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Re: JAN -JUN 1862 in the western theater

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  • Ron Black
    ... Jack; It is hard at times to define what the Western Theater was. As the military situation changed, so did the defination of the region and the authority
    Message 1 of 30 , Apr 13 9:40 AM
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      --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "jackdotsmit" <jackdotsmit@...> wrote:
      >
      > I am trying to do a chronological analysis of the western theater from Jan -Jun 1862 and the importance of this period specifically. I have been unable to find good information of this period as to why it is significant; if it is significant and exactly what states defined the western theater in this time frame. Many historians differ on the territory and states considered the western theater. Best I can tell this is where Grant made a name for himself. This particular time in history seems to be left unexamined or I am looking in the wrong books. IT is easy to chronologically list the battles and the 1000 that died, but I want to learn what impact these battles had on the war, the people that fought the battles and the united states as a whole. Was this a turning point? Any insight or direction you can provide for this specific period would be helpful.
      >

      Jack;
      It is hard at times to define what the Western Theater was. As the military situation changed, so did the defination of the region and the authority and responsibility of the commanders. I define the Western Theater as the Mississippi River valley. That may sound to be a narrow defination but it includes almost all of the campaigns and battles of the time period you mention. Included is Grant's campaigh down the Tennessee and Cumberland Rivers, FT's Henry and Donelson because the Tennessee River campaign was an extension to the Mississippi River valley. These side campaigns is how the federals got down the Mississippi. Therefore also included are Shiloh, Corinth, Iuka, Memphis, Fort Pillow, Island #10, Columbus Kentucky. Not included is the west bank of the river (except Island #10) because it was bad terrain. I would include the west bank after July 1862 as the action moved down river at and below Memphis and Helena Ark.
      The area east of Nashville and down to northern Alabama I include in the Central Theater, Chickamauga, Tullahoma, Knoxville, Chattanoonga and the Atlanta campaign and battles.
      In the time frame you provide, I suggest that the Tennessee River campaign was the most important with military actions at Fts Henry, Heiman and Donelson, Shiloh and the seige of Corinth.
      Hope this helps
      Ron
    • Nick KURTZ
      Traditionally the Western theater is the Appalachians to the Mississippi River. The Trans-Mississippi is everything west of the Mississippi. This period is
      Message 2 of 30 , Apr 13 10:31 AM
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        Traditionally the Western theater is the Appalachians to the Mississippi River.  The Trans-Mississippi is everything west of the Mississippi.  This period is important because its when the Western theater is first penetrated by large Union forces. 
        --Nick
         

         

        To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
        From: jackdotsmit@...
        Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 16:14:48 +0000
        Subject: [civilwarwest] JAN -JUN 1862 in the western theater



        I am trying to do a chronological analysis of the western theater from Jan -Jun 1862 and the importance of this period specifically. I have been unable to find good information of this period as to why it is significant; if it is significant and exactly what states defined the western theater in this time frame. Many historians differ on the territory and states considered the western theater. Best I can tell this is where Grant made a name for himself. This particular time in history seems to be left unexamined or I am looking in the wrong books. IT is easy to chronologically list the battles and the 1000 that died, but I want to learn what impact these battles had on the war, the people that fought the battles and the united states as a whole. Was this a turning point? Any insight or direction you can provide for this specific period would be helpful.


      • John D. Beatty
        Most CW books aren t going to tell you about the importance of that period in the West except through the lens of McClellan and the Peninsula. The Shiloh raid
        Message 3 of 30 , Apr 13 10:48 AM
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          Most CW books aren't going to tell you about the importance of that period in the West except through the lens of McClellan and the Peninsula.  The Shiloh raid in April 1862 was, for the Confederacy, their first strategic offensive and the largest army they would put together west of the Alleghenies until September 1863.  The biggest issue in the West (which is easy to define: Everything west of the Tennessee border) was control of the rivers, being the Cumberland, Ohio, Tennessee, Mississippi and Yazoo, to start.  It was a deal more complex than that, but the most important avenues of transportation at that time were the waterways.  Rails were important and getting more important with every month, but in the period you're talking about it was first rivers, then rails.

          Getting to Shiloh meant displacing the Confederates in Kentucky and middle Tennessee, and that was done by taking Forts Henry and Donelson.  Both were done using waterborne mobility.  Corinth as a rail junction was important to the region, but after the fall of Island #10 and New Orleans it lost its signficance as a transportation hub in the Mississippi Valley.  By the time Hallekc low-crawled Grant's and Buell's combined armies there it was pretty well superfluous.

          Leading the troops doing most of the Union's military maneuvering was indeed Grant, but Charles F. Smith was an important influence on the decision to move on Corinth from Fort Henry amd Nashville via Pittsburg Landing.  Smith died just after Shiloh of sepsis and had no command during the battle, but history seems to ignore him.  Ignored in all of this was the importance of Tennessee itself.  A quarter of the powder production and nearly half the beef and hogs in the trans-Appalacians came from middle and western Tennessee.  Without Tennessee no Confederate army east of the Mississippi and west of Virginia could easily feed itself.

