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Bowen at Big Black Bridge

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  • Carl Williams
    Following up on this, regarding what the author Tucker has to say about Bowen and his performance at Big Black Bridge. This is the battle immediately after
    Message 1 of 23 , Sep 5, 2008
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      Following up on this, regarding what the author Tucker has to say
      about Bowen and his performance at Big Black Bridge. This is the
      battle immediately after Champion Hill where the Rebs [probably
      ill-advisedly] try to make another stand.

      Tucker paints a scene of great disorganization immediately after a
      defeat, of course. Bowen finds a dissatisfactory line of defense
      already set up, cotton bails not coordinated with any other natural
      defensive features. They are on the wrong side of the river [in front
      of it]. Bowen was typically excellent at these situations, but this
      time he had his hands full trying to rally his troops while the Yanks
      are wasting no time attacking. Almost immediately we get General
      Lawler's famed attack with a brigade out of the "meander scar", taking
      advantage of this poorly planned line; Bowen, unable to take the time
      to look for such weaknesses, has missed it completely and put East
      Tennessee conscripts to man this same point. They are routed and the
      defensive position collapses. You have to wonder how the Feds got this
      lucky, was some kind of Intel involved?

      The author doesn't white-wash Bowen on this, I wouldn't say, just lets
      the situation speak for itself. On the other hand, he drops mention of
      it when rehearsing Bowen's career actions, something that the book is
      excessively full of.

      He does make the case that Bowen has the bad luck to constantly be
      facing Grant in his career. Basically we wind up trying to judge how
      good a General Bowen was when he was somebody who was always involved
      with a losing campaign. That he was a great General can't be doubted
      IMO in that such a person should wind up being a scapegoat, yet the
      opposite was true, the Confederate leadership kept placing a higher
      and higher value on the man. That he is largely forgotten today,
      though, has to be laid to the ignominy of the failed campaigns.

      Carl
    • Tony Gunter
      ... front ... Yanks ... taking ... time ... this ... lets ... of ... is ... involved ... Some points: Pemberton was the commander, not Bowen, and Pemberton
      Message 2 of 23 , Sep 8, 2008
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        --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Williams" <carlw4514@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Following up on this, regarding what the author Tucker has to say
        > about Bowen and his performance at Big Black Bridge. This is the
        > battle immediately after Champion Hill where the Rebs [probably
        > ill-advisedly] try to make another stand.
        >
        > Tucker paints a scene of great disorganization immediately after a
        > defeat, of course. Bowen finds a dissatisfactory line of defense
        > already set up, cotton bails not coordinated with any other natural
        > defensive features. They are on the wrong side of the river [in
        front
        > of it]. Bowen was typically excellent at these situations, but this
        > time he had his hands full trying to rally his troops while the
        Yanks
        > are wasting no time attacking. Almost immediately we get General
        > Lawler's famed attack with a brigade out of the "meander scar",
        taking
        > advantage of this poorly planned line; Bowen, unable to take the
        time
        > to look for such weaknesses, has missed it completely and put East
        > Tennessee conscripts to man this same point. They are routed and the
        > defensive position collapses. You have to wonder how the Feds got
        this
        > lucky, was some kind of Intel involved?
        >
        > The author doesn't white-wash Bowen on this, I wouldn't say, just
        lets
        > the situation speak for itself. On the other hand, he drops mention
        of
        > it when rehearsing Bowen's career actions, something that the book
        is
        > excessively full of.
        >
        > He does make the case that Bowen has the bad luck to constantly be
        > facing Grant in his career. Basically we wind up trying to judge how
        > good a General Bowen was when he was somebody who was always
        involved
        > with a losing campaign. That he was a great General can't be doubted
        > IMO in that such a person should wind up being a scapegoat, yet the
        > opposite was true, the Confederate leadership kept placing a higher
        > and higher value on the man. That he is largely forgotten today,
        > though, has to be laid to the ignominy of the failed campaigns.
        >

        Some points:

        Pemberton was the commander, not Bowen, and Pemberton actually
        dictated the troop dispositions. The troops that broke were of
        Vaughn's Brigade of M.L. Smith's division, not Bowen's Division. And
        the charge that broke the line was not a spurious lunge by a single
        brigade, but a planned assault by Carr's entire division with a
        regiment of Osterhaus' men acting as skirmishers.

