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RE: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge

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  • Tom Mix
    Carl, As you have progressed in the book, what is your general opinion of it now? Still highly slanted toward Bowen and lacking in some accuracy? Kind of
    Message 1 of 23 , Sep 9, 2008
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      Carl,

      As you have progressed in the book, what is your general opinion of it now? Still highly slanted toward Bowen and lacking in some accuracy?  Kind of sounds like it may have lived up to your original general impressions as you began the book.

      Tom

       

      -----Original Message-----
      From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carl Williams
      Sent: Monday, September 08, 2008 1:14 PM
      To: civilwarwest@yahoogroupscom
      Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge

       

      if the author is to be believed, Bowen's strong point was designing
      defensive positions, as at Grand Gulf, so I'd guess someone else laid
      out the defensive line

      >
      > I can't remember, but if Bowen has one point of blame here, he may
      > have actually designed the layout of the fortifications (although he
      > actually had the good sense to point out to Pemberton that it was a
      > flawed position that could easily be flanked via Bridgeport or points
      > north).
      >

    • Tony Gunter
      ... laid ... It s going to take some digging to figure out who designed the BBRB defenses, going backwards through the OR from May. No easy text to search
      Message 2 of 23 , Sep 9, 2008
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        --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Williams" <carlw4514@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > if the author is to be believed, Bowen's strong point was designing
        > defensive positions, as at Grand Gulf, so I'd guess someone else
        laid
        > out the defensive line

        It's going to take some digging to figure out who designed the BBRB
        defenses, going backwards through the OR from May. No easy text to
        search for, because it's just referred to as "the bridge." I know
        Bowen was positioned at the bridge for months before moving to Port
        Gibson, and the fortifications were started during that time.

        The physical flaw in the fortifications was that the defenses could
        be approached by a large body of men walking behind the natural levee
        of the river, until they got to a slough that provided a staging
        point just 100 yards from the defensive line. Making this a critical
        flaw was the fact that Pemberton had positioned a brigade composed
        largely of conscripts at this point, with no reserve to back them up.

        Pemberton could have prevented this by having sharpshooters posted on
        the north bank of the BBR, or by having his strongest unit posted at
        this point, or having a reserve that could fill into the gap if this
        point was successfully assaulted.

        As far as how the federal assault went down, a cavalryman reported
        the flaw to Lawler, who asked permission to attempt the works. Carr
        approved of Lawler's plan to shift his brigade to the river, which
        would leave a thousand-yard gap between his two brigades. Carr,
        without apparently going through McClernand, informed Osterhaus what
        was going on, and asked Osterhaus for a regiment of skirmishers to
        connect the two brigades with a long skirmish line.

        So not only was Carr's entire division engaged in the assault, but
        Osterhaus' men were aware of what was going on, and were ready to
        apply pressure if the Missourians in their front began to shift.

        We can only speculate what the beef was between Carr and McClernand,
        but I'm guessing by the promotion order suggested by McClernand that
        Carr felt his talents were being wasted and unrecognized.
      • Carl Williams
        Again that s The Forgotten Stonewall of the West : Major General John Stevens Bowen, Mercer University Press, 1997, by Phillip Thomas Tucker. Tom, the
        Message 3 of 23 , Sep 9, 2008
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          Again that's "The Forgotten 'Stonewall of the West': Major General
          John Stevens Bowen," Mercer University Press, 1997, by Phillip Thomas
          Tucker.

          Tom, the author managed to write an interesting story, even though the
          writing was not good. He reminded me of a High School student who has
          to write 150 words, finds he only wrote 100, so goes back and repeats
          the same sentences in a slightly different way... no kidding. It was
          very repetitive in this way.

          I otherwise have not boned up on Bowen, other than having noted that
          he seemed to be stand out at Champion Hill. So I can't tell if
          something was wrong with what the book had to say. I get the feeling
          that the author would be capable of glossing over Bowen's flaws. After
          all he poses Bowen as a Stonewall of the West; this is not to say
          'instead of Cleburne' but a special Stonewall in the category of
          'forgotten' I guess. The sort of glorifying that the book has makes
          you recall some old hero worshipping in the Southern style.
          Nonetheless he makes a pretty good case but perhaps historians would
          differ with him in important matters. As far as recommending it, you'd
          be happy with the book if you can look over the quality of the writing
          and the hero-worshipping sort of style. Obviously many could not
          overlook these things, so I'd say I'd generally not recommend it but
          was not sorry I read it myself