          Maybe this will help...but maybe my book will.

          ___________________________
          John D. Beatty
          Co-Author of "What Were They Thinking" from Merriam Press/Lulu
          "History is our only test for the consequences of ideas"

          -------- Original Message --------
          Subject: [civilwarwest] JAN -JUN 1862 in the western theater
          From: "jackdotsmit" <jackdotsmit@...>
          Date: Mon, April 13, 2009 11:14 am
          To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com



          I am trying to do a chronological analysis of the western theater from Jan -Jun 1862 and the importance of this period specifically. I have been unable to find good information of this period as to why it is significant; if it is significant and exactly what states defined the western theater in this time frame. Many historians differ on the territory and states considered the western theater. Best I can tell this is where Grant made a name for himself. This particular time in history seems to be left unexamined or I am looking in the wrong books. IT is easy to chronologically list the battles and the 1000 that died, but I want to learn what impact these battles had on the war, the people that fought the battles and the united states as a whole. Was this a turning point? Any insight or direction you can provide for this specific period would be helpful.

        • Tony Gunter
          ... Why Jan-Jun? That s very specific, and is not bounded by any logical events. Why not Feb-May? Why not Jan-Oct? That s a REALLY strange question for a
          Message 4 of 30 , Apr 13 11:34 AM
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            --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "jackdotsmit" <jackdotsmit@...> wrote:
            >
            > I am trying to do a chronological analysis of the western theater from Jan -Jun 1862 and the importance of this period specifically. I have been unable to find good information of this period as to why it is significant; if it is significant and exactly what states defined the western theater in this time frame. Many historians differ on the territory and states considered the western theater. Best I can tell this is where Grant made a name for himself. This particular time in history seems to be left unexamined or I am looking in the wrong books. IT is easy to chronologically list the battles and the 1000 that died, but I want to learn what impact these battles had on the war, the people that fought the battles and the united states as a whole. Was this a turning point? Any insight or direction you can provide for this specific period would be helpful.
            >

            Why Jan-Jun? That's very specific, and is not bounded by any logical events. Why not Feb-May? Why not Jan-Oct?

            That's a REALLY strange question for a new poster.

            :D
          • navalhistorymark@comcast.net
            James McPherson, in Battle Cry of Freedom (422), quotes a Union newspaper describing the first half of the year as a Deluge of Victories in the
            Message 5 of 30 , Apr 13 2:00 PM
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              James McPherson, in Battle Cry of Freedom (422), quotes a Union newspaper describing the first half of the year as a "Deluge of Victories in the West." Between February and June 1862 Union forces won battles at Forts Henry and Donelson, Island Number 10, Shiloh, Memphis, and New Orleans, occupied fifty thousand square miles of Confederate territory, gained control of one thousand miles of navigable rivers, and captured two state capitals.

               

              The Confederacy lost a significant portion of its resources and manufacturing capability during the first half of 1862 with the capture of Nashville, Memphis and New Orleans. Several scholarly general histories, economic and naval studies of the war point this out. IMHO, this leads back to the decisive decision to build the western rivers ironclads at the end of 1861, which made the early victories on the rivers possible.

               

              Mark

               


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Tony Gunter" <tony_gunter@...>
              To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Monday, April 13, 2009 2:34:12 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
              Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: JAN -JUN 1862 in the western theater



              --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "jackdotsmit" <jackdotsmit@...> wrote:
              >
              > I am trying to do a chronological analysis of the western theater from Jan -Jun 1862 and the importance of this period specifically. I have been unable to find good information of this period as to why it is significant; if it is significant and exactly what states defined the western theater in this time frame. Many historians differ on the territory and states considered the western theater. Best I can tell this is where Grant made a name for himself. This particular time in history seems to be left unexamined or I am looking in the wrong books. IT is easy to chronologically list the battles and the 1000 that died, but I want to learn what impact these battles had on the war, the people that fought the battles and the united states as a whole. Was this a turning point? Any insight or direction you can provide for this specific period would be helpful.
              >

              Why Jan-Jun? That's very specific, and is not bounded by any logical events. Why not Feb-May? Why not Jan-Oct?

              That's a REALLY strange question for a new poster.

              :D

            • Joseph R. Reinhart
              Tony Check Fort Donelson s Legacy: War and Society in Kentucky and Tennessee, 1862-1863 by Benjamin Franklin Cooling (Hardcover - Jul 1997) and Ken
              Message 6 of 30 , Apr 13 2:05 PM
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                Tony
                Check Fort Donelson's Legacy: War and Society in Kentucky and Tennessee, 1862-1863 by Benjamin Franklin Cooling (Hardcover - Jul 1997) and Ken Hafendorfer's The Battle of Mill Springs, Kentucky. Also books on the Battle of Shiloh.


