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Re: [civilwarwest] Fwd: Where the War REALLY was Won (and who won it)

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  • keeno2@aol.com
    Much too complex for my rapidly aging brain. You re getting into details that I don t even want to think about. For me, it remains that the rails were
    Message 1 of 15 , Nov 29, 2009
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      Much too complex for my rapidly aging brain. You're getting into details that I don't even want to think about. For me, it remains that the rails were important in many situations, although not all.
       
      The Tennessee was important, but didn't reach to Chattanooga for most of the year. The rails were impervious to seasons but bled manpower for each mile. That a train might have to off-loaded and another reloaded isn't so much of a snag as has been ascribed to the situation. Routine. Manpower. Horses and wagons.
       
      The real detriment in reliance on railroads is in that the Confederacy had few connecting with anything, and no wherewithal whatever to replace rails or rolling stock. Still, the secesh managed to cannibalize spurs to maintain the semplance of a network. Theirs was still a miracle of patchwork.
       
      Taken as a whole, the rivers likely did more service to the Union forces than did the rails. But that's only skimming the surface.
       
      Ole
    • carlw4514
      I certainly agree that I was instantly overwhelmed by all that information. Your proposition: The Civil War would not have been much different nor cost more
      Message 2 of 15 , Nov 30, 2009
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        I certainly agree that I was instantly overwhelmed by all that information.

        Your proposition:
        The Civil War would not have been much different nor cost more lives without the railroads.

        I think I would have to say I disagree that the war would not have been much different, although I don't know how to weigh your qualifier "much". Certainly, outside of war, it was really changing the country, so it is hard to imagine we would have fought the same war without them. One thing that comes to mind is that the railroads stepped in to make up the difference when the Mississippi was closed down.

        As far as the war itself, I'd have to say quite a few battles would not have been fought at all without the railroads and the supplies to the armies they provided.
      • Tony
        ... I think you need to pick up Warren Grabau s 98 Days in which he performs a calculation of the distance that a civil war unit could travel away from the
        Message 3 of 15 , Nov 30, 2009
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          --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, fwnash@... wrote:
          > Proposition.   The Civil War would not have been much different nor cost more lives without the railroads.
          >

          I think you need to pick up Warren Grabau's "98 Days" in which he performs a calculation of the distance that a civil war unit could travel away from the rail lines without massive foraging. Basically, there's a point at which the food required to carry the wagon teams a given distance becomes greater than the capacity of the wagon. It is a shockingly short distance, I can look it up for you some time when I get a chance.

          An army travels on its stomach, and in the ACW its stomach traveled by rail.
        • shaun c
          For a long time I ve been considering a civil war play by email game about gettysburg, using what is effectivly tabletop miniature rules for the combat. The
          Message 4 of 15 , Dec 7, 2009
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            For a long time I've been considering a civil war play by email game about gettysburg, using what is effectivly tabletop miniature rules for the combat.

            The game would be basicly a map, with a list of known statistics for the players (unit quality/type/leader/strength etc)

            Players would be given orders in a chain of command, from army commander to corps commanders downwards in a realistic fashion.

            Would anyone here be interested in taking part in such a game? it would be slow paced and represent gettysburg from the first day onwards.

            I have previously done some research into the topography and Order of battles for both sides, making the game would merely be a matter of turning historical leaders into game worthy statistics and effecting a gameplayable map.

            Any ideas/comments/good idea??


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          • shaun c
            Correction, all i would have to do is consolidate the rules and make a workable map (which i pretty much have already), the commanders i decided to give random
            Message 5 of 15 , Dec 7, 2009
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              Correction, all i would have to do is consolidate the rules and make a workable map (which i pretty much have already), the commanders i decided to give random attributes to represent a level of unknown knowledge of their ability in combat in such a circumstance (with historically exceptional leaders having higher chance for better attributes).


              To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
              From: shaunchattey@...
              Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 05:27:44 +0000
              Subject: [civilwarwest] Civil war game

               
              For a long time I've been considering a civil war play by email game about gettysburg, using what is effectivly tabletop miniature rules for the combat.

