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Civil War Movies (was Chickamauga -- the Movie)

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  • ks
    First, it would be much appreciated if participants would change the subjects on threads as the topics within the threads take new direction. Secondly, you are
    Message 1 of 29 , Dec 27, 2007
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      First, it would be much appreciated if participants would change the subjects on threads as the topics within the threads take new direction.
       
      Secondly, you are certainly entitled to your opinions, and so are we all.  :) 
       
      I agree that Gods & Generals was an awful movie.  I so badly wanted it to be good, but it lost me after that (IMO) wonderful beginning with the flags flapping in the breeze and, as I recall, lovely music playing in the background.  After that it became the St. Stonewall story and bore little resemblance to the Shaara book which I'd read and enjoyed.  Darned shame.  Relatives (thinking I'd enjoyed the film) purchased a DVD copy for me the moment it became available.  It still sits on the shelf with shrink wrap intact.  ** An aside to chatroom participants...Would anyone pick it up on the exchange table at muster??
       
      I disagree with you about Maxwell's other film, Gettysburg.  I thought it was true to the book and an effective film.  The bad beards, tubby reenactors **add here all of the complaints we've seen in chatroom and discussion boards over the years** didn't prevent that film from affecting me in such a way that I wanted to learn more about the war.  I'm one of the many who were caught in and reeled in by the nets cast by the Ken Burns documentary and THE MOVIE, Gettysburg.  I know I'm not unique in that I've participated in and moderated CW boards and chatrooms for more than 10 years, and countless times I've heard from others that what brought them to an interest in the CW were those two on-screen experiences.  Could either have been better?  Most assuredly.  Did Gettysburg  turn people away from interest in the war?  Obviously, in countless cases as evidenced by the exchanges I've witnessed over the years, it did not.  For many of us both films entertained, gave the war modern relevance and stimulated a desire to read more books and actually set foot on CW battlefields.  For that, I am very grateful.
       
      Now as for a film being made on Chickamauga, I'd love to see that effort be made.  I can't say I expect it, especially after the mess made with Gods & Generals.  But it's a compelling story, as would be the account of the battle at Franklin.  Don't others expect The Widow of the South to be made into a movie?
       
      Respectfully,
       
      Pat
       
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 1:01 PM
      Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Chickamauga -- the Movie

      *snipping irrelevant material*

      G&G died at the box office because it is a terrible movie.
      even cable, which will show just about anything, shuns it.
      it appeals to a small segment of lost causers,those who equate the
      confederacy with being a holy endeaver sanctioned by jesus.

      both movies were badly done, the acting atrocious,the scripts worse
      and the action lacking in any dramatic tension.{how did they ever
      manage to make pckets charge boring???}

      those two movies undid all that the movie glory did for the civil
      war, that is give it life and relevence to modern audiences.

      post ken burns there was a real interest in the war, war movies in
      general do pretty good, G-burg and especially G&G blew that apart.

      turner took such a bath on G&G that he will never try again.

      .

    • Sweetsstar@aol.com
      Pat, I just watched Gettysburg again the other night. I hadn t seen it in a long time and not since I have joined the muster group and other groups and
      Message 2 of 29 , Dec 27, 2007
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        Pat, I just watched Gettysburg again the other night.  I hadn't seen it in a long time and not since I have joined the muster group and other groups and gained a better knowledge of the battle.  Yes the beards are bad, yes, the reenactors (read Confederates) are larger than they would have been this far into the war, but still the movie touched me.  Now I was watching it with foreshadowing.  I read so much more into each scene as I actually knew more about what was happening.  I still really enjoyed it .  Plan to watch it again in a few months.   Not many movies I watch over again . 
         
        I think to blame the Maxwell movies for not having anymore Civil War movies is wrong.  I think it is more a matter of cost for such large scale movies  I know there are many WW2 movies being made but seems right now that is where the interest is.  For any war movie you need troops, and equipment.  That adds to the cost of the film. 
         
        As to making of Widow of the South I am looking forward to it as long as Nicole Kidman does not play Carrie.  Not sure who I would cast but anyone but Kidman.  Cold Mountain was good til after the Battle of the Crater .  Then I lost interest.  Even Renee could not save it for me.  I liked her in the movie . 
         
        Back to Gettysburg , it was so much better than any previous films made with Civil War theme.  My book group does a movie theme discussion in December.  We share with each other films that no matter how thin the relationship have something to do with the Civil War.  In the four years I have been involved with this group I have seen clips from some pretty bad Civil War themed movies.  This year we watched the Battle of Glorietta Pass from the Good , the Bad & the Ugly.  Talk about not having anything to do with the real story.  We were hooting and talking back to the sceen.   Then there is Santa Fe Trail with Ronald Regan and Earl Flynn.  I never knew that Jeb Stuart and Custer went to West Point together .  Interesting as there was at least ten years difference in their ages. That is only one of the "mistakes" in the film. 
         
        People said the western is dead a few years ago but look at what happened this past year.  3;10 to Yuma , and Dirty Little Coward that Shot Mister Howard.  both have done well.  3:10 better than the Jesse James movie .   As we approach the celebrations of the anniversary of Lincoln's birth and the 150 Civil War  I would bet more movies appear again. 
         