        I can't remember, but if Bowen has one point of blame here, he may
        have actually designed the layout of the fortifications (although he
        actually had the good sense to point out to Pemberton that it was a
        flawed position that could easily be flanked via Bridgeport or points
        north).
      • Carl Williams
        if the author is to be believed, Bowen s strong point was designing defensive positions, as at Grand Gulf, so I d guess someone else laid out the defensive
        Message 3 of 23 , Sep 8, 2008
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          if the author is to be believed, Bowen's strong point was designing
          defensive positions, as at Grand Gulf, so I'd guess someone else laid
          out the defensive line

          >
          > I can't remember, but if Bowen has one point of blame here, he may
          > have actually designed the layout of the fortifications (although he
          > actually had the good sense to point out to Pemberton that it was a
          > flawed position that could easily be flanked via Bridgeport or points
          > north).
          >
        • Tom Mix
          Carl, As you have progressed in the book, what is your general opinion of it now? Still highly slanted toward Bowen and lacking in some accuracy? Kind of
          Message 4 of 23 , Sep 9, 2008
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            Carl,

            As you have progressed in the book, what is your general opinion of it now? Still highly slanted toward Bowen and lacking in some accuracy?  Kind of sounds like it may have lived up to your original general impressions as you began the book.

            Tom

             

            -----Original Message-----
            From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carl Williams
            Sent: Monday, September 08, 2008 1:14 PM
            To: civilwarwest@yahoogroupscom
            Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge

             

            if the author is to be believed, Bowen's strong point was designing
            defensive positions, as at Grand Gulf, so I'd guess someone else laid
            out the defensive line

            >
            > I can't remember, but if Bowen has one point of blame here, he may
            > have actually designed the layout of the fortifications (although he
            > actually had the good sense to point out to Pemberton that it was a
            > flawed position that could easily be flanked via Bridgeport or points
            > north).
            >

          • Tony Gunter
            ... laid ... It s going to take some digging to figure out who designed the BBRB defenses, going backwards through the OR from May. No easy text to search
            Message 5 of 23 , Sep 9, 2008
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              --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Williams" <carlw4514@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > if the author is to be believed, Bowen's strong point was designing
              > defensive positions, as at Grand Gulf, so I'd guess someone else
              laid
              > out the defensive line

              It's going to take some digging to figure out who designed the BBRB
              defenses, going backwards through the OR from May. No easy text to
              search for, because it's just referred to as "the bridge." I know
              Bowen was positioned at the bridge for months before moving to Port
              Gibson, and the fortifications were started during that time.

              The physical flaw in the fortifications was that the defenses could
              be approached by a large body of men walking behind the natural levee
              of the river, until they got to a slough that provided a staging
              point just 100 yards from the defensive line. Making this a critical
              flaw was the fact that Pemberton had positioned a brigade composed
              largely of conscripts at this point, with no reserve to back them up.

              Pemberton could have prevented this by having sharpshooters posted on
              the north bank of the BBR, or by having his strongest unit posted at
              this point, or having a reserve that could fill into the gap if this
              point was successfully assaulted.

              As far as how the federal assault went down, a cavalryman reported
              the flaw to Lawler, who asked permission to attempt the works. Carr
              approved of Lawler's plan to shift his brigade to the river, which
              would leave a thousand-yard gap between his two brigades. Carr,
              without apparently going through McClernand, informed Osterhaus what
              was going on, and asked Osterhaus for a regiment of skirmishers to
              connect the two brigades with a long skirmish line.

              So not only was Carr's entire division engaged in the assault, but
              Osterhaus' men were aware of what was going on, and were ready to
              apply pressure if the Missourians in their front began to shift.

              We can only speculate what the beef was between Carr and McClernand,
              but I'm guessing by the promotion order suggested by McClernand that
              Carr felt his talents were being wasted and unrecognized.
            • Carl Williams
              Again that s The Forgotten Stonewall of the West : Major General John Stevens Bowen, Mercer University Press, 1997, by Phillip Thomas Tucker. Tom, the
              Message 6 of 23 , Sep 9, 2008
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                Again that's "The Forgotten 'Stonewall of the West': Major General
                John Stevens Bowen," Mercer University Press, 1997, by Phillip Thomas
                Tucker.

                Tom, the author managed to write an interesting story, even though the
                writing was not good. He reminded me of a High School student who has
                to write 150 words, finds he only wrote 100, so goes back and repeats
                the same sentences in a slightly different way... no kidding. It was
                very repetitive in this way.

