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Grant, Smoking & Drinking

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  • Harry Smeltzer
    There are photos of him actually smoking (not just holding) cigars in uniform? And THOUSANDS of corroborated accounts (that is, more than one person claiming
    Message 1 of 12 , Apr 27 10:11 AM

      There are photos of him actually smoking (not just holding) cigars in uniform?  And THOUSANDS of corroborated accounts (that is, more than one person claiming to have seen him smoke on the same occasion, as opposed to many saying they have seen him smoke in general – and we’re talking smoking, here, not just clenching a stogie between his teeth)?  I’ll need some convincing on this.

       

      -----Original Message-----
      From:
      civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John D. Beatty
      Sent:
      Monday, April 27, 2009 12:25 PM
      To:
      civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Cigars? What proof is there?

       

      Other than thousands of corroborated eyewitnesses and a handful of photographs, none.  Can't say that about drinking.

       

    • Nick KURTZ
      How many photos do we have of generals in the act of drinking? I cant think of any but I ve never searched for them. --Nick To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
      Message 2 of 12 , Apr 27 10:17 AM
        How many photos do we have of generals in the act of drinking?  I cant think of any but I've never searched for them.
        --Nick
         

        To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
        From: hjs21@...
        Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 13:11:06 -0400
        Subject: [civilwarwest] Grant, Smoking & Drinking



        There are photos of him actually smoking (not just holding) cigars in uniform?  And THOUSANDS of corroborated accounts (that is, more than one person claiming to have seen him smoke on the same occasion, as opposed to many saying they have seen him smoke in general – and we’re talking smoking, here, not just clenching a stogie between his teeth)?  I’ll need some convincing on this.

         

        -----Original Message-----
        From:
        civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of John D. Beatty
        Sent:
        Monday, April 27, 2009 12:25 PM
        To:
        civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com
        Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Cigars? What proof is there?

         

        Other than thousands of corroborated eyewitnesses and a handful of photographs, none.  Can't say that about drinking.

         


      • John D. Beatty
        OK. Have fun. Evaluate the evidence for yourself. I really don t care if he did or not, simply because it s a non-issue to history. I you want to expend your
        Message 3 of 12 , Apr 27 10:32 AM
          OK.  Have fun.  Evaluate the evidence for yourself.  I really don't care if he did or not, simply because it's a non-issue to history.  I you want to expend your resources on it, knock yourself out.

          ___________________________
          John D. Beatty
          Co-Author of "What Were They Thinking" from Merriam Press/Lulu
          "History is our only test for the consequences of ideas"

          -------- Original Message --------
          Subject: [civilwarwest] Grant, Smoking & Drinking
          From: "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
          Date: Mon, April 27, 2009 12:11 pm
          To: <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>



          There are photos of him actually smoking (not just holding) cigars in uniform?  And THOUSANDS of corroborated accounts (that is, more than one person claiming to have seen him smoke on the same occasion, as opposed to many saying they have seen him smoke in general – and we’re talking smoking, here, not just clenching a stogie between his teeth)?  I’ll need some convincing on this.
           
          -----Original Message-----
          From:
          civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of John D. Beatty
          Sent:
          Monday, April 27, 2009 12:25 PM
          To:
          civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com
          Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Cigars? What proof is there?
           
          Other than thousands of corroborated eyewitnesses and a handful of photographs, none.  Can't say that about drinking.
           
        • John D. Beatty
          No idea. I can recall only one, some unposed HQ photo around City Point where everyone s sitting on it looks like church pews and it looks like someone is
          Message 4 of 12 , Apr 27 10:37 AM
            No idea.  I can recall only one, some unposed HQ photo around City Point where everyone's sitting on it looks like church pews and it looks like someone is drinking from a cup.  I leave such things to those who need to know.  I don't.