          Carl

          --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mix" <tmix@...> wrote:
          >
          > Carl,
          >
          > As you have progressed in the book, what is your general opinion of
          it now?
          > Still highly slanted toward Bowen and lacking in some accuracy? Kind of
          > sounds like it may have lived up to your original general
          impressions as you
          > began the book.
          >
          > Tom
          >
        • Tom Mix
          Thanks so much, Carl, for the honest appraisal. I think I ll take your advice and pass on it. Bowen was an excellent General but not a Stonewall. He did work
          Message 4 of 23 , Sep 9, 2008
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            Thanks so much, Carl, for the honest appraisal.  I think I’ll take your advice and pass on it. Bowen was an excellent General but not a Stonewall.  He did work better with others than Jackson and that speaks well of Bowen, who from readings was an excellent Division and Corps commander. It sounds like it may be better to just pick up information on him by reading books devoted to subjects where he was involved like Champion Hill which has had some fine books on it over the last several years.  

            If anyone out there board games, The Gamers “Champion Hill” is an excellent game and Bowen shines with a well deserved high rating in it.  Thanks to him and failure to get orders through I lost that battle once.  But not the next time.

            Tom

             

            -----Original Message-----
            From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carl Williams
            Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 11:58 AM
            To: civilwarwest@yahoogroupscom
            Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge

             


            Again that's "The Forgotten 'Stonewall of the West': Major General
            John Stevens Bowen," Mercer University Press, 1997, by Phillip Thomas
            Tucker.

            Tom, the author managed to write an interesting story, even though the
            writing was not good. He reminded me of a High School student who has
            to write 150 words, finds he only wrote 100, so goes back and repeats
            the same sentences in a slightly different way... no kidding. It was
            very repetitive in this way.

            I otherwise have not boned up on Bowen, other than having noted that
            he seemed to be stand out at Champion Hill. So I can't tell if
            something was wrong with what the book had to say. I get the feeling
            that the author would be capable of glossing over Bowen's flaws. After
            all he poses Bowen as a Stonewall of the West; this is not to say
            'instead of Cleburne' but a special Stonewall in the category of
            'forgotten' I guess. The sort of glorifying that the book has makes
            you recall some old hero worshipping in the Southern style.
            Nonetheless he makes a pretty good case but perhaps historians would
            differ with him in important matters. As far as recommending it, you'd
            be happy with the book if you can look over the quality of the writing
            and the hero-worshipping sort of style. Obviously many could not
            overlook these things, so I'd say I'd generally not recommend it but
            was not sorry I read it myself

            Carl

            --- In civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com, "Tom Mix" <tmix@...> wrote:

            >
            > Carl,
            >
            > As you have progressed in the book, what is your general opinion of
            it now?
            > Still highly slanted toward Bowen and lacking in some accuracy? Kind of
            > sounds like it may have lived up to your original general
            impressions as you
            > began the book.
            >
            > Tom
            >

          • Tony Gunter
            ... Carr ... what ... McClernand, ... that ... Whoah! Never caught this before, but apparently the beef was between McClernand and Grant himself. Grant
            Message 5 of 23 , Sep 10, 2008
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              --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Tony Gunter" <tony_gunter@...>
              wrote:
              >
              >
              > As far as how the federal assault went down, a cavalryman reported
              > the flaw to Lawler, who asked permission to attempt the works.
              Carr
              > approved of Lawler's plan to shift his brigade to the river, which
              > would leave a thousand-yard gap between his two brigades. Carr,
              > without apparently going through McClernand, informed Osterhaus
              what
              > was going on, and asked Osterhaus for a regiment of skirmishers to
              > connect the two brigades with a long skirmish line.
              >
              > So not only was Carr's entire division engaged in the assault, but
              > Osterhaus' men were aware of what was going on, and were ready to
              > apply pressure if the Missourians in their front began to shift.
              >
              > We can only speculate what the beef was between Carr and
              McClernand,
              > but I'm guessing by the promotion order suggested by McClernand
              that
              > Carr felt his talents were being wasted and unrecognized.

              Whoah! Never caught this before, but apparently the beef was between
              McClernand and Grant himself. Grant writes in his memoirs that he
              personally met Carr on Champion Hill, and ordered him to pursue
              Pemberton across the Big Black if possible, with Osterhaus to follow
              Carr.