                From: Tony Gunter <tony_gunter@...>
                To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Monday, April 13, 2009 2:34:12 PM
                Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: JAN -JUN 1862 in the western theater

                --- In civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com, "jackdotsmit" <jackdotsmit@ ...> wrote:
                >
                > I am trying to do a chronological analysis of the western theater from Jan -Jun 1862 and the importance of this period specifically. I have been unable to find good information of this period as to why it is significant; if it is significant and exactly what states defined the western theater in this time frame. Many historians differ on the territory and states considered the western theater. Best I can tell this is where Grant made a name for himself. This particular time in history seems to be left unexamined or I am looking in the wrong books. IT is easy to chronologically list the battles and the 1000 that died, but I want to learn what impact these battles had on the war, the people that fought the battles and the united states as a whole. Was this a turning point? Any insight or direction you can provide for this specific period would be helpful.
                >

                Why Jan-Jun? That's very specific, and is not bounded by any logical events. Why not Feb-May? Why not Jan-Oct?

                That's a REALLY strange question for a new poster.

                :D

              • Tony Gunter
                ... I see, if you include Mill Springs and Memphis, it extends it to Jan-June. The central theme of this peroid is Halleck and Grant s campaign to turn
                Message 7 of 30 , Apr 13 4:39 PM
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                  --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, navalhistorymark@... wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > James McPherson, in Battle Cry of Freedom (422), quotes a Union newspaper describing the first half of the year as a "Deluge of Victories in the West." Between February and June 1862 Union forces won battles at Forts Henry and Donelson, Island Number 10, Shiloh, Memphis, and New Orleans, occupied fifty thousand square miles of Confederate territory, gained control of one thousand miles of navigable rivers, and captured two state capitals.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > The Confederacy lost a significant portion of its resources and manufacturing capability during the first half of 1862 with the capture of Nashville, Memphis and New Orleans. Several scholarly general histories, economic and naval studies of the war point this out. IMHO, this leads back to the decisive decision to build the western rivers ironclads at the end of 1861, which made the early victories on the rivers possible.
                  >


                  I see, if you include Mill Springs and Memphis, it extends it to Jan-June. The central theme of this peroid is Halleck and Grant's campaign to turn Columbus via the Tennessee River ... which is really Feb-May.
                • William H Keene
                  ... I would think that any book covering Shiloh or Fort Donelson would discuss the importance of the period.
                  Message 8 of 30 , Apr 13 6:00 PM
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                    --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "jackdotsmit" <jackdotsmit@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I am trying to do a chronological analysis of the western theater from Jan -Jun 1862 and the importance of this period specifically. I have been unable to find good information of this period as to why it is significant;

                    I would think that any book covering Shiloh or Fort Donelson would discuss the importance of the period.
                  • gnrljejohnston
                    ... The Western Theater in a sense was really two theaters. One fought by Grant and the Army of the Tennessee and the other fought by Don Carlos Buell and
                    Message 9 of 30 , Apr 13 6:03 PM
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                      --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "jackdotsmit" <jackdotsmit@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I am trying to do a chronological analysis of the western theater from Jan -Jun 1862 and the importance of this period specifically. I have been unable to find good information of this period as to why it is significant; if it is significant and exactly what states defined the western theater in this time frame. Many historians differ on the territory and states considered the western theater.

                      The Western Theater in a sense was really two theaters. One fought by Grant and the Army of the Tennessee and the other fought by Don Carlos Buell and later Rosecrans with the Army of the Cumberland. To look at the Western Theater, you have to look at both of these armies.

                      J+EJ
                    • William H Keene
                      ... Seems logical to me. January is when activity started in Kentucky. June is when the US initiative fizzled out. ... Seems like a fine question.
                      Message 10 of 30 , Apr 13 6:13 PM
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                        --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Tony Gunter" <tony_gunter@...> wrote:

                        > Why Jan-Jun? That's very specific, and is not bounded by any logical events. Why not Feb-May? Why not Jan-Oct?

                        Seems logical to me.
                        January is when activity started in Kentucky.
                        June is when the US initiative fizzled out.


                        > That's a REALLY strange question for a new poster.

