 Sperry Street
                            Northglenn, CO  80234-3612
                            Huddleston.r@...

                            “There must be more historians of the Civil War than there were generals
                            fighting it, and, of the two groups, the historians are the more
                            belligerent.” David Donald, “Refighting the Civil War,” Lincoln
                            Reconsidered (New York, 1956), 82.

                            On 12/18/2010 7:39 AM, Jack Lawrence wrote:
                            > This is an old argument.
                            >
                            > No one says cannae when talking about Thomas.
                            >
                            > But he had a habit of turning back assaults and then pursuing a retreating
                            > enemy ( under modern doctrine this is de rigor) to the point that it was
                            > rendered combat ineffective to the point that it had to be reconstituted
                            > and
                            > rearmed.
                            >
                            > That's what Thomas did. No matter how many survivors, the opposing force
                            > was
                            > destroyed.
                            >
                            > Regards,
                            >
                            > Jack
                            >
                            > Amateur military historians study units an numbers. Professional military
                            > historians study battles.
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: "Bob Huddleston" <huddleston.r@...
                            > <mailto:huddleston.r%40comcast.net>>
                            > To: <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com <mailto:civilwarwest%40yahoogroups.com>>
                            > Sent: Friday, December 17, 2010 7:53 PM
                            > Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] yesterday in history
                            >
                            >  >
                            >  > In our discussion of the importance of George Thomas, the statement is
                            >  > made that he is unique because he destroyed a Civil War army. Leaving
                            >  > aside the thought that if that is the sign of greatness, then John Bell
                            >  > Hood should be considered the greatest general of all time :>) I did
                            >  > some checking in the various secondary sources on the two battles of
                            >  > Franklin and Nashville. What I found, and please correct me if my
                            >  > figures are wrong, was that the destruction of the AoT was done at
                            >  > Franklin and that it would appear that the Rebels at Nashville were
                            >  > hardly destroyed, not if they had twenty something thousand when Thomas
                            >  > attacked and still had 20,000 a month or so later.
                            >  >
                            >  > At Franklin:
                            >  >
                            >  > Schofield:23,939
                            >  >
                            >  > Hood started north with about approximately 40,000 maximum, but only had
                            >  > about 29,000 left at Franklin (there are no decent Confederate numbers)
                            >  >
                            >  > Losses at Franklin, November 30, 1864:
                            >  >
                            >  > Schofield:2326
                            >  >
                            >  > Hood:6200
                            >  >
                            >  > At Nashville, December 15-16, 1864:
                            >  >
                            >  > Thomas: 52,000-60,000 (I am startled at the disagreement over the number
                            >  > of men Thomas had available!)
                            >  >
                            >  > Hood:22,000-25,000
                            >  >
                            >  > Casualties:
                            >  >
                            >  > Thomas: 3,061 killed, wounded and missing.
                            >  >
                            >  > Hood: No reports – but there is agreement that Thomas captured 4462
                            >  > Confederates and that, when the Army of Tennessee reached Tupelo at the
                            >  > beginning of 1865, it had about 20,000 men.
                            >  >
                            >  > Take care,
                            >  >
                            >  > Bob
                            >  >
                            >  > Judy and Bob Huddleston
                            >  > 10643 Sperry Street
                            >  > Northglenn, CO 80234-3612
                            >  > Huddleston.r@... <mailto:Huddleston.r%40comcast.net>
                            >  >
                            >  > “There must be more historians of the Civil War than there were generals
                            >  > fighting it, and, of the two groups, the historians are the more
                            >  > belligerent.” David Donald, “Refighting the Civil War,” Lincoln
                            >  > Reconsidered (New York, 1956), 82.
                            >  >
                            >  >
                            >  > On 12/17/2010 3:39 PM, chris bryant wrote:
                            >  >>
                            >  >>
                            >  >> I'd say it was pretty well sealed before that;any other opinions?
                            >  >> Chris Bryant
                            >  >> --- On *Fri, 12/17/10, hank9174 /<clarkc@...
                            > <mailto:clarkc%40missouri.edu>>/* wrote:
                            >  >>
                            >  >>
                            >  >> From: hank9174 <clarkc@... <mailto:clarkc%40missouri.edu>>
                            >  >> Subject: [civilwarwest] yesterday in history
                            >  >> To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com <mailto:civilwarwest%40yahoogroups.com>
                            >  >> Date: Friday, December 17, 2010, 12:41 PM
                            >  >>
                            >  >>
                            >  >> 146 years ago George H. Thomas created his magnum opus, his
                            >  >> masterpiece, his pièce de résistance: the battle of nashville.
                            >  >>
                            >  >> If any event truly sealed the fate of the CSA it was the virtual
                            >  >> destruction of the AoT...
                            >  >>
                            >  >> HankC
                            >  >>
                            >  >> p.s. I kind of miss old joseph rose ;)
                            >  >>
                            >  >>
                            >  >>
                            >  >
                            >  >
                            >  > ------------------------------------
                            >  >
                            >  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >  >
                            >  >
                            >  >
                            >  >
                            >
                            >