            ___________________________
            John D. Beatty
            Co-Author of "What Were They Thinking" from Merriam Press/Lulu
            "History is our only test for the consequences of ideas"

            -------- Original Message --------
            Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Grant, Smoking & Drinking
            From: Nick KURTZ <ShilohNick@...>
            Date: Mon, April 27, 2009 12:17 pm
            To: civilwarwest <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>



            How many photos do we have of generals in the act of drinking?  I cant think of any but I've never searched for them.
            --Nick
             

            To: civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com
            From: hjs21@comcast. net
            Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 13:11:06 -0400
            Subject: [civilwarwest] Grant, Smoking & Drinking



            There are photos of him actually smoking (not just holding) cigars in uniform?  And THOUSANDS of corroborated accounts (that is, more than one person claiming to have seen him smoke on the same occasion, as opposed to many saying they have seen him smoke in general – and we’re talking smoking, here, not just clenching a stogie between his teeth)?  I’ll need some convincing on this.

             

            -----Original Message-----
            From:
            civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of John D. Beatty
            Sent:
            Monday, April 27, 2009 12:25 PM
            To:
            civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com
            Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Cigars? What proof is there?

             

            Other than thousands of corroborated eyewitnesses and a handful of photographs, none.  Can't say that about drinking.

             


          • Harry Smeltzer
            Oh, I don t need to expend any energy at all. The work has been done, and I m convinced. He smoked. And he drank. I don t know that either had any effect
            Message 5 of 12 , Apr 27 10:39 AM

              OK.  Have fun.  Evaluate the evidence for yourself.  I really don't care if he did or not, simply because it's a non-issue to history.  I you want to expend your resources on it, knock yourself out.

              ____________ _________ ______
              John D. Beatty
              Co-Author of "What Were They Thinking" from Merriam Press/Lulu
              "History is our only test for the consequences of ideas"

              -------- Original Message --------
              Subject: [civilwarwest] Grant, Smoking & Drinking
              From: "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@comcast. net>
              Date: Mon, April 27, 2009 12:11 pm
              To: <civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com>

               

              There are photos of him actually smoking (not just holding) cigars in uniform?  And THOUSANDS of corroborated accounts (that is, more than one person claiming to have seen him smoke on the same occasion, as opposed to many saying they have seen him smoke in general – and we’re talking smoking, here, not just clenching a stogie between his teeth)?  I’ll need some convincing on this.

               

              -----Original Message-----
              From: civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of John D. Beatty
              Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 12:25 PM
              To: civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com
              Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Cigars? What proof is there?

               

              Other than thousands of corroborated eyewitnesses and a handful of photographs, none.  Can't say that about drinking.

               

            • Nick KURTZ
              I asked the photo question because you wrote: Other than thousands of corroborated eyewitnesses and a handful of photographs, none. Can t say that about
              Message 6 of 12 , Apr 27 10:46 AM
                I asked the photo question because you wrote:
                "Other than thousands of corroborated eyewitnesses and a handful of photographs, none.  Can't say that about drinking."
                 
                Which prompted me to wonder if there are any pictures of generals drinking.  Most pictures were posed so a drinking photo would seem especially rare, then to have one of Grant who had rumors of his drinking the entire war seems even rarer.  It seems there is plenty of evidence to suggest Grant did drink during the war and you seem to discount every piece.  There is only minor evidence that he got stinkin' drunk on occasion.  Enough to prove without a shadow of a doubt that he got plastered?  No.  But enough evidence that liquor touched his lips during the war?  Yes.
                --Nick


                 

                To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                From: jdbeatty@...
                Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 10:37:17 -0700
                Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Grant, Smoking & Drinking



                No idea.  I can recall only one, some unposed HQ photo around City Point where everyone's sitting on it looks like church pews and it looks like someone is drinking from a cup.  I leave such things to those who need to know.  I don't.

                ____________ _________ ______
                John D. Beatty
                Co-Author of "What Were They Thinking" from Merriam Press/Lulu
                "History is our only test for the consequences of ideas"

                -------- Original Message --------
                Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Grant, Smoking & Drinking
                From: Nick KURTZ <ShilohNick@msn. com>
                Date: Mon, April 27, 2009 12:17 pm
                To: civilwarwest <civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com>



                How many photos do we have of generals in the act of drinking?  I cant think of any but I've never searched for them.
                --Nick
                 

                To: civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com
                From: hjs21@comcast. net
                Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 13:11:06 -0400
                Subject: [civilwarwest] Grant, Smoking & Drinking



                There are photos of him actually smoking (not just holding) cigars in uniform?  And THOUSANDS of corroborated accounts (that is, more than one person claiming to have seen him smoke on the same occasion, as opposed to many saying they have seen him smoke in general – and we’re talking smoking, here, not just clenching a stogie between his teeth)?  I’ll need some convincing on this.