                        Seems like a fine question.
                      • James W. Durney
                        Check the book, Decision in the Heartland: The Civil War in the West (Reflections on the Civil War Era) (Hardcover) by Steven E. Woodworth (Author)
                        Message 11 of 30 , Apr 14 4:08 AM
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                          Check the book, Decision in the Heartland: The Civil War in the West (Reflections on the Civil War Era) (Hardcover)
                          by Steven E. Woodworth (Author)
                        • Tony Gunter
                          ... Exactly ... it s taking the logical boundary one month too far. Jan-May would be the logical separation: Zollicoffer is killed, Donelson falls to Grant,
                          Message 12 of 30 , Apr 14 5:10 AM
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                            --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "William H Keene" <wh_keene@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Tony Gunter" <tony_gunter@> wrote:
                            >
                            > > Why Jan-Jun? That's very specific, and is not bounded by any logical events. Why not Feb-May? Why not Jan-Oct?
                            >
                            > Seems logical to me.
                            > January is when activity started in Kentucky.
                            > June is when the US initiative fizzled out.

                            Exactly ... it's taking the logical boundary one month too far.

                            Jan-May would be the logical separation: Zollicoffer is killed, Donelson falls to Grant, Buell moves south to Nashville, both armies converge on Shiloh, Halleck takes Corinth, New Orleans falls to Farragut.

                            June is the beginning of a great federal denouement: the great federal army at Corinth is split up, Rosecrans creeps towards Chattanooga only to be thwarted, Halleck is called away to Washington, Farragut fails to force the capitulation of Vicksburg, Bragg wrests the initiative from the federals and invades Kentucky, the Confederates fortify Port Hudson and Snyder's Bluff securing the Red and Yazoo Rivers to Confederate navigation.

                            Then in October we see Grant, though left with barely enough forces to hold the ground that he has been ordered to defend, decide on his own to reclaim the initiative in the west. At the same time, Bragg withdraws to Knoxville.

                            So the logical periods are Jan-May, Jun-August, Oct-Dec.
                          • William H Keene
                            ... Not in my opinion. ... To me it makes sense to continue into June with the pursuit after Corinth, the initial move toward Chattanooga, the capture of
                            Message 13 of 30 , Apr 14 6:50 AM
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                              --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Tony Gunter" <tony_gunter@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "William H Keene" <wh_keene@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Tony Gunter" <tony_gunter@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > > Why Jan-Jun? That's very specific, and is not bounded by any logical events. Why not Feb-May? Why not Jan-Oct?
                              > >
                              > > Seems logical to me.
                              > > January is when activity started in Kentucky.
                              > > June is when the US initiative fizzled out.
                              >
                              > Exactly ... it's taking the logical boundary one month too far.

                              Not in my opinion.


                              > Jan-May would be the logical separation: Zollicoffer is killed, Donelson falls to Grant, Buell moves south to Nashville, both armies converge on Shiloh, Halleck takes Corinth, New Orleans falls to Farragut.


                              To me it makes sense to continue into June with the pursuit after Corinth, the initial move toward Chattanooga, the capture of Memphis, the effort to take Vicksburg from below, etc. US forces still had some momentum into June.


                              > June is the beginning of a great federal denouement: the great federal army at Corinth is split up, Rosecrans creeps towards Chattanooga only to be thwarted,

                              You mean Buell?


                              > ... Halleck is called away to Washington,
                              > ... Farragut fails to force the capitulation of Vicksburg,

                              July


                              > ... Bragg wrests the initiative from the federals and invades Kentucky, the Confederates fortify Port Hudson and Snyder's Bluff securing the Red and Yazoo Rivers to Confederate navigation.
                              >

                              All subsequent to June.


                              > Then in October we see Grant, though left with barely enough forces to hold the ground that he has been ordered to defend, decide on his own to reclaim the initiative in the west. At the same time, Bragg withdraws to Knoxville.
                              >

                              The initiative was also being reclaimed by means of river based expeditions ordered by Washington.


                              > So the logical periods are Jan-May, Jun-August, Oct-Dec.

                              I disagree. I'd do Jan-June; June-Nov; Nov-Apr'63; etc.
                            • Tony Gunter
                              ... Bzzt. You used June twice!
                              Message 14 of 30 , Apr 14 7:40 AM
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                                --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "William H Keene" <wh_keene@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > > So the logical periods are Jan-May, Jun-August, Oct-Dec.
                                >
                                > I disagree. I'd do Jan-June; June-Nov; Nov-Apr'63; etc.


                                Bzzt. You used June twice!