              So apparently, Carr was operating independently of McClernand for
              this period by order of Grant, who possibly was miffed over
              McClernand's failure to show up at Champion Hill.
            • Carl Williams
              I m thinking McClernand is sorely missed at about the same time Bowen counter-attacks. That sort of timing can make an impression. ... wrote: [...]
              Message 6 of 23 , Sep 11, 2008
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                I'm thinking McClernand is sorely missed at about the same time Bowen
                counter-attacks. That sort of timing can make an impression.

                --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Tony Gunter" <tony_gunter@...>
                wrote:
                [...]
                >
                > So apparently, Carr was operating independently of McClernand for
                > this period by order of Grant, who possibly was miffed over
                > McClernand's failure to show up at Champion Hill.
                >
              • John LaPorta
                Thank you Tom  for all the information that you give freely in your posts..I wanted to ask where can you find civil war games like the one you mentioned? I am
                Message 7 of 23 , Sep 11, 2008
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                  Thank you Tom  for all the information that you give freely in your posts.I wanted to ask where can you find civil war games like the one you mentioned? I am currently involved in the American Conquest a Divided Nation game on the internet and would like others any help appreciated.
                  John ...the captain in Mississippi

                  --- On Tue, 9/9/08, Tom Mix <tmix@...> wrote:
                  From: Tom Mix <tmix@...>
                  Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge
                  To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Tuesday, September 9, 2008, 6:06 PM

                  Thanks so much, Carl, for the honest appraisal.  I think I’ll take your advice and pass on it. Bowen was an excellent General but not a Stonewall.  He did work better with others than Jackson and that speaks well of Bowen, who from readings was an excellent Division and Corps commander. It sounds like it may be better to just pick up information on him by reading books devoted to subjects where he was involved like Champion Hill which has had some fine books on it over the last several years.  

                  If anyone out there board games, The Gamers “Champion Hill” is an excellent game and Bowen shines with a well deserved high rating in it.  Thanks to him and failure to get orders through I lost that battle once.  But not the next time.

                  Tom

                   

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:civilwarwes t@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Carl Williams
                  Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 11:58 AM
                  To: civilwarwest@ yahoogroupscom
                  Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge

                   


                  Again that's "The Forgotten 'Stonewall of the West': Major General
                  John Stevens Bowen," Mercer University Press, 1997, by Phillip Thomas
                  Tucker.

                  Tom, the author managed to write an interesting story, even though the
                  writing was not good. He reminded me of a High School student who has
                  to write 150 words, finds he only wrote 100, so goes back and repeats
                  the same sentences in a slightly different way... no kidding. It was
                  very repetitive in this way.

                  I otherwise have not boned up on Bowen, other than having noted that
                  he seemed to be stand out at Champion Hill. So I can't tell if
                  something was wrong with what the book had to say. I get the feeling
                  that the author would be capable of glossing over Bowen's flaws. After
                  all he poses Bowen as a Stonewall of the West; this is not to say
                  'instead of Cleburne' but a special Stonewall in the category of
                  'forgotten' I guess. The sort of glorifying that the book has makes
                  you recall some old hero worshipping in the Southern style.
                  Nonetheless he makes a pretty good case but perhaps historians would
                  differ with him in important matters. As far as recommending it, you'd
                  be happy with the book if you can look over the quality of the writing
                  and the hero-worshipping sort of style. Obviously many could not
                  overlook these things, so I'd say I'd generally not recommend it but
                  was not sorry I read it myself

                  Carl

                  --- In civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com, "Tom Mix" <tmix@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Carl,
                  >
                  > As you have progressed in the book, what is your general opinion of
                  it now?
                  > Still highly slanted toward Bowen and lacking in some accuracy? Kind of
                  > sounds like it may have lived up to your original general
                  impressions as you
                  > began the book.
                  >
                  > Tom
                  >


                • Tom Mix
                  The Gamers still exist but were bought my Multi Man Publishing (MMP) and are now a sub group of it. MMP is owned by Red Sox great Curt Schilling who is an avid
                  Message 8 of 23 , Sep 11, 2008
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                    The Gamers still exist but were bought my Multi Man Publishing (MMP) and are now a sub group of it. MMP is owned by Red Sox great Curt Schilling who is an avid gamer too.  (and I’m an avid Red Sox fan.)