        Pat, I tried to watch Gods and Generals again after I think you mentioned the opening flags and music, one night in chat.  That is as far as I got.  BUT that opening is worth seeing .  It is amazing.  So even Gods and Generals has some worth. 
         
        Just my opinion for what ever it is worth.  I am sure I will not agree with eveyone.  Oh well. 
        Susan



      • raymondohara
        ... the subjects on threads as the topics within the threads take new direction. ... we all. :) ken burns certainly sparked interest in the CW. for a few
        Message 3 of 29 , Dec 27, 2007
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          --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "ks" <ks@...> wrote:
          >
          > First, it would be much appreciated if participants would change
          the subjects on threads as the topics within the threads take new
          direction.
          >
          > Secondly, you are certainly entitled to your opinions, and so are
          we all. :)

          ken burns certainly sparked interest in the CW. for a few years after
          the battlefield park at gettysburg was certainly crowded and
          roundtables popped up everywhere.

          most of the sites though remained obscure.
          places like cold harbor remained tourist free.
          any complaints with burns stem from his desire to tell a story over
          telling history. and it annoyed me how he acted like he "discovered"
          what were well known events. {his WWII was worse}
          but anything that sparks interest in our nations history is good.

          after burns co-workers who had thought i was some sort of a nut for
          taking vactions and driving from boston to the mississippi to visit
          places began asking me to lend them books.


          gettysburg did remain faithful to the book killer angels, but all
          the book did was take real people and had then do what they did in
          real life. but while the book brought things to life better than a
          regular history but the movie lacked the life of the book.

          if you are ever in brunswick maine, be sure to visir
          j.l.chamberlain's home and see the misfired pistol.
        • ks
          Susan, Your email brings to mind an incident that took place when my children were quite young. I was very taken with THE MOVIE and was watching it again one
          Message 4 of 29 , Dec 27, 2007
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            Susan,
             
            Your email brings to mind an incident that took place when my children were quite young.  I was very taken with THE MOVIE and was watching it again one afternoon with my children, then ages 10, 7 and 4.  The kids watched intently and asked numerous questions.  But I was most surprised with the question voiced at the conclusion of the film.  Through tears they asked "But Momma, who were the bad guys?"  That generated a pretty wonderful discussion as well as the desire for some CW related books that were age appropriate.  In subsequent years, all three were excited to be able to actually visit Gettysburg National Military Park and walk Pickett's Charge, stand on Little Round Top, have pictures taken at The Angle, etc.  Even better, they did so in the company of three wonderful students of the war who they'd come to know through "Mom's Civil War Chatroom".  shotgun, Buckshot and Korky were our guides and I believe they'd all agree that the kids were interested and animated that day as well as on the many other trips they've made to CW sites since then.  They enjoyed the years they put in doing living history at Fort Scott National Historic site, especially the CW and Bleeding Kansas related events.  If you were to ask any of my children what led to their interest in the war, I know they'd all be mentioning the Turner film along with Burns and "Mom's chatroom friends". 
             
            BTW I just looked at the Internet Movie Data Base wondering what rating was shown for Gettysburg.  7.6 out of 10 isn't bad.  And the Critics Tomatometer on rottentomatoes.com gives it an 87% on the Fresh meter.  You see?  We who like the movie have plenty of company.  ;)
             
            Thanks for the nudge down memory lane.
             
            Pat
             
            P.S.  Yes, I realize that this is discussion of a movie on an EASTERN theater event. 
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2007 1:29 PM
            Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Civil War Movies (was Chickamauga -- the Movie)

            Pat, I just watched Gettysburg again the other night.  I hadn't seen it in a long time and not since I have joined the muster group and other groups and gained a better knowledge of the battle.  Yes the beards are bad, yes, the reenactors (read Confederates) are larger than they would have been this far into the war, but still the movie touched me.  Now I was watching it with foreshadowing.  I read so much more into each scene as I actually knew more about what was happening.  I still really enjoyed it .  Plan to watch it again in a few months.   Not many movies I watch over again . 
             
             *Major snip again to shorten the email*
             
            Just my opinion for what ever it is worth.  I am sure I will not agree with eveyone.  Oh well. 
             
            Susan

            .

          • raymondohara
            ... seen it in a ... groups and ... yes, the ... been this far ... it with ... knew more about ... it again in a ... War movies ... scale movies I ...
            Message 5 of 29 , Dec 27, 2007
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              --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, Sweetsstar@... wrote:
              >
              > Pat, I just watched Gettysburg again the other night. I hadn't
              seen it in a
              > long time and not since I have joined the muster group and other
              groups and
              > gained a better knowledge of the battle. Yes the beards are bad,
              yes, the
              > reenactors (read Confederates) are larger than they would have
              been this far
              > into the war, but still the movie touched me. Now I was watching
              it with
              > foreshadowing. I read so much more into each scene as I actually
              knew more about
              > what was happening. I still really enjoyed it . Plan to watch
              it again in a
              > few months. Not many movies I watch over again .
              >
              > I think to blame the Maxwell movies for not having anymore Civil
              War movies
              > is wrong. I think it is more a matter of cost for such large
              scale movies I
              > know there are many WW2 movies being made but seems right now
              that is where
              > the interest is. For any war movie you need troops, and
              equipment. That
              > adds to the cost of the film.