                I otherwise have not boned up on Bowen, other than having noted that
                he seemed to be stand out at Champion Hill. So I can't tell if
                something was wrong with what the book had to say. I get the feeling
                that the author would be capable of glossing over Bowen's flaws. After
                all he poses Bowen as a Stonewall of the West; this is not to say
                'instead of Cleburne' but a special Stonewall in the category of
                'forgotten' I guess. The sort of glorifying that the book has makes
                you recall some old hero worshipping in the Southern style.
                Nonetheless he makes a pretty good case but perhaps historians would
                differ with him in important matters. As far as recommending it, you'd
                be happy with the book if you can look over the quality of the writing
                and the hero-worshipping sort of style. Obviously many could not
                overlook these things, so I'd say I'd generally not recommend it but
                was not sorry I read it myself

                Carl

                --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mix" <tmix@...> wrote:
                >
                > Carl,
                >
                > As you have progressed in the book, what is your general opinion of
                it now?
                > Still highly slanted toward Bowen and lacking in some accuracy? Kind of
                > sounds like it may have lived up to your original general
                impressions as you
                > began the book.
                >
                > Tom
                >
              • Tom Mix
                Thanks so much, Carl, for the honest appraisal. I think I ll take your advice and pass on it. Bowen was an excellent General but not a Stonewall. He did work
                Message 7 of 23 , Sep 9, 2008
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                  Thanks so much, Carl, for the honest appraisal.  I think I’ll take your advice and pass on it. Bowen was an excellent General but not a Stonewall.  He did work better with others than Jackson and that speaks well of Bowen, who from readings was an excellent Division and Corps commander. It sounds like it may be better to just pick up information on him by reading books devoted to subjects where he was involved like Champion Hill which has had some fine books on it over the last several years.  

                  If anyone out there board games, The Gamers “Champion Hill” is an excellent game and Bowen shines with a well deserved high rating in it.  Thanks to him and failure to get orders through I lost that battle once.  But not the next time.

                  Tom

                   

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carl Williams
                  Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 11:58 AM
                  To: civilwarwest@yahoogroupscom
                  Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge

                   


                  Again that's "The Forgotten 'Stonewall of the West': Major General
                  John Stevens Bowen," Mercer University Press, 1997, by Phillip Thomas
                  Tucker.

                  Tom, the author managed to write an interesting story, even though the
                  writing was not good. He reminded me of a High School student who has
                  to write 150 words, finds he only wrote 100, so goes back and repeats
                  the same sentences in a slightly different way... no kidding. It was
                  very repetitive in this way.

                  I otherwise have not boned up on Bowen, other than having noted that
                  he seemed to be stand out at Champion Hill. So I can't tell if
                  something was wrong with what the book had to say. I get the feeling
                  that the author would be capable of glossing over Bowen's flaws. After
                  all he poses Bowen as a Stonewall of the West; this is not to say
                  'instead of Cleburne' but a special Stonewall in the category of
                  'forgotten' I guess. The sort of glorifying that the book has makes
                  you recall some old hero worshipping in the Southern style.
                  Nonetheless he makes a pretty good case but perhaps historians would
                  differ with him in important matters. As far as recommending it, you'd
                  be happy with the book if you can look over the quality of the writing
                  and the hero-worshipping sort of style. Obviously many could not
                  overlook these things, so I'd say I'd generally not recommend it but
                  was not sorry I read it myself

                  Carl

                  --- In civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com, "Tom Mix" <tmix@...> wrote:

                  >
                  > Carl,
                  >
                  > As you have progressed in the book, what is your general opinion of
                  it now?
                  > Still highly slanted toward Bowen and lacking in some accuracy? Kind of
                  > sounds like it may have lived up to your original general
                  impressions as you
                  > began the book.
                  >
                  > Tom
                  >

                • Tony Gunter
                  ... Carr ... what ... McClernand, ... that ... Whoah! Never caught this before, but apparently the beef was between McClernand and Grant himself. Grant
                  Message 8 of 23 , Sep 10, 2008
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                    --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Tony Gunter" <tony_gunter@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > As far as how the federal assault went down, a cavalryman reported
                    > the flaw to Lawler, who asked permission to attempt the works.
                    Carr
                    > approved of Lawler's plan to shift his brigade to the river, which
                    > would leave a thousand-yard gap between his two brigades. Carr,
                    > without apparently going through McClernand, informed Osterhaus
                    what
                    > was going on, and asked Osterhaus for a regiment of skirmishers to
                    > connect the two brigades with a long skirmish line.
                    >
                    > So not only was Carr's entire division engaged in the assault, but
                    > Osterhaus' men were aware of what was going on, and were ready to
                    > apply pressure if the Missourians in their front began to shift.
                    >
                    > We can only speculate what the beef was between Carr and
                    McClernand,
                    > but I'm guessing by the promotion order suggested by McClernand
                    that
                    > Carr felt his talents were being wasted and unrecognized.

