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Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge

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  • Tony Gunter
    ... laid ... It s going to take some digging to figure out who designed the BBRB defenses, going backwards through the OR from May. No easy text to search
    Message 1 of 23 , Sep 9 9:05 AM
      --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Williams" <carlw4514@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > if the author is to be believed, Bowen's strong point was designing
      > defensive positions, as at Grand Gulf, so I'd guess someone else
      laid
      > out the defensive line

      It's going to take some digging to figure out who designed the BBRB
      defenses, going backwards through the OR from May. No easy text to
      search for, because it's just referred to as "the bridge." I know
      Bowen was positioned at the bridge for months before moving to Port
      Gibson, and the fortifications were started during that time.

      The physical flaw in the fortifications was that the defenses could
      be approached by a large body of men walking behind the natural levee
      of the river, until they got to a slough that provided a staging
      point just 100 yards from the defensive line. Making this a critical
      flaw was the fact that Pemberton had positioned a brigade composed
      largely of conscripts at this point, with no reserve to back them up.

      Pemberton could have prevented this by having sharpshooters posted on
      the north bank of the BBR, or by having his strongest unit posted at
      this point, or having a reserve that could fill into the gap if this
      point was successfully assaulted.

      As far as how the federal assault went down, a cavalryman reported
      the flaw to Lawler, who asked permission to attempt the works. Carr
      approved of Lawler's plan to shift his brigade to the river, which
      would leave a thousand-yard gap between his two brigades. Carr,
      without apparently going through McClernand, informed Osterhaus what
      was going on, and asked Osterhaus for a regiment of skirmishers to
      connect the two brigades with a long skirmish line.

      So not only was Carr's entire division engaged in the assault, but
      Osterhaus' men were aware of what was going on, and were ready to
      apply pressure if the Missourians in their front began to shift.

      We can only speculate what the beef was between Carr and McClernand,
      but I'm guessing by the promotion order suggested by McClernand that
      Carr felt his talents were being wasted and unrecognized.
    • Carl Williams
      Again that s The Forgotten Stonewall of the West : Major General John Stevens Bowen, Mercer University Press, 1997, by Phillip Thomas Tucker. Tom, the
      Message 2 of 23 , Sep 9 9:57 AM
        Again that's "The Forgotten 'Stonewall of the West': Major General
        John Stevens Bowen," Mercer University Press, 1997, by Phillip Thomas
        Tucker.

        Tom, the author managed to write an interesting story, even though the
        writing was not good. He reminded me of a High School student who has
        to write 150 words, finds he only wrote 100, so goes back and repeats
        the same sentences in a slightly different way... no kidding. It was
        very repetitive in this way.

        I otherwise have not boned up on Bowen, other than having noted that
        he seemed to be stand out at Champion Hill. So I can't tell if
        something was wrong with what the book had to say. I get the feeling
        that the author would be capable of glossing over Bowen's flaws. After
        all he poses Bowen as a Stonewall of the West; this is not to say
        'instead of Cleburne' but a special Stonewall in the category of
        'forgotten' I guess. The sort of glorifying that the book has makes
        you recall some old hero worshipping in the Southern style.
        Nonetheless he makes a pretty good case but perhaps historians would
        differ with him in important matters. As far as recommending it, you'd
        be happy with the book if you can look over the quality of the writing
        and the hero-worshipping sort of style. Obviously many could not
        overlook these things, so I'd say I'd generally not recommend it but
        was not sorry I read it myself

        Carl

        --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mix" <tmix@...> wrote:
        >
        > Carl,
        >
        > As you have progressed in the book, what is your general opinion of
        it now?
        > Still highly slanted toward Bowen and lacking in some accuracy? Kind of
        > sounds like it may have lived up to your original general
        impressions as you
        > began the book.
        >
        > Tom
        >
      • Tom Mix
        Thanks so much, Carl, for the honest appraisal. I think I ll take your advice and pass on it. Bowen was an excellent General but not a Stonewall. He did work
        Message 3 of 23 , Sep 9 4:06 PM

          Thanks so much, Carl, for the honest appraisal.  I think I’ll take your advice and pass on it. Bowen was an excellent General but not a Stonewall.  He did work better with others than Jackson and that speaks well of Bowen, who from readings was an excellent Division and Corps commander. It sounds like it may be better to just pick up information on him by reading books devoted to subjects where he was involved like Champion Hill which has had some fine books on it over the last several years.  