                            ------------------------------------

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                          • Bob Huddleston
                            See Einholf, George Thomas: Virginian for the Union, p. 120-124 for an analysis of what Thomas did at Mill Springs and the fact that Thomas failed to follow up
                            Message 13 of 14 , Dec 20, 2010
                              See Einholf, George Thomas: Virginian for the Union, p. 120-124 for an
                              analysis of what Thomas did at Mill Springs and the fact that Thomas
                              failed to follow up the victory, allowing Zollicoffer to escape. When
                              Speed Fry asked Thomas why he did not send a demand for the Confederates
                              to escape, “Thomas thought for a moment and then replied, ‘Hang it, Fry!
                              I never once thought of it!” (p. 120) See also Larry Daniel, Days of
                              Glory, pp. 54-56, where he points out that Buell was pushing Thomas to
                              pursue and Thomas was stalling..

                              Mind you, I am not saying that Thomas did not win and win impressively,
                              but he did not destroy Zollicoffer, nor did he pursue him. Instead he
                              “fell back” or “retreated,” pick your word. He was, BTW,, in my opinion,
                              doing the correct thing – the hills of Appalachia were a nightmare to
                              maneuver in during the Civil War and Thomas was right to “fall back”.
                              But let’s don’t call it “destruction of an enemy army”: whatever
                              destruction occurred to Zollicoffer occurred because he was also trying
                              to retreat through a hostile environment, not because Thomas was pursuing.

                              Mill Springs was, to repeat, a small battle, even by January 1862
                              standards. Compare the few men Thomas – and Zollicoffer – had with the
                              forces, on both sides, the next month at Donelson.

                              Also remember, whatever the value of Thomas’ justifications for refusing
                              to accept army command until after Chickamauga, the fact remains that he
                              did not command in another battle for almost three years, and that
                              against an already defeated foe.

                              Take care,

                              Bob

                              Judy and Bob Huddleston
                              10643 Sperry Street
                              Northglenn, CO 80234-3612
                              Huddleston.r@...

                              “There must be more historians of the Civil War than there were generals fighting it, and, of the two groups, the historians are the more belligerent.” David Donald, “Refighting the Civil War,” Lincoln Reconsidered (New York, 1956), 82.


