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Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Was Logan dissed for higher command?

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  • Jason
    I love Sherman but its seems to me this was West Point snobbery. Logan was a very good corps. commander, had fought in the west from the beginning, the
    Message 1 of 28 , Jul 10, 2008
      I love Sherman but its seems to me this was West Point snobbery. Logan was a very good corps. commander, had fought in the west from the beginning, the soldiers liked him, and left the front for the most part on recruiting drives (IIRC). While Howard was a fine soldier his history as a corps commander in the east was not always exemplary to say the least.

      ----- Original Message ----
      From: Chadd Vail <cvail19@...>
      To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 4:11:38 PM
      Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Was Logan dissed for higher command?

      I don't think Logal was dissed or anything. I think it was a matter of who was more experienced and qualified to lead armies. And of course the political arena. Wasn't Logan running for something political around the time of the Savannah campaign? Could that have been a reason why Sherman didn't give Logan command of the AOT.

      Chadd M. Vail

      --- On Thu, 7/10/08, DORR64OVI@aol. com <DORR64OVI@aol. com> wrote:

      > From: DORR64OVI@aol. com <DORR64OVI@aol. com>
      > Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Was Logan dissed for higher command?
      > To: civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com
      > Date: Thursday, July 10, 2008, 12:00 PM
      > In a message dated 7/10/2008 11:46:59 A.M. Eastern Daylight
      > Time,
      > holywham@yahoo. com writes:
      >
      > Sherman fighting Prophet" by Lloyd Lewis,says Sherman
      > was thinking of
      > putting Logan to take over for Mac. but Thomas was very
      > much against
      > it and talked Sherman out of it. BvT
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > About a year ago (maybe longer) we had a discussion here
      > about this. After
      > Thomas was dead, Sherman claimed he let Old Pap talk him
      > out of promoting
      > Logan. However, it turns out that Sherman was basically
      > trying to shift the
      > blame for this from himself. At the time he wrote that
      > statement, Logan was a
      > powerful leader in Congress and had a large say in the
      > military's budget. As
      > General of the Army, Sherman correctly feared political
      > retribution from
      > Logan.
      >
      > Kent Dorr
      >
      >
      >
      > ************ **Get the scoop on last night's hottest
      > shows and the live music
      > scene in your area - Check out TourTracker. com!
      > (http://www.tourtrac ker.com?NCID= aolmus0005000000 0112)

    • keeno2@aol.com
      In a message dated 7/10/2008 6:36:20 P.M. Central Daylight Time, jvt1976@yahoo.com writes: I love Sherman but its seems to me this was West Point snobbery.
      Message 2 of 28 , Jul 10, 2008
        In a message dated 7/10/2008 6:36:20 P.M. Central Daylight Time, jvt1976@... writes:
        I love Sherman but its seems to me this was West Point snobbery.
        Possibly. But Sherman did agonize over the choice. It must have been tough. Sherman liked and trusted Logan. He also had an innate preference for someone who would be there and follow orders. We can whip this puppy, but it will end up in the same place: Sherman picks Howard. And he apologizes to Logan by having him lead the AotT during the Grand Review. It would have been a difficult decision and I can't toss it off as West Point snobbery.
         
        ken




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      • Carl Williams
        apparently Howard getting the job was too much for Hooker, who asked to be relieved and ...finished the war in the quiet sector of Michigan, Ohio, Indiana,
        Message 3 of 28 , Jul 11, 2008
          apparently Howard getting the job was too much for Hooker, who asked
          to be relieved and "...finished the war in the quiet sector of
          Michigan, Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois. "* The author of the
          aforementioned book seems to suggest he would not have done this if
          Logan had gotten the job. In other words, he didnt stomp off because
          he didnt get the job himself.

          * http://www.civilwarhome.com/hookbio.htm


          --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, Jason <jvt1976@...> wrote:
          ... While Howard was a fine soldier his history as a corps commander
          in the east was not always exemplary to say the least.
        • Chadd Vail
          Well everyone knows Hooker and Howard never saw eye to eye with each other. I think you can blame Chancelorsville on that one lols. And I agree I think if
          Message 4 of 28 , Jul 11, 2008
            Well everyone knows Hooker and Howard never saw eye to eye with each other. I think you can blame Chancelorsville on that one lols.

            And I agree I think if Logan might have been give command of AOT, Hooker would have stayed in the war.