          If anyone out there board games, The Gamers “Champion Hill” is an excellent game and Bowen shines with a well deserved high rating in it.  Thanks to him and failure to get orders through I lost that battle once.  But not the next time.

          Tom

           

          -----Original Message-----
          From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carl Williams
          Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 11:58 AM
          To: civilwarwest@yahoogroupscom
          Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge

           


          Again that's "The Forgotten 'Stonewall of the West': Major General
          John Stevens Bowen," Mercer University Press, 1997, by Phillip Thomas
          Tucker.

          Tom, the author managed to write an interesting story, even though the
          writing was not good. He reminded me of a High School student who has
          to write 150 words, finds he only wrote 100, so goes back and repeats
          the same sentences in a slightly different way... no kidding. It was
          very repetitive in this way.

          I otherwise have not boned up on Bowen, other than having noted that
          he seemed to be stand out at Champion Hill. So I can't tell if
          something was wrong with what the book had to say. I get the feeling
          that the author would be capable of glossing over Bowen's flaws. After
          all he poses Bowen as a Stonewall of the West; this is not to say
          'instead of Cleburne' but a special Stonewall in the category of
          'forgotten' I guess. The sort of glorifying that the book has makes
          you recall some old hero worshipping in the Southern style.
          Nonetheless he makes a pretty good case but perhaps historians would
          differ with him in important matters. As far as recommending it, you'd
          be happy with the book if you can look over the quality of the writing
          and the hero-worshipping sort of style. Obviously many could not
          overlook these things, so I'd say I'd generally not recommend it but
          was not sorry I read it myself

          Carl

          --- In civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com, "Tom Mix" <tmix@...> wrote:

          >
          > Carl,
          >
          > As you have progressed in the book, what is your general opinion of
          it now?
          > Still highly slanted toward Bowen and lacking in some accuracy? Kind of
          > sounds like it may have lived up to your original general
          impressions as you
          > began the book.
          >
          > Tom
          >

        • Tony Gunter
          ... Carr ... what ... McClernand, ... that ... Whoah! Never caught this before, but apparently the beef was between McClernand and Grant himself. Grant
          Message 4 of 23 , Sep 10 2:37 PM
            --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Tony Gunter" <tony_gunter@...>
            wrote:
            >
            >
            > As far as how the federal assault went down, a cavalryman reported
            > the flaw to Lawler, who asked permission to attempt the works.
            Carr
            > approved of Lawler's plan to shift his brigade to the river, which
            > would leave a thousand-yard gap between his two brigades. Carr,
            > without apparently going through McClernand, informed Osterhaus
            what
            > was going on, and asked Osterhaus for a regiment of skirmishers to
            > connect the two brigades with a long skirmish line.
            >
            > So not only was Carr's entire division engaged in the assault, but
            > Osterhaus' men were aware of what was going on, and were ready to
            > apply pressure if the Missourians in their front began to shift.
            >
            > We can only speculate what the beef was between Carr and
            McClernand,
            > but I'm guessing by the promotion order suggested by McClernand
            that
            > Carr felt his talents were being wasted and unrecognized.

            Whoah! Never caught this before, but apparently the beef was between
            McClernand and Grant himself. Grant writes in his memoirs that he
            personally met Carr on Champion Hill, and ordered him to pursue
            Pemberton across the Big Black if possible, with Osterhaus to follow
            Carr.

            So apparently, Carr was operating independently of McClernand for
            this period by order of Grant, who possibly was miffed over
            McClernand's failure to show up at Champion Hill.
          • Carl Williams
            I m thinking McClernand is sorely missed at about the same time Bowen counter-attacks. That sort of timing can make an impression. ... wrote: [...]
            Message 5 of 23 , Sep 11 1:51 AM
              I'm thinking McClernand is sorely missed at about the same time Bowen
              counter-attacks. That sort of timing can make an impression.