              the renactors were the same for both union and confederate.
              they filmed them on different days, watch for the one guy with an
              eye patchm, he's shown during the picket's charge sequence,
              he,s from vermont and is normally a union reenactor.
              the directors told the re-enactors not to wear anything personally
              distiguishing but he got around that by wearing an eyepatch, just to
              be safe he kept it on through the filming so the directors thought
              he really needed it.

              the union guys back then were tough wirey guys too. and generally
              younger than your average reenactor

              as to costs, both gettysburg and G&G saved money on the fact the re-
              enactors worked free and they came i full "costume".
              when one sees the udgets for other movies i can't see cost as much
              of a factor. and they certainly went whole hog with the sets for
              glory building a full sized replica of fort moultrie and for the
              crater scene in cold mt.

              what hollywood wants is a compelling story inside the larger story.
              a good tv mini series abour u.s.grant might work.
            • Sweetsstar@aol.com
              In a message dated 12/27/2007 12:17:00 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, raymond-ohara@hotmail.com writes: crater scene in cold mt. The Crater scene in Cold
              Message 6 of 29 , Dec 27, 2007
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                In a message dated 12/27/2007 12:17:00 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, raymond-ohara@... writes:
                crater scene in cold mt.

                The Crater scene in Cold Mountain was built in Rumania which makes it a whole lot cheaper to build than sets in the states .  I do admit Glory was filmed on location at Jeylk Isand and Savannah among other places. 
                 
                when one sees the udgets for other movies i can't see cost as much
                of a factor
                  Cost is always a bottom line .  Budgets always count. 
                 
                Susan



              • keeno2@aol.com
                In a message dated 12/27/2007 2:17:01 P.M. Central Standard Time, raymond-ohara@hotmail.com writes: what hollywood wants is a compelling story inside the
                Message 7 of 29 , Dec 27, 2007
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                  In a message dated 12/27/2007 2:17:01 P.M. Central Standard Time, raymond-ohara@... writes:
                  what hollywood wants is a compelling story inside the larger story. a good tv mini series abour u.s.grant might work.
                  Or Sherman. Or Lee. Maybe and Sherman and Lee. Great idea!
                   
                  ken

                   
                   



                • Sweetsstar@aol.com
                  In a message dated 12/27/2007 12:17:00 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, raymond-ohara@hotmail.com writes: what hollywood wants is a compelling story inside the
                  Message 8 of 29 , Dec 27, 2007
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                    In a message dated 12/27/2007 12:17:00 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, raymond-ohara@... writes:
                    what hollywood wants is a compelling story inside the larger story.
                    Well gee don't we all want a good story?  I am not about to go see a movie or read a book that doesn't grab me with a good story. 
                    Susan



                  • raymondohara
                    ... children were quite young. back in the 80s i was at vicksburg. there were two families together with kids around 6-10. one set of parents was letting
                    Message 9 of 29 , Dec 27, 2007
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                      --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "ks" <ks@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Susan,
                      >
                      > Your email brings to mind an incident that took place when my
                      children were quite young.


                      back in the 80s i was at vicksburg.
                      there were two families together with kids around 6-10.
                      one set of parents was letting theirs run free and poke around, the
                      other kept their kids in check{you could tell they were strict,i
                      instantly hated the mother} those kids saw their friends running
                      amuck and whished to join them but mom would yell at them and made
                      they stay right by her side, you could see they were having a
                      terrible time and i'm sure they hate the civil war and battlefields
                      to this day.

                      i also learned that day that when kids from different families are
                      involved to make sure the ground rules are established so that all
                      the kids are under the same restrictions. whether they are all to be
                      curbed or allowed to run amuck. it must be the same for all.
                      nothing is worse for a kid than to see his friends having fun and he
                      can't. it causes no end of trouble.



                      i was lucky in that my parents took me to historic places in the 60s
                      when i was a kid and they let me poke around and they were
                      interested too. kids will pick up on their folks attitude.
                    • raymondohara
                      ... a movie ... yes, but in the two turner movies they cast the net too wide. in glory they just kept the focus on a few characters. gettysburg would have
                      Message 10 of 29 , Dec 27, 2007
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                        --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, Sweetsstar@... wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > In a message dated 12/27/2007 12:17:00 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
                        > raymond-ohara@... writes:
                        >
                        > what hollywood wants is a compelling story inside the larger story.
                        >
                        >
                        > Well gee don't we all want a good story? I am not about to go see
                        a movie
                        > or read a book that doesn't grab me with a good story.
                        > Susan
                        >
                        >
                        yes, but in the two turner movies they cast the net too wide.
                        in glory they just kept the focus on a few characters.
                        gettysburg would have been better to have just kept its focus on JLC
                        and worked around that as a central theme.

                        raphael semmes and the hunt for him would make an excellent topic for
                        a movie.