                    Whoah! Never caught this before, but apparently the beef was between
                    McClernand and Grant himself. Grant writes in his memoirs that he
                    personally met Carr on Champion Hill, and ordered him to pursue
                    Pemberton across the Big Black if possible, with Osterhaus to follow
                    Carr.

                    So apparently, Carr was operating independently of McClernand for
                    this period by order of Grant, who possibly was miffed over
                    McClernand's failure to show up at Champion Hill.
                  • Carl Williams
                    I m thinking McClernand is sorely missed at about the same time Bowen counter-attacks. That sort of timing can make an impression. ... wrote: [...]
                    Message 9 of 23 , Sep 11, 2008
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                      I'm thinking McClernand is sorely missed at about the same time Bowen
                      counter-attacks. That sort of timing can make an impression.

                      --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Tony Gunter" <tony_gunter@...>
                      wrote:
                      [...]
                      >
                      > So apparently, Carr was operating independently of McClernand for
                      > this period by order of Grant, who possibly was miffed over
                      > McClernand's failure to show up at Champion Hill.
                      >
                    • John LaPorta
                      Thank you Tom  for all the information that you give freely in your posts..I wanted to ask where can you find civil war games like the one you mentioned? I am
                      Message 10 of 23 , Sep 11, 2008
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                        Thank you Tom  for all the information that you give freely in your posts.I wanted to ask where can you find civil war games like the one you mentioned? I am currently involved in the American Conquest a Divided Nation game on the internet and would like others any help appreciated.
                        John ...the captain in Mississippi

                        --- On Tue, 9/9/08, Tom Mix <tmix@...> wrote:
                        From: Tom Mix <tmix@...>
                        Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge
                        To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Tuesday, September 9, 2008, 6:06 PM

                        Thanks so much, Carl, for the honest appraisal.  I think I’ll take your advice and pass on it. Bowen was an excellent General but not a Stonewall.  He did work better with others than Jackson and that speaks well of Bowen, who from readings was an excellent Division and Corps commander. It sounds like it may be better to just pick up information on him by reading books devoted to subjects where he was involved like Champion Hill which has had some fine books on it over the last several years.  

                        If anyone out there board games, The Gamers “Champion Hill” is an excellent game and Bowen shines with a well deserved high rating in it.  Thanks to him and failure to get orders through I lost that battle once.  But not the next time.

                        Tom

                         

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:civilwarwes t@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Carl Williams
                        Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 11:58 AM
                        To: civilwarwest@ yahoogroupscom
                        Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge

                         


                        Again that's "The Forgotten 'Stonewall of the West': Major General
                        John Stevens Bowen," Mercer University Press, 1997, by Phillip Thomas
                        Tucker.

                        Tom, the author managed to write an interesting story, even though the
                        writing was not good. He reminded me of a High School student who has
                        to write 150 words, finds he only wrote 100, so goes back and repeats
                        the same sentences in a slightly different way... no kidding. It was
                        very repetitive in this way.

                        I otherwise have not boned up on Bowen, other than having noted that
                        he seemed to be stand out at Champion Hill. So I can't tell if
                        something was wrong with what the book had to say. I get the feeling
                        that the author would be capable of glossing over Bowen's flaws. After
                        all he poses Bowen as a Stonewall of the West; this is not to say
                        'instead of Cleburne' but a special Stonewall in the category of
                        'forgotten' I guess. The sort of glorifying that the book has makes
                        you recall some old hero worshipping in the Southern style.
                        Nonetheless he makes a pretty good case but perhaps historians would
                        differ with him in important matters. As far as recommending it, you'd
                        be happy with the book if you can look over the quality of the writing
                        and the hero-worshipping sort of style. Obviously many could not
                        overlook these things, so I'd say I'd generally not recommend it but
                        was not sorry I read it myself

                        Carl

                        --- In civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com, "Tom Mix" <tmix@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Carl,
                        >
                        > As you have progressed in the book, what is your general opinion of
                        it now?
                        > Still highly slanted toward Bowen and lacking in some accuracy? Kind of
                        > sounds like it may have lived up to your original general
                        impressions as you
                        > began the book.
                        >
                        > Tom
                        >


                      • Tom Mix
                        The Gamers still exist but were bought my Multi Man Publishing (MMP) and are now a sub group of it. MMP is owned by Red Sox great Curt Schilling who is an avid
                        Message 11 of 23 , Sep 11, 2008
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                          The Gamers still exist but were bought my Multi Man Publishing (MMP) and are now a sub group of it. MMP is owned by Red Sox great Curt Schilling who is an avid gamer too.  (and I’m an avid Red Sox fan.)