            Chadd M. Vail


            --- On Fri, 7/11/08, Carl Williams <carlw4514@...> wrote:

            > From: Carl Williams <carlw4514@...>
            > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Was Logan dissed for higher command?
            > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
            > Date: Friday, July 11, 2008, 11:18 AM
            > apparently Howard getting the job was too much for Hooker,
            > who asked
            > to be relieved and "...finished the war in the quiet
            > sector of
            > Michigan, Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois. "* The author
            > of the
            > aforementioned book seems to suggest he would not have done
            > this if
            > Logan had gotten the job. In other words, he didnt stomp
            > off because
            > he didnt get the job himself.
            >
            > * http://www.civilwarhome.com/hookbio.htm
            >
            >
            > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, Jason
            > <jvt1976@...> wrote:
            > ... While Howard was a fine soldier his history as a corps
            > commander
            > in the east was not always exemplary to say the least.
          • SDE80@aol.com
            In a message dated 7/11/2008 4:19:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, cvail19@yahoo.com writes: Well everyone knows Hooker and Howard never saw eye to eye with
            Message 5 of 28 , Jul 11, 2008
              In a message dated 7/11/2008 4:19:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, cvail19@... writes:
              Well everyone knows Hooker and Howard never saw eye to eye with each other. I think you can blame Chancelorsville on that one lols.

              And I agree I think if Logan might have been give command of AOT, Hooker would have stayed in the war.
               
              Hooker got mad because Howard, a regular officer like him, was placed in command of the AotT, yet  he'd been OK with a non-professional volunteer being placed in command in his place?    I doubt it.   Probably would have made him much more upset.    Bottom line is that he was the senior of Sherman's corps commanders and had commanded an army once before.   Logan would have made him just as mad, if not madder.
               
              Sam Elliott




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            • Jason
              Wasn t Hooker pissed off about Slocum getting a command as well, or am I getting my facts screwed up? ... From: SDE80@aol.com To:
              Message 6 of 28 , Jul 11, 2008
                Wasn't Hooker pissed off about Slocum getting a command as well, or am I getting my facts screwed up?

                ----- Original Message ----
                From: "SDE80@..." <SDE80@...>
                To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Friday, July 11, 2008 4:00:21 PM
                Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Was Logan dissed for higher command?

                In a message dated 7/11/2008 4:19:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, cvail19@yahoo. com writes:
                Well everyone knows Hooker and Howard never saw eye to eye with each other. I think you can blame Chancelorsville on that one lols.

                And I agree I think if Logan might have been give command of AOT, Hooker would have stayed in the war.
                 
                Hooker got mad because Howard, a regular officer like him, was placed in command of the AotT, yet  he'd been OK with a non-professional volunteer being placed in command in his place?    I doubt it.   Probably would have made him much more upset.    Bottom line is that he was the senior of Sherman's corps commanders and had commanded an army once before.   Logan would have made him just as mad, if not madder.
                 
                Sam Elliott




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              • Tom Mix
                No, you are partially correct but it was Slocum who refused to server under Hooker. He simply despised the man. Hooker could tolerate Slocum but would never
                Message 7 of 28 , Jul 11, 2008

                  No, you are partially correct but it was Slocum who refused to server under Hooker.  He simply despised the man.  Hooker could tolerate Slocum but would never serve under him. Hooker had to learn to tolerate those who resented him since it was such a large club.  But his animosity toward Howard was justified as Howard had failed to bolster, heck, even make an effort, to build up a defensive position on the right flank of the Union Army at Chancellorsville.  Slocum’s animosity toward Hooker was just as justifiable. 

                  To pacify Slocum and keep him from resigning rather than server under Hooker, he was given command of the Vicksburg occupation and supply base where he was exceptional. Once Hooker left the army prior to Atlanta falling, Sherman quickly moved Slocum in where he rose to be Hooker’s number 2 man.  It was Slocum who first received the surrender of Atlanta and forwarded it on to Sherman’s HQ and it was Slocum who was the first Union force to enter Atlanta. Just after Atlanta Sherman divided his army into 2 separate army’s, confirmed by D.C. and used them as 2 independent wings under Sherman’s command. Slocum had one and Howard the other and Slocum performed excellently throughout the march to the sea and the fighting in the Carolina’s.  

                  Tom

                   

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jason
                  Sent: Friday, July 11, 2008 4:22 PM
                  To: civilwarwest@yahoogroupscom
                  Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Was Logan dissed for higher command?

                   

                  Wasn't Hooker pissed off about Slocum getting a command as well, or am I getting my facts screwed up?

                  ----- Original Message ----
                  From: "SDE80@..." <SDE80@...>
                  To: civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com
                  Sent: Friday, July 11, 2008 4:00:21 PM
                  Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Was Logan dissed for higher command?

                  In a message dated 7/11/2008 4:19:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, cvail19@yahoo. com writes:

                  Well everyone knows Hooker and Howard never saw eye to eye with each other. I think you can blame Chancelorsville on that one lols.

                  And I agree I think if Logan might have been give command of AOT, Hooker would have stayed in the war.

                   

                  Hooker got mad because Howard, a regular officer like him, was placed in command of the AotT, yet  he'd been OK with a non-professional volunteer being placed in command in his place?    I doubt it.   Probably would have made him much more upset.    Bottom line is that he was the senior of Sherman's corps commanders and had commanded an army once before.   Logan would have made him just as mad, if not madder.

                   

                  Sam Elliott




                  Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker. com!

