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Re: [civilwarwest] JAN -JUN 1862 in the western theater

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  • SDE80@aol.com
    In a message dated 4/14/2009 2:10:31 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, fwnash@comcast.net writes: May I suggest Men of Fire by Jack Hurst Westview press, 2007. Not
    Message 1 of 30 , Apr 14, 2009
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      In a message dated 4/14/2009 2:10:31 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, fwnash@... writes:



      May I suggest Men of Fire by Jack Hurst Westview press, 2007. Not only does it focus on Grant and Forrest, it also explains the opening of the Tennessee and Cumberland Rivers extremely well in your time period.

       
      Speaking of newer books, I think if you're going to study this time period, you should look at the dissertation that was published a couple of years ago, which the historians at Shiloh deem among the best histories of that campaign:
       
       
      Sam Elliott


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    • John D. Beatty
      To NOT hold to a narrow timeframe means you re never going to be done, and your project will remained undefined. Do what your intuition tells you and above all
      Message 2 of 30 , Apr 15, 2009
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        To NOT hold to a narrow timeframe means you're never going to be done, and your project will remained undefined.

        Do what your intuition tells you and above all FINISH IT.  Too many projects like this go to press half-done.

        ___________________________
        John D. Beatty
        Co-Author of "What Were They Thinking" from Merriam Press/Lulu
        "History is our only test for the consequences of ideas"

        -------- Original Message --------
        Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: JAN -JUN 1862 in the western theater
        From: "Ronald black" <rblack0981@...>
        Date: Tue, April 14, 2009 10:08 am
        To: <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>



        Why discuss a time frame in such narrow limits.  The planning of these events occurred well before the action happened.  Afterwards, the effects certainly after the events with some taking longer to be noticed or felt.  As a example, it can be argued that the planning for Grant's river campaign (Fts Henry/Donelson) started in December, 1861 following the Battle of Belmont.  The beginning stage for the Battle of Belmont was in November and December, 1861.  The effects of Shiloh and Corinth continued long after the actual events.  To hold to a narrow time frame is nit-picking.
        Ron  
         
        Jan-May would be the logical separation: Zollicoffer is killed, Donelson falls to Grant, Buell moves south to Nashville, both armies converge on Shiloh, Halleck takes Corinth, New Orleans falls to Farragut.

        So the logical periods are Jan-May, Jun-August, Oct-Dec.


         

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      • William H Keene
        ... I also used Nov twice. I dont think segments like this all end nicely on the last day of the month.
        Message 3 of 30 , Apr 15, 2009
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          --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Tony Gunter" <tony_gunter@...> wrote:
          >
          > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "William H Keene" <wh_keene@> wrote:
          > >
          > > > So the logical periods are Jan-May, Jun-August, Oct-Dec.
          > >
          > > I disagree. I'd do Jan-June; June-Nov; Nov-Apr'63; etc.
          >
          >
          > Bzzt. You used June twice!
          >
          > :D

          I also used Nov twice. I dont think segments like this all end nicely on the last day of the month.
        • jackdotsmit
          WOW thanks for all the replies. i did not realize all this was going on i thought i would get an email stating things had been posted. any way to answer a few
          Message 4 of 30 , Apr 15, 2009
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            WOW thanks for all the replies. i did not realize all this was going on i thought i would get an email stating things had been posted.