                                :D
                              • hank9174
                                ... Ron hits the nail on the head. The Western Theater is a broad front. The Union key is to get forces concentrated and working in harmony while occupying
                                Message 15 of 30 , Apr 14 7:54 AM
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                                  --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Ron Black" <rblack0981@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "jackdotsmit" <jackdotsmit@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > I am trying to do a chronological analysis of the western theater from Jan -Jun 1862 and the importance of this period specifically. I have been unable to find good information of this period as to why it is significant; if it is significant and exactly what states defined the western theater in this time frame. Many historians differ on the territory and states considered the western theater. Best I can tell this is where Grant made a name for himself. This particular time in history seems to be left unexamined or I am looking in the wrong books. IT is easy to chronologically list the battles and the 1000 that died, but I want to learn what impact these battles had on the war, the people that fought the battles and the united states as a whole. Was this a turning point? Any insight or direction you can provide for this specific period would be helpful.
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  > Jack;
                                  > It is hard at times to define what the Western Theater was. As the military situation changed, so did the defination of the region and the authority and responsibility of the commanders. I define the Western Theater as the Mississippi River valley. That may sound to be a narrow defination but it includes almost all of the campaigns and battles of the time period you mention. Included is Grant's campaigh down the Tennessee and Cumberland Rivers, FT's Henry and Donelson because the Tennessee River campaign was an extension to the Mississippi River valley. These side campaigns is how the federals got down the Mississippi. Therefore also included are Shiloh, Corinth, Iuka, Memphis, Fort Pillow, Island #10, Columbus Kentucky. Not included is the west bank of the river (except Island #10) because it was bad terrain. I would include the west bank after July 1862 as the action moved down river at and below Memphis and Helena Ark.
                                  > The area east of Nashville and down to northern Alabama I include in the Central Theater, Chickamauga, Tullahoma, Knoxville, Chattanoonga and the Atlanta campaign and battles.
                                  > In the time frame you provide, I suggest that the Tennessee River campaign was the most important with military actions at Fts Henry, Heiman and Donelson, Shiloh and the seige of Corinth.

                                  Ron hits the nail on the head. The Western Theater is a broad front. The Union key is to get forces concentrated and working in harmony while occupying territory and supply sources and cutting Confederate communication lines.

                                  The fall of Nashville brings 2 US armies together in time for the next outward push toward Vicksburg and Chattanooga. In general, the Army of the Cumberland eventually operates from Nashville and the Army of the Tennessee out of Memphis.

                                  Do not forget the 'trans-Mississippi'. Though virtually impossible to work in concert with their more-eastern comrades it serves as a proving ground for Grant, Sherman and Sheridan and a potential thorn in the side of eastern maneuvers.


                                  Cheers,
                                  HankC
                                • Ronald black
                                  Why discuss a time frame in such narrow limits. The planning of these events occurred well before the action happened. Afterwards, the effects certainly
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Apr 14 8:08 AM
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                                    Why discuss a time frame in such narrow limits.  The planning of these events occurred well before the action happened.  Afterwards, the effects certainly after the events with some taking longer to be noticed or felt.  As a example, it can be argued that the planning for Grant's river campaign (Fts Henry/Donelson) started in December, 1861 following the Battle of Belmont.  The beginning stage for the Battle of Belmont was in November and December, 1861.  The effects of Shiloh and Corinth continued long after the actual events.  To hold to a narrow time frame is nit-picking.
                                    Ron  
                                     

                                    Jan-May would be the logical separation: Zollicoffer is killed, Donelson falls to Grant, Buell moves south to Nashville, both armies converge on Shiloh, Halleck takes Corinth, New Orleans falls to Farragut.

                                    So the logical periods are Jan-May, Jun-August, Oct-Dec.



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                                  • Tony Gunter
                                    ... Oh my! I disagree. Civil war strategy was kind of an ad-hoc adventure this early in the game. But why limit the period to JUST Jan-Jun then? Why not
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Apr 14 9:27 AM
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                                      --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Ronald black" <rblack0981@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Why discuss a time frame in such narrow limits. The planning of
                                      > these events occurred well before the action happened.

                                      Oh my! I disagree. Civil war strategy was kind of an ad-hoc adventure this early in the game.

                                      But why limit the period to JUST Jan-Jun then? Why not Nov-July? Why not July-July?

                                      June begins a period of federal screwups and half-hearted efforts that follow what was considered at the time game-changing federal victories (Halleck thought the war would probably end after the capture of Corinth!). I think if you're going to define a period at all, you need to end it in May.
                                    • fwnash@comcast.net
                                      Apr 14 Only two more days to hide your assets offshore! May I suggest Men of Fire by Jack Hurst Westview press, 2007. Not only does it focus on Grant and
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Apr 14 11:09 AM
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                                        Apr 14

                                        Only two more days to hide your assets offshore!

                                        May I suggest Men of Fire by Jack Hurst Westview press, 2007. Not only does it focus on Grant and Forrest, it also explains the opening of the Tennessee and Cumberland Rivers extremely well in your time period. It explains the difficulties between Gen Grant and Capt William J Kountz of Pittsburgh. Kountz was appointed by Sec or War Cameron, also of PA, to serve as commodore of river transportation. Kountz tried to run the operation like a steamboat business offering cost saving suggestions on fuel, the purchase of steamboats, etc. He tried to work with rivermen who were already unhappy with him and their government pay that was far below their pre-war level. Grant was trying to move an army. Grant arrested Kountz on Jan 14. Kountz made formal accusations against Grant in a letter to Halleck HQ in St Louis hoping to have Grant replaced.