                          You can find them at MultiManPublishing.com  or multimanpublishing.com which ever works.   Click on The Gamers, then Civil War Brigade series and you’ll find all of their available games. Champion Hill is still available for $28.  It is the best ACW series I have ever played. They also have a great Napoleonic series based  on the same system.

                          Good luck, if I can be any help, let me know,

                          Tom

                           

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From:
                          civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John LaPorta
                          Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 3:52 PM
                          To:
                          civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge

                           

                          Thank you Tom  for all the information that you give freely in your posts.I wanted to ask where can you find civil war games like the one you mentioned? I am currently involved in the American Conquest a Divided Nation game on the internet and would like others any help appreciated.

                          John ...the captain in Mississippi

                          --- On Tue, 9/9/08, Tom Mix <
                          tmix@insightbb. com> wrote:

                          From: Tom Mix <tmix@insightbb. com>
                          Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge
                          To: civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com
                          Date: Tuesday, September 9, 2008, 6:06 PM

                          Thanks so much, Carl, for the honest appraisal.  I think I’ll take your advice and pass on it. Bowen was an excellent General but not a Stonewall.  He did work better with others than Jackson and that speaks well of Bowen, who from readings was an excellent Division and Corps commander. It sounds like it may be better to just pick up information on him by reading books devoted to subjects where he was involved like Champion Hill which has had some fine books on it over the last several years.  

                          If anyone out there board games, The Gamers “Champion Hill” is an excellent game and Bowen shines with a well deserved high rating in it.  Thanks to him and failure to get orders through I lost that battle once.  But not the next time.

                          Tom

                           

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:civilwarwes t@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of
                          Carl Williams
                          Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 11:58 AM
                          To: civilwarwest@ yahoogroupscom
                          Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge

                           


                          Again that's "The Forgotten 'Stonewall of the West': Major General
                          John Stevens Bowen," Mercer University Press, 1997, by Phillip Thomas
                          Tucker.

                          Tom, the author managed to write an interesting story, even though the
                          writing was not good. He reminded me of a High School student who has
                          to write 150 words, finds he only wrote 100, so goes back and repeats
                          the same sentences in a slightly different way... no kidding. It was
                          very repetitive in this way.

                          I otherwise have not boned up on Bowen, other than having noted that
                          he seemed to be stand out at Champion Hill. So I can't tell if
                          something was wrong with what the book had to say. I get the feeling
                          that the author would be capable of glossing over Bowen's flaws. After
                          all he poses Bowen as a Stonewall of the West; this is not to say
                          'in
                          stead of Cleburne' but a special Stonewall in the category of
                          'forgotten' I guess. The sort of glorifying that the book has makes
                          you recall some old hero worshipping in the Southern style.
                          Nonetheless he makes a pretty good case but perhaps historians would
                          differ with him in important matters. As far as recommending it, you'd
                          be happy with the book if you can look over the quality of the writing
                          and the hero-worshipping sort of style. Obviously many could not
                          overlook these things, so I'd say I'd generally not recommend it but
                          was not sorry I read it myself

                          Carl

                          --- In civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com, "Tom Mix" <tmix@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Carl,
                          >
                          > As you have progressed in the book, what is your general opinion of
                          it now?
                          > Still highly slanted toward Bowen and lacking in some accuracy? Kind of
                          > sounds like it may have lived up to your original general
                          impressions as you
                          > began the book.
                          >
                          > Tom
                          >

                           

                        • Tom Mix
                          John, I seem to be having some problem getting this though. You can reach me off line at tmix@insightbb.com Tom ... From: Tom Mix [mailto:tmix@insightbb.com]
                          Message 12 of 23 , Sep 11, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment

                            John,

                            I seem to be having some problem getting this though. You can reach me off line at tmix@...

                            Tom

                             

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Tom Mix [mailto:tmix@...]
                            Sent:
                            Thursday, September 11, 2008 4:15 PM
                            To: 'civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com'
                            Subject: FW: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at
                            Big Black Bridge

                             

                             

                             

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Tom Mix [mailto:tmix@...]
                            Sent:
                            Thursday, September 11, 2008 4:04 PM
                            To: 'civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com'
                            Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at
                            Big Black Bridge

                            John,

                            The Gamers still exist but were bought my Multi Man Publishing (MMP) and are now a sub group of it. MMP is owned by Red Sox great Curt Schilling who is an avid gamer too.  (and I’m an avid Red Sox fan.)