                    You can find them at MultiManPublishing.com  or multimanpublishing.com which ever works.   Click on The Gamers, then Civil War Brigade series and you’ll find all of their available games. Champion Hill is still available for $28.  It is the best ACW series I have ever played. They also have a great Napoleonic series based  on the same system.

                    Good luck, if I can be any help, let me know,

                    Tom

                     

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From:
                    civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John LaPorta
                    Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 3:52 PM
                    To:
                    civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge

                     

                    Thank you Tom  for all the information that you give freely in your posts.I wanted to ask where can you find civil war games like the one you mentioned? I am currently involved in the American Conquest a Divided Nation game on the internet and would like others any help appreciated.

                    John ...the captain in Mississippi

                    --- On Tue, 9/9/08, Tom Mix <
                    tmix@insightbb. com> wrote:

                    From: Tom Mix <tmix@insightbb. com>
                    Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge
                    To: civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com
                    Date: Tuesday, September 9, 2008, 6:06 PM

                    Thanks so much, Carl, for the honest appraisal.  I think I’ll take your advice and pass on it. Bowen was an excellent General but not a Stonewall.  He did work better with others than Jackson and that speaks well of Bowen, who from readings was an excellent Division and Corps commander. It sounds like it may be better to just pick up information on him by reading books devoted to subjects where he was involved like Champion Hill which has had some fine books on it over the last several years.  

                    If anyone out there board games, The Gamers “Champion Hill” is an excellent game and Bowen shines with a well deserved high rating in it.  Thanks to him and failure to get orders through I lost that battle once.  But not the next time.

                    Tom

                     

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:civilwarwes t@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of
                    Carl Williams
                    Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 11:58 AM
                    To: civilwarwest@ yahoogroupscom
                    Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge

                     


                    Again that's "The Forgotten 'Stonewall of the West': Major General
                    John Stevens Bowen," Mercer University Press, 1997, by Phillip Thomas
                    Tucker.

                    Tom, the author managed to write an interesting story, even though the
                    writing was not good. He reminded me of a High School student who has
                    to write 150 words, finds he only wrote 100, so goes back and repeats
                    the same sentences in a slightly different way... no kidding. It was
                    very repetitive in this way.

                    I otherwise have not boned up on Bowen, other than having noted that
                    he seemed to be stand out at Champion Hill. So I can't tell if
                    something was wrong with what the book had to say. I get the feeling
                    that the author would be capable of glossing over Bowen's flaws. After
                    all he poses Bowen as a Stonewall of the West; this is not to say
                    'in
                    stead of Cleburne' but a special Stonewall in the category of
                    'forgotten' I guess. The sort of glorifying that the book has makes
                    you recall some old hero worshipping in the Southern style.
                    Nonetheless he makes a pretty good case but perhaps historians would
                    differ with him in important matters. As far as recommending it, you'd
                    be happy with the book if you can look over the quality of the writing
                    and the hero-worshipping sort of style. Obviously many could not
                    overlook these things, so I'd say I'd generally not recommend it but
                    was not sorry I read it myself

                    Carl

                    --- In civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com, "Tom Mix" <tmix@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Carl,
                    >
                    > As you have progressed in the book, what is your general opinion of
                    it now?
                    > Still highly slanted toward Bowen and lacking in some accuracy? Kind of
                    > sounds like it may have lived up to your original general
                    impressions as you
                    > began the book.
                    >
                    > Tom
                    >

                     

                  • Tom Mix
                    John, I seem to be having some problem getting this though. You can reach me off line at tmix@insightbb.com Tom ... From: Tom Mix [mailto:tmix@insightbb.com]
                    Message 9 of 23 , Sep 11, 2008
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                      John,

                      I seem to be having some problem getting this though. You can reach me off line at tmix@...

                      Tom

                       

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Tom Mix [mailto:tmix@...]
                      Sent:
                      Thursday, September 11, 2008 4:15 PM
                      To: 'civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com'
                      Subject: FW: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at
                      Big Black Bridge

                       

                       

                       

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Tom Mix [mailto:tmix@...]
                      Sent:
                      Thursday, September 11, 2008 4:04 PM
                      To: 'civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com'
                      Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at
                      Big Black Bridge

                      John,

                      The Gamers still exist but were bought my Multi Man Publishing (MMP) and are now a sub group of it. MMP is owned by Red Sox great Curt Schilling who is an avid gamer too.  (and I’m an avid Red Sox fan.)