                                        Talk about office pressure. That environment would drive any normal person to look for relief in that demon alcohol.

                                        The steamboat guy








                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: "jackdotsmit" <jackdotsmit@...>
                                        To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Monday, April 13, 2009 12:14:48 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
                                        Subject: [civilwarwest] JAN -JUN 1862 in the western theater

                                        I am trying to do a chronological analysis of the western theater from Jan -Jun 1862 and the importance of this period specifically. I have been unable to find good information of this period as to why it is significant; if it is significant and exactly what states defined the western theater in this time frame. Many historians differ on the territory and states considered the western theater. Best I can tell this is where Grant made a name for himself. This particular time in history seems to be left unexamined or I am looking in the wrong books. IT is easy to chronologically list the battles and the 1000 that died, but I want to learn what impact these battles had on the war, the people that fought the battles and the united states as a whole. Was this a turning point? Any insight or direction you can provide for this specific period would be helpful.
                                      • SDE80@aol.com
                                        In a message dated 4/14/2009 2:10:31 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, fwnash@comcast.net writes: May I suggest Men of Fire by Jack Hurst Westview press, 2007. Not
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Apr 14 11:19 AM
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                                          In a message dated 4/14/2009 2:10:31 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, fwnash@... writes:



                                          May I suggest Men of Fire by Jack Hurst Westview press, 2007. Not only does it focus on Grant and Forrest, it also explains the opening of the Tennessee and Cumberland Rivers extremely well in your time period.

                                           
                                          Speaking of newer books, I think if you're going to study this time period, you should look at the dissertation that was published a couple of years ago, which the historians at Shiloh deem among the best histories of that campaign:
                                           
                                           
                                          Sam Elliott


                                          Why pay full price? Check out this month's deals on the new AOL Shopping.
                                        • John D. Beatty
                                          To NOT hold to a narrow timeframe means you re never going to be done, and your project will remained undefined. Do what your intuition tells you and above all
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Apr 15 5:02 AM
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                                            To NOT hold to a narrow timeframe means you're never going to be done, and your project will remained undefined.

                                            Do what your intuition tells you and above all FINISH IT.  Too many projects like this go to press half-done.

                                            ___________________________
                                            John D. Beatty
                                            Co-Author of "What Were They Thinking" from Merriam Press/Lulu
                                            "History is our only test for the consequences of ideas"

                                            -------- Original Message --------
                                            Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: JAN -JUN 1862 in the western theater
                                            From: "Ronald black" <rblack0981@...>
                                            Date: Tue, April 14, 2009 10:08 am
                                            To: <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>



                                            Why discuss a time frame in such narrow limits.  The planning of these events occurred well before the action happened.  Afterwards, the effects certainly after the events with some taking longer to be noticed or felt.  As a example, it can be argued that the planning for Grant's river campaign (Fts Henry/Donelson) started in December, 1861 following the Battle of Belmont.  The beginning stage for the Battle of Belmont was in November and December, 1861.  The effects of Shiloh and Corinth continued long after the actual events.  To hold to a narrow time frame is nit-picking.
                                            Ron  
                                             
                                            Jan-May would be the logical separation: Zollicoffer is killed, Donelson falls to Grant, Buell moves south to Nashville, both armies converge on Shiloh, Halleck takes Corinth, New Orleans falls to Farragut.

                                            So the logical periods are Jan-May, Jun-August, Oct-Dec.


                                             

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                                          • William H Keene
                                            ... I also used Nov twice. I dont think segments like this all end nicely on the last day of the month.
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Apr 15 5:23 AM
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                                              --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Tony Gunter" <tony_gunter@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "William H Keene" <wh_keene@> wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > > So the logical periods are Jan-May, Jun-August, Oct-Dec.
                                              > >
                                              > > I disagree. I'd do Jan-June; June-Nov; Nov-Apr'63; etc.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Bzzt. You used June twice!
                                              >
                                              > :D

                                              I also used Nov twice. I dont think segments like this all end nicely on the last day of the month.
                                            • jackdotsmit
                                              WOW thanks for all the replies. i did not realize all this was going on i thought i would get an email stating things had been posted. any way to answer a few
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Apr 15 9:27 PM
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                                                WOW thanks for all the replies. i did not realize all this was going on i thought i would get an email stating things had been posted.