              --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Tony Gunter" <tony_gunter@...>
              wrote:
              [...]
              >
              > So apparently, Carr was operating independently of McClernand for
              > this period by order of Grant, who possibly was miffed over
              > McClernand's failure to show up at Champion Hill.
              >
            • John LaPorta
              Thank you Tom  for all the information that you give freely in your posts..I wanted to ask where can you find civil war games like the one you mentioned? I am
              Message 6 of 23 , Sep 11 1:51 PM
                Thank you Tom  for all the information that you give freely in your posts.I wanted to ask where can you find civil war games like the one you mentioned? I am currently involved in the American Conquest a Divided Nation game on the internet and would like others any help appreciated.
                John ...the captain in Mississippi

                --- On Tue, 9/9/08, Tom Mix <tmix@...> wrote:
                From: Tom Mix <tmix@...>
                Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge
                To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Tuesday, September 9, 2008, 6:06 PM

                Thanks so much, Carl, for the honest appraisal.  I think I’ll take your advice and pass on it. Bowen was an excellent General but not a Stonewall.  He did work better with others than Jackson and that speaks well of Bowen, who from readings was an excellent Division and Corps commander. It sounds like it may be better to just pick up information on him by reading books devoted to subjects where he was involved like Champion Hill which has had some fine books on it over the last several years.  

                If anyone out there board games, The Gamers “Champion Hill” is an excellent game and Bowen shines with a well deserved high rating in it.  Thanks to him and failure to get orders through I lost that battle once.  But not the next time.

                Tom

                 

                -----Original Message-----
                From: civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:civilwarwes t@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Carl Williams
                Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 11:58 AM
                To: civilwarwest@ yahoogroupscom
                Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge

                 


                Again that's "The Forgotten 'Stonewall of the West': Major General
                John Stevens Bowen," Mercer University Press, 1997, by Phillip Thomas
                Tucker.

                Tom, the author managed to write an interesting story, even though the
                writing was not good. He reminded me of a High School student who has
                to write 150 words, finds he only wrote 100, so goes back and repeats
                the same sentences in a slightly different way... no kidding. It was
                very repetitive in this way.

                I otherwise have not boned up on Bowen, other than having noted that
                he seemed to be stand out at Champion Hill. So I can't tell if
                something was wrong with what the book had to say. I get the feeling
                that the author would be capable of glossing over Bowen's flaws. After
                all he poses Bowen as a Stonewall of the West; this is not to say
                'instead of Cleburne' but a special Stonewall in the category of
                'forgotten' I guess. The sort of glorifying that the book has makes
                you recall some old hero worshipping in the Southern style.
                Nonetheless he makes a pretty good case but perhaps historians would
                differ with him in important matters. As far as recommending it, you'd
                be happy with the book if you can look over the quality of the writing
                and the hero-worshipping sort of style. Obviously many could not
                overlook these things, so I'd say I'd generally not recommend it but
                was not sorry I read it myself

                Carl

                --- In civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com, "Tom Mix" <tmix@...> wrote:
                >
                > Carl,
                >
                > As you have progressed in the book, what is your general opinion of
                it now?
                > Still highly slanted toward Bowen and lacking in some accuracy? Kind of
                > sounds like it may have lived up to your original general
                impressions as you
                > began the book.
                >
                > Tom
                >


              • Tom Mix
                The Gamers still exist but were bought my Multi Man Publishing (MMP) and are now a sub group of it. MMP is owned by Red Sox great Curt Schilling who is an avid
                Message 7 of 23 , Sep 11 2:04 PM

                  The Gamers still exist but were bought my Multi Man Publishing (MMP) and are now a sub group of it. MMP is owned by Red Sox great Curt Schilling who is an avid gamer too.  (and I’m an avid Red Sox fan.)

                  You can find them at MultiManPublishing.com  or multimanpublishing.com which ever works.   Click on The Gamers, then Civil War Brigade series and you’ll find all of their available games. Champion Hill is still available for $28.  It is the best ACW series I have ever played. They also have a great Napoleonic series based  on the same system.

                  Good luck, if I can be any help, let me know,

                  Tom

                   

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From:
                  civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John LaPorta
                  Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 3:52 PM
                  To:
                  civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge

                   

                  Thank you Tom  for all the information that you give freely in your posts.I wanted to ask where can you find civil war games like the one you mentioned? I am currently involved in the American Conquest a Divided Nation game on the internet and would like others any help appreciated.