                              On 12/20/2010 10:24 AM, Bob Taubman wrote:
                              > Here we go again . Thomas, according to Mr. Huddleston, is "forced to
                              > fall back". I wonder why he would be forced to fall back when in fact
                              > "After it was clear that the enemy had abandoned his entrenchments in
                              > great haste....", General George H. Thomas, the Idomitable Warrior,
                              > p.180, author; Wilbur Thomas. Also, p.179, "A large quantity of
                              > ammunition, commissary stores, camp tools, and garrsion eqiupment, in
                              > addition to six Confederate flags, were also found by the victors."
                              > Also, p.179, "Although the Confederates escaped, the opposite bank
                              > displayed evidence of their flight by the number of wagons left
                              > behind; and since the boats use in crossing were destroyed, an
                              > immediate chase was impossible, although during the day the Fourteenth
                              > Ohio succeeded in effecting a crossing for reconnaissance purposes and
                              > to collect enemy property left behind."
                              > Mr. Huddleston has in previous correspondence on this topic, used the
                              > term "retreated" in relation to Thomas's actions at Mill Springs. Now
                              > the wording is "forced to fall back." Why would he have been forced
                              > to fall back when the enemy had abandoned the field; Thomas's forces
                              > were able to examine the enemy's entrenchments, and even crossed the
                              > river "for reconnaissance purposes and to collect enemy property left
                              > behind."
                              > ISTM leaving the field of battle after successfully routing the enemy,
                              > hardly qualifies as a "retreat" or being "forced to fall back." How
                              > many days, months, etc was he to remain at Mill Springs field of battle?
                              > Some collaboration of a "retreat" or "forced to fall back" situation
                              > would be appreciated.
                              >
                              >
                              > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                              > *From:* Bob Huddleston <huddleston.r@...>
                              > *To:* civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                              > *Sent:* Mon, December 20, 2010 12:07:36 AM
                              > *Subject:* Re: [civilwarwest] yesterday in history
                              >
                              > Thomas commanded in only two battles: Mill Springs, a small (4,500
                              > Federals to about 5900 Rebels) action where the total casualties were
                              > about 246 Union to 533 Confederate. Hardly much of a battle, since
                              > Thomas was forced to fall back after it was over. Thomas commanded some
                              > ten regiments and Crittenden eight; roughly two divisions fighting it
                              > out. Thomas casualties were low – but then so were Crittenden’s.
                              >
                              > From Mill Springs, January 19, 1862, until Nashville, almost exactly
                              > three years later, Thomas was never in command of a single battle; he
                              > was always in the position of having someone immediately over him, as
                              > the commander – and the one responsible for the victory or the defeat.
                              >
                              > I already posted the box score for Nashville.
                              >
                              > Take care,
                              >
                              > Bob
                              >
                              > Judy and Bob Huddleston
                              > 10643 Sperry Street
                              > Northglenn, CO 80234-3612
                              > Huddleston.r@... <mailto:Huddleston.r@...>
                              >
                              > “There must be more historians of the Civil War than there were generals
                              > fighting it, and, of the two groups, the historians are the more
                              > belligerent.” David Donald, “Refighting the Civil War,” Lincoln
                              > Reconsidered (New York, 1956), 82.
                              >
                              > On 12/18/2010 7:39 AM, Jack Lawrence wrote:
                              > > This is an old argument.
                              > >
                              > > No one says cannae when talking about Thomas.
                              > >
                              > > But he had a habit of turning back assaults and then pursuing a
                              > retreating
                              > > enemy ( under modern doctrine this is de rigor) to the point that it was
                              > > rendered combat ineffective to the point that it had to be reconstituted
                              > > and
                              > > rearmed.
                              > >
                              > > That's what Thomas did. No matter how many survivors, the opposing force
                              > > was
                              > > destroyed.
                              > >
                              > > Regards,
                              > >
                              > > Jack
                              > >
                              > > Amateur military historians study units an numbers. Professional
                              > military
                              > > historians study battles.
                              > > ----- Original Message -----
                              > > From: "Bob Huddleston" <huddleston.r@...
                              > <mailto:huddleston.r@...>
                              > > <mailto:huddleston.r%40comcast.net>>
                              > > To: <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                              > <mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
                              > <mailto:civilwarwest%40yahoogroups.com>>
                              > > Sent: Friday, December 17, 2010 7:53 PM
                              > > Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] yesterday in history
                              > >
                              > > >
                              > > > In our discussion of the importance of George Thomas, the statement is
                              > > > made that he is unique because he destroyed a Civil War army. Leaving
                              > > > aside the thought that if that is the sign of greatness, then John
                              > Bell
                              > > > Hood should be considered the greatest general of all time :>) I did
                              > > > some checking in the various secondary sources on the two battles of
                              > > > Franklin and Nashville. What I found, and please correct me if my
                              > > > figures are wrong, was that the destruction of the AoT was done at
                              > > > Franklin and that it would appear that the Rebels at Nashville were
                              > > > hardly destroyed, not if they had twenty something thousand when
                              > Thomas
                              > > > attacked and still had 20,000 a month or so later.
                              > > >
                              > > > At Franklin:
                              > > >
                              > > > Schofield:23,939
                              > > >
                              > > > Hood started north with about approximately 40,000 maximum, but
                              > only had
                              > > > about 29,000 left at Franklin (there are no decent Confederate
                              > numbers)
                              > > >
                              > > > Losses at Franklin, November 30, 1864:
                              > > >
                              > > > Schofield:2326
                              > > >
                              > > > Hood:6200
                              > > >
                              > > > At Nashville, December 15-16, 1864:
                              > > >
                              > > > Thomas: 52,000-60,000 (I am startled at the disagreement over the
                              > number
                              > > > of men Thomas had available!)
                              > > >
                              > > > Hood:22,000-25,000
                              > > >
                              > > > Casualties:
                              > > >
                              > > > Thomas: 3,061 killed, wounded and missing.
                              > > >
                              > > > Hood: No reports – but there is agreement that Thomas captured 4462
                              > > > Confederates and that, when the Army of Tennessee reached Tupelo
                              > at the
                              > > > beginning of 1865, it had about 20,000 men.
                              > > >
                              > > > Take care,
                              > > >
                              > > > Bob
                              > > >
                              > > > Judy and Bob Huddleston
                              > > > 10643 Sperry Street
                              > > > Northglenn, CO 80234-3612
                              > > > Huddleston.r@... <mailto:Huddleston.r@...>
                              > <mailto:Huddleston.r%40comcast.net>
                              > > >
                              > > > “There must be more historians of the Civil War than there were
                              > generals
                              > > > fighting it, and, of the two groups, the historians are the more
                              > > > belligerent.” David Donald, “Refighting the Civil War,” Lincoln
                              > > > Reconsidered (New York, 1956), 82.
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > On 12/17/2010 3:39 PM, chris bryant wrote:
                              > > >>
                              > > >>
                              > > >> I'd say it was pretty well sealed before that;any other opinions?
                              > > >> Chris Bryant
                              > > >> --- On *Fri, 12/17/10, hank9174 /<clarkc@...
                              > <mailto:clarkc@...>
                              > > <mailto:clarkc%40missouri.edu>>/* wrote:
                              > > >>
                              > > >>
                              > > >> From: hank9174 <clarkc@... <mailto:clarkc@...>
                              > <mailto:clarkc%40missouri.edu>>
                              > > >> Subject: [civilwarwest] yesterday in history
                              > > >> To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                              > <mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
                              > <mailto:civilwarwest%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > > >> Date: Friday, December 17, 2010, 12:41 PM
                              > > >>
                              > > >>
                              > > >> 146 years ago George H. Thomas created his magnum opus, his
                              > > >> masterpiece, his pièce de résistance: the battle of nashville.
                              > > >>
                              > > >> If any event truly sealed the fate of the CSA it was the virtual
                              > > >> destruction of the AoT...
                              > > >>
                              > > >> HankC
                              > > >>
                              > > >> p.s. I kind of miss old joseph rose ;)
                              > > >>
                              > > >>
                              > > >>
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > ------------------------------------
                              > > >
                              > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              > ------------------------------------
                              >
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              > civilwarwest-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
                              > <mailto:civilwarwest-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com>
                              >
                              >
                              >
                            • Bob Taubman
                              You have failed to explain why/how Thomas  retreated  or now, was   forced to fall back .  Your use of retreated or forced to fall back ,  are used to
                              Message 14 of 14 , Dec 20, 2010
                                You have failed to explain why/how Thomas "retreated" or now, was  "forced to fall back".  Your use of "retreated" or "forced to fall back",  are used to intimate some sort of failing on Thomas's part.  I see your use of these phrases as empty rhetoric, nothing else.  Thomas neither retreated nor was he forced to fall back as you have claimed.  Your other arguments are smoke screens for your inability to clarify your words.
                                 