            any way to answer a few questions and a comment or two. this actual question is one of my upper level history classses. the dates are defined or set on me by the professor. Like you all, i have wondered why these dates and how do i exactly define the western theater. TO be honest many hours have gone into this question with the same result historians ignored it for the most part or failed to define theater or maybe nothing really happened other than a few battles during this time frame. this is why i am seeking the opinion of you the experts. It is my phone a friend question. I was hoping this fourm dedicated to my question may have a succint answer that is to the point. If this was winter of 182 to 1863 it would be easy well easier, amazingly this is the last question of my college career and is kicking my butt. I have 4 days to answer the question. if i can compile a good answer from the contributers here I will be able to post a comprehnsive answer you will all enjoy. i don't intend to just chronologicly list the actions and battles, but expound on the defintiion of what the theater consist of and what actually happened from JAN to JUN that may have contributed to the souths demise or the norths victory. I believe New Orleans fell in this time period and that is huge in itself. any way thanks in advance for your help and keep posting. i know now to check regularly
          • jackdotsmit
            ... Mark, That page in that book is one of my go to spots to date. thanks for the insight and direction.
            Message 5 of 30 , Apr 15, 2009
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              --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, navalhistorymark@... wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              > James McPherson, in Battle Cry of Freedom (422), quotes a Union newspaper describing the first half of the year as a "Deluge of Victories in the West." Between February and June 1862 Union forces won battles at Forts Henry and Donelson, Island Number 10, Shiloh, Memphis, and New Orleans, occupied fifty thousand square miles of Confederate territory, gained control of one thousand miles of navigable rivers, and captured two state capitals.
              >
              >
              >
              > The Confederacy lost a significant portion of its resources and manufacturing capability during the first half of 1862 with the capture of Nashville, Memphis and New Orleans. Several scholarly general histories, economic and naval studies of the war point this out. IMHO, this leads back to the decisive decision to build the western rivers ironclads at the end of 1861, which made the early victories on the rivers possible.
              >
              >
              >
              > Mark
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "Tony Gunter" <tony_gunter@...>
              > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Monday, April 13, 2009 2:34:12 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
              > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: JAN -JUN 1862 in the western theater
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com , "jackdotsmit" <jackdotsmit@> wrote:
              > >
              > > I am trying to do a chronological analysis of the western theater from Jan -Jun 1862 and the importance of this period specifically. I have been unable to find good information of this period as to why it is significant; if it is significant and exactly what states defined the western theater in this time frame. Many historians differ on the territory and states considered the western theater. Best I can tell this is where Grant made a name for himself. This particular time in history seems to be left unexamined or I am looking in the wrong books. IT is easy to chronologically list the battles and the 1000 that died, but I want to learn what impact these battles had on the war, the people that fought the battles and the united states as a whole. Was this a turning point? Any insight or direction you can provide for this specific period would be helpful.
              > >
              >
              > Why Jan-Jun? That's very specific, and is not bounded by any logical events. Why not Feb-May? Why not Jan-Oct?
              >
              > That's a REALLY strange question for a new poster.
              >
              > :D
              >
              Mark,
              That page in that book is one of my go to spots to date.
              thanks for the insight and direction.
            • jackdotsmit
              ... Mark, I posted this already but I cannot figure out this posting thing. so if it is a repeat i am sorry. ANyhoo, the book you listed is on my desk and i
              Message 6 of 30 , Apr 15, 2009
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                --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, navalhistorymark@... wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                > James McPherson, in Battle Cry of Freedom (422), quotes a Union newspaper describing the first half of the year as a "Deluge of Victories in the West." Between February and June 1862 Union forces won battles at Forts Henry and Donelson, Island Number 10, Shiloh, Memphis, and New Orleans, occupied fifty thousand square miles of Confederate territory, gained control of one thousand miles of navigable rivers, and captured two state capitals.
                >
                >
                >
                > The Confederacy lost a significant portion of its resources and manufacturing capability during the first half of 1862 with the capture of Nashville, Memphis and New Orleans. Several scholarly general histories, economic and naval studies of the war point this out. IMHO, this leads back to the decisive decision to build the western rivers ironclads at the end of 1861, which made the early victories on the rivers possible.
                >
                >
                >
                > Mark
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "Tony Gunter" <tony_gunter@...>
                > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Monday, April 13, 2009 2:34:12 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
                > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: JAN -JUN 1862 in the western theater
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com , "jackdotsmit" <jackdotsmit@> wrote:
                > >
                > > I am trying to do a chronological analysis of the western theater from Jan -Jun 1862 and the importance of this period specifically. I have been unable to find good information of this period as to why it is significant; if it is significant and exactly what states defined the western theater in this time frame. Many historians differ on the territory and states considered the western theater. Best I can tell this is where Grant made a name for himself. This particular time in history seems to be left unexamined or I am looking in the wrong books. IT is easy to chronologically list the battles and the 1000 that died, but I want to learn what impact these battles had on the war, the people that fought the battles and the united states as a whole. Was this a turning point? Any insight or direction you can provide for this specific period would be helpful.
                > >
                >
                > Why Jan-Jun? That's very specific, and is not bounded by any logical events. Why not Feb-May? Why not Jan-Oct?
                >
                > That's a REALLY strange question for a new poster.
                >
                > :D
                >
                Mark,
                I posted this already but I cannot figure out this posting thing. so if it is a repeat i am sorry. ANyhoo, the book you listed is on my desk and i ahve been able to learn much from Battle Cry of Freedom.
                that page is about the only concise direct informat in any format directly related to my subject.