                • keeno2@aol.com
                  In a message dated 7/11/2008 4:21:48 P.M. Central Daylight Time, jvt1976@yahoo.com writes: Logan would have made him just as mad, if not madder. Wasn t no way
                  Message 8 of 28 , Jul 11, 2008
                    In a message dated 7/11/2008 4:21:48 P.M. Central Daylight Time, jvt1976@... writes:
                    Logan would have made him just as mad, if not madder.
                    Wasn't no way Sherman was going to appoint Hooker. Howard is a bit of a surprise, and Sherman had some agonizing to do. In the end, he chose a man who thought as he did and would react to orders as he wanted. I'd guess, when you're in Sherman's spot, you get to have things the way you'd like them to be.
                     
                    Sherman had a bellyfull of Hooker in the old days back in California. It's not so strange for a man like Sherman to keep those embers burning. He did have an enormous personal problem in turning away from Logan. And I don't doubt that the West Point syndrome was a factor.
                     
                    ken




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                  • Carl Williams
                    what happened there?
                    Message 9 of 28 , Jul 12, 2008
                      what happened there?

                      --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, keeno2@... wrote:
                      >
                      >

                      > Sherman had a bellyfull of Hooker in the old days back in California.
                    • guitarmandanga
                      As far as I know, Hooker didn t blame Slocum for the outcome of Chancellorsville as much as he blamed Howard (whom he considered to be largely responsible for
                      Message 10 of 28 , Jul 12, 2008
                        As far as I know, Hooker didn't blame Slocum for the outcome of
                        Chancellorsville as much as he blamed Howard (whom he considered to
                        be largely responsible for it). For his part though, Slocum
                        detested Hooker for seemingly slaughtering the XII Corps at C'ville
                        with little to show for it, and then abandoning the campaign. The
                        rancor on Slocum's part ran so deep that when the XII Corps was sent
                        with the XI Corps to help out at Chattanooga under Hooker's overall
                        commander, Slocum requested to be reassigned. So the War Department
                        promptly placed him in command of the Vicksburg garrison &
                        environs. It was only after Hooker resigned in protest over
                        Howard's promotion that Slocum was tapped to take command of
                        Hooker's XX Corps. More than likely that choice was based on the
                        fact that the XX Corps was in part composed of Slocum's former
                        command (the XI Corps) anyway, and he would have been the most
                        senior general in the immediate area. Of course, the fact that
                        Slocum was Hooker's enemy could be those who wanted to see it as yet
                        another slap in Hooker's face by Sherman & the War Department, one
                        last rubbing of salt in the wounds as it were.

                        --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, Jason <jvt1976@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Wasn't Hooker pissed off about Slocum getting a command as well,
                        or am I getting my facts screwed up?
                        >
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message ----
                        > From: "SDE80@..." <SDE80@...>
                        > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Friday, July 11, 2008 4:00:21 PM
                        > Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Was Logan dissed for higher
                        command?
                        >
                        >
                        > In a message dated 7/11/2008 4:19:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                        > cvail19@yahoo. com writes:
                        > Well everyone knows Hooker and Howard never saw eye to eye with
                        each other. I think you can blame Chancelorsville on that one lols.
                        >
                        > And I agree I think if Logan might have been give command of AOT,
                        Hooker would have stayed in the war.
                        >
                        > Hooker got mad because Howard, a regular officer like him, was
                        placed in
                        > command of the AotT, yet he'd been OK with a non-professional
                        volunteer
                        > being placed in command in his place? I doubt it.
                        > Probably would have made him much more upset. Bottom line is
                        > that he was the senior of Sherman's corps commanders and had
                        commanded an army
                        > once before. Logan would have made him just as mad, if not
                        > madder.
                        >
                        > Sam Elliott
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ________________________________
                        > Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music
                        scene in your area - Check out TourTracker. com!
                        >
                      • keeno2@aol.com
                        In a message dated 7/12/2008 9:12:09 A.M. Central Daylight Time, carlw4514@yahoo.com writes: what happened there? This is off the top of my head so bear with
                        Message 11 of 28 , Jul 12, 2008
                          In a message dated 7/12/2008 9:12:09 A.M. Central Daylight Time, carlw4514@... writes:
                          what happened there?
                          This is off the top of my head so bear with me and ignore anything purported to be a fact. You'll recollect that Cump was a civilian out there, while Hooker was in command of something or another, but it appears that Hooker played somewhat fast and loose with Army funds and Cump, being civilian, couldn't mess with the doings. But he did know about it and presumably carried that with him to taint any possible relationship with Hooker.
                           
                          However, Hooker did a good job in the western theater and Sherman wasn't one to bite off his own foot. When it came time to name a replacement for McPherson, old memories came back with a vengeance. For anyone else at the time, Hooker deserved the spot. Not, understandably, to Sherman who simply never liked the man.
                           