                                Retreat:  "When an army retreats, it moves away from enemy forces in order to avoid fighting them."  Collins English Dictionary.  Methinks you got your northern and southern forces reversed.
                                 
                                Forced to fall back:  your definition, with respect to Mill Springs, is anticipated.
                                 

                                 


                                From: Bob Huddleston <huddleston.r@...>
                                To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Mon, December 20, 2010 2:09:41 PM
                                Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] yesterday in history

                                See Einholf, George Thomas: Virginian for the Union, p. 120-124 for an
                                analysis of what Thomas did at Mill Springs and the fact that Thomas
                                failed to follow up the victory, allowing Zollicoffer to escape. When
                                Speed Fry asked Thomas why he did not send a demand for the Confederates
                                to escape, “Thomas thought for a moment and then replied, ‘Hang it, Fry!
                                I never once thought of it!” (p. 120) See also Larry Daniel, Days of
                                Glory, pp. 54-56, where he points out that Buell was pushing Thomas to
                                pursue and Thomas was stalling..

                                Mind you, I am not saying that Thomas did not win and win impressively,
                                but he did not destroy Zollicoffer, nor did he pursue him. Instead he
                                “fell back” or “retreated,” pick your word. He was, BTW,, in my opinion,
                                doing the correct thing – the hills of Appalachia were a nightmare to
                                maneuver in during the Civil War and Thomas was right to “fall back”.
                                But let’s don’t call it “destruction of an enemy army”: whatever
                                destruction occurred to Zollicoffer occurred because he was also trying
                                to retreat through a hostile environment, not because Thomas was pursuing.