              The game would be basicly a map, with a list of known statistics for the players (unit quality/type/ leader/strength etc)

              Players would be given orders in a chain of command, from army commander to corps commanders downwards in a realistic fashion.

              Would anyone here be interested in taking part in such a game? it would be slow paced and represent gettysburg from the first day onwards.

              I have previously done some research into the topography and Order of battles for both sides, making the game would merely be a matter of turning historical leaders into game worthy statistics and effecting a gameplayable map.

              Any ideas/comments/ good idea??



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            • gordhamer
              I think it s a great idea! Count me in. ... [snip]
              Message 6 of 15 , Dec 8, 2009
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                I think it's a great idea!

                Count me in.

                --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, shaun c <shaunchattey@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > For a long time I've been considering a civil war play by email game about gettysburg, using what is effectivly tabletop miniature rules for the combat.

                [snip]

                > Any ideas/comments/good idea??
              • James and Kathy
                Howdy Shaun Cool deal I ll take any WI or 3d Ark., Col. Van H. Manning unit either sides fine. Yours in service James Acerra ... From: shaun c To:
                Message 7 of 15 , Dec 8, 2009
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                  Howdy Shaun
                   Cool deal
                  I'll take any WI or 3d Ark., Col. Van H. Manning unit either sides fine.
                  Yours in service
                  James Acerra
                   
                   
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: shaun c
                  Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 11:27 PM
                  Subject: [civilwarwest] Civil war game

                   

                  For a long time I've been considering a civil war play by email game about gettysburg, using what is effectivly tabletop miniature rules for the combat.

                  The game would be basicly a map, with a list of known statistics for the players (unit quality/type/ leader/strength etc)

                  Players would be given orders in a chain of command, from army commander to corps commanders downwards in a realistic fashion.

                  Would anyone here be interested in taking part in such a game? it would be slow paced and represent gettysburg from the first day onwards.

                  I have previously done some research into the topography and Order of battles for both sides, making the game would merely be a matter of turning historical leaders into game worthy statistics and effecting a gameplayable map.

                  Any ideas/comments/ good idea??


                  Windows Live: Friends get your Flickr, Yelp, and Digg updates when they e-mail you.

                • shaun c
                  I ll have a go at consolidating the various rules into one easily readable format this week, and I ll keep you guys posted on the progress, once I ve posted
                  Message 8 of 15 , Dec 8, 2009
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                    I'll have a go at consolidating the various rules into one easily readable format this week, and I'll keep you guys posted on the progress, once I've posted the rule system and map, ideas and comments would be very welcome.

                    Shaun


                    Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 10:06:55 -0800
                    From: na_jeb@...
                    Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Civil war game
                    To: shaunchattey@...

                    Hello Shaun!
                      I'd be interested in getting involved!
                    Please keep me posted!
                    -Charles


                    From: shaun c <shaunchattey@...>
                    To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Mon, December 7, 2009 10:51:49 PM
                    Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Civil war game

                     
                    Correction, all i would have to do is consolidate the rules and make a workable map (which i pretty much have already), the commanders i decided to give random attributes to represent a level of unknown knowledge of their ability in combat in such a circumstance (with historically exceptional leaders having higher chance for better attributes).



                    To: civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com
                    From: shaunchattey@ hotmail.com
                    Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 05:27:44 +0000
                    Subject: [civilwarwest] Civil war game

                     
                    For a long time I've been considering a civil war play by email game about gettysburg, using what is effectivly tabletop miniature rules for the combat.

                    The game would be basicly a map, with a list of known statistics for the players (unit quality/type/ leader/strength etc)

                    Players would be given orders in a chain of command, from army commander to corps commanders downwards in a realistic fashion.

                    Would anyone here be interested in taking part in such a game? it would be slow paced and represent gettysburg from the first day onwards.

                    I have previously done some research into the topography and Order of battles for both sides, making the game would merely be a matter of turning historical leaders into game worthy statistics and effecting a gameplayable map.

                    Any ideas/comments/ good idea??



                    Windows Live: Friends get your Flickr, Yelp, and Digg updates when they e-mail you.