                        G&G took on too much and what became of antietam?, it skips right past
                        it
                      • Sweetsstar@aol.com
                        In a message dated 12/27/2007 1:00:18 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, raymond-ohara@hotmail.com writes: make sure the ground rules are established so that all the
                        Message 11 of 29 , Dec 27, 2007
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                          In a message dated 12/27/2007 1:00:18 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, raymond-ohara@... writes:
                          make sure the ground rules are established so that all
                          the kids are under the same restrictions. whether they are all to be
                          curbed or allowed to run amuck. it must be the same for all.
                          Considering I taught grade school for 34 years I am sorry but I cannot agree with you on this point.  I can't tell you how many times in my travels I have wanted to go over to children allowed to run amuck at historical sites and talk to them about proper behavior.  There is a happy medium between running amuck and not being allowed to leave mothers side.  Proper respect for the place they are visiting should be taught.  I have friends on various boards who talk about taking their kids to visit historical sites.  I cannot see any of them allowing their kids to run amuck even if every other child was allowed to do that very thing.   You might be wrong about those children that didn't leave their mother's side. 
                           
                          My father took me to many places to visit. There were rules.   I still remember the whap of the flag stick in the cemetery when I was a child helping my Dad ,an American Legionnaire place flags on graves for Memorial Day.  I had been running around in the cemetery being really disrespectful to the men who were buried there.  Daddy came up behind me as I was running in between the graves and gave me a lick with the flag in his hand .  Now rest assured my father was not a child abuser in any way shape or form.  He only spanked me five times in my life and each one was for a major reason.  Two of them were in public for misbehaving , not following his rules. 
                           
                          I don't think the children that ran amuck that day you observed learn anything about the place they were visiting .  It was just another place to act out. 
                           
                          Children need to be taught proper behavior. 
                          Susan



                        • Ronald black
                          Civil War Movies? Gettysburg, the movie was very good and the music was excellent. Gods and General was not good. GD skipped around and tried to cover too
                          Message 12 of 29 , Dec 27, 2007
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                            Civil War Movies?  Gettysburg, the movie was very good and the music was excellent.  Gods and General was not good.  GD skipped around and tried to cover too much time and events.  Glory was excellent specially the background music.  Did anybody notice that the Brooklyn Boy's Choir sang on the music track of the movie and they were very good.  On the music CD, they are not on it, WHY?
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: ks
                            Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2007 1:23 PM
                            Subject: [civilwarwest] Civil War Movies (was Chickamauga -- the Movie)

                            First, it would be much appreciated if participants would change the subjects on threads as the topics within the threads take new direction.
                             
                            Secondly, you are certainly entitled to your opinions, and so are we all.  :) 
                             
                            I agree that Gods & Generals was an awful movie.  I so badly wanted it to be good, but it lost me after that (IMO) wonderful beginning with the flags flapping in the breeze and, as I recall, lovely music playing in the background.  After that it became the St. Stonewall story and bore little resemblance to the Shaara book which I'd read and enjoyed.  Darned shame.  Relatives (thinking I'd enjoyed the film) purchased a DVD copy for me the moment it became available.  It still sits on the shelf with shrink wrap intact.  ** An aside to chatroom participants. ..Would anyone pick it up on the exchange table at muster??
                             
                            I disagree with you about Maxwell's other film, Gettysburg.  I thought it was true to the book and an effective film.  The bad beards, tubby reenactors **add here all of the complaints we've seen in chatroom and discussion boards over the years** didn't prevent that film from affecting me in such a way that I wanted to learn more about the war.  I'm one of the many who were caught in and reeled in by the nets cast by the Ken Burns documentary and THE MOVIE, Gettysburg.  I know I'm not unique in that I've participated in and moderated CW boards and chatrooms for more than 10 years, and countless times I've heard from others that what brought them to an interest in the CW were those two on-screen experiences.  Could either have been better?  Most assuredly.  Did Gettysburg  turn people away from interest in the war?  Obviously, in countless cases as evidenced by the exchanges I've witnessed over the years, it did not.  For many of us both films entertained, gave the war modern relevance and stimulated a desire to read more books and actually set foot on CW battlefields.  For that, I am very grateful.
                             
                            Now as for a film being made on Chickamauga, I'd love to see that effort be made.  I can't say I expect it, especially after the mess made with Gods & Generals.  But it's a compelling story, as would be the account of the battle at Franklin.  Don't others expect The Widow of the South to be made into a movie?
                             
                            Respectfully,
                             
                            Pat
                             
                             
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 1:01 PM
                            Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Chickamauga -- the Movie

                            *snipping irrelevant material*

                            G&G died at the box office because it is a terrible movie.
                            even cable, which will show just about anything, shuns it.
                            it appeals to a small segment of lost causers,those who equate the
                            confederacy with being a holy endeaver sanctioned by jesus.

                            both movies were badly done, the acting atrocious,the scripts worse
                            and the action lacking in any dramatic tension.{how did they ever
                            manage to make pckets charge boring???}

                            those two movies undid all that the movie glory did for the civil
                            war, that is give it life and relevence to modern audiences.

                            post ken burns there was a real interest in the war, war movies in
                            general do pretty good, G-burg and especially G&G blew that apart.

                            turner took such a bath on G&G that he will never try again.

                            .


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                          • raymondohara
                            ... music was excellent. Gods and General was not good. GD skipped around and tried to cover too much time and events. Glory was excellent specially the
                            Message 13 of 29 , Dec 27, 2007
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                              --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Ronald black" <rblack0981@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > Civil War Movies? Gettysburg, the movie was very good and the
                              music was excellent. Gods and General was not good. GD skipped
                              around and tried to cover too much time and events. Glory was
                              excellent specially the background music. Did anybody notice that
                              the Brooklyn Boy's Choir sang on the music track of the movie and
                              they were very good. On the music CD, they are not on it, WHY?