                 

                -----Original Message-----
                From:
                civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of John D. Beatty
                Sent:
                Monday, April 27, 2009 12:25 PM
                To:
                civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com
                Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Cigars? What proof is there?

                 

                Other than thousands of corroborated eyewitnesses and a handful of photographs, none.  Can't say that about drinking.

                 




              • Harry Smeltzer
                Oh, I don t need to expend any energy at all. The work has been done, and I m convinced. He smoked. And he drank. I don t know that either had any effect
                Message 7 of 12 , Apr 27 10:53 AM

                  Oh, I don’t need to expend any energy at all.  The work has been done, and I’m convinced.  He smoked.  And he drank.  I don’t know that either had any effect on his performance, or if that effect was positive or negative.  I doubt we’ll ever know that.

                  Still, I don’t think there are any photos of Grant actually smoking cigars while in the army.

                   

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John D. Beatty
                  Sent:
                  Monday, April 27, 2009 1:32 PM
                  To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Grant, Smoking & Drinking

                   

                  OK.  Have fun.  Evaluate the evidence for yourself.  I really don't care if he did or not, simply because it's a non-issue to history.  I you want to expend your resources on it, knock yourself out.

                   

                • John D. Beatty
                  I m not discounting anything. I m saying that there s no corroboration for the accounts. ___________________________ John D. Beatty Co-Author of What Were
                  Message 8 of 12 , Apr 27 2:00 PM
                    I'm not "discounting" anything.  I'm saying that there's no corroboration for the accounts.

                    ___________________________
                    John D. Beatty
                    Co-Author of "What Were They Thinking" from Merriam Press/Lulu
                    "History is our only test for the consequences of ideas"

                    -------- Original Message --------
                    Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Grant, Smoking & Drinking
                    From: Nick KURTZ <ShilohNick@...>
                    Date: Mon, April 27, 2009 12:46 pm
                    To: civilwarwest <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>



                    I asked the photo question because you wrote:
                    "Other than thousands of corroborated eyewitnesses and a handful of photographs, none.  Can't say that about drinking."
                     
                    Which prompted me to wonder if there are any pictures of generals drinking.  Most pictures were posed so a drinking photo would seem especially rare, then to have one of Grant who had rumors of his drinking the entire war seems even rarer.  It seems there is plenty of evidence to suggest Grant did drink during the war and you seem to discount every piece.  There is only minor evidence that he got stinkin' drunk on occasion.  Enough to prove without a shadow of a doubt that he got plastered?  No.  But enough evidence that liquor touched his lips during the war?  Yes.
                    --Nick


                     

                    To: civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com
                    From: jdbeatty@amcivwar. com
                    Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 10:37:17 -0700
                    Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Grant, Smoking & Drinking



                    No idea.  I can recall only one, some unposed HQ photo around City Point where everyone's sitting on it looks like church pews and it looks like someone is drinking from a cup.  I leave such things to those who need to know.  I don't.

                    ____________ _________ ______
                    John D. Beatty
                    Co-Author of "What Were They Thinking" from Merriam Press/Lulu
                    "History is our only test for the consequences of ideas"

                    -------- Original Message --------
                    Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Grant, Smoking & Drinking
                    From: Nick KURTZ <ShilohNick@msn. com>
                    Date: Mon, April 27, 2009 12:17 pm
                    To: civilwarwest <civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com>



                    How many photos do we have of generals in the act of drinking?  I cant think of any but I've never searched for them.
                    --Nick
                     

                    To: civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com
                    From: hjs21@comcast. net
                    Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 13:11:06 -0400
                    Subject: [civilwarwest] Grant, Smoking & Drinking



                    There are photos of him actually smoking (not just holding) cigars in uniform?  And THOUSANDS of corroborated accounts (that is, more than one person claiming to have seen him smoke on the same occasion, as opposed to many saying they have seen him smoke in general – and we’re talking smoking, here, not just clenching a stogie between his teeth)?  I’ll need some convincing on this.