                          ken




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                        • Jason van Teylingen
                          thanks for the explanation ... From: Tom Mix To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 11, 2008 5:00:30 PM Subject: RE:
                          Message 12 of 28 , Jul 12, 2008
                            thanks for the explanation

                            ----- Original Message ----
                            From: Tom Mix <tmix@...>
                            To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Friday, July 11, 2008 5:00:30 PM
                            Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Re: Was Logan dissed for higher command?

                            No, you are partially correct but it was Slocum who refused to server under Hooker.  He simply despised the man.  Hooker could tolerate Slocum but would never serve under him. Hooker had to learn to tolerate those who resented him since it was such a large club.  But his animosity toward Howard was justified as Howard had failed to bolster, heck, even make an effort, to build up a defensive position on the right flank of the Union Army at Chancellorsville.  Slocum’s animosity toward Hooker was just as justifiable. 

                            To pacify Slocum and keep him from resigning rather than server under Hooker, he was given command of the Vicksburg occupation and supply base where he was exceptional. Once Hooker left the army prior to Atlanta falling, Sherman quickly moved Slocum in where he rose to be Hooker’s number 2 man.  It was Slocum who first received the surrender of Atlanta and forwarded it on to Sherman’s HQ and it was Slocum who was the first Union force to enter Atlanta. Just after Atlanta Sherman divided his army into 2 separate army’s, confirmed by D.C. and used them as 2 independent wings under Sherman’s command. Slocum had one and Howard the other and Slocum performed excellently throughout the march to the sea and the fighting in the Carolina’s.  

                            Tom

                             

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:civilwarwes t@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Jason
                            Sent: Friday, July 11, 2008 4:22 PM
                            To: civilwarwest@ yahoogroupscom
                            Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Was Logan dissed for higher command?

                             

                            Wasn't Hooker pissed off about Slocum getting a command as well, or am I getting my facts screwed up?

                            ----- Original Message ----
                            From: "SDE80@..." <SDE80@...>
                            To: civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com
                            Sent: Friday, July 11, 2008 4:00:21 PM
                            Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Was Logan dissed for higher command?

                            In a message dated 7/11/2008 4:19:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, cvail19@yahoo. com writes:

                            Well everyone knows Hooker and Howard never saw eye to eye with each other. I think you can blame Chancelorsville on that one lols.

                            And I agree I think if Logan might have been give command of AOT, Hooker would have stayed in the war.

                             

                            Hooker got mad because Howard, a regular officer like him, was placed in command of the AotT, yet  he'd been OK with a non-professional volunteer being placed in command in his place?    I doubt it.   Probably would have made him much more upset.    Bottom line is that he was the senior of Sherman's corps commanders and had commanded an army once before.   Logan would have made him just as mad, if not madder.

                             

                            Sam Elliott




                            Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker. com!

                          • Tom Mix
                            You are more than welcome. I hope it helps. I actually wrote it and sent it on the 10th. It must have got held up some where. Tom ... From:
                            Message 13 of 28 , Jul 12, 2008

                              You are more than welcome.  I hope it helps.

                              I actually wrote it and sent it on the 10th. It must have got held up some where.

                              Tom

                               

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jason van Teylingen
                              Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 1:33 PM
                              To: civilwarwest@yahoogroupscom
                              Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Was Logan dissed for higher command?

                               

                              thanks for the explanation

                              ----- Original Message ----
                              From: Tom Mix <tmix@insightbb. com>
                              To: civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com
                              Sent: Friday, July 11, 2008 5:00:30 PM
                              Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Re: Was Logan dissed for higher command?

                              No, you are partially correct but it was Slocum who refused to server under Hooker.  He simply despised the man.  Hooker could tolerate Slocum but would never serve under him. Hooker had to learn to tolerate those who resented him since it was such a large club.  But his animosity toward Howard was justified as Howard had failed to bolster, heck, even make an effort, to build up a defensive position on the right flank of the Union Army at Chancellorsville.  Slocumʼs animosity toward Hooker was just as justifiable. 

                              To pacify Slocum and keep him from resigning rather than server under Hooker, he was given command of the Vicksburg occupation and supply base where he was exceptional. Once Hooker left the army prior to Atlanta falling, Sherman quickly moved Slocum in where he rose to be Hookerʼs number 2 man.  It was Slocum who first received the surrender of Atlanta and forwarded it on to Shermanʼs HQ and it was Slocum who was the first Union force to enter Atlanta. Just after Atlanta Sherman divided his army into 2 separate armyʼs, confirmed by D.C. and used them as 2 independent wings under Shermanʼs command. Slocum had one and Howard the other and Slocum performed excellently throughout the march to the sea and the fighting in the Carolinaʼs.  

                              Tom

                               

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:civilwarwes t@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Jason
                              Sent: Friday, July 11, 2008 4:22 PM
                              To: civilwarwest@ yahoogroupscom
                              Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Was Logan dissed for higher command?

                               

                              Wasn't Hooker pissed off about Slocum getting a command as well, or am I getting my facts screwed up?