                              the sound track was what i disliked most about gettysburg.
                              it was overly loud and intrusive.
                              it tried to hard to add drama to flat scenes and it overwhelmed them



                              there is no scene in either g-burg or G&G that comes near the simple
                              emotion and power of the pre-battle prayer scene when the men of
                              the 54th are singing that spiritual and each in turn leading the
                              prayers. and the look on andre braugher's face as he realized he
                              knew nothing of the culture of his fellows.
                              that scene alone was worth an oscar.
                            • DORR64OVI@aol.com
                              Dont hold your breath waiting for Ted Turner to front any more cash for CW movies. Ron Maxwell used about 90 million of Teds wad to make GAG and it was so
                              Message 14 of 29 , Dec 27, 2007
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                                Dont hold your breath waiting for Ted Turner to front any more cash for CW movies.  Ron Maxwell used about 90 million of Teds wad to make GAG and it was so bad it only made 12 million back at the box office.  Do the math and its easy to see why Ted and others wont be financing CW epics anymore.
                                   Ron's Gettysburg focused on one battle.  In GAG, Ron tried to cover the first half of the war in the East while portraying Stonewall as Christ in butternut.  Now a film about Jackson would be interesting in itself.  But I never did understand why Ron decided to then waste an hour of film time on the battle of Fredericksburg, a battle old Jack wasn't a big part of.  Then we get a half-assed version of Chancellorsville with Jackson and staff riding thru a reenactment camp like something out of the Magnificent 7.  Horrible stuff.
                                    I knew the movie was going to be bad when one of the first scenes (after the great opening flags sequences) is about Bob Lee turning down command of the Federal forces.  Duvall is great as Lee but someone didn't bother to do their homework as he has a beard.  Unfortunately REL didn't grow his whiskers until later in the war.  It went downhill from there.
                                    Another point to remember.  Ron decided that his movie should be nearly 4 hours with an intermission.  Did he not realize that theater owners hate extra long movies because for the length of time GAG ran, they could've sold the theater twice.  They couldn't get rid of GAG fast enough.  Its amazing to me that Ron Maxwell was the one guy making epic CW movies and he destroyed his own franchise.
                                 
                                Kent Dorr



                              • ks
                                Oh, my. Couldn t disagree with you more. I loved the ST and purchased it in both cassette and CD. That s after I wore out my original cassette. Incredibly
                                Message 15 of 29 , Dec 27, 2007
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                                  Oh, my.  Couldn't disagree with you more.  I loved the ST and purchased it in both cassette and CD.  That's after I wore out my original cassette.  Incredibly good music for accompanying NordicTracking.  Still hear the ST music used on television news pieces related to the war.  To each his or her own, eh?  :)
                                   
                                  I did appreciate the scene in Glory which you've described.  Powerful music accompanied that film as well.
                                   
                                  Favorite CW flick may actually be Ride With the Devil.  I thought it got the border war right, so right in fact that watching the film, I could almost smell the earth and the prairie haunts of the Lawrence, St. Joe areas of KS/MO.
                                   
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2007 4:50 PM
                                  Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Civil War Movies (was Chickamauga -- the Movie)

                                  --- In civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com, "Ronald black" <rblack0981@ ...>
                                  wrote:


                                  the sound track was what i disliked most about gettysburg.
                                  it was overly loud and intrusive.
                                  it tried to hard to add drama to flat scenes and it overwhelmed them

                                  there is no scene in either g-burg or G&G that comes near the simple
                                  emotion and power of the pre-battle prayer scene when the men of
                                  the 54th are singing that spiritual and each in turn leading the
                                  prayers. and the look on andre braugher's face as he realized he
                                  knew nothing of the culture of his fellows.
                                  that scene alone was worth an oscar.

                                • raymondohara
                                  ... owners hate ... could ve sold ... Its amazing to ... destroyed his ... many movies that bomb in theaters do excellent in their second life in cable and
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Dec 27, 2007
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                                    --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, DORR64OVI@... wrote:
                                    > 4 hours with an intermission. Did he not realize that theater
                                    owners hate
                                    > extra long movies because for the length of time GAG ran, they
                                    could've sold
                                    > the theater twice. They couldn't get rid of GAG fast enough.
                                    Its amazing to
                                    > me that Ron Maxwell was the one guy making epic CW movies and he
                                    destroyed his
                                    > own franchise.
                                    >
                                    > Kent Dorr
                                    >

                                    many movies that bomb in theaters do excellent in their second life
                                    in cable and video.
                                    The kids movie '16 candles' is a case in point. it made nothing at
                                    the box office but it made millions in video rentals.
                                    G&G can't even do that. and yes, 4 hours is too long.
                                    it takes a truly great movie to go beyond 2.
                                  • raymondohara
                                    ... it got the border war right, so right in fact that watching the film, I could almost smell the earth and the prairie haunts of the Lawrence, St. Joe areas
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Dec 27, 2007
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                                      --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "ks" <ks@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Favorite CW flick may actually be Ride With the Devil. I thought
                                      it got the border war right, so right in fact that watching the
                                      film, I could almost smell the earth and the prairie haunts of the
                                      Lawrence, St. Joe areas of KS/MO.
                                      >

                                      black confederate alert. :)

                                      hollywood loves to exalt rebels of all stripes and ride with the
                                      devil is {to me}cliche' hollywood.
                                      confed guerillas tended to be more to the quantrill, bloody bill
                                      anderson , ruthless murderer types and not just good boys who are
                                      misunderstood PC fighting against the evil oppresive depriving them
                                      of their rights federal government.