                     

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From:
                    civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of John D. Beatty
                    Sent:
                    Monday, April 27, 2009 12:25 PM
                    To:
                    civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com
                    Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Cigars? What proof is there?

                     

                    Other than thousands of corroborated eyewitnesses and a handful of photographs, none.  Can't say that about drinking.

                     




                  • DORR64OVI@aol.com
                    Isnt today is Sam Grants birthday? Lets everyone have a drink and stoogie in his honor!! Kent Dorr **************Access 350+ FREE radio stations anytime from
                    Message 9 of 12 , Apr 27 5:05 PM
                      Isnt today is Sam Grants birthday?  Lets everyone have a drink and stoogie in his honor!!
                       
                      Kent Dorr


                      Access 350+ FREE radio stations anytime from anywhere on the web. Get the Radio Toolbar!
                    • John D. Beatty
                      Missed the drink...had the cigar, though...one of two a year... ___________________________ John D. Beatty Co-Author of What Were They Thinking from Merriam
                      Message 10 of 12 , Apr 28 5:27 AM
                        Missed the drink...had the cigar, though...one of two a year...

                        ___________________________
                        John D. Beatty
                        Co-Author of "What Were They Thinking" from Merriam Press/Lulu
                        "History is our only test for the consequences of ideas"

                        -------- Original Message --------
                        Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Grant, Smoking & Drinking
                        From: DORR64OVI@...
                        Date: Mon, April 27, 2009 7:05 pm
                        To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com



                        Isnt today is Sam Grants birthday?  Lets everyone have a drink and stoogie in his honor!!
                         
                        Kent Dorr


                        Access 350+ FREE radio stations anytime from anywhere on the web. Get the Radio Toolbar!
                      • CashG79@aol.com
                        In a message dated 4/28/2009 12:06:59 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com writes: How many photos do we have of generals in the act of
                        Message 11 of 12 , Apr 28 3:29 PM
                           
                           
                          In a message dated 4/28/2009 12:06:59 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com writes:
                          How many photos do we have of generals in the act of drinking?  I cant think of any but I've never searched for them.

                          --Nick
                          -----------
                          So obviously not a single general ever drank during the war.
                           
                          Regards,
                          Cash
                        • John D. Beatty
                          That is a conclusion we are free to reach. We can also conclude that since we have corroborated accounts of some officers being intoxicated during the conflict
                          Message 12 of 12 , Apr 29 5:13 AM
                            That is a conclusion we are free to reach. 

                            We can also conclude that since we have corroborated accounts of some officers being intoxicated during the conflict that at least some did.  Physical evidence is preferred and objectively testable, but corroborated statements are acceptable for reaching such conclusions.

                            If you prefer you can demand physical evidence.  That is your privilege.  I prefer it because it can be evaluated by other disciplines, but I also know that I cannot always obtain it, and as time goes by less and less of it survives.  But that's how the historical sciences work.  Often we have to work with corroborated accounts (three officers who arrest a drunk at his headquarters, for instance), or with those that fit existing and more-or-less unchangeable evidence (like distance between two unmoving points). 

                            But if you prefer you can hold out for physical evidence for everything.  I don't, and I never said I did. 

                            ___________________________
                            John D. Beatty
                            Co-Author of "What Were They Thinking" from Merriam Press/Lulu
                            "History is our only test for the consequences of ideas"

                            -------- Original Message --------
                            Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Grant, Smoking & Drinking
                            From: CashG79@...
                            Date: Tue, April 28, 2009 5:29 pm
                            To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com



                             
                             
                            In a message dated 4/28/2009 12:06:59 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com writes:
                            How many photos do we have of generals in the act of drinking?  I cant think of any but I've never searched for them.

                            --Nick
                            -----------
                            So obviously not a single general ever drank during the war.
                             
                            Regards,
                            Cash
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