                              ----- Original Message ----
                              From: "SDE80@..." <SDE80@...>
                              To: civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com
                              Sent: Friday, July 11, 2008 4:00:21 PM
                              Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Was Logan dissed for higher command?

                              In a message dated 7/11/2008 4:19:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, cvail19@yahoo. com writes:

                              Well everyone knows Hooker and Howard never saw eye to eye with each other. I think you can blame Chancelorsville on that one lols.

                              And I agree I think if Logan might have been give command of AOT, Hooker would have stayed in the war.

                               

                              Hooker got mad because Howard, a regular officer like him, was placed in command of the AotT, yet  he'd been OK with a non-professional volunteer being placed in command in his place?    I doubt it.   Probably would have made him much more upset.    Bottom line is that he was the senior of Sherman's corps commanders and had commanded an army once before.   Logan would have made him just as mad, if not madder.

                               

                              Sam Elliott

                               


                              Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker. com!

                            • Tom Mix
                              What you say is pretty spot on. Slocum did a commendable job at C ville but detested Hooker for a variety of reasons of which only some involved
                              Message 14 of 28 , Jul 12, 2008

                                What you say is pretty spot on. Slocum did a commendable job at C’ville but detested Hooker for a variety of reasons of which only some involved Chancellorsville.  A lot of personal conduct behaviors troubled Slocum plus he felt Hooker stabbed McClellan in the back to get Mac removed in favor of Burnside and later in favor of himself.  

                                Another reason for the promotion to replace Hooker in the west was that Slocum earned it.  Prior to his arrival in Vicksburg if was rife with corruption and Emancipation issues that Slocum cleaned up to the best of his ability given the situation and the limited time he was there.  The crooks were glad to see him leave.

                                As I mentioned earlier, Slocum did an excellent job when he commanded the new army/wing for Sherman.  

                                Tom

                                 

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of guitarmandanga
                                Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 9:40 AM
                                To: civilwarwest@yahoogroupscom
                                Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Was Logan dissed for higher command?

                                 

                                As far as I know, Hooker didn't blame Slocum for the outcome of
                                Chancellorsville as much as he blamed Howard (whom he considered to
                                be largely responsible for it). For his part though, Slocum
                                detested Hooker for seemingly slaughtering the XII Corps at C'ville
                                with little to show for it, and then abandoning the campaign. The
                                rancor on Slocum's part ran so deep that when the XII Corps was sent
                                with the XI Corps to help out at Chattanooga under Hooker's overall
                                commander, Slocum requested to be reassigned. So the War Department
                                promptly placed him in command of the Vicksburg garrison &
                                environs. It was only after Hooker resigned in protest over
                                Howard's promotion that Slocum was tapped to take command of
                                Hooker's XX Corps. More than likely that choice was based on the
                                fact that the XX Corps was in part composed of Slocum's former
                                command (the XI Corps) anyway, and he would have been the most
                                senior general in the immediate area. Of course, the fact that
                                Slocum was Hooker's enemy could be those who wanted to see it as yet
                                another slap in Hooker's face by Sherman & the War Department, one
                                last rubbing of salt in the wounds as it were.

                                --- In civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com, Jason <jvt1976@... > wrote:

                                >
                                > Wasn't Hooker pissed off about Slocum getting a command as well,
                                or am I getting my facts screwed up?
                                >
                                >
                                > ----- Original Message ----
                                > From: "SDE80@..." <SDE80@...>
                                > To: civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com
                                > Sent: Friday, July 11, 2008 4:00:21 PM
                                > Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Was Logan dissed for higher
                                command?
                                >
                                >
                                > In a message dated 7/11/2008 4:19:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                                > cvail19@yahoo. com writes:
                                > Well everyone knows Hooker and Howard never saw eye to eye with
                                each other. I think you can blame Chancelorsville on that one lols.
                                >
                                > And I agree I think if Logan might have been give command of AOT,
                                Hooker would have stayed in the war.
                                >
                                > Hooker got mad because Howard, a regular officer like him, was
                                placed in
                                > command of the AotT, yet he'd been OK with a non-professional
                                volunteer
                                > being placed in command in his place? I doubt it.
                                > Probably would have made him much more upset. Bottom line is
                                > that he was the senior of Sherman's corps commanders and had
                                commanded an army
                                > once before. Logan would have made him just as mad, if not
                                > madder.
                                >
                                > Sam Elliott
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ____________ _________ _________ __
                                > Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music
                                scene in your area - Check out TourTracker. com!
                                >

                              • Chadd Vail
                                Thanks for the information, this sheds some light for me on the Hooker Issue in the Altanta and Savannah Campaign. I totally appoligize for stealing the
                                Message 15 of 28 , Jul 12, 2008
                                  Thanks for the information, this sheds some light for me on the Hooker Issue in the Altanta and Savannah Campaign. I totally appoligize for stealing the thunder from the original post which delt with Logan.