                                      i find that whole cliche' offensive.

                                      my gr-gr-granddaddy and gr-gr-uncles who wore union blue weren't
                                      fighting to oppress anybody, they were fighting to save America and
                                      the freedoms we enjoy and to bring freedom to others,
                                      i know that is a cliche' too. but it meant something to them.
                                      and that means something to me.
                                    • Ricky Washburn
                                        ... From: raymondohara
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Dec 27, 2007
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                                        <em><font style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:#c00000;" face="Comic Sans MS" size="4"><font face="comic sans ms"></font></font></em> 



                                        ----- Original Message ----
                                        From: raymondohara <raymond-ohara@...>
                                        To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 3:33:01 AM
                                        Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Civil War Movies (was Chickamauga -- the Movie)

                                        --- In civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com, "ks" <ks@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Favorite CW flick may actually be Ride With the Devil. I thought
                                        it got the border war right, so right in fact that watching the
                                        film, I could almost smell the earth and the prairie haunts of the
                                        Lawrence, St. Joe areas of KS/MO.
                                        >

                                        black confederate alert. :)

                                        hollywood loves to exalt rebels of all stripes and ride with the
                                        devil is {to me}cliche' hollywood.
                                        confed guerillas tended to be more to the quantrill, bloody bill
                                        anderson , ruthless murderer types and not just good boys who are
                                        misunderstood PC fighting against the evil oppresive depriving them
                                        of their rights federal government.

                                        i find that whole cliche' offensive.

                                        my gr-gr-granddaddy and gr-gr-uncles who wore union blue weren't
                                        fighting to oppress anybody, they were fighting to save America and
                                        the freedoms we enjoy and to bring freedom to others,
                                        i know that is a cliche' too. but it meant something to them.
                                        and that means something to me.


                                        What other examples of these exaulted rebal movies of partisans do you know about? and werent many of these good ole boys continuing an ongoing violent war going on pre confedrate days, that saw excessive violence on both sides? how do you save America by killing Americans?


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                                      • Ricky Washburn
                                          Have you been to the CW
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Dec 27, 2007
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                                          <em><font style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:#c00000;" face="Comic Sans MS" size="4"><font face="comic sans ms"></font></font></em> 



                                          Have you been to the CW interprative center in Tupelo, I highly recommend it

                                          ----- Original Message ----
                                          From: "Sweetsstar@..." <Sweetsstar@...>
                                          To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 1:02:02 AM
                                          Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Civil War Movies (was Chickamauga -- the Movie)

                                          In a message dated 12/27/2007 1:00:18 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, raymond-ohara@ hotmail.com writes:
                                          make sure the ground rules are established so that all
                                          the kids are under the same restrictions. whether they are all to be
                                          curbed or allowed to run amuck. it must be the same for all.

                                          Considering I taught grade school for 34 years I am sorry but I cannot agree with you on this point. I can't tell you how many times in my travels I have wanted to go over to children allowed to run amuck at historical sites and talk to them about proper behavior. There is a happy medium between running amuck and not being allowed to leave mothers side. Proper respect for the place they are visiting should be taught. I have friends on various boards who talk about taking their kids to visit historical sites. I cannot see any of them allowing their kids to run amuck even if every other child was allowed to do that very thing. You might be wrong about those children that didn't leave their mother's side.

                                          My father took me to many places to visit. There were rules. I still remember the whap of the flag stick in the cemetery when I was a child helping my Dad ,an American Legionnaire place flags on graves for Memorial Day. I had been running around in the cemetery being really disrespectful to the men who were buried there. Daddy came up behind me as I was running in between the graves and gave me a lick with the flag in his hand . Now rest assured my father was not a child abuser in any way shape or form. He only spanked me five times in my life and each one was for a major reason. Two of them were in public for misbehaving , not following his rules.

                                          I don't think the children that ran amuck that day you observed learn anything about the place they were visiting . It was just another place to act out.

                                          Children need to be taught proper behavior.
                                          Susan


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                                        • raymondohara
                                          ... do you know about? and werent many of these good ole boys continuing an ongoing violent war going on pre confedrate days, that saw excessive violence on
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Dec 27, 2007
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                                            >
                                            >
                                            > What other examples of these exaulted rebal movies of partisans
                                            do you know about? and werent many of these good ole boys continuing
                                            an ongoing violent war going on pre confedrate days, that saw
                                            excessive violence on both sides? how do you save America by killing
                                            Americans?
                                            >
                                            >

                                            there are plenty such movies, a few randolph scott movies, an elvis
                                            movie.
                                            the ballad of tom dooley with michael landon.
                                            the outlaw josey wales with clint eastwood.
                                            to name just a few.