                            You can find them at MultiManPublishing.com  or multimanpublishing.com which ever works.   Click on The Gamers, then Civil War Brigade series and you’ll find all of their available games. Champion Hill is still available for $28.  It is the best ACW series I have ever played. They also have a great Napoleonic series based  on the same system.

                            Good luck, if I can be any help, let me know,

                            Tom

                             

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John LaPorta
                            Sent:
                            Thursday, September 11, 2008 3:52 PM
                            To: civilwarwest@yahoogroupscom
                            Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at
                            Big Black Bridge

                             

                            Thank you Tom  for all the information that you give freely in your posts.I wanted to ask where can you find civil war games like the one you mentioned? I am currently involved in the American Conquest a Divided Nation game on the internet and would like others any help appreciated.

                            John ...the captain in Mississippi

                            --- On Tue, 9/9/08, Tom Mix <tmix@insightbb. com> wrote:

                            From: Tom Mix <tmix@insightbb. com>
                            Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at
                            Big Black Bridge
                            To: civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com
                            Date: Tuesday, September 9, 2008, 6:06 PM

                            Thanks so much, Carl, for the honest appraisal.  I think I’ll take your advice and pass on it. Bowen was an excellent General but not a Stonewall.  He did work better with others than Jackson and that speaks well of Bowen, who from readings was an excellent Division and Corps commander. It sounds like it may be better to just pick up information on him by reading books devoted to subjects where he was involved like Champion Hill which has had some fine books on it over the last several years.  

                            If anyone out there board games, The Gamers “Champion Hill” is an excellent game and Bowen shines with a well deserved high rating in it.  Thanks to him and failure to get orders through I lost that battle once.  But not the next time.

                            Tom

                             

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:civilwarwes t@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Carl Williams
                            Sent:
                            Tuesday, September 09, 2008 11:58 AM
                            To: civilwarwest@ yahoogroupscom
                            Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at
                            Big Black Bridge

                             


                            Again that's "The Forgotten 'Stonewall of the West': Major General
                            John Stevens Bowen,"
                            Mercer University Press, 1997, by Phillip Thomas
                            Tucker.

                            Tom, the author managed to write an interesting story, even though the
                            writing was not good. He reminded me of a High School student who has
                            to write 150 words, finds he only wrote 100, so goes back and repeats
                            the same sentences in a slightly different way... no kidding. It was
                            very repetitive in this way.

                            I otherwise have not boned up on Bowen, other than having noted that
                            he seemed to be stand out at Champion Hill. So I can't tell if
                            something was wrong with what the book had to say. I get the feeling
                            that the author would be capable of glossing over Bowen's flaws. After
                            all he poses Bowen as a Stonewall of the West; this is not to say
                            'instead of Cleburne' but a special Stonewall in the category of
                            'forgotten' I guess. The sort of glorifying that the book has makes
                            you recall some old hero worshipping in the Southern style.
                            Nonetheless he makes a pretty good case but perhaps historians would
                            differ with him in important matters. As far as recommending it, you'd
                            be happy with the book if you can look over the quality of the writing
                            and the hero-worshipping sort of style. Obviously many could not
                            overlook these things, so I'd say I'd generally not recommend it but
                            was not sorry I read it myself

                            Carl

                            --- In civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com, "Tom Mix" <tmix@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Carl,
                            >
                            > As you have progressed in the book, what is your general opinion of
                            it now?
                            > Still highly slanted toward Bowen and lacking in some accuracy? Kind of
                            > sounds like it may have lived up to your original general
                            impressions as you
                            > began the book.
                            >
                            > Tom
                            >

                             

                          • Tom Mix
                            Absolutely, Bowen virtually marched right past McClernand s front to reinforce Champion Hill with McClernand doing nothing at all about it. He may have taken
                            Message 13 of 23 , Sep 11, 2008
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                              Absolutely, Bowen virtually marched right past McClernand’s front to reinforce Champion Hill with McClernand doing nothing at all about it.  He may have taken a photo or two, sold a tourist map to the Rebs or asked for their vote for not bothering them in their travels.

                              Tom

                               

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carl Williams
                              Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 3:52 AM
                              To: civilwarwest@yahoogroupscom
                              Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge

                               

                              I'm thinking McClernand is sorely missed at about the same time Bowen
                              counter-attacks. That sort of timing can make an impression.