                                                any way to answer a few questions and a comment or two. this actual question is one of my upper level history classses. the dates are defined or set on me by the professor. Like you all, i have wondered why these dates and how do i exactly define the western theater. TO be honest many hours have gone into this question with the same result historians ignored it for the most part or failed to define theater or maybe nothing really happened other than a few battles during this time frame. this is why i am seeking the opinion of you the experts. It is my phone a friend question. I was hoping this fourm dedicated to my question may have a succint answer that is to the point. If this was winter of 182 to 1863 it would be easy well easier, amazingly this is the last question of my college career and is kicking my butt. I have 4 days to answer the question. if i can compile a good answer from the contributers here I will be able to post a comprehnsive answer you will all enjoy. i don't intend to just chronologicly list the actions and battles, but expound on the defintiion of what the theater consist of and what actually happened from JAN to JUN that may have contributed to the souths demise or the norths victory. I believe New Orleans fell in this time period and that is huge in itself. any way thanks in advance for your help and keep posting. i know now to check regularly
                                              • jackdotsmit
                                                ... Mark, That page in that book is one of my go to spots to date. thanks for the insight and direction.
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Apr 15 9:32 PM
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                                                  --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, navalhistorymark@... wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > James McPherson, in Battle Cry of Freedom (422), quotes a Union newspaper describing the first half of the year as a "Deluge of Victories in the West." Between February and June 1862 Union forces won battles at Forts Henry and Donelson, Island Number 10, Shiloh, Memphis, and New Orleans, occupied fifty thousand square miles of Confederate territory, gained control of one thousand miles of navigable rivers, and captured two state capitals.
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > The Confederacy lost a significant portion of its resources and manufacturing capability during the first half of 1862 with the capture of Nashville, Memphis and New Orleans. Several scholarly general histories, economic and naval studies of the war point this out. IMHO, this leads back to the decisive decision to build the western rivers ironclads at the end of 1861, which made the early victories on the rivers possible.
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Mark
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                                  > From: "Tony Gunter" <tony_gunter@...>
                                                  > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > Sent: Monday, April 13, 2009 2:34:12 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
                                                  > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: JAN -JUN 1862 in the western theater
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com , "jackdotsmit" <jackdotsmit@> wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > I am trying to do a chronological analysis of the western theater from Jan -Jun 1862 and the importance of this period specifically. I have been unable to find good information of this period as to why it is significant; if it is significant and exactly what states defined the western theater in this time frame. Many historians differ on the territory and states considered the western theater. Best I can tell this is where Grant made a name for himself. This particular time in history seems to be left unexamined or I am looking in the wrong books. IT is easy to chronologically list the battles and the 1000 that died, but I want to learn what impact these battles had on the war, the people that fought the battles and the united states as a whole. Was this a turning point? Any insight or direction you can provide for this specific period would be helpful.
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                  > Why Jan-Jun? That's very specific, and is not bounded by any logical events. Why not Feb-May? Why not Jan-Oct?
                                                  >
                                                  > That's a REALLY strange question for a new poster.
                                                  >
                                                  > :D
                                                  >
                                                  Mark,
                                                  That page in that book is one of my go to spots to date.
                                                  thanks for the insight and direction.
                                                • jackdotsmit
                                                  ... Mark, I posted this already but I cannot figure out this posting thing. so if it is a repeat i am sorry. ANyhoo, the book you listed is on my desk and i
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Apr 15 9:41 PM
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                                                    --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, navalhistorymark@... wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > James McPherson, in Battle Cry of Freedom (422), quotes a Union newspaper describing the first half of the year as a "Deluge of Victories in the West." Between February and June 1862 Union forces won battles at Forts Henry and Donelson, Island Number 10, Shiloh, Memphis, and New Orleans, occupied fifty thousand square miles of Confederate territory, gained control of one thousand miles of navigable rivers, and captured two state capitals.
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > The Confederacy lost a significant portion of its resources and manufacturing capability during the first half of 1862 with the capture of Nashville, Memphis and New Orleans. Several scholarly general histories, economic and naval studies of the war point this out. IMHO, this leads back to the decisive decision to build the western rivers ironclads at the end of 1861, which made the early victories on the rivers possible.
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > Mark
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                                    > From: "Tony Gunter" <tony_gunter@...>
                                                    > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                                    > Sent: Monday, April 13, 2009 2:34:12 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
                                                    > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: JAN -JUN 1862 in the western theater
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com , "jackdotsmit" <jackdotsmit@> wrote:
                                                    > >
                                                    > > I am trying to do a chronological analysis of the western theater from Jan -Jun 1862 and the importance of this period specifically. I have been unable to find good information of this period as to why it is significant; if it is significant and exactly what states defined the western theater in this time frame. Many historians differ on the territory and states considered the western theater. Best I can tell this is where Grant made a name for himself. This particular time in history seems to be left unexamined or I am looking in the wrong books. IT is easy to chronologically list the battles and the 1000 that died, but I want to learn what impact these battles had on the war, the people that fought the battles and the united states as a whole. Was this a turning point? Any insight or direction you can provide for this specific period would be helpful.
                                                    > >
                                                    >
                                                    > Why Jan-Jun? That's very specific, and is not bounded by any logical events. Why not Feb-May? Why not Jan-Oct?
                                                    >
                                                    > That's a REALLY strange question for a new poster.
                                                    >
                                                    > :D
                                                    >
                                                    Mark,
                                                    I posted this already but I cannot figure out this posting thing. so if it is a repeat i am sorry. ANyhoo, the book you listed is on my desk and i ahve been able to learn much from Battle Cry of Freedom.
                                                    that page is about the only concise direct informat in any format directly related to my subject.