                                            and look at the war of 1861-65, that is how you save america by
                                            killing americans.
                                            they killed other americans who were trying to destroy the country.
                                            maybe you don't think united states was worth saving and the ideal
                                            of "property rights" of the rich as opposed to liberty for everybody.
                                            lincoln was out to preserve the union and uphold the constitution
                                            and laws, which was his sworn duty as president.
                                            secession was a violation of article VI of the united states
                                            constitution. it would have been remiss of abe to ignore that.
                                          • raymondohara
                                            ... size= 4   ... recommend it i missed that, i had to buy a tire in tupelo but as it was 95 degrees
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Dec 27, 2007
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                                              --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, Ricky Washburn <rwwiv@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > <em><font style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:#c00000;" face="Comic Sans MS"
                                              size="4"><font face="comic sans ms"></font></font></em> 
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Have you been to the CW interprative center in Tupelo, I highly
                                              recommend it

                                              i missed that, i had to buy a tire in tupelo but as it was 95 degrees
                                              without a cloud in the sky and the air was thick with diesel fumes
                                              from all the 18 wheelers passing through i got an instant headache on
                                              exiting the car so we didn't linger.
                                            • Ricky Washburn
                                              Josey Wales , if your counting movies like that then on the other side you have all the john wayne movies, shoot even the bugs bunny cartoons with ol sammity
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Dec 28, 2007
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                                                 'Josey Wales', if your counting movies like that then on the other side you have all the john wayne movies, shoot even the bugs bunny cartoons with ol sammity sam, put the south in not such a bright picture, eh? Do you think the common southern soldier was fighting for "property rights"
                                                <em><font style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:#c00000;" face="Comic Sans MS" size="4"><font face="comic sans ms"></font></font></em>&nbsp;


                                                ----- Original Message ----
                                                From: raymondohara <raymond-ohara@...>
                                                To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                                Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 10:11:44 AM
                                                Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Civil War Movies (was Chickamauga -- the Movie)

                                                >
                                                >
                                                > What other examples of these exaulted rebal movies of partisans

                                                do you know about? and werent many of these good ole boys continuing
                                                an ongoing violent war going on pre confedrate days, that saw
                                                excessive violence on both sides? how do you save America by killing
                                                Americans?
                                                >
                                                >

                                                there are plenty such movies, a few randolph scott movies, an elvis
                                                movie.
                                                the ballad of tom dooley with michael landon.
                                                the outlaw josey wales with clint eastwood.
                                                to name just a few.

                                                and look at the war of 1861-65, that is how you save america by
                                                killing americans.
                                                they killed other americans who were trying to destroy the country.
                                                maybe you don't think united states was worth saving and the ideal
                                                of "property rights" of the rich as opposed to liberty for everybody.
                                                lincoln was out to preserve the union and uphold the constitution
                                                and laws, which was his sworn duty as president.
                                                secession was a violation of article VI of the united states
                                                constitution. it would have been remiss of abe to ignore that.




                                                Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
                                              • Sweetsstar@aol.com
                                                Pat, Ride with the Devil is one of my favorite Civil War Movies also. It really does get the story of Missouri right . Jewel even does a good job. Susan
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Dec 28, 2007
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                                                  Pat, Ride with the Devil is one of my favorite Civil War Movies also.  It really does get the  story of Missouri right .  Jewel even does a good job. 
                                                   
                                                  Susan



                                                • Sweetsstar@aol.com
                                                  Have not been to Tupelo yet . I have been to Corinth. Loved it . Susan **************************************See AOL s top rated recipes
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Dec 28, 2007
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                                                    Have not been to Tupelo yet .  I have been to Corinth.  Loved it . 
                                                    Susan



                                                  • Ricky Washburn
                                                    i apologize, being here in iraq keeps me quite exausted, i had meant Corinth...it was a very entertaining place
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , Dec 28, 2007
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                                                      i apologize, being here in iraq keeps me quite exausted, i had meant Corinth...it was a very entertaining place
                                                      <em><font style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:#c00000;" face="Comic Sans MS" size="4"><font face="comic sans ms"></font></font></em> 



                                                      ----- Original Message ----
                                                      From: "Sweetsstar@..." <Sweetsstar@...>
                                                      To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                                      Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 11:22:56 AM
                                                      Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Civil War Movies (was Chickamauga -- the Movie)

                                                      Have not been to Tupelo yet . I have been to Corinth. Loved it .
                                                      Susan


                                                      ____________________________________________________________________________________
                                                      Be a better friend, newshound, and
                                                      know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
                                                    • raymondohara
                                                      ... side you have all the john wayne movies, shoot even the bugs bunny cartoons with ol sammity sam, put the south in not such a bright picture, eh? Do you
                                                      Message 26 of 29 , Dec 28, 2007
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                                                        --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, Ricky Washburn <rwwiv@...>
                                                        wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        > 'Josey Wales', if your counting movies like that then on the other
                                                        side you have all the john wayne movies, shoot even the bugs bunny
                                                        cartoons with ol sammity sam, put the south in not such a bright
                                                        picture, eh? Do you think the common southern soldier was fighting
                                                        for "property rights"
                                                        > <em><font style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:#c00000;" face="Comic Sans MS"
                                                        size="4"><font face="comic sans ms"></font></font></em> 
                                                        >

                                                        john wayne movies never put a happy face on civil war guerillas who
                                                        murdered civilians.
                                                        the horse soldiers is a recreation of grierson's raid. grierson
                                                        didn't rape loot or murder. he was an honorable soldiers.