                  John ...the captain in Mississippi

                  --- On Tue, 9/9/08, Tom Mix <
                  tmix@insightbb. com> wrote:

                  From: Tom Mix <tmix@insightbb. com>
                  Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge
                  To: civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com
                  Date: Tuesday, September 9, 2008, 6:06 PM

                  Thanks so much, Carl, for the honest appraisal.  I think I’ll take your advice and pass on it. Bowen was an excellent General but not a Stonewall.  He did work better with others than Jackson and that speaks well of Bowen, who from readings was an excellent Division and Corps commander. It sounds like it may be better to just pick up information on him by reading books devoted to subjects where he was involved like Champion Hill which has had some fine books on it over the last several years.  

                  If anyone out there board games, The Gamers “Champion Hill” is an excellent game and Bowen shines with a well deserved high rating in it.  Thanks to him and failure to get orders through I lost that battle once.  But not the next time.

                  Tom

                   

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:civilwarwes t@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of
                  Carl Williams
                  Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 11:58 AM
                  To: civilwarwest@ yahoogroupscom
                  Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge

                   


                  Again that's "The Forgotten 'Stonewall of the West': Major General
                  John Stevens Bowen," Mercer University Press, 1997, by Phillip Thomas
                  Tucker.

                  Tom, the author managed to write an interesting story, even though the
                  writing was not good. He reminded me of a High School student who has
                  to write 150 words, finds he only wrote 100, so goes back and repeats
                  the same sentences in a slightly different way... no kidding. It was
                  very repetitive in this way.

                  I otherwise have not boned up on Bowen, other than having noted that
                  he seemed to be stand out at Champion Hill. So I can't tell if
                  something was wrong with what the book had to say. I get the feeling
                  that the author would be capable of glossing over Bowen's flaws. After
                  all he poses Bowen as a Stonewall of the West; this is not to say
                  'in
                  stead of Cleburne' but a special Stonewall in the category of
                  'forgotten' I guess. The sort of glorifying that the book has makes
                  you recall some old hero worshipping in the Southern style.
                  Nonetheless he makes a pretty good case but perhaps historians would
                  differ with him in important matters. As far as recommending it, you'd
                  be happy with the book if you can look over the quality of the writing
                  and the hero-worshipping sort of style. Obviously many could not
                  overlook these things, so I'd say I'd generally not recommend it but
                  was not sorry I read it myself

                  Carl

                  --- In civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com, "Tom Mix" <tmix@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Carl,
                  >
                  > As you have progressed in the book, what is your general opinion of
                  it now?
                  > Still highly slanted toward Bowen and lacking in some accuracy? Kind of
                  > sounds like it may have lived up to your original general
                  impressions as you
                  > began the book.
                  >
                  > Tom
                  >

                   

                • Tom Mix
                  John, I seem to be having some problem getting this though. You can reach me off line at tmix@insightbb.com Tom ... From: Tom Mix [mailto:tmix@insightbb.com]
                  Message 8 of 23 , Sep 11 2:19 PM

                    John,

                    I seem to be having some problem getting this though. You can reach me off line at tmix@...

                    Tom

                     

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Tom Mix [mailto:tmix@...]
                    Sent:
                    Thursday, September 11, 2008 4:15 PM
                    To: 'civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com'
                    Subject: FW: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at
                    Big Black Bridge

                     

                     

                     

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Tom Mix [mailto:tmix@...]
                    Sent:
                    Thursday, September 11, 2008 4:04 PM
                    To: 'civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com'
                    Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at
                    Big Black Bridge

                    John,

                    The Gamers still exist but were bought my Multi Man Publishing (MMP) and are now a sub group of it. MMP is owned by Red Sox great Curt Schilling who is an avid gamer too.  (and I’m an avid Red Sox fan.)

                    You can find them at MultiManPublishing.com  or multimanpublishing.com which ever works.   Click on The Gamers, then Civil War Brigade series and you’ll find all of their available games. Champion Hill is still available for $28.  It is the best ACW series I have ever played. They also have a great Napoleonic series based  on the same system.