                                Mill Springs was, to repeat, a small battle, even by January 1862
                                standards. Compare the few men Thomas – and Zollicoffer – had with the
                                forces, on both sides, the next month at Donelson.

                                Also remember, whatever the value of Thomas’ justifications for refusing
                                to accept army command until after Chickamauga, the fact remains that he
                                did not command in another battle for almost three years, and that
                                against an already defeated foe.

                                Take care,

                                Bob

                                Judy and Bob Huddleston
                                10643 Sperry Street
                                Northglenn, CO  80234-3612
                                Huddleston.r@...

                                “There must be more historians of the Civil War than there were generals fighting it, and, of the two groups, the historians are the more belligerent.” David Donald, “Refighting the Civil War,” Lincoln Reconsidered (New York, 1956), 82.


                                On 12/20/2010 10:24 AM, Bob Taubman wrote:
                                > Here we go again .  Thomas, according to Mr. Huddleston, is "forced to
                                > fall back".  I wonder why he would be forced to fall back when in fact
                                > "After it was clear that the enemy had abandoned his entrenchments in
                                > great haste....", General George H. Thomas, the Idomitable Warrior, 
                                > p.180, author; Wilbur Thomas.  Also, p.179, "A large quantity of
                                > ammunition, commissary stores, camp tools, and garrsion eqiupment, in
                                > addition to six Confederate flags, were also found by the victors." 
                                > Also, p.179, "Although the Confederates escaped, the opposite bank
                                > displayed evidence of their flight by the number of wagons left
                                > behind;  and since the boats use in crossing were destroyed, an
                                > immediate chase was impossible, although during the day the Fourteenth
                                > Ohio succeeded in effecting a crossing for reconnaissance purposes and
                                > to collect enemy property left behind."
                                > Mr. Huddleston has in previous correspondence on this topic,  used the
                                > term "retreated" in relation to Thomas's actions at Mill Springs.  Now
                                > the wording is "forced to fall back."  Why would he have been forced
                                > to fall back when the enemy had abandoned the field;  Thomas's forces
                                > were able to examine the enemy's entrenchments, and even crossed the
                                > river "for reconnaissance purposes and to collect enemy property left
                                > behind."
                                > ISTM leaving the field of battle after successfully routing the enemy,
                                > hardly qualifies as a "retreat" or being "forced to fall back."  How
                                > many days, months, etc was he to remain at Mill Springs field of battle?
                                > Some collaboration of a "retreat" or "forced to fall back" situation
                                > would be appreciated.
                                >
                                >
                                > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                > *From:* Bob Huddleston <huddleston.r@...>
                                > *To:* civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                > *Sent:* Mon, December 20, 2010 12:07:36 AM
                                > *Subject:* Re: [civilwarwest] yesterday in history
                                >
                                > Thomas commanded in only two battles: Mill Springs, a small (4,500
                                > Federals to about 5900 Rebels) action where the total casualties were
                                > about 246 Union to 533 Confederate. Hardly much of a battle, since
                                > Thomas was forced to fall back after it was over. Thomas commanded some
                                > ten regiments and Crittenden eight; roughly two divisions fighting it
                                > out. Thomas casualties were low – but then so were Crittenden’s.
                                >
                                > From Mill Springs, January 19, 1862, until Nashville, almost exactly
                                > three years later, Thomas was never in command of a single battle; he
                                > was always in the position of having someone immediately over him, as
                                > the commander – and the one responsible for the victory or the defeat.
                                >
                                > I already posted the box score for Nashville.
                                >
                                > Take care,
                                >
                                > Bob
                                >
                                > Judy and Bob Huddleston
                                > 10643 Sperry Street
                                > Northglenn, CO  80234-3612
                                > Huddleston.r@... <mailto:Huddleston.r@...>
                                >
                                > “There must be more historians of the Civil War than there were generals
                                > fighting it, and, of the two groups, the historians are the more
                                > belligerent.” David Donald, “Refighting the Civil War,” Lincoln
                                > Reconsidered (New York, 1956), 82.
                                >
                                > On 12/18/2010 7:39 AM, Jack Lawrence wrote:
                                > > This is an old argument.
                                > >
                                > > No one says cannae when talking about Thomas.
                                > >
                                > > But he had a habit of turning back assaults and then pursuing a
                                > retreating
                                > > enemy ( under modern doctrine this is de rigor) to the point that it was
                                > > rendered combat ineffective to the point that it had to be reconstituted
                                > > and
                                > > rearmed.
                                > >
                                > > That's what Thomas did. No matter how many survivors, the opposing force
                                > > was
                                > > destroyed.