                    Windows Live: Keep your friends up to date with what you do online.



                    Windows Live: Friends get your Flickr, Yelp, and Digg updates when they e-mail you.
                  • shaun c
                    My first consult :D Commanders skill in this tabletop rules range from 1-5, as i stated before the actual skill will not be revealed until they have been
                    Message 9 of 15 , Dec 8, 2009
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                      My first consult :D

                      Commanders skill in this tabletop rules range from 1-5, as i stated before the actual skill will not be revealed until they have been engaged in combat and shown their mettle. However as an indication that some generals were of a higher caliber than others, I will give them a higher chance of having a higher skill.

                      between 1-4 regular commanders will have (average commanders)
                      2-5 exceptional commanders will have

                      (the use of these skill levels ill explain later)

                      The question is, who should get the exceptional tag???

                      Off the top of my head, I have in my mind:

                      Chamberlain (U)
                      Longstreet (C)
                      Hancock (U)
                      Reynolds (U)
                      Stuart??? (C)
                      Armistead (C)
                      Alexander?? (C)
                      Lee (C)

                      additions? removals?


                      To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                      From: viking_reborn@...
                      Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 16:23:16 +0000
                      Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Civil war game

                       
                      I think it's a great idea!

                      Count me in.

                      --- In civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com, shaun c <shaunchattey@ ...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > For a long time I've been considering a civil war play by email game about gettysburg, using what is effectivly tabletop miniature rules for the combat.

                      [snip]

                      > Any ideas/comments/ good idea??




                      Windows Live: Friends get your Flickr, Yelp, and Digg updates when they e-mail you.
                    • Dick Weeks
                      Folks, I did not mind the announcing of the start of a Civil War game in this discussion group. I think playing Civil War games always adds to one s knowledge
                      Message 10 of 15 , Dec 8, 2009
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                        Folks, I did not mind the announcing of the start of a Civil War game in this discussion group.  I think playing Civil War games always adds to one's knowledge of the war as it was and how it might have been.  However, the game cannot be played in this discussion group.  That's not why the group was set up.  You can start your own group for this purpose very easily on Yahoo.  I hope all understand.  Please take this discussion to another venue. Thanks.
                         
                        I am, very respectfully, your obedient servant,
                        Dick (a.k.a. Shotgun)
                        http://www.civilwarhome.com
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: shaun c
                        Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 5:51 PM
                        Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Re: Civil war game

                        My first consult :D

                        Commanders skill in this tabletop rules range from 1-5, as i stated before the actual skill will not be revealed until they have been engaged in combat and shown their mettle. However as an indication that some generals were of a higher caliber than others, I will give them a higher chance of having a higher skill.

                        between 1-4 regular commanders will have (average commanders)
                        2-5 exceptional commanders will have

                        (the use of these skill levels ill explain later)

                        The question is, who should get the exceptional tag???

                        Off the top of my head, I have in my mind:

                        Chamberlain (U)
                        Longstreet (C)
                        Hancock (U)
                        Reynolds (U)
                        Stuart??? (C)
                        Armistead (C)
                        Alexander?? (C)
                        Lee (C)

                        additions? removals?


                        To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                        From: viking_reborn@...
                        Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 16:23:16 +0000
                        Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Civil war game

                         
                        I think it's a great idea!

                        Count me in.

                        --- In civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com, shaun c <shaunchattey@ ...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > For a long time I've been considering a civil war play by email game about gettysburg, using what is effectivly tabletop miniature rules for the combat.

                        [snip]

                        > Any ideas/comments/ good idea??




                        Windows Live: Friends get your Flickr, Yelp, and Digg updates when they e-mail you.
                      • shaun c
                        Understandable, I never intended to play it on this board, but i will cease from discussing it here aswell. To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com From:
                        Message 11 of 15 , Dec 8, 2009
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                          Understandable, I never intended to play it on this board, but i will cease from discussing it here aswell.