                    Good luck, if I can be any help, let me know,

                    Tom

                     

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John LaPorta
                    Sent:
                    Thursday, September 11, 2008 3:52 PM
                    To: civilwarwest@yahoogroupscom
                    Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at
                    Big Black Bridge

                     

                    Thank you Tom  for all the information that you give freely in your posts.I wanted to ask where can you find civil war games like the one you mentioned? I am currently involved in the American Conquest a Divided Nation game on the internet and would like others any help appreciated.

                    John ...the captain in Mississippi

                    --- On Tue, 9/9/08, Tom Mix <tmix@insightbb. com> wrote:

                    From: Tom Mix <tmix@insightbb. com>
                    Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at
                    Big Black Bridge
                    To: civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com
                    Date: Tuesday, September 9, 2008, 6:06 PM

                    Thanks so much, Carl, for the honest appraisal.  I think I’ll take your advice and pass on it. Bowen was an excellent General but not a Stonewall.  He did work better with others than Jackson and that speaks well of Bowen, who from readings was an excellent Division and Corps commander. It sounds like it may be better to just pick up information on him by reading books devoted to subjects where he was involved like Champion Hill which has had some fine books on it over the last several years.  

                    If anyone out there board games, The Gamers “Champion Hill” is an excellent game and Bowen shines with a well deserved high rating in it.  Thanks to him and failure to get orders through I lost that battle once.  But not the next time.

                    Tom

                     

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:civilwarwes t@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Carl Williams
                    Sent:
                    Tuesday, September 09, 2008 11:58 AM
                    To: civilwarwest@ yahoogroupscom
                    Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at
                    Big Black Bridge

                     


                    Again that's "The Forgotten 'Stonewall of the West': Major General
                    John Stevens Bowen,"
                    Mercer University Press, 1997, by Phillip Thomas
                    Tucker.

                    Tom, the author managed to write an interesting story, even though the
                    writing was not good. He reminded me of a High School student who has
                    to write 150 words, finds he only wrote 100, so goes back and repeats
                    the same sentences in a slightly different way... no kidding. It was
                    very repetitive in this way.

                    I otherwise have not boned up on Bowen, other than having noted that
                    he seemed to be stand out at Champion Hill. So I can't tell if
                    something was wrong with what the book had to say. I get the feeling
                    that the author would be capable of glossing over Bowen's flaws. After
                    all he poses Bowen as a Stonewall of the West; this is not to say
                    'instead of Cleburne' but a special Stonewall in the category of
                    'forgotten' I guess. The sort of glorifying that the book has makes
                    you recall some old hero worshipping in the Southern style.
                    Nonetheless he makes a pretty good case but perhaps historians would
                    differ with him in important matters. As far as recommending it, you'd
                    be happy with the book if you can look over the quality of the writing
                    and the hero-worshipping sort of style. Obviously many could not
                    overlook these things, so I'd say I'd generally not recommend it but
                    was not sorry I read it myself

                    Carl

                    --- In civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com, "Tom Mix" <tmix@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Carl,
                    >
                    > As you have progressed in the book, what is your general opinion of
                    it now?
                    > Still highly slanted toward Bowen and lacking in some accuracy? Kind of
                    > sounds like it may have lived up to your original general
                    impressions as you
                    > began the book.
                    >
                    > Tom
                    >

                     

                  • Tom Mix
                    Absolutely, Bowen virtually marched right past McClernand s front to reinforce Champion Hill with McClernand doing nothing at all about it. He may have taken
                    Message 9 of 23 , Sep 11 4:10 PM

                      Absolutely, Bowen virtually marched right past McClernand’s front to reinforce Champion Hill with McClernand doing nothing at all about it.  He may have taken a photo or two, sold a tourist map to the Rebs or asked for their vote for not bothering them in their travels.

                      Tom

                       

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carl Williams
                      Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 3:52 AM
                      To: civilwarwest@yahoogroupscom
                      Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge

                       

                      I'm thinking McClernand is sorely missed at about the same time Bowen
                      counter-attacks. That sort of timing can make an impression.

                      --- In civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com, "Tony Gunter" <tony_gunter@ ...>
                      wrote:
                      [...]