                                > >
                                > > Regards,
                                > >
                                > > Jack
                                > >
                                > > Amateur military historians study units an numbers. Professional
                                > military
                                > > historians study battles.
                                > > ----- Original Message -----
                                > > From: "Bob Huddleston" <huddleston.r@...
                                > <mailto:huddleston.r@...>
                                > > <mailto:huddleston.r%40comcast.net>>
                                > > To: <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                > <mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
                                > <mailto:civilwarwest%40yahoogroups.com>>
                                > > Sent: Friday, December 17, 2010 7:53 PM
                                > > Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] yesterday in history
                                > >
                                > > >
                                > > > In our discussion of the importance of George Thomas, the statement is
                                > > > made that he is unique because he destroyed a Civil War army. Leaving
                                > > > aside the thought that if that is the sign of greatness, then John
                                > Bell
                                > > > Hood should be considered the greatest general of all time :>) I did
                                > > > some checking in the various secondary sources on the two battles of
                                > > > Franklin and Nashville. What I found, and please correct me if my
                                > > > figures are wrong, was that the destruction of the AoT was done at
                                > > > Franklin and that it would appear that the Rebels at Nashville were
                                > > > hardly destroyed, not if they had twenty something thousand when
                                > Thomas
                                > > > attacked and still had 20,000 a month or so later.
                                > > >
                                > > > At Franklin:
                                > > >
                                > > > Schofield:23,939
                                > > >
                                > > > Hood started north with about approximately 40,000 maximum, but
                                > only had
                                > > > about 29,000 left at Franklin (there are no decent Confederate
                                > numbers)
                                > > >
                                > > > Losses at Franklin, November 30, 1864:
                                > > >
                                > > > Schofield:2326
                                > > >
                                > > > Hood:6200
                                > > >
                                > > > At Nashville, December 15-16, 1864:
                                > > >
                                > > > Thomas: 52,000-60,000 (I am startled at the disagreement over the
                                > number
                                > > > of men Thomas had available!)
                                > > >
                                > > > Hood:22,000-25,000
                                > > >
                                > > > Casualties:
                                > > >
                                > > > Thomas: 3,061 killed, wounded and missing.
                                > > >
                                > > > Hood: No reports – but there is agreement that Thomas captured 4462
                                > > > Confederates and that, when the Army of Tennessee reached Tupelo
                                > at the
                                > > > beginning of 1865, it had about 20,000 men.
                                > > >
                                > > > Take care,
                                > > >
                                > > > Bob
                                > > >
                                > > > Judy and Bob Huddleston
                                > > > 10643 Sperry Street
                                > > > Northglenn, CO 80234-3612
                                > > > Huddleston.r@... <mailto:Huddleston.r@...>
                                > <mailto:Huddleston.r%40comcast.net>
                                > > >
                                > > > “There must be more historians of the Civil War than there were
                                > generals
                                > > > fighting it, and, of the two groups, the historians are the more
                                > > > belligerent.” David Donald, “Refighting the Civil War,” Lincoln
                                > > > Reconsidered (New York, 1956), 82.
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > On 12/17/2010 3:39 PM, chris bryant wrote:
                                > > >>
                                > > >>
                                > > >> I'd say it was pretty well sealed before that;any other opinions?
                                > > >> Chris Bryant
                                > > >> --- On *Fri, 12/17/10, hank9174 /<clarkc@...
                                > <mailto:clarkc@...>
                                > > <mailto:clarkc%40missouri.edu>>/* wrote:
                                > > >>
                                > > >>
                                > > >> From: hank9174 <clarkc@... <mailto:clarkc@...>
                                > <mailto:clarkc%40missouri.edu>>
                                > > >> Subject: [civilwarwest] yesterday in history
                                > > >> To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                > <mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
                                > <mailto:civilwarwest%40yahoogroups.com>
                                > > >> Date: Friday, December 17, 2010, 12:41 PM
                                > > >>
                                > > >>
                                > > >> 146 years ago George H. Thomas created his magnum opus, his
                                > > >> masterpiece, his pièce de résistance: the battle of nashville.
                                > > >>
                                > > >> If any event truly sealed the fate of the CSA it was the virtual
                                > > >> destruction of the AoT...
                                > > >>
                                > > >> HankC
                                > > >>
                                > > >> p.s. I kind of miss old joseph rose ;)
                                > > >>
                                > > >>
                                > > >>
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > ------------------------------------
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