                      You can find them at MultiManPublishing.com  or multimanpublishing.com which ever works.   Click on The Gamers, then Civil War Brigade series and you’ll find all of their available games. Champion Hill is still available for $28.  It is the best ACW series I have ever played. They also have a great Napoleonic series based  on the same system.

                      Good luck, if I can be any help, let me know,

                      Tom

                       

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John LaPorta
                      Sent:
                      Thursday, September 11, 2008 3:52 PM
                      To: civilwarwest@yahoogroupscom
                      Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at
                      Big Black Bridge

                       

                      Thank you Tom  for all the information that you give freely in your posts.I wanted to ask where can you find civil war games like the one you mentioned? I am currently involved in the American Conquest a Divided Nation game on the internet and would like others any help appreciated.

                      John ...the captain in Mississippi

                      --- On Tue, 9/9/08, Tom Mix <tmix@insightbb. com> wrote:

                      From: Tom Mix <tmix@insightbb. com>
                      Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at
                      Big Black Bridge
                      To: civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com
                      Date: Tuesday, September 9, 2008, 6:06 PM

                      Thanks so much, Carl, for the honest appraisal.  I think I’ll take your advice and pass on it. Bowen was an excellent General but not a Stonewall.  He did work better with others than Jackson and that speaks well of Bowen, who from readings was an excellent Division and Corps commander. It sounds like it may be better to just pick up information on him by reading books devoted to subjects where he was involved like Champion Hill which has had some fine books on it over the last several years.  

                      If anyone out there board games, The Gamers “Champion Hill” is an excellent game and Bowen shines with a well deserved high rating in it.  Thanks to him and failure to get orders through I lost that battle once.  But not the next time.

                      Tom

                       

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:civilwarwes t@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Carl Williams
                      Sent:
                      Tuesday, September 09, 2008 11:58 AM
                      To: civilwarwest@ yahoogroupscom
                      Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at
                      Big Black Bridge

                       


                      Again that's "The Forgotten 'Stonewall of the West': Major General
                      John Stevens Bowen,"
                      Mercer University Press, 1997, by Phillip Thomas
                      Tucker.

                      Tom, the author managed to write an interesting story, even though the
                      writing was not good. He reminded me of a High School student who has
                      to write 150 words, finds he only wrote 100, so goes back and repeats
                      the same sentences in a slightly different way... no kidding. It was
                      very repetitive in this way.

                      I otherwise have not boned up on Bowen, other than having noted that
                      he seemed to be stand out at Champion Hill. So I can't tell if
                      something was wrong with what the book had to say. I get the feeling
                      that the author would be capable of glossing over Bowen's flaws. After
                      all he poses Bowen as a Stonewall of the West; this is not to say
                      'instead of Cleburne' but a special Stonewall in the category of
                      'forgotten' I guess. The sort of glorifying that the book has makes
                      you recall some old hero worshipping in the Southern style.
                      Nonetheless he makes a pretty good case but perhaps historians would
                      differ with him in important matters. As far as recommending it, you'd
                      be happy with the book if you can look over the quality of the writing
                      and the hero-worshipping sort of style. Obviously many could not
                      overlook these things, so I'd say I'd generally not recommend it but
                      was not sorry I read it myself

                      Carl

                      --- In civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com, "Tom Mix" <tmix@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Carl,
                      >
                      > As you have progressed in the book, what is your general opinion of
                      it now?
                      > Still highly slanted toward Bowen and lacking in some accuracy? Kind of
                      > sounds like it may have lived up to your original general
                      impressions as you
                      > began the book.
                      >
                      > Tom
                      >

                       

                    • Tom Mix
                      Absolutely, Bowen virtually marched right past McClernand s front to reinforce Champion Hill with McClernand doing nothing at all about it. He may have taken
                      Message 10 of 23 , Sep 11, 2008
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                        Absolutely, Bowen virtually marched right past McClernand’s front to reinforce Champion Hill with McClernand doing nothing at all about it.  He may have taken a photo or two, sold a tourist map to the Rebs or asked for their vote for not bothering them in their travels.

                        Tom

                         

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carl Williams
                        Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 3:52 AM
                        To: civilwarwest@yahoogroupscom
                        Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge

                         

                        I'm thinking McClernand is sorely missed at about the same time Bowen
                        counter-attacks. That sort of timing can make an impression.

                        --- In civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com, "Tony Gunter" <tony_gunter@ ...>
                        wrote:
                        [...]

