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Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Re-joining the Union

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  • Steve Hall
    What is really strange is that the southern states were allowed, or really required, to ratify the 13th amendment, which is something that only states can do,
    Message 1 of 16 , Sep 23, 2007
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      What is really strange is that the southern states were allowed, or really required, to ratify the 13th amendment, which is something that only states can do, BEFORE they were "readmitted" to the union, but then, due to problems in getting the required number of votes, were NOT counted as states for the ratification of the 14th and 15th amendments.  I have never understood how they were counted as states for the 13th, but not for the 14th and 15th.  If they were states, as you stated below, then, sure, they could have ratified the 13th amendment and have been counted toward the total needed for ratification, but then how could it be that they were not counted as states for the other two "reconstruction" amendments? 
       
      Steve Hall - Commander
      Lt. Col. William Luffman Camp #938
      Sons of Confederate Veterans
      Chatsworth, Georgia
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2007 12:21 PM
      Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Re-joining the Union

      --- In civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com, "cashg79" <CashG79@... > wrote:
      >
      > The websites are wrong. The states never left the Union. They
      weren't
      > readmitted to the Union or to the United States. They were
      readmitted
      > to representation in Congress.
      >
      >

      A rose by anyother name .......

      Loss of "representation in Congress" would mean an inability to
      participate as a state in the life of the nation. If I were to lose my
      right to vote, I might still be a citizen but would not be a fully
      qualified one.

      James

    • Tim Lanzendörfer
      ... How so? The 14th Amendment was certified as part of the Constitution in 1868, after 28 states (of 36) had ratified it, including South and North Carolina,
      Message 2 of 16 , Sep 23, 2007
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        Steve Hall wrote:

        > What is really strange is that the southern states were allowed, or
        > really required, to ratify the 13th amendment, which is something that
        > only states can do, BEFORE they were "readmitted" to the union, but
        > then, due to problems in getting the required number of votes, were
        > NOT counted as states for the ratification of the 14th and 15th
        > amendments. I have never understood how they were counted as states
        > for the 13th, but not for the 14th and 15th. If they were states, as
        > you stated below, then, sure, they could have ratified the 13th
        > amendment and have been counted toward the total needed for
        > ratification, but then how could it be that they were not counted as
        > states for the other two "reconstruction" amendments?
        >










        How so? The 14th Amendment was certified as part of the Constitution in
        1868, after 28 states (of 36) had ratified it, including South and North
        Carolina, Florida, Arkansas, and Louisiana. The 15th Amendment was
        certified February 4rd, 1870, after 28 (of 37) had ratified it,
        including Georgia, Mississippi, Virginia, Arkansas, North and South
        Carolina, Louisiana, and Alabama. It seems to me that that's how it was
        supposed to be...


        From here:
        http://www.usconstitution.net/constamrat.html

        Tim
      • keeno2@aol.com
        In a message dated 9/23/2007 11:22:44 A.M. Central Daylight Time, JWD2044@h otmail.com writes: Loss of representation in Congress would mean an inability
        Message 3 of 16 , Sep 23, 2007
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          In a message dated 9/23/2007 11:22:44 A.M. Central Daylight Time, JWD2044@... writes:
          Loss of "representation in Congress" would mean an inability to participate as a state in the life of the nation.  If I were to lose my right to vote, I might still be a citizen but would not be a fully qualified one.
          Rejection of "representation in Congress" is a temporary thing and provided for in the Constitution. It is supposed mean that "this guy is not sitting here; send another." The language leaves room for abuse, and the rejection of certain representatives may well have been used beyond the spirit of the provision, but it seems to me that it was well within the letter.
           
          ken

           
           




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        • cashg79
          ... really required, to ratify the 13th amendment, which is something that only states can do, BEFORE they were readmitted to the union, but then, due to
          Message 4 of 16 , Sep 23, 2007
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            --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Hall" <Tunnelhill@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > What is really strange is that the southern states were allowed, or
            really required, to ratify the 13th amendment, which is something
            that only states can do, BEFORE they were "readmitted" to the union,
            but then, due to problems in getting the required number of votes,
            were NOT counted as states for the ratification of the 14th and 15th
            amendments. I have never understood how they were counted as states
            for the 13th, but not for the 14th and 15th. If they were states, as
            you stated below, then, sure, they could have ratified the 13th
            amendment and have been counted toward the total needed for
            ratification, but then how could it be that they were not counted as
            states for the other two "reconstruction" amendments?
            --------------

            Your understanding is not correct. The former confederate states
            were still counted as part of the Union for ratification of the 14th
            and 15th Amendments.