                          To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                          From: shotgun@...
                          Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 19:08:07 -0500
                          Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Civil war game

                           

                          Folks, I did not mind the announcing of the start of a Civil War game in this discussion group.  I think playing Civil War games always adds to one's knowledge of the war as it was and how it might have been.  However, the game cannot be played in this discussion group.  That's not why the group was set up.  You can start your own group for this purpose very easily on Yahoo.  I hope all understand.  Please take this discussion to another venue. Thanks.
                           
                          I am, very respectfully, your obedient servant,
                          Dick (a.k.a. Shotgun)
                          http://www.civilwar home.com
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: shaun c
                          Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 5:51 PM
                          Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Re: Civil war game

                          My first consult :D

                          Commanders skill in this tabletop rules range from 1-5, as i stated before the actual skill will not be revealed until they have been engaged in combat and shown their mettle. However as an indication that some generals were of a higher caliber than others, I will give them a higher chance of having a higher skill.

                          between 1-4 regular commanders will have (average commanders)
                          2-5 exceptional commanders will have

                          (the use of these skill levels ill explain later)

                          The question is, who should get the exceptional tag???

                          Off the top of my head, I have in my mind:

                          Chamberlain (U)
                          Longstreet (C)
                          Hancock (U)
                          Reynolds (U)
                          Stuart??? (C)
                          Armistead (C)
                          Alexander?? (C)
                          Lee (C)

                          additions? removals?


                          To: civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com
                          From: viking_reborn@ hotmail.com
                          Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 16:23:16 +0000
                          Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Civil war game

                           
                          I think it's a great idea!

                          Count me in.

                          --- In civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com, shaun c <shaunchattey@ ...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > For a long time I've been considering a civil war play by email game about gettysburg, using what is effectivly tabletop miniature rules for the combat.

                          [snip]

                          > Any ideas/comments/ good idea??




                          Windows Live: Friends get your Flickr, Yelp, and Digg updates when they e-mail you.



                          Windows Live: Keep your friends up to date with what you do online.
                        • shaun c
                          For those interested, i have created a group for discussion of the game so as not to interfere with this group. http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/ACWargame/ To:
                          Message 12 of 15 , Dec 8, 2009
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                            For those interested, i have created a group for discussion of the game so as not to interfere with this group.

                            http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/ACWargame/


                            To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                            From: shotgun@...
                            Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 19:08:07 -0500
                            Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Civil war game

                             

                            Folks, I did not mind the announcing of the start of a Civil War game in this discussion group.  I think playing Civil War games always adds to one's knowledge of the war as it was and how it might have been.  However, the game cannot be played in this discussion group.  That's not why the group was set up.  You can start your own group for this purpose very easily on Yahoo.  I hope all understand.  Please take this discussion to another venue. Thanks.
                             
                            I am, very respectfully, your obedient servant,
                            Dick (a.k.a. Shotgun)
                            http://www.civilwar home.com
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: shaun c
                            Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 5:51 PM
                            Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Re: Civil war game

                            My first consult :D

                            Commanders skill in this tabletop rules range from 1-5, as i stated before the actual skill will not be revealed until they have been engaged in combat and shown their mettle. However as an indication that some generals were of a higher caliber than others, I will give them a higher chance of having a higher skill.

                            between 1-4 regular commanders will have (average commanders)
                            2-5 exceptional commanders will have

                            (the use of these skill levels ill explain later)

                            The question is, who should get the exceptional tag???

                            Off the top of my head, I have in my mind:

                            Chamberlain (U)
                            Longstreet (C)
                            Hancock (U)
                            Reynolds (U)
                            Stuart??? (C)
                            Armistead (C)
                            Alexander?? (C)
                            Lee (C)

                            additions? removals?


                            To: civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com
                            From: viking_reborn@ hotmail.com
                            Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 16:23:16 +0000
                            Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Civil war game

                             
                            I think it's a great idea!

                            Count me in.

                            --- In civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com, shaun c <shaunchattey@ ...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > For a long time I've been considering a civil war play by email game about gettysburg, using what is effectivly tabletop miniature rules for the combat.

                            [snip]

                            > Any ideas/comments/ good idea??




                            Windows Live: Friends get your Flickr, Yelp, and Digg updates when they e-mail you.



                            Windows Live: Keep your friends up to date with what you do online.
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