                                                        well the south seceeded over "property rights" {we won't delve into
                                                        what type of property}
                                                        states rights was nothing to the average rebel private,
                                                        so what do you think they were fighting for?

                                                        and its yosemite sam not sammity sam.
                                                      • raymondohara
                                                        ... Corinth...it was a very entertaining place ... size= 4   ... okay, corinth is nice, visited battery
                                                        Message 27 of 29 , Dec 28, 2007
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                                                          --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, Ricky Washburn <rwwiv@...> wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          > i apologize, being here in iraq keeps me quite exausted, i had meant
                                                          Corinth...it was a very entertaining place
                                                          > <em><font style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:#c00000;" face="Comic Sans MS"
                                                          size="4"><font face="comic sans ms"></font></font></em> 
                                                          >

                                                          okay, corinth is nice, visited battery robinette and the visitor
                                                          center there.
                                                          it was the same 95 degree day i went through tupelo on. but earlier.
                                                        • Tom Mix
                                                          Agree 100% here, Ricky. Now be careful over there. Tom ... From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of raymondohara
                                                          Message 28 of 29 , Dec 28, 2007
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                                                            Agree 100% here, Ricky. Now be careful over there.

                                                            Tom

                                                             

                                                            -----Original Message-----
                                                            From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of raymondohara
                                                            Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 2:54 AM
                                                            To: civilwarwest@yahoogroupscom
                                                            Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Civil War Movies (was Chickamauga -- the Movie)

                                                             

                                                            --- In civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com, Ricky Washburn <rwwiv@...>
                                                            wrote:

                                                            >
                                                            > 'Josey Wales', if your counting movies like that then on the other
                                                            side you have all the john wayne movies, shoot even the bugs bunny
                                                            cartoons with ol sammity sam, put the south in not such a bright
                                                            picture, eh? Do you think the common southern soldier was fighting
                                                            for "property rights"
                                                            > <em><font style="BACKGROUND- COLOR:#c00000; "
                                                            face="Comic Sans MS"
                                                            size="4"><font face="comic sans ms"></font>< /font></em> &nbsp;
                                                            >

                                                            john wayne movies never put a happy face on civil war guerillas who
                                                            murdered civilians.
                                                            the horse soldiers is a recreation of grierson's raid. grierson
                                                            didn't rape loot or murder. he was an honorable soldiers.

                                                            well the south seceeded over "property rights" {we won't delve into
                                                            what type of property}
                                                            states rights was nothing to the average rebel private,
                                                            so what do you think they were fighting for?

                                                            and its yosemite sam not sammity sam.

                                                          • brainbent
                                                            ... other ... I had relatives that are directly traceable on both sides, so I can speak to this in a relatively unbiased manner. If you are stating that you
                                                            Message 29 of 29 , Dec 29, 2007
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                                                              --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "raymondohara" <raymond-
                                                              ohara@...> wrote:
                                                              >
                                                              > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, Ricky Washburn <rwwiv@>
                                                              > wrote:
                                                              > >
                                                              > > 'Josey Wales', if your counting movies like that then on the
                                                              other
                                                              > side you have all the john wayne movies, shoot even the bugs bunny
                                                              > cartoons with ol sammity sam, put the south in not such a bright
                                                              > picture, eh? Do you think the common southern soldier was fighting
                                                              > for "property rights"
                                                              > > <em><font style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:#c00000;" face="Comic Sans MS"
                                                              > size="4"><font face="comic sans ms"></font></font></em> 
                                                              > >
                                                              >
                                                              > john wayne movies never put a happy face on civil war guerillas who
                                                              > murdered civilians.
                                                              > the horse soldiers is a recreation of grierson's raid. grierson
                                                              > didn't rape loot or murder. he was an honorable soldiers.
                                                              >
                                                              > well the south seceeded over "property rights" {we won't delve into
                                                              > what type of property}
                                                              > states rights was nothing to the average rebel private,
                                                              > so what do you think they were fighting for?
                                                              >
                                                              > and its yosemite sam not sammity sam.
                                                              >
                                                              I had relatives that are directly traceable on both sides, so I can
                                                              speak to this in a relatively unbiased manner.

                                                              If you are stating that you think that the majority of soldiers of
                                                              the CSA were fighting for a rich mans's property, then you are
                                                              greatly misled. They were not fighting for that any more than they
                                                              were fighting for something as abstract as state's rights.

                                                              I would imagine most signed up for the excitement and adventure of
                                                              the experience and due to family/community pressure (everyone else
                                                              was signing up). Many remained fighting becaue, in their opinion,
                                                              their homeland was being invaded, burned and looted. They fought for
                                                              the man fighting next to them, probably from their home town or area.

                                                              My Southern relatives were dirt poor and neither owned property or
                                                              cared for those who did.

                                                              Most Northerners (including my relatives) didnt go to war in 1861-62
                                                              as abolitionist or ready to give their life for something as abstract
                                                              as The Union. Again, most young men probably saw it as a way to
                                                              escapte the farm, small town or menial labor that characterized their
                                                              life and go off on some grand adventure.

                                                              The great majority of both sides had no concept of the horrors that
                                                              lay ahead. Based on numerous accounts, when the shells and lead
                                                              start flying, noble concepts immediately become far less significant
                                                              than they once seemed.
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