            Regards,
            Cash
          • cashg79
            ... No, it wouldn t. They still participated in presidential elections, they still participaated in the economy, they were still a part of the nation, and the
            Message 5 of 16 , Sep 23, 2007
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              --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "cashg79" <CashG79@> wrote:
              > >
              > > The websites are wrong. The states never left the Union. They
              > weren't
              > > readmitted to the Union or to the United States. They were
              > readmitted
              > > to representation in Congress.
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              > A rose by anyother name .......
              >
              > Loss of "representation in Congress" would mean an inability to
              > participate as a state in the life of the nation.
              ---------------

              No, it wouldn't. They still participated in presidential elections,
              they still participaated in the economy, they were still a part of
              the nation, and the government and the people kept track of events
              within those states. And when they met the conditions set down by the
              Congress their congressional delegations were readmitted and allowed
              to be seated.




              If I were to lose my
              > right to vote, I might still be a citizen but would not be a fully
              > qualified one.
              ------------------

              They still had the right to vote.

              Regards,
              Cash
            • Steve Hall
              Sorry, I misstated. I was not thinking straight, what I meant to say was that the Southern states voted to ratify the 13th amendment, but were the REQUIRED to
              Message 6 of 16 , Sep 24, 2007
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                Sorry, I misstated. 
                    I was not thinking straight, what I meant to say was that the Southern states voted to ratify the 13th amendment, but were the REQUIRED to ratify the 14th and 15th BEFORE they would be readmitted to the Union. 
                 
                Steve Hall - Commander
                Lt. Col. William Luffman Camp #938
                Sons of Confederate Veterans
                Chatsworth, Georgia
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: cashg79
                Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 1:33 AM
                Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Re-joining the Union

                --- In civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com, "Steve Hall" <Tunnelhill@ ...>
                wrote:
                >
                > What is really strange is that the southern states were allowed, or
                really required, to ratify the 13th amendment, which is something
                that only states can do, BEFORE they were "readmitted" to the union,
                but then, due to problems in getting the required number of votes,
                were NOT counted as states for the ratification of the 14th and 15th
                amendments. I have never understood how they were counted as states
                for the 13th, but not for the 14th and 15th. If they were states, as
                you stated below, then, sure, they could have ratified the 13th
                amendment and have been counted toward the total needed for
                ratification, but then how could it be that they were not counted as
                states for the other two "reconstruction" amendments?
                ------------ --

                Your understanding is not correct. The former confederate states
                were still counted as part of the Union for ratification of the 14th
                and 15th Amendments.

                Regards,
                Cash

              • cashg79
                ... Southern states voted to ratify the 13th amendment, but were the REQUIRED to ratify the 14th and 15th BEFORE they would be readmitted to the Union. ...
                Message 7 of 16 , Sep 24, 2007
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                  --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Hall" <Tunnelhill@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > Sorry, I misstated.
                  > I was not thinking straight, what I meant to say was that the
                  Southern states voted to ratify the 13th amendment, but were the
                  REQUIRED to ratify the 14th and 15th BEFORE they would be readmitted
                  to the Union.
                  >
                  -------------

                  Ratification of the 13th Amendment was part of the deal Andrew
                  Johnson made with the rebel states as part of Presidential
                  Reconstruction, though not a firm requirement, since Mississippi
                  didn't ratify it until 1995.

                  As part of Congressional Reconstruction, the Congress required
                  ratification of the 14th and 15th Amendments before the rebel states'
                  congressional delegations could be readmitted to Congress. The
                  states never left the Union, so they didn't need to be readmitted to
                  the Union.

                  Here's the text for Georgia's readmission:

                  http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?
                  collId=llsl&fileName=016/llsl016.db&recNum=398

                  Note it says nothing about readmission to the Union.

                  Here are some more:

                  http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?
                  collId=llsl&fileName=015/llsl015.db&recNum=105

                  http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?
                  collId=llsl&fileName=015/llsl015.db&recNum=106

                  http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?
                  collId=llsl&fileName=015/llsl015.db&recNum=107

                  Regards,
                  Cash
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