                              --- In civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com, "Tony Gunter" <tony_gunter@ ...>
                              wrote:
                              [...]

                              >
                              > So apparently, Carr was operating independently of McClernand for
                              > this period by order of Grant, who possibly was miffed over
                              > McClernand's failure to show up at Champion Hill.
                              >

                            • keeno2@aol.com
                              Being a Red Sox fan, anything you say can and will be used against you. You have the right to remain silent. You have the right to counsel and, if you can t
                              Message 14 of 23 , Sep 11, 2008
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                                Being a Red Sox fan, anything you say can and will be used against you. You have the right to remain silent. You have the right to counsel and, if you can't afford it, counsel will be provided to you at no cost.
                                 
                                Aren't the Red Sox in the Eastern Theater? Foul!
                                 
                                ken



                              • DORR64OVI@aol.com
                                In a message dated 9/11/2008 10:04:15 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, keeno2@aol.com writes: Aren t the Red Sox in the Eastern Theater? Foul! The Red Sox comprise
                                Message 15 of 23 , Sep 11, 2008
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  In a message dated 9/11/2008 10:04:15 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, keeno2@... writes:
                                  Aren't the Red Sox in the Eastern Theater? Foul!
                                  The Red Sox comprise an entire Nation...where have you been?
                                   
                                  Kent Dorr
                                  Tribe fan



                                • Tom Mix
                                  Ken, Well, I guess I ll have to plead guilty to all charges. Is my sentence to set in side the Green Monster with the rats? Tom ... From:
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Sep 11, 2008
                                  • 0 Attachment

                                    Ken,

                                    Well, I guess I’ll have to plead guilty to all charges.  Is my sentence to set in side the Green Monster with the rats?

                                    Tom

                                     

                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of keeno2@...
                                    Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 9:04 PM
                                    To: civilwarwest@yahoogroupscom
                                    Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge

                                     

                                    Being a Red Sox fan, anything you say can and will be used against you. You have the right to remain silent. You have the right to counsel and, if you can't afford it, counsel will be provided to you at no cost.

                                     

                                    Aren't the Red Sox in the Eastern Theater? Foul!

                                     

                                    ken



                                  • Tom Mix
                                    Great point!!! I have my defense council. And I am a charter member of Red Sox Nation too. Thanks, Kent! Tom The Tribe is finally playing better. Cy Lee has
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Sep 11, 2008
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                                      Great point!!! I have my defense council. And I am a charter member of Red Sox Nation too.

                                      Thanks, Kent!

                                      Tom

                                       

                                      The Tribe is finally playing better. “Cy” Lee has saved their season from being a total loss.

                                       

                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of DORR64OVI@...
                                      Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 9:15 PM
                                      To: civilwarwest@yahoogroupscom
                                      Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge

                                       

                                      In a message dated 9/11/2008 10:04:15 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, keeno2@... writes:

                                      Aren't the Red Sox in the Eastern Theater? Foul!

                                      The Red Sox comprise an entire Nation...where have you been?

                                       

                                      Kent Dorr

                                      Tribe fan



                                    • John LaPorta
                                      Did you say White Sox or Red Sox.......you are a White Sox fan like me right? anyway Chicago is further west . John (the captain in Mississippi) ... From:
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Sep 13, 2008
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Did you say White Sox or Red Sox.......you are a White Sox fan like me right?
                                        anyway Chicago is further west .
                                        John (the captain in Mississippi)

                                        --- On Thu, 9/11/08, keeno2@... <keeno2@...> wrote:
                                        From: keeno2@... <keeno2@...>
                                        Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge
                                        To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                        Date: Thursday, September 11, 2008, 9:03 PM

                                        Being a Red Sox fan, anything you say can and will be used against you. You have the right to remain silent. You have the right to counsel and, if you can't afford it, counsel will be provided to you at no cost.
                                         
                                        Aren't the Red Sox in the Eastern Theater? Foul!
                                         
                                        ken




                                      • John LaPorta
                                        A nation of what??? ... From: DORR64OVI@aol.com Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Sep 13, 2008
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          A nation of what???