                      >
                      > So apparently, Carr was operating independently of McClernand for
                      > this period by order of Grant, who possibly was miffed over
                      > McClernand's failure to show up at Champion Hill.
                      >

                    • keeno2@aol.com
                      Being a Red Sox fan, anything you say can and will be used against you. You have the right to remain silent. You have the right to counsel and, if you can t
                      Message 10 of 23 , Sep 11 7:03 PM
                        Being a Red Sox fan, anything you say can and will be used against you. You have the right to remain silent. You have the right to counsel and, if you can't afford it, counsel will be provided to you at no cost.
                         
                        Aren't the Red Sox in the Eastern Theater? Foul!
                         
                        ken



                      • DORR64OVI@aol.com
                        In a message dated 9/11/2008 10:04:15 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, keeno2@aol.com writes: Aren t the Red Sox in the Eastern Theater? Foul! The Red Sox comprise
                        Message 11 of 23 , Sep 11 7:15 PM
                          In a message dated 9/11/2008 10:04:15 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, keeno2@... writes:
                          Aren't the Red Sox in the Eastern Theater? Foul!
                          The Red Sox comprise an entire Nation...where have you been?
                           
                          Kent Dorr
                          Tribe fan



                        • Tom Mix
                          Ken, Well, I guess I ll have to plead guilty to all charges. Is my sentence to set in side the Green Monster with the rats? Tom ... From:
                          Message 12 of 23 , Sep 11 8:17 PM

                            Ken,

                            Well, I guess I’ll have to plead guilty to all charges.  Is my sentence to set in side the Green Monster with the rats?

                            Tom

                             

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of keeno2@...
                            Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 9:04 PM
                            To: civilwarwest@yahoogroupscom
                            Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge

                             

                            Being a Red Sox fan, anything you say can and will be used against you. You have the right to remain silent. You have the right to counsel and, if you can't afford it, counsel will be provided to you at no cost.

                             

                            Aren't the Red Sox in the Eastern Theater? Foul!

                             

                            ken



                          • Tom Mix
                            Great point!!! I have my defense council. And I am a charter member of Red Sox Nation too. Thanks, Kent! Tom The Tribe is finally playing better. Cy Lee has
                            Message 13 of 23 , Sep 11 8:20 PM

                              Great point!!! I have my defense council. And I am a charter member of Red Sox Nation too.

                              Thanks, Kent!

                              Tom

                               

                              The Tribe is finally playing better. “Cy” Lee has saved their season from being a total loss.

                               

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of DORR64OVI@...
                              Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 9:15 PM
                              To: civilwarwest@yahoogroupscom
                              Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge

                               

                              In a message dated 9/11/2008 10:04:15 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, keeno2@... writes:

                              Aren't the Red Sox in the Eastern Theater? Foul!

                              The Red Sox comprise an entire Nation...where have you been?

                               

                              Kent Dorr

                              Tribe fan



                            • John LaPorta
                              Did you say White Sox or Red Sox.......you are a White Sox fan like me right? anyway Chicago is further west . John (the captain in Mississippi) ... From:
                              Message 14 of 23 , Sep 13 9:42 PM
                                Did you say White Sox or Red Sox.......you are a White Sox fan like me right?
                                anyway Chicago is further west .
                                John (the captain in Mississippi)

                                --- On Thu, 9/11/08, keeno2@... <keeno2@...> wrote:
                                From: keeno2@... <keeno2@...>
                                Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge
                                To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                Date: Thursday, September 11, 2008, 9:03 PM

                                Being a Red Sox fan, anything you say can and will be used against you. You have the right to remain silent. You have the right to counsel and, if you can't afford it, counsel will be provided to you at no cost.
                                 
                                Aren't the Red Sox in the Eastern Theater? Foul!
                                 
                                ken




                              • John LaPorta
                                A nation of what??? ... From: DORR64OVI@aol.com Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                Message 15 of 23 , Sep 13 9:43 PM
                                  A nation of what???

                                  --- On Thu, 9/11/08, DORR64OVI@... <DORR64OVI@...> wrote:
                                  From: DORR64OVI@... <DORR64OVI@...>
                                  Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge
                                  To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                  Date: Thursday, September 11, 2008, 9:15 PM

                                  In a message dated 9/11/2008 10:04:15 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, keeno2@... writes:
                                  Aren't the Red Sox in the Eastern Theater? Foul!
                                  The Red Sox comprise an entire Nation...where have you been?
                                   