                                  Chadd M. Vail



                                  --- On Sat, 7/12/08, Tom Mix <tmix@...> wrote:

                                  > From: Tom Mix <tmix@...>
                                  > Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Re: Was Logan dissed for higher command?
                                  > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Date: Saturday, July 12, 2008, 6:56 PM
                                  > What you say is pretty spot on. Slocum did a commendable job
                                  > at C'ville but
                                  > detested Hooker for a variety of reasons of which only some
                                  > involved
                                  > Chancellorsville. A lot of personal conduct behaviors
                                  > troubled Slocum plus
                                  > he felt Hooker stabbed McClellan in the back to get Mac
                                  > removed in favor of
                                  > Burnside and later in favor of himself.
                                  >
                                  > Another reason for the promotion to replace Hooker in the
                                  > west was that
                                  > Slocum earned it. Prior to his arrival in Vicksburg if was
                                  > rife with
                                  > corruption and Emancipation issues that Slocum cleaned up
                                  > to the best of his
                                  > ability given the situation and the limited time he was
                                  > there. The crooks
                                  > were glad to see him leave.
                                  >
                                  > As I mentioned earlier, Slocum did an excellent job when he
                                  > commanded the
                                  > new army/wing for Sherman.
                                  >
                                  > Tom
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                  > From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                  > [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On
                                  > Behalf Of guitarmandanga
                                  > Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 9:40 AM
                                  > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Was Logan dissed for higher
                                  > command?
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > As far as I know, Hooker didn't blame Slocum for the
                                  > outcome of
                                  > Chancellorsville as much as he blamed Howard (whom he
                                  > considered to
                                  > be largely responsible for it). For his part though, Slocum
                                  >
                                  > detested Hooker for seemingly slaughtering the XII Corps at
                                  > C'ville
                                  > with little to show for it, and then abandoning the
                                  > campaign. The
                                  > rancor on Slocum's part ran so deep that when the XII
                                  > Corps was sent
                                  > with the XI Corps to help out at Chattanooga under
                                  > Hooker's overall
                                  > commander, Slocum requested to be reassigned. So the War
                                  > Department
                                  > promptly placed him in command of the Vicksburg garrison
                                  > &
                                  > environs. It was only after Hooker resigned in protest over
                                  >
                                  > Howard's promotion that Slocum was tapped to take
                                  > command of
                                  > Hooker's XX Corps. More than likely that choice was
                                  > based on the
                                  > fact that the XX Corps was in part composed of Slocum's
                                  > former
                                  > command (the XI Corps) anyway, and he would have been the
                                  > most
                                  > senior general in the immediate area. Of course, the fact
                                  > that
                                  > Slocum was Hooker's enemy could be those who wanted to
                                  > see it as yet
                                  > another slap in Hooker's face by Sherman & the War
                                  > Department, one
                                  > last rubbing of salt in the wounds as it were.
                                  >
                                  > --- In civilwarwest@
                                  > <mailto:civilwarwest%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  > yahoogroups.com, Jason <jvt1976@...> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Wasn't Hooker pissed off about Slocum getting a
                                  > command as well,
                                  > or am I getting my facts screwed up?
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > ----- Original Message ----
                                  > > From: "SDE80@..." <SDE80@...>
                                  > > To: civilwarwest@
                                  > <mailto:civilwarwest%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  > yahoogroups.com
                                  > > Sent: Friday, July 11, 2008 4:00:21 PM
                                  > > Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Was Logan dissed for
                                  > higher
                                  > command?
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > In a message dated 7/11/2008 4:19:30 P.M. Eastern
                                  > Standard Time,
                                  > > cvail19@yahoo. com writes:
                                  > > Well everyone knows Hooker and Howard never saw eye to
                                  > eye with
                                  > each other. I think you can blame Chancelorsville on that
                                  > one lols.
                                  > >
                                  > > And I agree I think if Logan might have been give
                                  > command of AOT,
                                  > Hooker would have stayed in the war.
                                  > >
                                  > > Hooker got mad because Howard, a regular officer like
                                  > him, was
                                  > placed in
                                  > > command of the AotT, yet he'd been OK with a
                                  > non-professional
                                  > volunteer
                                  > > being placed in command in his place? I doubt it.
                                  > > Probably would have made him much more upset. Bottom
                                  > line is
                                  > > that he was the senior of Sherman's corps
                                  > commanders and had
                                  > commanded an army
                                  > > once before. Logan would have made him just as mad, if
                                  > not
                                  > > madder.
                                  > >
                                  > > Sam Elliott
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > ________________________________
                                  > > Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and
                                  > the live music
                                  > scene in your area - Check out TourTracker. com!
                                  > >
                                • Tom Mix
                                  No problem. Free discussion of topics should always be welcome. And it is a good question and subject. Tom ... From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Jul 12, 2008

                                    No problem. Free discussion of topics should always be welcome.  And it is a good question and subject. 