                                          --- On Thu, 9/11/08, DORR64OVI@... <DORR64OVI@...> wrote:
                                          From: DORR64OVI@... <DORR64OVI@...>
                                          Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge
                                          To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                          Date: Thursday, September 11, 2008, 9:15 PM

                                          In a message dated 9/11/2008 10:04:15 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, keeno2@... writes:
                                          Aren't the Red Sox in the Eastern Theater? Foul!
                                          The Red Sox comprise an entire Nation...where have you been?
                                           
                                          Kent Dorr
                                          Tribe fan




                                        • John LaPorta
                                          LOL you guys are funny ... From: Tom Mix Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com Date:
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Sep 13, 2008
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            LOL you guys are funny

                                            --- On Thu, 9/11/08, Tom Mix <tmix@...> wrote:
                                            From: Tom Mix <tmix@...>
                                            Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge
                                            To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                            Date: Thursday, September 11, 2008, 10:17 PM

                                            Ken,

                                            Well, I guess I’ll have to plead guilty to all charges.  Is my sentence to set in side the Green Monster with the rats?

                                            Tom

                                             

                                            -----Original Message-----
                                            From: civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:civilwarwes t@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of keeno2@...
                                            Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 9:04 PM
                                            To: civilwarwest@ yahoogroupscom
                                            Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge

                                             

                                            Being a Red Sox fan, anything you say can and will be used against you. You have the right to remain silent. You have the right to counsel and, if you can't afford it, counsel will be provided to you at no cost.

                                             

                                            Aren't the Red Sox in the Eastern Theater? Foul!

                                             

                                            ken




                                          • John LaPorta
                                             GO BEARS!!!!!! ... From: Tom Mix Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com Date:
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Sep 13, 2008
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                               GO BEARS!!!!!!

                                              --- On Thu, 9/11/08, Tom Mix <tmix@...> wrote:
                                              From: Tom Mix <tmix@...>
                                              Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge
                                              To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                              Date: Thursday, September 11, 2008, 10:20 PM

                                              Great point!!! I have my defense council. And I am a charter member of Red Sox Nation too.

                                              Thanks, Kent!

                                              Tom

                                               

                                              The Tribe is finally playing better. “Cy” Lee has saved their season from being a total loss..

                                               

                                              -----Original Message-----
                                              From: civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:civilwarwes t@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of DORR64OVI@aol. com
                                              Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 9:15 PM
                                              To: civilwarwest@ yahoogroupscom
                                              Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge

                                               

                                              In a message dated 9/11/2008 10:04:15 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, keeno2@... writes:

                                              Aren't the Red Sox in the Eastern Theater? Foul!

                                              The Red Sox comprise an entire Nation...where have you been?

                                               

                                              Kent Dorr

                                              Tribe fan




                                            • Tom Mix
                                              RED Sox ... From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John LaPorta Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2008 11:42 PM To:
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Sep 14, 2008
                                              • 0 Attachment

                                                RED Sox

                                                 

                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John LaPorta
                                                Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2008 11:42 PM
                                                To: civilwarwest@yahoogroupscom
                                                Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge

                                                 

                                                Did you say White Sox or Red Sox.......you are a White Sox fan like me right?

                                                anyway Chicago is further west ..

                                                John (the captain in Mississippi)

                                                --- On Thu, 9/11/08, keeno2@... <keeno2@...> wrote:

                                                From: keeno2@... <keeno2@...>
                                                Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge
                                                To: civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com
                                                Date: Thursday, September 11, 2008, 9:03 PM

                                                Being a Red Sox fan, anything you say can and will be used against you. You have the right to remain silent. You have the right to counsel and, if you can't afford it, counsel will be provided to you at no cost.

                                                 

                                                Aren't the Red Sox in the Eastern Theater? Foul!

                                                 

                                                ken



                                                 

                                              • Tom Mix
                                                Loyal, devoted, fanatical and perhaps a bit pathetic Boston Red Sox fans!! ... From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On
                                                Message 23 of 23 , Sep 14, 2008
                                                • 0 Attachment

                                                  Loyal, devoted, fanatical and perhaps a bit pathetic Boston Red Sox fans!!

                                                   

                                                  -----Original Message-----
                                                  From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John LaPorta
                                                  Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2008 11:43 PM
                                                  To: civilwarwest@yahoogroupscom
                                                  Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge

                                                   

                                                  A nation of what???

                                                  --- On Thu, 9/11/08, DORR64OVI@aol. com <DORR64OVI@aol. com> wrote:

                                                  From: DORR64OVI@aol. com <DORR64OVI@aol. com>
                                                  Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Bowen at Big Black Bridge
                                                  To: civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com
                                                  Date: Thursday, September 11, 2008, 9:15 PM

                                                  In a message dated 9/11/2008 10:04:15 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, keeno2@... writes:

                                                  Aren't the Red Sox in the Eastern Theater? Foul!

                                                  The Red Sox comprise an entire Nation...where have you been?

                                                   

                                                  Kent Dorr

                                                  Tribe fan



                                                   

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