                Tony,
                I hope i provide the answers you ask for. I posted replies but i have no idea if they hit the board. I cannot find them.
              • Tony Gunter
                ... DING DING DING!!! That s exactly what I was digging for. Sounded just like a homework assignment.
                Message 7 of 30 , Apr 17, 2009
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                  --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "jackdotsmit" <jackdotsmit@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > WOW thanks for all the replies. i did not realize all this was going on i thought i would get an email stating things had been posted.
                  >
                  > any way to answer a few questions and a comment or two. this actual question is one of my upper level history classses.

                  DING DING DING!!!

                  That's exactly what I was digging for. Sounded just like a homework assignment.
                • keeno2@aol.com
                  Ding, Ding, Ding. If it weren t for the students looking for answers, we d have no board next year. Bless their hearts and keep them coming. Ken
                  Message 8 of 30 , Apr 17, 2009
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                    Ding, Ding, Ding. If it weren't for the students looking for answers, we'd have no board next year. Bless their hearts and keep them coming.
                     
                    Ken


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                  • Dick Weeks
                    I agree Ken. I knew when he asked for a membership what he was looking for. I could have posted and told everyone about it but I wanted to see if we had any
                    Message 9 of 30 , Apr 17, 2009
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                      I agree Ken.  I knew when he asked for a membership what he was looking for.  I could have posted and told everyone about it but I wanted to see if we had any real Civil War enthusiasts left in the group. I know that many disapprove of the hard handed tactics I use in this group.  That is, "Break the rules and you are gone.  No questions asked, no apologies given."  Over the years we have lost a lot of good people that I personally would have preferred not to lose.  They just didn't want to follow the rules and therefore they were gone.  We have also lost many that I think we are better off without.  My goal in maintaining this group is to have about 20% of the very best in their knowledge of the Western Theater.  This 20% supplies the rest of the us that comprise the other 80% with the knowledge that we could never gain from books.  You are the instructors, we are the students.  I think those of you that answered the email for the student showed that I have not been wrong in my tactics.  The best are still here.  Even though there is not as many discussions in the group as I would like, when they do come, they are from the top of the line.  Thanks a lot for hanging in there!
                       
                      I am, very respectfully, your obedient servant,
                      Dick (a.k.a. Shotgun)
                      http://www.civilwarhome.com
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 8:42 PM
                      Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: JAN -JUN 1862 in the western theater

                      Ding, Ding, Ding. If it weren't for the students looking for answers, we'd have no board next year. Bless their hearts and keep them coming.
                       
                      Ken


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                    • keeno2@aol.com
                      High praise, indeed, Shotgun. I m humbled. On other boards, I m Ole and almost as vicious as you.. But I like to see the student asking a a really dumb
                      Message 10 of 30 , Apr 17, 2009
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                        High praise, indeed, Shotgun. I'm humbled. On other boards, I'm Ole and almost as vicious as you.. But I like to see the student asking a  a really dumb question, and then have about 47 people jump on him. But then there is one or two that ask something thoughtful. I really do want to see that youngster given the very best us old farts have to offer.


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                      • gnrljejohnston
                        ... As a former teacher, I use to tell my students.... there is no such thing as a stupid question for it shows that there is doubt in your mind....however,
                        Message 11 of 30 , Apr 22, 2009
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                          --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, keeno2@... wrote:
                          >
                          > High praise, indeed, Shotgun. I'm humbled. On other boards, I'm Ole and
                          > almost as vicious as you.. But I like to see the student asking a a really
                          > dumb question, and then have about 47 people jump on him. But then there is
                          > one or two that ask something thoughtful. I really do want to see that
                          > youngster given the very best us old farts have to offer.
                          > **************Access 350+ FREE radio stations anytime from anywhere on the
                          > web. Get the Radio Toolbar!
                          > (http://toolbar.aol.com/aolradio/download.html?ncid=emlcntusdown00000003)
                          >

                          As a former teacher, I use to tell my students....
                          "there is no such thing as a stupid question for it shows that there is doubt in your mind....however, you may receive a stupid answer."

                          JEJ
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