                                    Tom

                                     

                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Chadd Vail
                                    Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 7:52 PM
                                    To: civilwarwest@yahoogroupscom
                                    Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Re: Was Logan dissed for higher command?

                                     

                                    Thanks for the information, this sheds some light for me on the Hooker Issue in the Altanta and Savannah Campaign. I totally appoligize for stealing the thunder from the original post which delt with Logan.

                                    Chadd M. Vail

                                    --- On Sat, 7/12/08, Tom Mix <tmix@insightbb. com> wrote:

                                    > From: Tom Mix <tmix@insightbb. com>
                                    > Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Re: Was Logan dissed for higher command?
                                    > To: civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com
                                    > Date: Saturday, July 12, 2008, 6:56 PM
                                    > What you say is pretty spot on. Slocum did a commendable job
                                    > at C'ville but
                                    > detested Hooker for a variety of reasons of which only some
                                    > involved
                                    > Chancellorsville. A lot of personal conduct behaviors
                                    > troubled Slocum plus
                                    > he felt Hooker stabbed McClellan in the back to get Mac
                                    > removed in favor of
                                    > Burnside and later in favor of himself.
                                    >
                                    > Another reason for the promotion to replace Hooker in the
                                    > west was that
                                    > Slocum earned it. Prior to his arrival in Vicksburg if was
                                    > rife with
                                    > corruption and Emancipation issues that Slocum cleaned up
                                    > to the best of his
                                    > ability given the situation and the limited time he was
                                    > there. The crooks
                                    > were glad to see him leave.
                                    >
                                    > As I mentioned earlier, Slocum did an excellent job when he
                                    > commanded the
                                    > new army/wing for Sherman.
                                    >
                                    > Tom
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                    > From: civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com
                                    > [mailto:civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com]
                                    On
                                    > Behalf Of guitarmandanga
                                    > Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 9:40 AM
                                    > To: civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com
                                    > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Was Logan dissed for higher
                                    > command?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > As far as I know, Hooker didn't blame Slocum for the
                                    > outcome of
                                    > Chancellorsville as much as he blamed Howard (whom he
                                    > considered to
                                    > be largely responsible for it). For his part though, Slocum
                                    >
                                    > detested Hooker for seemingly slaughtering the XII Corps at
                                    > C'ville
                                    > with little to show for it, and then abandoning the
                                    > campaign. The
                                    > rancor on Slocum's part ran so deep that when the XII
                                    > Corps was sent
                                    > with the XI Corps to help out at Chattanooga under
                                    > Hooker's overall
                                    > commander, Slocum requested to be reassigned. So the War
                                    > Department
                                    > promptly placed him in command of the Vicksburg garrison
                                    > &
                                    > environs. It was only after Hooker resigned in protest over
                                    >
                                    > Howard's promotion that Slocum was tapped to take
                                    > command of
                                    > Hooker's XX Corps. More than likely that choice was
                                    > based on the
                                    > fact that the XX Corps was in part composed of Slocum's
                                    > former
                                    > command (the XI Corps) anyway, and he would have been the
                                    > most
                                    > senior general in the immediate area. Of course, the fact
                                    > that
                                    > Slocum was Hooker's enemy could be those who wanted to
                                    > see it as yet
                                    > another slap in Hooker's face by Sherman & the War
                                    > Department, one
                                    > last rubbing of salt in the wounds as it were.
                                    >
                                    > --- In civilwarwest@
                                    > <mailto:civilwarwes t%40yahoogroups. com>
                                    > yahoogroups. com, Jason <jvt1976@... > wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Wasn't Hooker pissed off about Slocum getting a
                                    > command as well,
                                    > or am I getting my facts screwed up?
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > ----- Original Message ----
                                    > > From: "SDE80@..." <SDE80@...>
                                    > > To: civilwarwest@
                                    > <mailto:civilwarwes t%40yahoogroups. com>
                                    > yahoogroups. com
                                    > > Sent: Friday, July 11, 2008 4:00:21 PM
                                    > > Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Was Logan dissed for
                                    > higher
                                    > command?
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > In a message dated 7/11/2008 4:19:30 P.M. Eastern
                                    > Standard Time,
                                    > > cvail19@yahoo. com writes:
                                    > > Well everyone knows Hooker and Howard never saw eye to
                                    > eye with
                                    > each other. I think you can blame Chancelorsville on that
                                    > one lols.
                                    > >
                                    > > And I agree I think if Logan might have been give
                                    > command of AOT,
                                    > Hooker would have stayed in the war.
                                    > >
                                    > > Hooker got mad because Howard, a regular officer like
                                    > him, was
                                    > placed in
                                    > > command of the AotT, yet he'd been OK with a
                                    > non-professional
                                    > volunteer
                                    > > being placed in command in his place? I doubt it.
                                    > > Probably would have made him much more upset. Bottom
                                    > line is
                                    > > that he was the senior of Sherman's corps
                                    > commanders and had
                                    > commanded an army
                                    > > once before. Logan would have made him just as mad, if
                                    > not
                                    > > madder.
                                    > >
                                    > > Sam Elliott
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > ____________ _________ _________ __
                                    > > Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and
                                    > the live music
                                    > scene in your area - Check out TourTracker. com!
                                    > >

                                  • Carl Williams
                                    I certainly felt I should not give the answer to this, since I was involved the first time the question came up in our little group. No one else has answered,
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Jul 15, 2008
                                      I certainly felt I should not give the answer to this, since I was
                                      involved the first time the question came up in our little group. No
                                      one else has answered, I see, but then again the question is phrased a
                                      little cryptically.