                                                    Tony,
                                                    I hope i provide the answers you ask for. I posted replies but i have no idea if they hit the board. I cannot find them.
                                                  • Tony Gunter
                                                    ... DING DING DING!!! That s exactly what I was digging for. Sounded just like a homework assignment.
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Apr 17 4:43 PM
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                                                      --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "jackdotsmit" <jackdotsmit@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > WOW thanks for all the replies. i did not realize all this was going on i thought i would get an email stating things had been posted.
                                                      >
                                                      > any way to answer a few questions and a comment or two. this actual question is one of my upper level history classses.

                                                      DING DING DING!!!

                                                      That's exactly what I was digging for. Sounded just like a homework assignment.
                                                    • keeno2@aol.com
                                                      Ding, Ding, Ding. If it weren t for the students looking for answers, we d have no board next year. Bless their hearts and keep them coming. Ken
                                                      Message 26 of 30 , Apr 17 5:42 PM
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                                                        Ding, Ding, Ding. If it weren't for the students looking for answers, we'd have no board next year. Bless their hearts and keep them coming.
                                                         
                                                        Ken


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                                                      • Dick Weeks
                                                        I agree Ken. I knew when he asked for a membership what he was looking for. I could have posted and told everyone about it but I wanted to see if we had any
                                                        Message 27 of 30 , Apr 17 6:33 PM
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                                                          I agree Ken.  I knew when he asked for a membership what he was looking for.  I could have posted and told everyone about it but I wanted to see if we had any real Civil War enthusiasts left in the group. I know that many disapprove of the hard handed tactics I use in this group.  That is, "Break the rules and you are gone.  No questions asked, no apologies given."  Over the years we have lost a lot of good people that I personally would have preferred not to lose.  They just didn't want to follow the rules and therefore they were gone.  We have also lost many that I think we are better off without.  My goal in maintaining this group is to have about 20% of the very best in their knowledge of the Western Theater.  This 20% supplies the rest of the us that comprise the other 80% with the knowledge that we could never gain from books.  You are the instructors, we are the students.  I think those of you that answered the email for the student showed that I have not been wrong in my tactics.  The best are still here.  Even though there is not as many discussions in the group as I would like, when they do come, they are from the top of the line.  Thanks a lot for hanging in there!
                                                           
                                                          I am, very respectfully, your obedient servant,
                                                          Dick (a.k.a. Shotgun)
                                                          http://www.civilwarhome.com
                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                          Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 8:42 PM
                                                          Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: JAN -JUN 1862 in the western theater

                                                          Ding, Ding, Ding. If it weren't for the students looking for answers, we'd have no board next year. Bless their hearts and keep them coming.
                                                           
                                                          Ken


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                                                        • keeno2@aol.com
                                                          High praise, indeed, Shotgun. I m humbled. On other boards, I m Ole and almost as vicious as you.. But I like to see the student asking a a really dumb
                                                          Message 28 of 30 , Apr 17 8:43 PM
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                                                            High praise, indeed, Shotgun. I'm humbled. On other boards, I'm Ole and almost as vicious as you.. But I like to see the student asking a  a really dumb question, and then have about 47 people jump on him. But then there is one or two that ask something thoughtful. I really do want to see that youngster given the very best us old farts have to offer.


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                                                          • gnrljejohnston
                                                            ... As a former teacher, I use to tell my students.... there is no such thing as a stupid question for it shows that there is doubt in your mind....however,
                                                            Message 29 of 30 , Apr 22 12:15 PM
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                                                              --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, keeno2@... wrote:
                                                              >
                                                              > High praise, indeed, Shotgun. I'm humbled. On other boards, I'm Ole and
                                                              > almost as vicious as you.. But I like to see the student asking a a really
                                                              > dumb question, and then have about 47 people jump on him. But then there is
                                                              > one or two that ask something thoughtful. I really do want to see that
                                                              > youngster given the very best us old farts have to offer.
                                                              > **************Access 350+ FREE radio stations anytime from anywhere on the
                                                              > web. Get the Radio Toolbar!
                                                              > (http://toolbar.aol.com/aolradio/download.html?ncid=emlcntusdown00000003)
                                                              >

                                                              As a former teacher, I use to tell my students....
                                                              "there is no such thing as a stupid question for it shows that there is doubt in your mind....however, you may receive a stupid answer."

                                                              JEJ
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