                                  Kent Dorr
                                  Tribe fan




                                • John LaPorta
                                  LOL you guys are funny ... From: Tom Mix Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com Date:
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Sep 13 9:44 PM
                                    LOL you guys are funny

                                    --- On Thu, 9/11/08, Tom Mix <tmix@...> wrote:
                                    From: Tom Mix <tmix@...>
                                    Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge
                                    To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                    Date: Thursday, September 11, 2008, 10:17 PM

                                    Ken,

                                    Well, I guess I’ll have to plead guilty to all charges.  Is my sentence to set in side the Green Monster with the rats?

                                    Tom

                                     

                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:civilwarwes t@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of keeno2@...
                                    Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 9:04 PM
                                    To: civilwarwest@ yahoogroupscom
                                    Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge

                                     

                                    Being a Red Sox fan, anything you say can and will be used against you. You have the right to remain silent. You have the right to counsel and, if you can't afford it, counsel will be provided to you at no cost.

                                     

                                    Aren't the Red Sox in the Eastern Theater? Foul!

                                     

                                    ken




                                  • John LaPorta
                                     GO BEARS!!!!!! ... From: Tom Mix Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com Date:
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Sep 13 9:45 PM
                                       GO BEARS!!!!!!

                                      --- On Thu, 9/11/08, Tom Mix <tmix@...> wrote:
                                      From: Tom Mix <tmix@...>
                                      Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge
                                      To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                      Date: Thursday, September 11, 2008, 10:20 PM

                                      Great point!!! I have my defense council. And I am a charter member of Red Sox Nation too.

                                      Thanks, Kent!

                                      Tom

                                       

                                      The Tribe is finally playing better. “Cy” Lee has saved their season from being a total loss..

                                       

                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:civilwarwes t@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of DORR64OVI@aol. com
                                      Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 9:15 PM
                                      To: civilwarwest@ yahoogroupscom
                                      Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge

                                       

                                      In a message dated 9/11/2008 10:04:15 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, keeno2@... writes:

                                      Aren't the Red Sox in the Eastern Theater? Foul!

                                      The Red Sox comprise an entire Nation...where have you been?

                                       

                                      Kent Dorr

                                      Tribe fan




                                    • Tom Mix
                                      RED Sox ... From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John LaPorta Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2008 11:42 PM To:
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Sep 14 11:28 AM

                                        RED Sox

                                         

                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John LaPorta
                                        Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2008 11:42 PM
                                        To: civilwarwest@yahoogroupscom
                                        Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge

                                         

                                        Did you say White Sox or Red Sox.......you are a White Sox fan like me right?

                                        anyway Chicago is further west ..

                                        John (the captain in Mississippi)

                                        --- On Thu, 9/11/08, keeno2@... <keeno2@...> wrote:

                                        From: keeno2@... <keeno2@...>
                                        Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge
                                        To: civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com
                                        Date: Thursday, September 11, 2008, 9:03 PM

                                        Being a Red Sox fan, anything you say can and will be used against you. You have the right to remain silent. You have the right to counsel and, if you can't afford it, counsel will be provided to you at no cost.

                                         

                                        Aren't the Red Sox in the Eastern Theater? Foul!

                                         

                                        ken



                                         

                                      • Tom Mix
                                        Loyal, devoted, fanatical and perhaps a bit pathetic Boston Red Sox fans!! ... From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Sep 14 11:29 AM

                                          Loyal, devoted, fanatical and perhaps a bit pathetic Boston Red Sox fans!!

                                           

                                          -----Original Message-----
                                          From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John LaPorta
                                          Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2008 11:43 PM
                                          To: civilwarwest@yahoogroupscom
                                          Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge

                                           

                                          A nation of what???

                                          --- On Thu, 9/11/08, DORR64OVI@aol. com <DORR64OVI@aol. com> wrote:

                                          From: DORR64OVI@aol. com <DORR64OVI@aol. com>
                                          Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge
                                          To: civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com
                                          Date: Thursday, September 11, 2008, 9:15 PM

                                          In a message dated 9/11/2008 10:04:15 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, keeno2@... writes:

                                          Aren't the Red Sox in the Eastern Theater? Foul!

                                          The Red Sox comprise an entire Nation...where have you been?

                                           

                                          Kent Dorr

                                          Tribe fan



                                           

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