                                      Here's a hint: Mark Twain wrote that novel.

                                      --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Huddleston"
                                      <huddleston.r@...> wrote:

                                      [...]

                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Ironically (and I say this as a Black Jack Fan) after Sherman passed him
                                      > over for command of the AotT, arguing that Logan was too political,
                                      Black
                                      > Jack promptly took leave and went back to Illinois to campaign!
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Question for the day: what is Logan's connection to the greatest
                                      American
                                      > novel?
                                    • Tony Gunter
                                      ... in ... From the moment he picked up a musket and fought as a citizen at First Bull Run, Logan was sold on military life. He loved being in the field and
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Jul 15, 2008
                                        --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Williams" <carlw4514@...>
                                        wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Finished the book "Black Jack: John A. Logan and Southern Illinois
                                        in
                                        > the Civil War Era" I Recommend it.
                                        >
                                        > The author discusses whether Logan was unjustly passed over as a
                                        > replacement for McPherson when he was KIA. Interestingly, he gave
                                        > Sherman's views on what he didnt like about "political generals."
                                        > Seems that there is more to it than unthinking prejudice. I
                                        > loaned the book to someone, so can't quote from it, but
                                        > basically Sherman just felt that these guys typically just weren't
                                        > full time. He was especially resentful when they would go
                                        > home to campaign for reelection just as things were critical
                                        > in the field.

                                        From the moment he picked up a musket and fought as a citizen at
                                        First Bull Run, Logan was sold on military life. He loved being in
                                        the field and would have remained in the field. It was only a direct
                                        request from the POTUS himself that sent Logan home to campaign.

                                        I think there's a lot of smoke and misdirection when it comes to
                                        Sherman's decision ... didn't Sherman blame it on Thomas? Another
                                        Sherman correspondence, IIRC, claimed that Logan didn't pay close
                                        enough attention to logistics. I'm not sure I have ever seen an
                                        analysis that supports any of these assertions sufficiently.

                                        Just my opinion, I believe Logan was mentored by the best in the
                                        business (McPherson) and deserved a shot at army command.
                                      • Harry Smeltzer
                                        In the interest of full disclosure, Logan fought at Blackburn s Ford on July 19, two days before First Bull Run. He helped evacuate wounded from that affair
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Jul 15, 2008

                                          In the interest of full disclosure, Logan fought at Blackburn’s Ford on July 19, two days before First Bull Run.  He helped evacuate wounded from that affair and was in in Washington on the 21st.  You can read about it here:

                                          http://bullrunnings.wordpress.com/2007/04/19/ecelbarger-on-logan/

                                          Harry

                                          -----Original Message-----
                                          From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tony Gunter
                                          Sent:
                                          Tuesday, July 15, 2008 10:39 AM
                                          To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Was Logan dissed for higher command?

                                           

                                          --- In civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com, "Carl Williams" <carlw4514@. ..>
                                          wrote:

                                          >
                                          > Finished the book "Black Jack: John A. Logan and Southern Illinois
                                          in
                                          > the Civil War Era" I Recommend it.
                                          >
                                          > The author discusses whether Logan was unjustly passed over as a
                                          > replacement for McPherson when he was KIA. Interestingly, he gave
                                          > Sherman's views on what he didnt like about "political
                                          generals."
                                          > Seems that there is more to it than unthinking prejudice. I
                                          > loaned the book to someone, so can't quote from it, but
                                          > basically Sherman just felt that these guys typically just weren't
                                          > full time. He was especially resentful when they would go
                                          > home to campaign for reelection just as things were critical
                                          > in the field.

                                          From the moment he picked up a musket and fought as a citizen at
                                          First Bull Run, Logan was sold on military life. He loved being in
                                          the field and would have remained in the field. It was only a direct
                                          request from the POTUS himself that sent Logan home to campaign.

                                          I think there's a lot of smoke and misdirection when it comes to
                                          Sherman's decision ... didn't Sherman blame it on Thomas? Another
                                          Sherman correspondence, IIRC, claimed that Logan didn't pay close
                                          enough attention to logistics. I'm not sure I have ever seen an
                                          analysis that supports any of these assertions sufficiently.

                                          Just my opinion, I believe Logan was mentored by the best in the
                                          business (McPherson) and deserved a shot at army command.

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