                        >
                        > So apparently, Carr was operating independently of McClernand for
                        > this period by order of Grant, who possibly was miffed over
                        > McClernand's failure to show up at Champion Hill.
                        >

                      • keeno2@aol.com
                        Being a Red Sox fan, anything you say can and will be used against you. You have the right to remain silent. You have the right to counsel and, if you can t
                        Message 11 of 23 , Sep 11, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Being a Red Sox fan, anything you say can and will be used against you. You have the right to remain silent. You have the right to counsel and, if you can't afford it, counsel will be provided to you at no cost.
                           
                          Aren't the Red Sox in the Eastern Theater? Foul!
                           
                          ken



                        • DORR64OVI@aol.com
                          In a message dated 9/11/2008 10:04:15 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, keeno2@aol.com writes: Aren t the Red Sox in the Eastern Theater? Foul! The Red Sox comprise
                          Message 12 of 23 , Sep 11, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            In a message dated 9/11/2008 10:04:15 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, keeno2@... writes:
                            Aren't the Red Sox in the Eastern Theater? Foul!
                            The Red Sox comprise an entire Nation...where have you been?
                             
                            Kent Dorr
                            Tribe fan



                          • Tom Mix
                            Ken, Well, I guess I ll have to plead guilty to all charges. Is my sentence to set in side the Green Monster with the rats? Tom ... From:
                            Message 13 of 23 , Sep 11, 2008
                            • 0 Attachment

                              Ken,

                              Well, I guess I’ll have to plead guilty to all charges.  Is my sentence to set in side the Green Monster with the rats?

                              Tom

                               

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of keeno2@...
                              Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 9:04 PM
                              To: civilwarwest@yahoogroupscom
                              Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge

                               

                              Being a Red Sox fan, anything you say can and will be used against you. You have the right to remain silent. You have the right to counsel and, if you can't afford it, counsel will be provided to you at no cost.

                               

                              Aren't the Red Sox in the Eastern Theater? Foul!

                               

                              ken



                            • Tom Mix
                              Great point!!! I have my defense council. And I am a charter member of Red Sox Nation too. Thanks, Kent! Tom The Tribe is finally playing better. Cy Lee has
                              Message 14 of 23 , Sep 11, 2008
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                                Great point!!! I have my defense council. And I am a charter member of Red Sox Nation too.

                                Thanks, Kent!

                                Tom

                                 

                                The Tribe is finally playing better. “Cy” Lee has saved their season from being a total loss.

                                 

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of DORR64OVI@...
                                Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 9:15 PM
                                To: civilwarwest@yahoogroupscom
                                Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge

                                 

                                In a message dated 9/11/2008 10:04:15 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, keeno2@... writes:

                                Aren't the Red Sox in the Eastern Theater? Foul!

                                The Red Sox comprise an entire Nation...where have you been?

                                 

                                Kent Dorr

                                Tribe fan



                              • John LaPorta
                                Did you say White Sox or Red Sox.......you are a White Sox fan like me right? anyway Chicago is further west . John (the captain in Mississippi) ... From:
                                Message 15 of 23 , Sep 13, 2008
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Did you say White Sox or Red Sox.......you are a White Sox fan like me right?
                                  anyway Chicago is further west .
                                  John (the captain in Mississippi)

                                  --- On Thu, 9/11/08, keeno2@... <keeno2@...> wrote:
                                  From: keeno2@... <keeno2@...>
                                  Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge
                                  To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                  Date: Thursday, September 11, 2008, 9:03 PM

                                  Being a Red Sox fan, anything you say can and will be used against you. You have the right to remain silent. You have the right to counsel and, if you can't afford it, counsel will be provided to you at no cost.
                                   
                                  Aren't the Red Sox in the Eastern Theater? Foul!
                                   
                                  ken




                                • John LaPorta
                                  A nation of what??? ... From: DORR64OVI@aol.com Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Sep 13, 2008
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    A nation of what???

                                    --- On Thu, 9/11/08, DORR64OVI@... <DORR64OVI@...> wrote:
                                    From: DORR64OVI@... <DORR64OVI@...>
                                    Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge
                                    To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                    Date: Thursday, September 11, 2008, 9:15 PM

                                    In a message dated 9/11/2008 10:04:15 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, keeno2@... writes:
                                    Aren't the Red Sox in the Eastern Theater? Foul!
                                    The Red Sox comprise an entire Nation...where have you been?
                                     
                                    Kent Dorr
                                    Tribe fan




                                  • John LaPorta
                                    LOL you guys are funny ... From: Tom Mix Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com Date:
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Sep 13, 2008
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      LOL you guys are funny

                                      --- On Thu, 9/11/08, Tom Mix <tmix@...> wrote:
                                      From: Tom Mix <tmix@...>
                                      Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge
                                      To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                      Date: Thursday, September 11, 2008, 10:17 PM

                                      Ken,

                                      Well, I guess I’ll have to plead guilty to all charges.  Is my sentence to set in side the Green Monster with the rats?

                                      Tom

                                       

                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:civilwarwes t@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of keeno2@...
                                      Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 9:04 PM
                                      To: civilwarwest@ yahoogroupscom
                                      Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge

                                       

                                      Being a Red Sox fan, anything you say can and will be used against you. You have the right to remain silent. You have the right to counsel and, if you can't afford it, counsel will be provided to you at no cost.

                                       

                                      Aren't the Red Sox in the Eastern Theater? Foul!

                                       

                                      ken




                                    • John LaPorta
                                       GO BEARS!!!!!! ... From: Tom Mix Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com Date:
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Sep 13, 2008
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                         GO BEARS!!!!!!

                                        --- On Thu, 9/11/08, Tom Mix <tmix@...> wrote:
                                        From: Tom Mix <tmix@...>
                                        Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge
                                        To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                        Date: Thursday, September 11, 2008, 10:20 PM

                                        Great point!!! I have my defense council. And I am a charter member of Red Sox Nation too.

                                        Thanks, Kent!

                                        Tom

                                         

                                        The Tribe is finally playing better. “Cy” Lee has saved their season from being a total loss..

                                         

                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:civilwarwes t@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of DORR64OVI@aol. com
                                        Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 9:15 PM
                                        To: civilwarwest@ yahoogroupscom
                                        Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge

                                         

                                        In a message dated 9/11/2008 10:04:15 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, keeno2@... writes:

                                        Aren't the Red Sox in the Eastern Theater? Foul!

                                        The Red Sox comprise an entire Nation...where have you been?

                                         

                                        Kent Dorr

                                        Tribe fan




                                      • Tom Mix
                                        RED Sox ... From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John LaPorta Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2008 11:42 PM To:
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Sep 14, 2008
                                        • 0 Attachment

                                          RED Sox

                                           

                                          -----Original Message-----
                                          From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John LaPorta
                                          Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2008 11:42 PM
                                          To: civilwarwest@yahoogroupscom
                                          Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge

                                           

                                          Did you say White Sox or Red Sox.......you are a White Sox fan like me right?

                                          anyway Chicago is further west ..

                                          John (the captain in Mississippi)

                                          --- On Thu, 9/11/08, keeno2@... <keeno2@...> wrote:

                                          From: keeno2@... <keeno2@...>
                                          Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge
                                          To: civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com
                                          Date: Thursday, September 11, 2008, 9:03 PM

                                          Being a Red Sox fan, anything you say can and will be used against you. You have the right to remain silent. You have the right to counsel and, if you can't afford it, counsel will be provided to you at no cost.

                                           

                                          Aren't the Red Sox in the Eastern Theater? Foul!

                                           

                                          ken



                                           

                                        • Tom Mix
                                          Loyal, devoted, fanatical and perhaps a bit pathetic Boston Red Sox fans!! ... From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Sep 14, 2008
                                          • 0 Attachment

                                            Loyal, devoted, fanatical and perhaps a bit pathetic Boston Red Sox fans!!

                                             

                                            -----Original Message-----
                                            From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John LaPorta
                                            Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2008 11:43 PM
                                            To: civilwarwest@yahoogroupscom
                                            Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge

                                             

                                            A nation of what???

                                            --- On Thu, 9/11/08, DORR64OVI@aol. com <DORR64OVI@aol. com> wrote:

                                            From: DORR64OVI@aol. com <DORR64OVI@aol. com>
                                            Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge
                                            To: civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com
                                            Date: Thursday, September 11, 2008, 9:15 PM

                                            In a message dated 9/11/2008 10:04:15 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, keeno2@... writes:

                                            Aren't the Red Sox in the Eastern Theater? Foul!

                                            The Red Sox comprise an entire Nation...where have you been?

                                             

                                            Kent Dorr

                                            Tribe fan



                                             

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